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81 posts found
  torn420

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/09/03
Posts: 48

6/16/13 8:31:05 PM#61
Originally posted by Cymdai



Crafting is, for all intensive purposes, going to be useless for nearly the entire game. 

Crafting is, for all intensive purposes
 for all intensive purposes
intensive purposes
  Laughing-man

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/23/09
Posts: 3378

I thought what I'd do is I'd pretend I was one of those Deaf-mutes.

6/17/13 5:26:06 AM#62
Originally posted by Avarix

This was my experience as well. I simply don't see the same game that people keep posting amazing things about. I think they played it far too safe with ARR. It feels like a game that I have already played umpteen times before. The kicker for me though was that the game doesn't focus on parties, at all. It's not just solo friendly, but actually rewarding to solo play. Needing a party (Reliance on others) to me was a staple of FFXI and something I can't get past with FFXIV: ARR.

So you want a game like FFXI, a game you enjoyed it looks like, yet don't want a 'been here done that' feeling.

I don't think you know what you want.

Every post you've made has been inaccurate or self conflicting.

  Pantheos

Novice Member

Joined: 6/13/09
Posts: 56

6/17/13 7:27:46 AM#63

I like how the example quest which has been defined as horrid is a TUTORIAL QUEST to teach people how to interact with their environment. It's a /tutorial quest/. Those are not ground breaking, those are quests to teach you how to go through the game. The entire initial city quests are all that, go kill this to learn how to fight, go pick this up for me, etc. Why does /anyone/ expect quests to somehow magically be different?

 

What can quests offer in a fixed game world? You can go get something, or you can kill something. Developers can try to hide that by either making you have to protect something (Still just killing things), or you have to craft it (still just getting something), or combine items or whatever. It's a limit of the MEDIUM not bad design or anything like that.

 

Lets see, how exactly are we going to affect the game world? Build a house? Ok. Thirty seven thousand other people on your server all need to build a house too. Where did the wilderness go?! Affect the game world? Sure ok, but then what happens to people who are on the same quest and what they need to do is already done? They just sit around with their thumb up their rear?

 

The whole concept of the 'sandbox' doesn't apply to a fixed world, the game just isn't big enough for that. It's not multiple systems of open space where you can throw down towers and bases and try and 'take control' with you and three thousand of your friends charging rent or whatever. Even SWG ended up getting crowded all to heck with player houses all over and harvesting equipment set up all over... yes, such a wild place, we live next door to a rancor pit cuz that's the only place left on the planet...

 

Honestly no, the game isn't ground breaking, what it /is/ however, is a very well done mmo with multiple options and a variety of game play options. As for why you'd need more gear... I guess in getting two classes to 30 the OP never noticed that gear has class restrictions. My marauder's gear I can't use on my lancer or my pugilist even though they're melee... so if I want to level those jobs, I /need new gear/. This is not rocket science. Also, crafting can make HQ gear, that alone is better than generic quest rewards so not counting anything else that is worth it right there.

  Avarix

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/22/12
Posts: 285

6/17/13 8:28:27 AM#64
Originally posted by Laughing-man
Originally posted by Avarix

This was my experience as well. I simply don't see the same game that people keep posting amazing things about. I think they played it far too safe with ARR. It feels like a game that I have already played umpteen times before. The kicker for me though was that the game doesn't focus on parties, at all. It's not just solo friendly, but actually rewarding to solo play. Needing a party (Reliance on others) to me was a staple of FFXI and something I can't get past with FFXIV: ARR.

So you want a game like FFXI, a game you enjoyed it looks like, yet don't want a 'been here done that' feeling.

I don't think you know what you want.

Every post you've made has been inaccurate or self conflicting.

I have only made a couple posts about this game (Maybe 3, you may be bored enough to go through my post history but I am not) and all of them are based on my actual experience in the beta. I know exactly what I want, and exactly what I don't want. The biggest deal-breaker for me continues to be the fact that you don't NEED other people in FFXIV: ARR. It can be played like a single-player RPG. I have no interest in games that are currently like this. We already have a handful of good MMORPGs that do this, I don't need another that only changes the skin to Final Fantasy. End-game may change this drastically but I am not certain about what end-game will or won't be, and neither are you so don't pretend to be.

 

Also, I have no problems with "been there done that" if it was based on a game that I loved. I would love to have that feeling based on Everquest (The original), or even Final Fantasy XI. This game however, has its roots planted in World of Warcraft, not Everquest or its predecessor. That feeling is then a negative, not a positive. I know your next line of defense will be that I am jaded or bitter. I am neither of these things. I simply don't care for this game, at all.

 

 

  Havekk

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/14/08
Posts: 1362

6/17/13 8:59:48 AM#65

Like others have already said.. the issue seems to be that you think you're playing a final product as opposed to a beta. You have to understand that in these betas, there are a lot of folks trying to burn through as much of the game as possible due to the short amount of time it's available. 

 

It honestly sounds like most of the issues you have are with MMO's in general lol

  Ralstlin

Novice Member

Joined: 1/09/10
Posts: 243

6/17/13 9:05:35 AM#66
Originally posted by Avarix
I have only made a couple posts about this game (Maybe 3, you may be bored enough to go through my post history but I am not) and all of them are based on my actual experience in the beta. I know exactly what I want, and exactly what I don't want. The biggest deal-breaker for me continues to be the fact that you don't NEED other people in FFXIV: ARR. It can be played like a single-player RPG. I have no interest in games that are currently like this. We already have a handful of good MMORPGs that do this, I don't need another that only changes the skin to Final Fantasy. End-game may change this drastically but I am not certain about what end-game will or won't be, and neither are you so don't pretend to be. 

Hmm u seems didnt play more than first lvls, is Imposible to level up not grouping for Dungeons, i mean, 1 dungeon run, give you aprox the same exp than 30 or 40 quests. So if you continue to play solo, is because u like to play solo. We have dungeons for grouping for this levels:

  • Sastasha Seagrot (Level 15 to 17)
  • Tam-Tara Deepcroft (Level 16 to 18)
  • Copperbell Mines (Level 17 to 19)
  • Halatali (Level 20 to 22)
  • Thousand Maws of Toto-rak (Level 23 to 25)
  • Haukke Manor (Level 29 to 31)
  • Brayflox's Longstop (Level 32 to 34)
What u are asking is to FORCE people to play grouping because you like group leveling (as me) but i prefer to allow every one to level up the way they want, i will continue leveling in group doing dungeons.
 
Oh wait and this too for Group content leveling:
 
  • Guildhests: Level 30 and below
  • Guildleves Dificult +4
  • PvP (Phase 4)
  • Fates (Form a party and hunt Fates)
So you point is totally false, stop spreading your hate because you dont like that people can leveling up soloing. The fact is that you like to level up in group and u are angry at people who can solo because you have less people to group with you, a totally self-centered egoist opinion.
  Nihilist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/08/04
Posts: 562

6/17/13 10:23:42 AM#67

I agree with the OP in a lot of ways.

The core of the actual gameplay is questing and killing mobs which is nothing special in ARR, but it never really promised to innovate much in these areas.

What ARR does well is create a visually impressive world with good music and decent writing that has the Final Fantasy feel.

It appeals to the players who enjoy traditional MMOs who simply enjoy moving through the world and building a character. They can accept the questing and combat as a means to an end, not the primary reason to play.

 

The success will probably be on the level of SWTOR, which means around 200-300k subs after the first few months. A decent enough audience, but it will probably have trouble retaining people who blow through the 1-50 content.

  Hyanmen

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/11/06
Posts: 4972

6/17/13 10:27:53 AM#68
Originally posted by Nihilist

The success will probably be on the level of SWTOR, which means around 200-300k subs after the first few months. A decent enough audience, but it will probably have trouble retaining people who blow through the 1-50 content.

You sure? I mean, SE has both the PS3 audience and the Japanese audience by their side. I'd estimate at least two times more subs for that reason alone.

FF:ARR FATE grinding: People not having fun by doing something not actually intended to get to a point that doesn't really matter as fast as possible. Just so they can do the same thing over and over again to gain a piece of virtual loot.

  saker

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/11/04
Posts: 892

Make a WORLD,
Not a Game.

6/17/13 10:34:14 AM#69

I agree with op posters top statement "While the game is incredibly polished and pristine in it's presentation, the depth of the game gave me cause for concern."
that summed it up. It kind of feels like old EQ, but without the strengths. It's got some vey fine graphics, but the actual gameplay, well it feels strongly of the dumbed-down console beginnings (imo). A few years ago might have done well, but much too late in MMO time for this, there are games with much more interesting game play out now, and a number of things on the near horizon.

  Nihilist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/08/04
Posts: 562

6/17/13 11:16:22 AM#70
Originally posted by Hyanmen
Originally posted by Nihilist

The success will probably be on the level of SWTOR, which means around 200-300k subs after the first few months. A decent enough audience, but it will probably have trouble retaining people who blow through the 1-50 content.

You sure? I mean, SE has both the PS3 audience and the Japanese audience by their side. I'd estimate at least two times more subs for that reason alone.

I think that is realistic 2-3+ months out in NA. ARR is releasing in an MMO lull which is to its advantage and will have a loyal following but there isn't enough innovation here to branch out to a broader audience. I haven't really seen any evidence that this will perform better than SWTOR beyond the addition of console sales which I doubt will many of which will become long term subs.

SWTOR and Rift which are nearly identical to ARR in terms of gameplay are also free-to-play.

 

The real question is how well ARR will compete with Wildstar, ArcheAge and ESO all of which bring a lot of innovation to the main areas that ARR lacks: combat and questing.

  BadSpock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7699

Logic be damned!

6/17/13 11:35:34 AM#71
Originally posted by Nihilist

I think that is realistic 2-3+ months out in NA. ARR is releasing in an MMO lull which is to its advantage and will have a loyal following but there isn't enough innovation here to branch out to a broader audience. I haven't really seen any evidence that this will perform better than SWTOR beyond the addition of console sales which I doubt will many of which will become long term subs.

SWTOR and Rift which are nearly identical to ARR in terms of gameplay are also free-to-play.

The real question is how well ARR will compete with Wildstar, ArcheAge and ESO all of which bring a lot of innovation to the main areas that ARR lacks: combat and questing.

Wait, ArcheAge is innovating combat and questing?

When did this happen?

From what we've seen of ESO - it's going to be the one to beat for sure, but the questing content doesn't appear to be any different than a game like TOR or like questing was in Skyrim. The "action" combat isn't going to be for everyone - lots of people hated the combat in Skyrim - and what I've seen of ESO looks like a slower/sloppier version of Skyrim combat.

Wildstar is certainly innovating in the 4 path approach on paper at least, but thus far all we've seen suggests that each path is going to play out exactly like every MMO that came before it - and they are DIRECTLY copying the look, pacing, and feel of WoW - which has yet to be a successful tactic. Telegraphed moves are a gimmick. Games based on a gimmick have NEVER worked out well in the long run.

Wildstar is looking very safe in the innovation department - looks like each path will just offer different types of the same old quests.

Is ARR innovative and different? Not so much - but don't sleep on the FF IP and the power of marketing and how successful the game could be.

FFXI was a mega-hit for SE. Millions of accounts at its peak.

The FF name alone sells millions of boxes. Even with all the bad press, millions of copies of FFXIII-2 were sold, enough they're making a 3rd installment!

You know what other game wasn't all to innovative? WoW.

You know what retains players and builds a brand and is successful over the long run?

Fundamentals. The fundamental gameplay systems, how well they work together and how polished and complete the initial vision for the game is.

That is what made WoW a success, what made AoC and WAR and Rift and TOR and countless others falter and fail, and the fundamentals of gameplay is what has grown and expanded the success of EvE, EQ1, FFXI, the Lineage series, and the rest of the true MMO success stories.

Does FFXIV have the fundamentals down on their 2nd attempt?

We shall see...

Now Playing:
Looking Towards: Destiny

  Murugan

Novice Member

Joined: 4/18/08
Posts: 1567

6/17/13 11:50:02 AM#72

SWTOR had a huge exodus because of the issues in the game, not because it was "insert buzzword arguments like "themepark"'

 

You leveled up your first class for the story, maybe even a couple.  Then you tried to go do endgame only to find it was RIDDLED with issues, and the content that was there was extremely limited.  They banked on people leveling ALTs for months, maybe even years on end. But most people in an MMO want to do things as the class(es) they enjoy most, and there just wasn't enough for them to do so they quit and went to other games.

 

Anyone who disagrees with that are you going to sit here and tell me that SWTOR was not plagued with launch issues, and that WAS NOT the reason given by people who quit early on?  The game sold boxes to millions of people who knew what kind of product they were getting, Bioware just didn't deliver as an MMO developer.  Many don't, that's why they fail and have people leaving in droves once they play through the limited content available.

 

To justify a subscription you have to give people content to continually enjoy, this seems to be lost on a lot of studios today and that is why we see most of them simply giving up and opting instead to sell B2P games or just offer a free "game" where they can sell people virtual junk instead of trying to retain subscribers through compelling and continuous entertainment.

http://xivpads.com/?1595680
http://guildwork.com/users/murugan

  ego13

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/24/04
Posts: 287

Hell is other people. - Sartre

6/17/13 11:54:33 AM#73

I'm amazed, Cym, that you didn't see the depth and complexity offered by the jobs system and the fact that you need all those quests to effectively level multiple jobs.  It seems to be glossed over a couple times by other posters but, imo, this is one of the biggest strengths of the game; why reroll when you can just level up every job and tailor ONE character to fit the role you're needing/wanting?

Is this new and/or revolutionary?  Mostly, yes.

 

There are other games that offer a portion of this but don't give you anywhere near the flexibility or options of ARR.  Simplifying it so you don't have to clutter up your inventory with multiple gear sets, being able to use cross-class skills, even just the ability to not have to have your main, main alt, secondary alt, tertiary alt, etc..

 

Yes, there are a lot of quests and a lot of them are simplistic, quick, and clumped.  If you just burn through all of them you also are shooting yourself in the foot when you level up a new job.  So it adds another little meta-game to balance out what you need now vs what you'll need later.

 

 

Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.

  ego13

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/24/04
Posts: 287

Hell is other people. - Sartre

6/17/13 11:57:01 AM#74
Originally posted by Murugan

SWTOR had a huge exodus because of the issues in the game, not because it was "insert buzzword arguments like "themepark"'

 

You leveled up your first class for the story, maybe even a couple.  Then you tried to go do endgame only to find it was RIDDLED with issues, and the content that was there was extremely limited.  They banked on people leveling ALTs for months, maybe even years on end. But most people in an MMO want to do things as the class(es) they enjoy most, and there just wasn't enough for them to do so they quit and went to other games.

 

Anyone who disagrees with that are you going to sit here and tell me that SWTOR was not plagued with launch issues, and that WAS NOT the reason given by people who quit early on?  The game sold boxes to millions of people who knew what kind of product they were getting, Bioware just didn't deliver as an MMO developer.  Many don't, that's why they fail and have people leaving in droves once they play through the limited content available.

 

To justify a subscription you have to give people content to continually enjoy, this seems to be lost on a lot of studios today and that is why we see most of them simply giving up and opting instead to sell B2P games or just offer a free "game" where they can sell people virtual junk instead of trying to retain subscribers through compelling and continuous entertainment.

You're missing one HUGE flaw in the game that caused a bigger issue.  It's NOT AN MMO.  It's a single player RPG that has to be always connected to the internet.  The game is linear that rivals even most offline single player games. 

Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.

  BadSpock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7699

Logic be damned!

6/17/13 1:52:48 PM#75
Originally posted by Cirin

There are other games that offer a portion of this but don't give you anywhere near the flexibility or options of ARR.  Simplifying it so you don't have to clutter up your inventory with multiple gear sets, being able to use cross-class skills, even just the ability to not have to have your main, main alt, secondary alt, tertiary alt, etc..

I really, really like the whole 12.99 for one character per server account, 14.99 for multiple idea.

Value! Savings!

Now Playing:
Looking Towards: Destiny

  Murugan

Novice Member

Joined: 4/18/08
Posts: 1567

6/17/13 2:18:16 PM#76
Originally posted by Cirin
Originally posted by Murugan

SWTOR had a huge exodus because of the issues in the game, not because it was "insert buzzword arguments like "themepark"'

 

You leveled up your first class for the story, maybe even a couple.  Then you tried to go do endgame only to find it was RIDDLED with issues, and the content that was there was extremely limited.  They banked on people leveling ALTs for months, maybe even years on end. But most people in an MMO want to do things as the class(es) they enjoy most, and there just wasn't enough for them to do so they quit and went to other games.

 

Anyone who disagrees with that are you going to sit here and tell me that SWTOR was not plagued with launch issues, and that WAS NOT the reason given by people who quit early on?  The game sold boxes to millions of people who knew what kind of product they were getting, Bioware just didn't deliver as an MMO developer.  Many don't, that's why they fail and have people leaving in droves once they play through the limited content available.

 

To justify a subscription you have to give people content to continually enjoy, this seems to be lost on a lot of studios today and that is why we see most of them simply giving up and opting instead to sell B2P games or just offer a free "game" where they can sell people virtual junk instead of trying to retain subscribers through compelling and continuous entertainment.

You're missing one HUGE flaw in the game that caused a bigger issue.  It's NOT AN MMO.  It's a single player RPG that has to be always connected to the internet.  The game is linear that rivals even most offline single player games. 

It did have group content and even raids, they just weren't implemented very well.  Being linear aside, that doesn't matter it was still an MMO because it had a persistant world in which you could play with thousands of other people.  It may have felt that way to you and that is a valid opinion, but the fact is that it did have group elements and them not being very good (though there wasn't anything for people to do solo either other than level another alt character abandoning all their progression and thus the investment needed to warrant a subscription) is what led to people leaving the game.

http://xivpads.com/?1595680
http://guildwork.com/users/murugan

  Nihilist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/08/04
Posts: 562

6/17/13 2:39:52 PM#77
Originally posted by BadSpock

Is ARR innovative and different? Not so much - but don't sleep on the FF IP and the power of marketing and how successful the game could be.

FFXI was a mega-hit for SE. Millions of accounts at its peak.

The FF name alone sells millions of boxes. Even with all the bad press, millions of copies of FFXIII-2 were sold, enough they're making a 3rd installment!

You know what other game wasn't all to innovative? WoW.

You know what retains players and builds a brand and is successful over the long run?

Fundamentals. The fundamental gameplay systems, how well they work together and how polished and complete the initial vision for the game is.

That is what made WoW a success, what made AoC and WAR and Rift and TOR and countless others falter and fail, and the fundamentals of gameplay is what has grown and expanded the success of EvE, EQ1, FFXI, the Lineage series, and the rest of the true MMO success stories.

Does FFXIV have the fundamentals down on their 2nd attempt?

We shall see...

I am not doubting ARR will sell a lot of boxes, although the game flopped once and a lot of people are getting it for free. I don't really consider box sales to be a good indicator of how good an MMO is.

WoW did innovate by creating the modern quest grind and allowing people to progress much faster by going from hub to hub. This concept did not really exist in EQ or DAOC which did not have many quests and a lot of the time required groups to simply farm mob camps for hours in order to level.

I agree in regards to fundamentals and think they are good enough to retain a playerbase, but I cannot see it performing much better than any of the other recent theme park games after the first 3 months precisely because it has very little innovation besides allowing people to level up multiple classes on 1 character which will probably become tiresome after 2 or 3 times.

  Alberel

Novice Member

Joined: 12/02/09
Posts: 1121

6/17/13 3:18:30 PM#78
Originally posted by Nihilist
Originally posted by BadSpock

Is ARR innovative and different? Not so much - but don't sleep on the FF IP and the power of marketing and how successful the game could be.

FFXI was a mega-hit for SE. Millions of accounts at its peak.

The FF name alone sells millions of boxes. Even with all the bad press, millions of copies of FFXIII-2 were sold, enough they're making a 3rd installment!

You know what other game wasn't all to innovative? WoW.

You know what retains players and builds a brand and is successful over the long run?

Fundamentals. The fundamental gameplay systems, how well they work together and how polished and complete the initial vision for the game is.

That is what made WoW a success, what made AoC and WAR and Rift and TOR and countless others falter and fail, and the fundamentals of gameplay is what has grown and expanded the success of EvE, EQ1, FFXI, the Lineage series, and the rest of the true MMO success stories.

Does FFXIV have the fundamentals down on their 2nd attempt?

We shall see...

I am not doubting ARR will sell a lot of boxes, although the game flopped once and a lot of people are getting it for free. I don't really consider box sales to be a good indicator of how good an MMO is.

WoW did innovate by creating the modern quest grind and allowing people to progress much faster by going from hub to hub. This concept did not really exist in EQ or DAOC which did not have many quests and a lot of the time required groups to simply farm mob camps for hours in order to level.

I agree in regards to fundamentals and think they are good enough to retain a playerbase, but I cannot see it performing much better than any of the other recent theme park games after the first 3 months precisely because it has very little innovation besides allowing people to level up multiple classes on 1 character which will probably become tiresome after 2 or 3 times.

It wasn't tiresome to level all the jobs in XI... You aren't just leveling them for the sake of it either, the more classes you level the more skills you have access to and the more versatile you become. You need to stop thinking from the mindset of single-class games. The effective combat level cap in ARR is 400... Having all classes maxed WILL make you more effective than someone with only one class maxed. That potential for long-term progression will be quite an effective carrot.

Don't underestimate the strength of immersion, social features and secondary game systems to keep people enthralled as well. Far too many people reduce MMOs to only combat and think that's all that matters. Many people burn out on MMOs because there's usually only one thing to do: kill kill and kill some more. FFXIV has a LOT on offer besides combat which will help alleviate people burning out.

  Nihilist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/08/04
Posts: 562

6/17/13 3:41:38 PM#79

True there is more of a point to leveling classes by making your character more diverse / optimized, but just like any other game you go back to level 1 and have to repeat the earlier content over and over.

It also is seemingly possible to use-up all of the early level quests making it even more difficult to level up alt classes meaning it seems like people might be required to straight up grind on fates or mobs.

  striderbob

Novice Member

Joined: 5/02/10
Posts: 177

6/17/13 3:45:46 PM#80
Originally posted by Nihilist

True there is more of a point to leveling classes by making your character more diverse / optimized, but just like any other game you go back to level 1 and have to repeat the earlier content over and over.

It also is seemingly possible to use-up all of the early level quests making it even more difficult to level up alt classes meaning it seems like people might be required to straight up grind on fates or mobs.

Yes once you finish a quest you can't do it again on a different class. But you have class quests, PvP (when its implemented), FATES, guildhests, leves, grinding, hunting log, and dungeons to level off of.

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