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Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn Forum » General Discussion » Is a community all that important?

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42 posts found
  KingAlkaiser

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/12/12
Posts: 54

5/04/13 6:58:38 PM#21
Originally posted by simmihi
Originally posted by c0exist
For me the community is what keeps me playing an online game.  Since FFXI I have yet to find a great community in a game.  I personally think what made the community so great was that everything in that game required a few friends to accomplish.  You could not be a loner in that game or else you wouldnt get far. You helped others and asked for help in return to accomplish a common goal.   In todays mmo you need to complete a group quest or dungeon you enter the dungeon finder or some sort of queue to autopopulate a party.  This is great, the problem is most of these people you group with are not on your server and you will never see them again.  I hope ARR goes back to the basics of what made FFXI so great and kept me coming back for the 5 years I played it, the dynamic grouping system.

It's not the dungeon finder. It's the bad game design.

It starts with the extremely short leveling experience. Games are made so people can rush to the top in a week. A rich player can raise an alt in a few days in GW2. In Neverwinter, someone hit max level after 2 days, and this one is in Beta!

It continues with the bad design of group quests and group areas - for example, in SWTOR (one of the few games left which still has a massive amount of group quests) to help a lowbie on a group quest, I'd have to spend around 20 minutes and lots of currency traveling back and forth. The game encourages me to be lazy.

It ends at the "endgame". You can hardly create a community here because the developers are usually totally uninspired and consider that "character development at endgame" = "loot". Sure, loot plays an important role. but when you design a game around loot, the ones who'll stick around are the loot addicts.

What kind of player could be attracted by what i wrote above? The guy who waits to devour the next content update in order to get the new "phat loot". So it ends up looking like this: new content update, high activity for one month. It gets old really fast and a period of 3 months of inactivity (combined with people leaving the game) comes. You cannot create a community. There's no foundation.

My own example speaks loud all those things I've wrote. I have joined SWTOR one month ago. In one month I was able to raise a char to max level, get the expansion, raise the char to the new level cap, get good gear  - not the best gear, but good enough to see all the endgame content, some even on hard mode. I feel I've "seen" and "done" everything. I've did all that playing no more than 2 hours per day, maybe a bit more in some weekends. What could i do now is farm some really tedious stuff for 3-4 months in order to improve my gear with 10% (improvement which i don't feel i need). When everything is so rushed, i won't be around enough in order to be part of a community. On the other hand, it took me one year and a half to reach max level in Anarchy Online, and i was younger then and had a lot more time.

i agree with this statement 100% games today all focus on "skill less rewards" or "instant gratification" which kills a mmorpg.  Not to mention ability to solo quest spam from 1 to cap and no grouping creates a crappy community I also miss ff11 and have yet to play a mmorpg besides old everquest or ultima with similar community.

  ClockworkSmiles

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/16/13
Posts: 15

5/04/13 7:15:49 PM#22
Originally posted by c0exist
For me the community is what keeps me playing an online game.  Since FFXI I have yet to find a great community in a game.  I personally think what made the community so great was that everything in that game required a few friends to accomplish.  You could not be a loner in that game or else you wouldnt get far. You helped others and asked for help in return to accomplish a common goal.   In todays mmo you need to complete a group quest or dungeon you enter the dungeon finder or some sort of queue to autopopulate a party.  This is great, the problem is most of these people you group with are not on your server and you will never see them again.  I hope ARR goes back to the basics of what made FFXI so great and kept me coming back for the 5 years I played it, the dynamic grouping system.

I think some of the NDA has been lifted so I think I can say this...

FFXIV is pretty much WoW with a Final Fantasy skin and what feels like Rift combat from playing my Archer, though that could just be the Archer that feels crappy and not the other jobs/classes. I miss the pre-shutdown combat so much bcause it felt so good to play, I just wish they would have tweaked it a bit for the new version.

 

I will play it because I'm a FF fan and I believe that a game that gets rebuilt from scratch instead of going F2P is a very good thing and should be supported, but personally I liked pre-shutdown FFXIV better than what I've played of the new version, and the pre-shutdown version game me a reason to group while this one I mostly just quested solo.

 

I wish they would try to remake a FFXI type of MMO, but it is very unlikely for a long while because casuals are the new target audience for MMO's and not the real MMO gamers like it was back then.
  drivendawn

Elite Member

Joined: 4/17/11
Posts: 857

5/04/13 7:43:00 PM#23
Originally posted by ClockworkSmiles
Originally posted by c0exist
For me the community is what keeps me playing an online game.  Since FFXI I have yet to find a great community in a game.  I personally think what made the community so great was that everything in that game required a few friends to accomplish.  You could not be a loner in that game or else you wouldnt get far. You helped others and asked for help in return to accomplish a common goal.   In todays mmo you need to complete a group quest or dungeon you enter the dungeon finder or some sort of queue to autopopulate a party.  This is great, the problem is most of these people you group with are not on your server and you will never see them again.  I hope ARR goes back to the basics of what made FFXI so great and kept me coming back for the 5 years I played it, the dynamic grouping system.

I think some of the NDA has been lifted so I think I can say this...

FFXIV is pretty much WoW with a Final Fantasy skin and what feels like Rift combat from playing my Archer, though that could just be the Archer that feels crappy and not the other jobs/classes. I miss the pre-shutdown combat so much bcause it felt so good to play, I just wish they would have tweaked it a bit for the new version.

 

I will play it because I'm a FF fan and I believe that a game that gets rebuilt from scratch instead of going F2P is a very good thing and should be supported, but personally I liked pre-shutdown FFXIV better than what I've played of the new version, and the pre-shutdown version game me a reason to group while this one I mostly just quested solo.

 

I wish they would try to remake a FFXI type of MMO, but it is very unlikely for a long while because casuals are the new target audience for MMO's and not the real MMO gamers like it was back then.

LOL, WoW skin what ever man. If you ask me I would say its a mixture of good ideas from a number of mmorpg's Including plenty of FF ideas. I think over all it's much better than the previous iteration.

  Br3akingDawn

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/01/11
Posts: 1284

5/04/13 8:38:36 PM#24
Wouldnt had stick with XI that long if the community wasn't that great.

  GodEmperorWAAAGH

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/04/13
Posts: 19

5/04/13 8:46:29 PM#25
Originally posted by drivendawn
Originally posted by ClockworkSmiles
Originally posted by c0exist
For me the community is what keeps me playing an online game.  Since FFXI I have yet to find a great community in a game.  I personally think what made the community so great was that everything in that game required a few friends to accomplish.  You could not be a loner in that game or else you wouldnt get far. You helped others and asked for help in return to accomplish a common goal.   In todays mmo you need to complete a group quest or dungeon you enter the dungeon finder or some sort of queue to autopopulate a party.  This is great, the problem is most of these people you group with are not on your server and you will never see them again.  I hope ARR goes back to the basics of what made FFXI so great and kept me coming back for the 5 years I played it, the dynamic grouping system.

I think some of the NDA has been lifted so I think I can say this...

FFXIV is pretty much WoW with a Final Fantasy skin and what feels like Rift combat from playing my Archer, though that could just be the Archer that feels crappy and not the other jobs/classes. I miss the pre-shutdown combat so much bcause it felt so good to play, I just wish they would have tweaked it a bit for the new version.

 

I will play it because I'm a FF fan and I believe that a game that gets rebuilt from scratch instead of going F2P is a very good thing and should be supported, but personally I liked pre-shutdown FFXIV better than what I've played of the new version, and the pre-shutdown version game me a reason to group while this one I mostly just quested solo.

 

I wish they would try to remake a FFXI type of MMO, but it is very unlikely for a long while because casuals are the new target audience for MMO's and not the real MMO gamers like it was back then.

LOL, WoW skin what ever man. If you ask me I would say its a mixture of good ideas from a number of mmorpg's Including plenty of FF ideas. I think over all it's much better than the previous iteration.

That's what they always say about the WoW clones. Guess you don't have the perspective needed to see whats what?


A reader lives a thousand lives, the man who never reads lives only one.

  drivendawn

Elite Member

Joined: 4/17/11
Posts: 857

5/04/13 9:17:08 PM#26
Originally posted by GodEmperorWAAAGH
Originally posted by drivendawn
Originally posted by ClockworkSmiles
Originally posted by c0exist
For me the community is what keeps me playing an online game.  Since FFXI I have yet to find a great community in a game.  I personally think what made the community so great was that everything in that game required a few friends to accomplish.  You could not be a loner in that game or else you wouldnt get far. You helped others and asked for help in return to accomplish a common goal.   In todays mmo you need to complete a group quest or dungeon you enter the dungeon finder or some sort of queue to autopopulate a party.  This is great, the problem is most of these people you group with are not on your server and you will never see them again.  I hope ARR goes back to the basics of what made FFXI so great and kept me coming back for the 5 years I played it, the dynamic grouping system.

I think some of the NDA has been lifted so I think I can say this...

FFXIV is pretty much WoW with a Final Fantasy skin and what feels like Rift combat from playing my Archer, though that could just be the Archer that feels crappy and not the other jobs/classes. I miss the pre-shutdown combat so much bcause it felt so good to play, I just wish they would have tweaked it a bit for the new version.

 

I will play it because I'm a FF fan and I believe that a game that gets rebuilt from scratch instead of going F2P is a very good thing and should be supported, but personally I liked pre-shutdown FFXIV better than what I've played of the new version, and the pre-shutdown version game me a reason to group while this one I mostly just quested solo.

 

I wish they would try to remake a FFXI type of MMO, but it is very unlikely for a long while because casuals are the new target audience for MMO's and not the real MMO gamers like it was back then.

LOL, WoW skin what ever man. If you ask me I would say its a mixture of good ideas from a number of mmorpg's Including plenty of FF ideas. I think over all it's much better than the previous iteration.

That's what they always say about the WoW clones. Guess you don't have the perspective needed to see whats what?

I guess I don't you toldly discredited me with this post. >.>

  KingAlkaiser

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/12/12
Posts: 54

5/05/13 3:40:09 AM#27

if they took "ideas" and inspiration from their own games and the overall experience from running a mmorpg for so many years and made thier own product they would be making good money and having loyal customers.

 

I for one would like to agree with what has been stated, I am so sick and tired of mmorpg WoW rehashing and extremely over casualizing and dumb-ing down every single game release nowadays.  they treat us as if we have ADD and require immidiate  effortless instant gratifications to make us play games.

 

the majority of people who hate to argue over this topic are the same casual gamers who play mmorpg for 1-3 months solo everything and move on to the next thing rinsing and repeating.

 

no community= no MMO part of the RPG, whats is the point of playing online rpg if you want to solo everything and "be expected" to be rewarded similar to people who work hard.  FF11 had one of the best communities I have seen, as soon as i started i felt the game alive and was on a epic adventure.  The people were forced to socialize as if you were bad players people would remember you and vice versa if you were good.  Cooperative gameplay also made the game challenging and fun, i loved to xp pt in ff11 as much as people seem to believe to think they did.

 

I also loved I WAS NEVER......ever pressured to just "bum rush" all out just to reach endgame or cap as there was a ton fo stuff to do almost a all levels of the game.

 

I am still mad over the power leveling issues on the game in 1.0 and how they allowed more than half of the servers to AFK and get hand holded by level 50 player all the way to cap within 1 day or less.

 

Any news on the ease of leveling? or if power leveling still allowed? a level 1 player should never have been able to gain "experience points" without any interaction or experience in their part lol.

 

I miss ff11 pre-abyssea if only they didn't easy mode ff11, they needed to do stuff for lack of players but they went extremely overboard.

  c0exist

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/13/13
Posts: 185

 
OP  5/05/13 2:01:21 PM#28
Yeah it doesnt take much, increase the hp of the mob and decrease the amount of exp given.  Or at the very least give us a hard mode server that acts and feels like FFXI with harder mobs and decreased leveling speeds.  I for one think the end game content should be a "right" to gain access to.  In FFXI you put countless months of effort just to scratch the surface of high level content.  But you know what?  Nobody cared because the game was rewarding along the way.  Nowadays, if you have a free weekend you are max so the end game just becomes 'the game."  So to appeal to both types of players give us harder leveling on a select server with more rewarding items and select end game content only accessible from that server.  That way casual and hardcore can both play.
  Ridelynn

Elite Member

Joined: 12/19/10
Posts: 3303

5/05/13 2:07:33 PM#29


Is a community all that important

I would say it's as, or more, important than any other element. People may try out a game for it's graphics, or stick around long enough to get through the main story, or play for a bit because the gameplay is good, but no one will stick around for long if the community isn't there. Community is what creates longevity and loyalty in MMOs - not disposable content, not daily quests, not exaggerated artificial time sinks.

  redcapp

Novice Member

Joined: 5/13/11
Posts: 733

5/05/13 11:49:42 PM#30
I would go so far as to say that the community is more important than any actual gameplay element or the game itself.  Unless said game is just complete, utter garbage.
  grndzro

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/21/06
Posts: 1092

5/13/13 1:51:22 AM#31

If FFXIV isn't group oriented like FFXI then I certainly won't bother reactivating.

I want FFXI 2.0.......not a wow clone with a Final Fantasy skin.

  Magiknight

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/10/09
Posts: 704

5/13/13 1:54:06 AM#32

I like the OP

 

Edit: I'm also insane.

  Yaevindusk

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/05/10
Posts: 1126

Logic, reason and fact do not supersede human nature. Ignorance reigns without justice.

5/13/13 1:55:44 AM#33
Originally posted by grndzro

If FFXIV isn't group oriented like FFXI then I certainly won't bother reactivating.

I want FFXI 2.0.......not a wow clone with a Final Fantasy skin.

 

It depends on what you consider to be group oriented.  In today's age, it would be folly for them to ignore the solo oriented players, especially since they are incurring the costs of remaking the entire game and want to make that money back.  Though that does not mean that systems won't be in that require groups.  These don't even have to be dungeons or raids, but systems that they create in addition to those and side quests / leves that will probably be solo based (as they were in XIV save for the fact leves were more efficient if you had a group towards the beginning of the game).

 

Just seek out those systems and forget about any commonly accepted solo paths that may or may not be in the game.

When faced with strife or discontent, the true nature of a man is brought forth. It is then when we see the character of the individual. It is then we are able to tell if he is mature enough to grin and bare it, or subject his fellow man to his complaints and woes.

  DamonVile

Elite Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4316

5/13/13 2:15:29 AM#34
Originally posted by Yaevindusk

 

  In today's age, it would be folly for them to ignore the solo oriented players, especially since they are incurring the costs of remaking the entire game and want to make that money back. 

People say that but how do we really know ? Maybe the game that gets developed brings in all the people who actually miss the old school mmos that had a point as far a groups go, and this game ends up with a stable population of players instead of catering to the mmo sampler that always seems to move on and leaves developers in a panic 2-3 months in.

It seems that always catering to the solo players has only left them an empty shell with 0 community and nothing really going on after the new game rush moves on.

People are like cats. When they die, you get a new one.

  grndzro

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/21/06
Posts: 1092

5/13/13 2:19:05 AM#35
Originally posted by Yaevindusk
Originally posted by grndzro

If FFXIV isn't group oriented like FFXI then I certainly won't bother reactivating.

I want FFXI 2.0.......not a wow clone with a Final Fantasy skin.

 

It depends on what you consider to be group oriented.  In today's age, it would be folly for them to ignore the solo oriented players, especially since they are incurring the costs of remaking the entire game and want to make that money back.  Though that does not mean that systems won't be in that require groups.  These don't even have to be dungeons or raids, but systems that they create in addition to those and side quests / leves that will probably be solo based (as they were in XIV save for the fact leves were more efficient if you had a group towards the beginning of the game).

 

Just seek out those systems and forget about any commonly accepted solo paths that may or may not be in the game.

You cant please both groups. this game's fanbase hails from FFXI. which quite clearly puts it in the Group oriented crowd.

  Yaevindusk

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/05/10
Posts: 1126

Logic, reason and fact do not supersede human nature. Ignorance reigns without justice.

5/13/13 3:54:04 AM#36
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by Yaevindusk

 

  In today's age, it would be folly for them to ignore the solo oriented players, especially since they are incurring the costs of remaking the entire game and want to make that money back. 

People say that but how do we really know ? Maybe the game that gets developed brings in all the people who actually miss the old school mmos that had a point as far a groups go, and this game ends up with a stable population of players instead of catering to the mmo sampler that always seems to move on and leaves developers in a panic 2-3 months in.

It seems that always catering to the solo players has only left them an empty shell with 0 community and nothing really going on after the new game rush moves on.

 

I wouldn't mind if a game was more about communities and grouping than anything else.  Maybe we'll actually differ from just plain single player games with online capabilities in that regard.  But with A Realm Reborn specifically, it would just be bad to "take that chance" and ignore the solo content when they have been paying massive amounts of money rebuilding the game from scratch after people tore it a new one.  It deserved the score it got, and they've admitted that time and again, but taking chances when they're already hurting due to poor sales (when compared to what they expected) of Tomb Raider and Sleeping Dogs (even if they were released after development of ARR started, it just reinforces what to work on thenceforth) by focusing only on the unknown would be a huge gamble.

 

It's a sad thing that many don't read or look up context when it comes to gaming in most cases, and even if something is the most innovated thing, people will go out of their way to tear it a new one (and many will look at these vocal people/title threads and just think it's fact).  But there's also a crowd whereby if they see anything that resembles something in the past, it's an instant clone regardless of the other things that are worked on.  I'd imagine people will see levequests and whatever Square Enix makes Side Quests to be (whether solo or not) and say it's a solo game with nothing for grouping.  Maybe they'll see a exclamation mark above side quest heads and call it a WoW clone:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSO4DgXzeTs&list=UUpx2BZg8ABgaDV50sGJtWAg&index=32 );

Maybe they'll see five man dungeons:

(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fe09gta0WAw&list=UUpx2BZg8ABgaDV50sGJtWAg&index=30)

...and raids and call it a WoW clone.

(The above are alpha videos from Square Enix)

 

But having something that people are used to and can use as a transition point into learning new things is, in my humble opinion, the way to go when you don't want to take any chances.  To take something, give it iteration, add new systems beyond that and then give it a unique feeling according to whatever franchise it is based after.

 

Just because it has solo capabilities does not make it void of group activities or make it a group based game.  Sometimes even solo based things will be more efficient if you're in a group.  I know Behests and Hamlets were group based back in 1.0... we'll just have to see how they've evolved (well Behests scaled based on how many people you had, but you could get massive experience for more people as opposed to just doing it by yourself and getting little to none... quite similar to how much more efficient it was to level in parties on XI as opposed to being a beast master or grinding easy mobs and resting for five minutes).

 

Who knows?  It might be that you can level solo, but only progress in the story through traditional Final Fantasy means (though if this was the case, I would doubt the first couple story missions will require this as most need to be sucked into it before the commit) in that you need a group of people (pure speculation and based on the fact that all mainstream or numbered FF games had a party whereby you travel to places and go through the story together) to advance or beat it.  Though if that's the case, there may be a mixture of solo and party based missions (maybe even ones that require the help of your trust chocobo partner or your path companion back in 1.0... which I'm hoping will make a return in a future patch or expansion).

 

If 1.0 is any indication, the storyline(s)will be advanced with patches and new classes will be introduced at the same time.  It will be like a never ending Final Fantasy game in that respect (until the stories end and an expansion is released with new stories).

When faced with strife or discontent, the true nature of a man is brought forth. It is then when we see the character of the individual. It is then we are able to tell if he is mature enough to grin and bare it, or subject his fellow man to his complaints and woes.

  Yaevindusk

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/05/10
Posts: 1126

Logic, reason and fact do not supersede human nature. Ignorance reigns without justice.

5/13/13 3:55:39 AM#37
Originally posted by grndzro
Originally posted by Yaevindusk
Originally posted by grndzro

If FFXIV isn't group oriented like FFXI then I certainly won't bother reactivating.

I want FFXI 2.0.......not a wow clone with a Final Fantasy skin.

 

It depends on what you consider to be group oriented.  In today's age, it would be folly for them to ignore the solo oriented players, especially since they are incurring the costs of remaking the entire game and want to make that money back.  Though that does not mean that systems won't be in that require groups.  These don't even have to be dungeons or raids, but systems that they create in addition to those and side quests / leves that will probably be solo based (as they were in XIV save for the fact leves were more efficient if you had a group towards the beginning of the game).

 

Just seek out those systems and forget about any commonly accepted solo paths that may or may not be in the game.

You cant please both groups. this game's fanbase hails from FFXI. which quite clearly puts it in the Group oriented crowd.

 

Though sadly most of them abandoned the game when it didn't live up to expectations.  I would imagine they're looking to impress a larger piece of the pie now.  While also having the Final Fantasy Flare and some of what old FFXI players would expect / want (but in a new package and with new iterations as opposed to archaic systems).

When faced with strife or discontent, the true nature of a man is brought forth. It is then when we see the character of the individual. It is then we are able to tell if he is mature enough to grin and bare it, or subject his fellow man to his complaints and woes.

  wordiz

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/13/12
Posts: 481

5/13/13 3:59:28 AM#38

Things have changed. Was just playing with friends the other night talking about my first time in UO, having a complete stranger hook me up with a horse, lead me to a safe area, introduce me to people and dedicate weeks of his own time tp helping 12 year old me get started.

Nowadays you're either someone competing for quest mobs or berries, a means to an end in a queued dungeon run, or a random person to flame in area chat. Not a fellow player, or a member of the community. People suck anymore. Simple as that.

http://thewordiz.wordpress.com/

  SavageHorizon

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/14/13
Posts: 1547

5/13/13 4:04:26 AM#39

There have been some mmo's since ffxi, you just haven't been playing them.

Vanguard has a great community as does lotro Laurelin server.

Ryzom has a great community, Wurm Online has a great community, i could name a few more.

 

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  Keitaro333

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/04/08
Posts: 36

5/13/13 7:15:15 AM#40
Originally posted by wordiz

Things have changed. Was just playing with friends the other night talking about my first time in UO, having a complete stranger hook me up with a horse, lead me to a safe area, introduce me to people and dedicate weeks of his own time tp helping 12 year old me get started.

Nowadays you're either someone competing for quest mobs or berries, a means to an end in a queued dungeon run, or a random person to flame in area chat. Not a fellow player, or a member of the community. People suck anymore. Simple as that.

I dont think people suck. Sure, theres alot of players these days who dont play the MMOs for the same reasons and the same way most of us did 15 years ago. (those who play mostly for competition and not for the immersive/social aspect)

But alot of it is also due to the fact that MMOs today are played by many people and have faster leveling. Now in a popular game, another player is just another random toon in thousands of others and you most likely wont remember them or meet them again because theres so many, there are instances etc.

In UO and other older games there was significantly less players and slower advancement so there was a much better chance you'll meet them again around the same area. Its just like a city vs. a village in real life. Youre more familiar and cooperative with your neighbours in a smaller community.

You can attempt to remedy this slightly by joining a social/casual guild (though its not the same) or even play on a RP server.

Or play some less popular and populated MMO but that of course is in danger of shutting down if its not designed to be like that.

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