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Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn Forum » General Discussion » Invisible Walls and Corridor map design. Is it still like this?

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27 posts found
  Foomerang

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/10/05
Posts: 4294

A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still

 
OP  11/22/12 10:51:59 PM#1

One of the things that kills an mmo for me is invisible walls and zones that have very little off the designed fairways and roads. This one did just that when I played it the first time around. SWTOR does it too and it ultimately turned me away from the game.

I remember wanting to hang a left through a treeline just a few feet away and met with an invisible wall. Some areas I couldn't even walk down to a stream under a bridge and was only allowed to walk over it. Have the devs commented on this aspect of the new version? Ive watched a few videos and havent seen much of an improvement in this aspect. I still see towns blocked off by impassible treelines and steep rocks to both the left and right. It gives a feeling of only being able to go forward or backward.

Are there some videos that showcase more environment freedom? Thanks.

If you thought the events were dynamic, you'll think the stories are living.

  Snowdon_Cloudripper

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11/22/12 11:47:18 PM#2
all you have to do is watch the video's on the thread below your post. everything's in all the links watch the videos. :)

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  Snowdon_Cloudripper

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Posts: 604

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11/22/12 11:50:04 PM#3
in all games some places you can't get over or around . ARR has very few of these . you can go from a high point to a low point without following a path just jump off the hill , a video shows this the alpha gridina One

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  Alberel

Novice Member

Joined: 12/02/09
Posts: 1119

11/23/12 9:02:12 AM#4
Removing the linear corridor level design is one of the main design goals of ARR. As has been said already look up the alpha videos, some of them show how open the world has become now.
  Yakamomoto

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/24/12
Posts: 385

11/23/12 9:12:46 AM#5
Originally posted by Alberel
Removing the linear corridor level design is one of the main design goals of ARR. As has been said already look up the alpha videos, some of them show how open the world has become now.

smart.

 

I wish they would do that in TOR as well

  strangiato2112

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/21/12
Posts: 1566

11/23/12 9:32:23 AM#6
Originally posted by Yakamomoto
Originally posted by Alberel
Removing the linear corridor level design is one of the main design goals of ARR. As has been said already look up the alpha videos, some of them show how open the world has become now.

smart.

 

I wish they would do that in TOR as well

I believe they have said in TOR that future worlds will be open, not much they can do about the crap thats already there

  QSatu

Novice Member

Joined: 10/14/06
Posts: 1765

11/23/12 9:43:09 AM#7

There will be invisible walls b/c the game will be made up from separate maps but they should be much more open. From the new vids it looks like the design will be similar to FF XI with jump added.

btw. current FF XIV already has open maps. There just were a few places which had terrrible design like gridania whichw as made up of corridors.

  Foomerang

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/10/05
Posts: 4294

A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still

 
OP  11/23/12 12:03:54 PM#8

Thanks for the replies. I'll watch more videos.

If you thought the events were dynamic, you'll think the stories are living.

  Draron

Novice Member

Joined: 5/07/11
Posts: 1009

11/25/12 10:27:36 PM#9
Originally posted by strangiato2112
Originally posted by Yakamomoto
Originally posted by Alberel
Removing the linear corridor level design is one of the main design goals of ARR. As has been said already look up the alpha videos, some of them show how open the world has become now.

smart.

 

I wish they would do that in TOR as well

I believe they have said in TOR that future worlds will be open, not much they can do about the crap thats already there

This.

And my impressions of ARR so far is it will be more corridor-like than 1.0, at least when you compare it with anything outside of The Black Shroud. Though that's not to say it's going to be as guided as, say, FFXIII or TOR's indoor planets - it'll just be more like FFXI than the wide open zones 1.0 had.

  alyosha17

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/31/10
Posts: 161

11/26/12 9:29:28 PM#10

There will be invisible walls.  SE said they don't want players to be able to jump from very high areas, and they obviosuly don't understand the concept of fall damage.

 

As of alpha, no evidence of such high places yet though.

  Homitu

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/01/09
Posts: 2007

11/30/12 12:50:55 PM#11

Freedom of movement, such as being able to scale mountains, as well as general platforming just makes an MMO feel so much more real.  I find it's exceedingly difficult for a game to capture that free MMO feel if a game lacks these fundamental movement and exploration features.  It was one of the things that helped make WoW feel so much more immersive to me coming from a background in FFXI first. 

This is definitely one of the features I'll be keeping my eye on regarding FFXIV, and how it pans out will be one of the major factors that determine whether or not I will give 2.0 a shot. 

  Snowdon_Cloudripper

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Posts: 604

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11/30/12 1:36:55 PM#12
well if you want a true scaling of mountains and swimming in lakes oceans then the animation should be real like taking 4 hours to climb a small bluff or swimming in a ocean and getting attacked by a monster . I'd rather spend 30 mins walking around a bluff then spam jump to so called scale it you want things real then well make it real 4 hour climb up a bluff then. because that's real. perspectives ?

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  Homitu

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/01/09
Posts: 2007

11/30/12 2:31:06 PM#13
Originally posted by DarknessReign
well if you want a true scaling of mountains and swimming in lakes oceans then the animation should be real like taking 4 hours to climb a small bluff or swimming in a ocean and getting attacked by a monster . I'd rather spend 30 mins walking around a bluff then spam jump to so called scale it you want things real then well make it real 4 hour climb up a bluff then. because that's real. perspectives ?

Yeah, and crossing the world on foot should take several weeks, or even months, in real life time...

There are obvious concessions that must be made or else certain components of the game cease to be any fun at all.  Adding a level of interactivity with the environment can make the world feel real without it being a spot on realistic parallel to our actual reality.

  Snowdon_Cloudripper

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Posts: 604

I was a 5 star elite member but my awesomeness was showing and the Mods cant have that

11/30/12 4:48:01 PM#14
Originally posted by Homitu
Originally posted by DarknessReign
well if you want a true scaling of mountains and swimming in lakes oceans then the animation should be real like taking 4 hours to climb a small bluff or swimming in a ocean and getting attacked by a monster . I'd rather spend 30 mins walking around a bluff then spam jump to so called scale it you want things real then well make it real 4 hour climb up a bluff then. because that's real. perspectives ?

Yeah, and crossing the world on foot should take several weeks, or even months, in real life time...

There are obvious concessions that must be made or else certain components of the game cease to be any fun at all.  Adding a level of interactivity with the environment can make the world feel real without it being a spot on realistic parallel to our actual reality.

i agree but again in reguards to climbing there should be a animation to it. Not spam jumping a mountain and call that realistic. dont you agree?

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  Homitu

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/01/09
Posts: 2007

11/30/12 6:17:03 PM#15
Originally posted by DarknessReign
Originally posted by Homitu
Originally posted by DarknessReign
well if you want a true scaling of mountains and swimming in lakes oceans then the animation should be real like taking 4 hours to climb a small bluff or swimming in a ocean and getting attacked by a monster . I'd rather spend 30 mins walking around a bluff then spam jump to so called scale it you want things real then well make it real 4 hour climb up a bluff then. because that's real. perspectives ?

Yeah, and crossing the world on foot should take several weeks, or even months, in real life time...

There are obvious concessions that must be made or else certain components of the game cease to be any fun at all.  Adding a level of interactivity with the environment can make the world feel real without it being a spot on realistic parallel to our actual reality.

i agree but again in reguards to climbing there should be a animation to it. Not spam jumping a mountain and call that realistic. dont you agree?

At first I was about to say, "Yeah, a climb animation would be pretty awesome!" but now that I think about it I'm not so sure it would. When I think about the "vertical" MMO's I've played--namely WoW, Rift and GW2, most especially the later--the thrill of exploring vertical territory I think is derived from the uncertainty of whether or not I can climb each subsequent step of a slope or make the leap from one ledge to another.  If my character just suddenly engaged in a climbing animation when I touched the side of a mountain and then clung there like spiderman, sliding side to side or up and down until he bumped into a *vertical invisible corridor wall* without allowing me the ability to feel around and see if I could jump over the barrier, I think I would have a problem with that.  It would actually sacrifice realistic gameplay (the ability to freely interact with the environment according to a limited set of movement rules) in much the same way players complain FFXIV sacrifices realistic exploration gameplay, in favor of a more realistic visual representation of the game scenario.  Maybe that's the distinction we're drawing: the choice between realistic gameplay versus realistic appearance of the game being played.  

To preserve the platforming aspect of traversing vertical territory, it's also crucial that a player's movement speed isn't hindered.    This is again highly unrealistic, but absolutely necessary.  I'd fear that normal movement speed would look very awkward with a climbing animation.  That doesn't mean it can't be done; this is just my initial guess.  Although I'll admit WoW and GW2 have players swimming through water at lightning speeds and I don't recall ever gasping at the awkwardness of the unrealistically fast swim animations.  So if every aspect of current vertical platforming in MMOs remains unchanged and only the animation of the "jumps" are turned into "hoists" or whatever, and if it doesn't look absolutely ridiculous, I think it would be cool.  

Since it's relevant, I have noticed that characters that stand on slopes in GW2 stand with their legs at different elevations, one knee bent and that foot perched higher up.  It actually stood out to me as being pleasantly realistic when I first noticed it, and I thought it was cool.  So yeah, I see a climbing animation as being plausiblely cool as well.  

If you're asking me whether or not jumping detracts from the immersion of the climbing experience for me, I think I would honestly answer no.  But that's just me.  Everyone draws their immersion line in different spots and at different angles.  (As surely as some players aren't even bothered by the lack of an ability to jump or by the invisible walls and narrow corridors that this thread is about.) 

  Snowdon_Cloudripper

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11/30/12 6:52:01 PM#16

i just dont see spam jumping a bluff or mountain as real or real like. I never played WoW or Rift or GW2 . Because they never intrested me WoW to me always looked like some tweeked out saturday moring cartoon so i played FFXI for 8 years off and on. As for spam jumping i played Skyrim where you can spam jump every cliff you see and yes i have done this lots of times , But to me doing that takes away from seeing all there is to be seen . You spam jump a mountain because you just want to go from this side to that side fast . But thinking more direct a MMO is never ending , the story keeps going and we our Chrs. are the story. So why take away from that ? Example ill use old FFXIV landmarks

 

Your leaving Ul'Dah and heading to the Black Shroud walking from Tanalan . You see a group of people killing a roaming Orge or you see someone about to bite it your a healer and can shoot that person a cure to help them quick. You come across a mining node off the main road you remembered your pick ax so you hit the point on the way. You run into a NM and call it out to the LS (now Free Company) or just watch it.  your allmost around the mountain to the zone now.

 

OR

 

You can spam jump the mountain and avoid all these type of interactions in the name of time and or convience because nothing is going on , on the mountain no mobs no towns maybe other jump spamers .

 

Witch one sounds better ? ill take the 1st over the second anyday ....or to avoid it all ill jump on the Air ship lol :)

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  Homitu

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/01/09
Posts: 2007

12/01/12 8:22:38 AM#17
Originally posted by DarknessReign

i just dont see spam jumping a bluff or mountain as real or real like. I never played WoW or Rift or GW2 . Because they never intrested me WoW to me always looked like some tweeked out saturday moring cartoon so i played FFXI for 8 years off and on. As for spam jumping i played Skyrim where you can spam jump every cliff you see and yes i have done this lots of times , But to me doing that takes away from seeing all there is to be seen . You spam jump a mountain because you just want to go from this side to that side fast . But thinking more direct a MMO is never ending , the story keeps going and we our Chrs. are the story. So why take away from that ? Example ill use old FFXIV landmarks

Your leaving Ul'Dah and heading to the Black Shroud walking from Tanalan . You see a group of people killing a roaming Orge or you see someone about to bite it your a healer and can shoot that person a cure to help them quick. You come across a mining node off the main road you remembered your pick ax so you hit the point on the way. You run into a NM and call it out to the LS (now Free Company) or just watch it.  your allmost around the mountain to the zone now.

OR

You can spam jump the mountain and avoid all these type of interactions in the name of time and or convience because nothing is going on , on the mountain no mobs no towns maybe other jump spamers .

Witch one sounds better ? ill take the 1st over the second anyday ....or to avoid it all ill jump on the Air ship lol :)

I'm not saying the act of jumping across mountain tops is realistic, only that being able to interact with and traverse a vertical environment makes the world feel more real and immersive.  I then acknowledge that there needs to be some consistency in character movement (jumping, strafing, ASDW) or else it could feel too clumsy, awkward or downright frustrating. 

I feel the same way about swimming and delving into underwater environs, even though I generally don't like underwater content at all.  Even if I don't always enjoy it, being able to do it is a must for me now.  I'll never forget the first time I "fell" into water in WoW.  After having played FFXI for a few years, I expected an invisible barrier around the pond in the night elf starting area.  I was asked to pick some plants to develop a cure for an NPC's injured friend.  These plants tended to grow around ponds in the area.  There was a steep ledge near the one plant, which caused me to plummet in!  Suddenly I was underwater completely.  In that moment, I was as immersed as one can possibly get in a video game.  My mouse, keyboard and monitor ceased to exist.  I was my character for a few seconds.  I actually felt panic as if I was drowning.   I did think my character was probably going to die (I had no idea how water worked in that game.) 

As far as experiencing the content all around a mountain versus taking a shortcut across the mountain to bypass that stuff goes, you answered the question yourself!  There ARE indeed times when you want to avoid the stuff around the mountain and just get to the stuff on the other side.   Most people who played Skyrim, for example, didn't want to walk all the way across Skyrim every single time they got a new quest that led them to the other end of the world.  Thus, waypoints.  Hopefully the game you're playing will offer some mode of fast transportation when those moments occur as well.  You said yourself that that's what airships are for in the FF MMO worlds.  Other games have flight paths or waygates.  Another partial option is a simple geographical shortcut.  And those shortcuts become all the more fun when they're hidden and not everyone knows about them.  That's the fun of being able to explore up and down and over and under things in huge 3D games, they usually grant the opportunity to discover something hidden that not everyone knows about.  There's always a certain joy that accompanies those moments. 


That brings me to the 2nd point.  A good vertical game actually has content up on top of many of those mountains, or inside hidden caves, or beneath secret tunnels under lakes that lead you to an opening inside a cavern on the other side.  To go around the mountain in these games, participating in the "normal" content, means you're actually missing the secret stuff. 

Overall I think you and I like to play games the same way: take our time and experience the content.  But I don't think good games that allow you to explore hidden nooks and crannies all over the world necessarily take you away from content, but instead lead you toward hidden (hopefully fun) content. 

  Alberel

Novice Member

Joined: 12/02/09
Posts: 1119

12/01/12 12:55:12 PM#18
Originally posted by Homitu
There ARE indeed times when you want to avoid the stuff around the mountain and just get to the stuff on the other side.   Most people who played Skyrim, for example, didn't want to walk all the way across Skyrim every single time they got a new quest that led them to the other end of the world.  Thus, waypoints.  Hopefully the game you're playing will offer some mode of fast transportation when those moments occur as well.

I don't know if you ever played Morrowind, but there's a common feeling amongst the older TES players that waypoints killed the world in Oblivion and Skyrim. The game lost its sense of scale as a result of travel becoming trivial and you did indeed miss out on a huge amount of discoverable content by using waypoints. There were a lot of mods created just to remove the waypoint systems.

The issue here is something that has plagued 'virtual worlds' since their inception. Convenience in travel is constantly sought and demanded but then once players have it the game suddenly loses something and they don't know what. That something is scale. If you can trivialise movement in the world then it stops feeling like a world. This is one of those cases where (in my opinion) what players want is actually not in their best interests. There were times when playing FFXI that I wished I could get somewhere faster, but looking back at the game I know it was precisely because things took time that I valued my experiences in the game so much more than any other.

Think of an epic quest that requires a player to travel the world collecting valued items from several different dungeons. If that player could just teleport between the dungeons to get each item the quest would instantly lose much of its epic scale. As much as people equate time=grind (which isn't always true), time is a necessary factor in making things in MMOs have value.

Your comments with regards to climbing mountains and such hits on another issue with the genre though. There seem to be two types of immersion that I've noticed. Some players focus on world immersion whereby they have complete control of their character and are free to do anything their character would realistically be capable of (even if it doesn't make sense for their character to be doing that). Other players focus on character immersion wherein players are restricted to the things their characters would realistically do in a given scenario (such as not jumping in rivers or climbing mountains; in reality people would find an alternative route).

Though I recognise the value and appeal of both, different games cater to different tastes on that one and the FF series has generally always catered to the latter. That doesn't necessarily mean invisible walls galore though. A good developer will find ways to mould the environment to organically restrict players, rather than giving them arbitrary barriers.

  Snowdon_Cloudripper

Novice Member

Joined: 11/10/12
Posts: 604

I was a 5 star elite member but my awesomeness was showing and the Mods cant have that

12/01/12 1:59:24 PM#19

I agree i am from the old school of FFXI and at times i would get mad like damn i have to travel from Jeuno to Delkforts Tower then climb the stupid tower. This is going to take so much time. BUT the great thing was this on my way there i run past at the time before abyssea around 10 or 15 parties leveling watching them as i pass seeing a level 20 tank die and the whm getting yelled at and remembering to myself learning the jobs at low levels . Or watching someone pull a crab at night and a revrent pops right on them that was always classic. Checking 2 NMs spots along the way to the tower . Getting to the tower and getting to the upper levels and thinking ok crap i need these Bats to move or im dead or i hope Sneak and Invis stick because i need to pass The gigas hope Pallas isent up ill get owned . And that was when you had to remember what mobs were agressive and by what means .

Thats what i LOVED about FFXI that you had to always be on guard death could be anywhere at anytime. And like i said a few posts up You felt the story and had a sence of all most pride to get things done. Or getting that AFV2 from Dynamiss that only took 3 weeks to do . Or the 3 months it took to FINISH Sea.

I dont think  a game will ever replace FFXI (pre Abyssea) but i am hoping FFXIV:ARR will come close .

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  TangentPoint

Elite Member

Joined: 2/12/12
Posts: 976

The "Real Game" begins at character creation.

12/02/12 4:46:27 PM#20
Originally posted by strangiato2112
Originally posted by Yakamomoto
Originally posted by Alberel
Removing the linear corridor level design is one of the main design goals of ARR. As has been said already look up the alpha videos, some of them show how open the world has become now.

smart.

 

I wish they would do that in TOR as well

I believe they have said in TOR that future worlds will be open, not much they can do about the crap thats already there

Hello, fellow Rush fan! :)

I wouldn't be so sure there's nothing they could do about it. They could always phone up SE and ask Yoshi-P if they could borrow Bahamut for a little bit to help them do some renovating... :-p

 

My philosophy on MMORPGs:

Leveling is what happens while you're playing the rest of the game.

Don't worry about levels. Just play.

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