Originally posted by henryk

Originally posted by Magiknight

Fine I will bite. Let the 1.0 discussion continue. Henryk said that,

"Not every class of FFXIV is a hybrid. While it is true that before the job system came about, the distinction between the melee classes weren't big in terms of individual skills, they are very different in how a player can build their character because each of the 7 classes (melee & magic) can equip up to a certain number of skills from other classes provided that 1) the same character already learned those skills as another class; 2) those skills are one of a subset of each class' available skills that could be learned by another class. That's right! FFXIV 1.0 (and 2.0) characters can level each and every single class individually. You could  decide to have no level as a gladiator, but play to lvl 20 in conjurer, lvl 30 in lancer, lvl 50 as a marauder. The same goes for Disciplines of Land (3 classes of material gatherers) and Disciplines of Craft (8 classes in total). Some people have hit lvl 50 in all 18 classes in ONE SINGLE TOON. Please tell me how is it similar to WOW, in which each toon can only be one combat-oriented class as the main class and a few crafting / gathering classes??"

 

I really have trouble responding to this..... It is WoW in so many ways. First, you are correct when you say that you can take skills from different classes for your one character. So people combine skills from conjurer and gladiator and what do you have? A hybrid. Most classes in WoW are hybrids. You are arguing that allowing a player to choose which hybrid he is is the opposite of a hybrid. This is not true. Second, allowing a player to have multiple classes with one character doesn't necessarily mean anything. Having multiple characters, each with one class, only allows for people to change the appearance of their character. If a player only has one character with multiple classes then he is just looking at the same charcter all the time. It's possible that the only change is a visual change.

I can respond to all of your other comments but I really really do not want to.

I'm a fan of each player having only one character, but not for this reason. Having only one charcter provides more stability, which is needed for communities. I'm a fan of how this was done in 1.0. But this thread is not about 1.0........ It's about how the director of ARR likes WoW.

Your original arguement is about why you believe FFXIV ARR will be a "CLONE" of WOW, because in your opinion (you said you had stated more than 5 times), even in FFXIV 1.0, the game is already very similar to WOW. It doesn't matter if the end product made you "feel" that they are similar. The fact that FFXIV 1.0's class system is constructed entirely different than that of WOW's is already proof that they are not even close. I hope you know the definition of CLONE, as stated by some others in the thread. Both games' classes are hybrid so they are similar?? I dare you go to WOW's official forum and argue with the WOW players that most WOW classes are hybrid! You say a Warrior can be both a tank and a DPS in WOW? Yeah, but not without respec and changing your gear entirely, if you want to be effective about it.  Can a warrior switch between a DPS and a tank frequently? Sure if you spend enough to respec all the time, but that's not what WOW players do. If they want a DPS, some of them will just roll a rogue. That's way more efficient than trying to be a DPS and tank warrior at the same time. If that's why you call MOST WOW classes as hybrid, that's your OWN OPINION, and there will be thousands if not hundred of thousands of current and previous WOW players (myself included) that will argue with you about the inefficiency of doing that (i.e, switching roles on the same toon frequently). You could probably say the Druid or the Death Knight is a hybrid, as each could be a tank, a healer or a DPS. But that's about it! (I haven't played monk, so I don't know about it).

It also shows your ignorance of the FFXIV 1.0 game system. If you are a archer in the game, even though you can get a heal skill (and only the lowest tier one) from your conjurer class, there is absolutely no way you can be a healer in a group by equiping just the one and only one healing spell allowable by the game from conjurer and call yourself the healer of the group. Your party will be slaughtered. (In fact, other players will just laugh at your face and tell you to move along). Even if you can equip SOME VERY LIMITED skills of other classes, you are by NO mean effective and efficient enough to change your role. All classes basically stick to their own role. You can heal as a marauder by equiping 1 heal spell from conjurer and 1 self-heal skill from pugilist? Great! You may be able to lessen the burden of your Conjurer / White Mage by self healing a very small amount here or there. That's it. You will NEVER be a healer, as implied by your view of them being a HYBRID. FFXIV classes are even less efficient / effective than WOW classes as hybrids. They simply AREN'T hybrid. Period.

As someone has pointed out later, having one character doing all classes in FFXIV allows most player to stay with only one character (sometimes with shared armor, but never weapons or main skills), and when you change class, it plays entirely differently (If you switch to your white mage class, there's no way you can be a tank or play the job of the black mage. In WOW, to play a different style, you have the freedom to play an entirely different faction (Alliance or Horde), with different gender, different race, with different crafting skills. Especially if you are on a different faction, a big chunk of the quests will be different. You say that's the same as having one toon only playing all classes with the exception of the graphics? That's purely ridiculous.

You apparently have tried to ignore my other counter arguements about why FFXIV 1.0 is NOT a clone of WOW, and just try to stick to one point. How convenient! Yeah,,,that dude just writes too long! I'd rather not read them all! Sure! Tell that to your boss in the real world when you really want to make your point across. Or tell your lawyer that's why you didn't read some fine prints!! See how well it goes!

You also have not identify how long you have been playing FFXIV 1.0 to call yourself a person with good knowledge about the game. Even if you have been a player of FFXIV 1.0 for a while and still believe that FFXIV 1.0 plays like WOW, that's entirely your own personal opinion. You could ask vast majority of players of FFXIV 1.0 players, and (in my opinion) they will tell you that you are wrong.

From your first response to my original message (when you express your surprise that I call FFXIV a sandbox), many people who have played it would know that you don't really know much about FFXIV. WHY?? Themepark games have quest hubs. You play and level in one zone, get better gears, then you move on to the next after whatever quests you want to do are done or you outlevel the zone. That's how WOW plays when you are not at the End Game. 

That's NOT how you play or level your toon in FFXIV. There're rarely quests out in the individual zones for players to get and level with. You just get repeatable quest from the 3 (only 3) main cities, then teleport to the camps where you activate the quests there (which plays like a random encounter with no story attached to them). After you get them done, you go back to cities to get more (of the same type of quests). That's the levequest SYSTEM. The story, job, class, grand company quests etc are all separate and optional, and in order for your toon to be qualified to take on those quests, you have to level the corresponding classes / jobs / grand company ranks accordingly. It's entirely about character's progression, with 0% relevant to any zone itself. Instead of quest hubs, FFXIV 1.0 uses GAME SYSTEMS as contents to help level the PCs - besides levequests, they have hamlet defense, grand company repeatable quessts, dungeons, etc. Further more, while players have the OPTION to customize their character with skills from other classes, they are NOT mandatory. On the other hand, find me a WOW player who wouldn't grab all the skills that belong to the class of his toon! The skill trees only give toons speciality within a class, but never across classes.

So, even though FFXIV is not 100% reliant on game systems for players to level, it does so way more than most other MMORPGs out there. (The only one I've played that are similar would be SWG before NGE, as stated in my first message.) You can do 0% of the story, class, job quests etc and have your toon at max levels in all classes because the levequest SYSTEM allows player to do so, and it does not have quest hubs. That's why it is primarily a sandbox game. 

You try ask someone to level their toons in WOW without doing any quest from all the quest hubs in each zone?? Sure you could just go out there to kill random mobs to level, but it will take you ages and honestly, do you believe anyone would do that, leveling purely from killing non-quest mobs??

Since you don't even understand this fundamental difference between WOW and FFXIV, I find it pointless to debate this topic further with you, who seems to argue your point just for arguement's sake. I may not change how you view these two games, as you certainly are entitled to your own opinions, but I don't care. Nor do I need to argue with you about how ARR would or would not be a clone of WOW. When the game comes out, let all the players be the judges. Unlike someone who claims to know so much about FFXIV ARR wtihout stating any concrete info about the game other than a general comment from the game developer and maybe watching a video or two of ALPHA game play, I preserve my judgement on ARR until it comes out. I stated my view about Yoshida-san's commentary on ARR and WOW in my last message, but apparently you haven't read it.

This will be my last response. My goal is to tell other fellow MMORPG gamers who have not tried FFXIV 1.0 or know enough about ARR why FFXIV 1.0 has nothing similar to WOW in terms of gameplay, the whole leveling experience, character progression and game structure. I believe ONLY genuine players who have been playing both games for months and years are qualified to make such a comparison. And I prove how different they are with facts from actually playing the games, not how I "feel" the games are similar with empty, qualitative sentences. You can still believe that FFXIV 1.0 are very very similar to WOW, but don't call it out as if those are facts.

OK lets change this to a WoW v 1.0 thread. Maybe clone is the wrong word to get the point across. Maybe it is more accurate to say that 1.0 germinated from WoW.

The WoW classes are hybrids. I would never go to the official WoW forums.  The WoW system is ubiquitous. When I played WoW respecing and getting new  gear was not that hard.  Druid, paladin, shaman, warrior, death knight, and priest are all hybrids. They can perform multiple functions in a party. A non hybrid's function would be to ONLY heal, ONLY deal damage, or ONLY take hits. Efficiency has NOTHING to do with it. The mere option makes it a hybrid. If it was not a hybrid then ALL warriors would ONLY do damage on every single server.

FFXIV's classes are not as much of a hybrid as WoWs. As a conjurer I could take hits, deal damage (through spells), andh heal. This IS a hybrid. Partys were not so much about hybrids. Soloing was about hybrids and I could solo as much as I wanted (which sucks). They are hybrid.

What does gender and race matter in WoW? The few extra skills you get with different races are insignificant. Nothing changes with gender. Whether you play with the alliance or the horde it is virtuallly the same experience.

You do write too much for a forum.

I played 1.0 for four months. What do I care that everyone who played  the game until the servers shut down thinks it is the best thing ever or that it doesn't play like WoW?

FFXIV is much more of a themepark than a sandbox game. I can't read anymore of that.

Edit: And I still really do not care about 1.0

 

Originally posted by Magiknight

Originally posted by Ambros123

Originally posted by Magiknight

Well, there is the small fact that the original FFXIV was epic fail and it used WoW as its "model of success" and now they are doing the same thing again......................  Is it possible they might fail again?

 

There are already literally dozens of games that mimic WoW that I could play.  Lots of them have failed after just a year or so.  Something different would be nice for a change.  Something just as nice might be something more similar to pre WoW.  Do you know how many MMOs failed before WoW?  Like 0. 

 

I've already stated what I want in many other posts on these forums.

Name the "failrures" that shut their server's down as technically those are failures.  If the game is still up and running then it's successful, which by far is the vast majority.  Granted not a raging success or the success they wanted but a success nonetheless.

But I agree though, FF XIV should form up their own ideals and not copy WoW.

And let's be honest, the failures of FF XIV while numerous did not fail because it borrowed from WoW's design.  The bug ridden, empty world, lack luster combat, and who knows what else caused it's failure not because of taken concepts from WoW.

Failures created since WoW: The Chronicles of Spellborn, Tabula Rasa, Fantasy Earth: Zero, Dark and Light, The Matrix Online.

Failures made before WoW: City of Heroes and Star Wars Galaxies, Everquest Online Adventures

All of the games I listed have shut down their servers.  I'm sure there are more.  So many others have adopted free to play models, have been sold to other companies, or have a dwindling population.

FFXIV might be a commercial success...................but what else would you call it a success in?  How many other games are commercial successes with absolutely nothing else to mention about them?

FFXIV took numerous concepts from WoW.  The heart of FFXIV is a shadow of WoW.  To be specific, every class in FFXIV is a hybrid, similar to WoW.  A conjurer can heal and do damage.  A paladin can take hits and deal damage.  Everything is pretty much given to you in both games.  Traveling, experiences points, armor, skills, are all handed out.  There is no real in-game danger in either game.  When you die your armor is damaged and you have to spend a negligable amount of money fixing it.  Both games are extremely solo friendly.  Both have short ladders to the top and make the journey to the top trivial.  I could go on and on...........  I try and come up with differences and I can only come up with names.  Chocobo vs. horse, white mage vs priest, name of such and such monster with such and such monster............

Edit: One difference I could think of is that in FFXIV you can't jump.

Paladins could heal and do damage in FFXI, which launched before WoW. Was FFXI a WoW clone, too?

WHMs (the class version of WHM in XIV) could heal and do damage... does that mean FFXI was a WoW clone, too?

Every character in FFXI beyond level 18 was a hybrid, due to the Support Job system allowing you to bring abilities and bonuses of other jobs to bear for your main job. Does that mean FFXI was a WoW clone, too?

You don't know how "extremely solo friendly" ARR yet, as no one has actually really played it fully yet. The closest to that are the current Alpha testers, and they're not allowed to talk about it. So you're talking pure conjecture there.

"Traveling, experiences points, armor, skills, are all handed out. "

I've yet to have traveling "handed out" to me in XIV 1.0. With the exception of a couple nodes, I've had to physically go and unlock each aetheryte camp and node before I could teleport there. I've had to run along long distances to get where I needed to go, through dangerous terrain with mobs that could kill me in 3 hits at times. I've seen no indication that it will be any different in 2.0.

Every point of XP I've gained has been earned by completing a quest, fighting a mob, crafting something, harvesting something, etc. I've never gotten "exploration xp" in XIV for merely walking forward and crossing an invisible line like you do in WoW. So.. not sure what you're getting at there, either. No indication it'll be any different in 2.0.

Armor is handed out? Really? So players will never have to buy, craft or kill mobs or "raid bosses" to get gear in 1.0 or in ARR? They'll just fall from the sky and land in our inventory bags? Boy, was I gypped! Care to share how you know this? Or is it, yet again, just more conjecture?

And on... and on... and on... Your post is so full of easily disproven and blatantly cherry-picked misinformation that I'm almost impressed you had the nerve to even post it. Anyone who's played FFXIV for any amount of time would know right off the bat you're full of it. You can spin it any way you want, try to play with words or mis-label things so they fit your scenario better.. but at the end of the day... your entire post is nonsense.

 

Ignorance is bliss.

It seems that every MMO that comes out regardless, people will talk out of their anal cavity about stuff they know absolutely  nothing about.

Originally posted by TangentPoint

Originally posted by Magiknight

Originally posted by Ambros123

Originally posted by Magiknight

Well, there is the small fact that the original FFXIV was epic fail and it used WoW as its "model of success" and now they are doing the same thing again......................  Is it possible they might fail again?

 

There are already literally dozens of games that mimic WoW that I could play.  Lots of them have failed after just a year or so.  Something different would be nice for a change.  Something just as nice might be something more similar to pre WoW.  Do you know how many MMOs failed before WoW?  Like 0. 

 

I've already stated what I want in many other posts on these forums.

Name the "failrures" that shut their server's down as technically those are failures.  If the game is still up and running then it's successful, which by far is the vast majority.  Granted not a raging success or the success they wanted but a success nonetheless.

But I agree though, FF XIV should form up their own ideals and not copy WoW.

And let's be honest, the failures of FF XIV while numerous did not fail because it borrowed from WoW's design.  The bug ridden, empty world, lack luster combat, and who knows what else caused it's failure not because of taken concepts from WoW.

Failures created since WoW: The Chronicles of Spellborn, Tabula Rasa, Fantasy Earth: Zero, Dark and Light, The Matrix Online.

Failures made before WoW: City of Heroes and Star Wars Galaxies, Everquest Online Adventures

All of the games I listed have shut down their servers.  I'm sure there are more.  So many others have adopted free to play models, have been sold to other companies, or have a dwindling population.

FFXIV might be a commercial success...................but what else would you call it a success in?  How many other games are commercial successes with absolutely nothing else to mention about them?

FFXIV took numerous concepts from WoW.  The heart of FFXIV is a shadow of WoW.  To be specific, every class in FFXIV is a hybrid, similar to WoW.  A conjurer can heal and do damage.  A paladin can take hits and deal damage.  Everything is pretty much given to you in both games.  Traveling, experiences points, armor, skills, are all handed out.  There is no real in-game danger in either game.  When you die your armor is damaged and you have to spend a negligable amount of money fixing it.  Both games are extremely solo friendly.  Both have short ladders to the top and make the journey to the top trivial.  I could go on and on...........  I try and come up with differences and I can only come up with names.  Chocobo vs. horse, white mage vs priest, name of such and such monster with such and such monster............

Edit: One difference I could think of is that in FFXIV you can't jump.

Paladins could heal and do damage in FFXI, which launched before WoW. Was FFXI a WoW clone, too?

WHMs (the class version of WHM in XIV) could heal and do damage... does that mean FFXI was a WoW clone, too?

Every character in FFXI beyond level 18 was a hybrid, due to the Support Job system allowing you to bring abilities and bonuses of other jobs to bear for your main job. Does that mean FFXI was a WoW clone, too?

You don't know how "extremely solo friendly" ARR yet, as no one has actually really played it fully yet. The closest to that are the current Alpha testers, and they're not allowed to talk about it. So you're talking pure conjecture there.

"Traveling, experiences points, armor, skills, are all handed out. "

I've yet to have traveling "handed out" to me in XIV 1.0. With the exception of a couple nodes, I've had to physically go and unlock each aetheryte camp and node before I could teleport there. I've had to run along long distances to get where I needed to go, through dangerous terrain with mobs that could kill me in 3 hits at times. I've seen no indication that it will be any different in 2.0.

Every point of XP I've gained has been earned by completing a quest, fighting a mob, crafting something, harvesting something, etc. I've never gotten "exploration xp" in XIV for merely walking forward and crossing an invisible line like you do in WoW. So.. not sure what you're getting at there, either. No indication it'll be any different in 2.0.

Armor is handed out? Really? So players will never have to buy, craft or kill mobs or "raid bosses" to get gear in 1.0 or in ARR? They'll just fall from the sky and land in our inventory bags? Boy, was I gypped! Care to share how you know this? Or is it, yet again, just more conjecture?

And on... and on... and on... Your post is so full of easily disproven and blatantly cherry-picked misinformation that I'm almost impressed you had the nerve to even post it. Anyone who's played FFXIV for any amount of time would know right off the bat you're full of it. You can spin it any way you want, try to play with words or mis-label things so they fit your scenario better.. but at the end of the day... your entire post is nonsense.

 

A Paladins damage in FFXI was insignificant. Whitemage damage in FFXI was insignificant. As a conjurer in FFXIV I could cast spells to do damage and it was not insignificant.

FFXI used subjobs to create extremely specialized classes. A Paladin did not sub whitemage to be a healer and tank. He subbed warrior to add provoke, more defense, hit points, etc. A whitemage subbed blackmage so that he had more mana, not to nuke. There are exception to this and they are just that, exceptions. For example, Dragoon subbing whitemage. A hybrid in FFXI (pre ToAU) was not thought very highly of. The redmage was really the only hybrid.

You can teleport anywhere you have traveled to once in FFXIV. Chocobos and air ships are easy to get. Everyone has them. These are all cheap modes of transportation. It is handed out

I never had any trouble finding anything in FFXIV. I just went to a shop or the place where the bazillions of retainers were. The point is that money is never a problem.

This is truth. I never even wanted to talk about 1.0 on this thread.

Originally posted by extolrox
COH came after WoW you goof ball I should know I left WoW to play the beta and it was a sad day when NC had to pull the stunt of shutting down the servers.

 

I played in the open beta for City of Heroes (the invasion event at the end would have been bunches of fun were it not for the lag). It launched more than  half a year before WoW did.

Originally posted by Magiknight

Originally posted by Ambros123

Originally posted by Magiknight

Well, there is the small fact that the original FFXIV was epic fail and it used WoW as its "model of success" and now they are doing the same thing again......................  Is it possible they might fail again?

 

There are already literally dozens of games that mimic WoW that I could play.  Lots of them have failed after just a year or so.  Something different would be nice for a change.  Something just as nice might be something more similar to pre WoW.  Do you know how many MMOs failed before WoW?  Like 0. 

 

I've already stated what I want in many other posts on these forums.

Name the "failrures" that shut their server's down as technically those are failures.  If the game is still up and running then it's successful, which by far is the vast majority.  Granted not a raging success or the success they wanted but a success nonetheless.

But I agree though, FF XIV should form up their own ideals and not copy WoW.

And let's be honest, the failures of FF XIV while numerous did not fail because it borrowed from WoW's design.  The bug ridden, empty world, lack luster combat, and who knows what else caused it's failure not because of taken concepts from WoW.

Failures created since WoW: The Chronicles of Spellborn, Tabula Rasa, Fantasy Earth: Zero, Dark and Light, The Matrix Online.

Failures made before WoW: City of Heroes and Star Wars Galaxies, Everquest Online Adventures

All of the games I listed have shut down their servers.  I'm sure there are more.  So many others have adopted free to play models, have been sold to other companies, or have a dwindling population.

FFXIV might be a commercial success...................but what else would you call it a success in?  How many other games are commercial successes with absolutely nothing else to mention about them?

FFXIV took numerous concepts from WoW.  The heart of FFXIV is a shadow of WoW.  To be specific, every class in FFXIV is a hybrid, similar to WoW.  A conjurer can heal and do damage.  A paladin can take hits and deal damage.  Everything is pretty much given to you in both games.  Traveling, experiences points, armor, skills, are all handed out.  There is no real in-game danger in either game.  When you die your armor is damaged and you have to spend a negligable amount of money fixing it.  Both games are extremely solo friendly.  Both have short ladders to the top and make the journey to the top trivial.  I could go on and on...........  I try and come up with differences and I can only come up with names.  Chocobo vs. horse, white mage vs priest, name of such and such monster with such and such monster............

Edit: One difference I could think of is that in FFXIV you can't jump.

Only a nub would classify games like SWG and CoX as failures. They ran for over 8 years each and made tons of money. Games that are failures are ones that made no profit (eg Secret World and FFXIV). As far as copying WoW goes, MY PERSONAL OPINION here,WoW was the worst MMO ever made. I tried to play it numerous times and it was boring. I have only liked 1 game that was made kinda like it. If they go this route I will try the game (probably on ps3) and if I like it, cool. If not, then I'll start to complain about it.

Originally posted by megabuu

Originally posted by Magiknight

Originally posted by Ambros123

Originally posted by Magiknight

Well, there is the small fact that the original FFXIV was epic fail and it used WoW as its "model of success" and now they are doing the same thing again......................  Is it possible they might fail again?

 

There are already literally dozens of games that mimic WoW that I could play.  Lots of them have failed after just a year or so.  Something different would be nice for a change.  Something just as nice might be something more similar to pre WoW.  Do you know how many MMOs failed before WoW?  Like 0. 

 

I've already stated what I want in many other posts on these forums.

Name the "failrures" that shut their server's down as technically those are failures.  If the game is still up and running then it's successful, which by far is the vast majority.  Granted not a raging success or the success they wanted but a success nonetheless.

But I agree though, FF XIV should form up their own ideals and not copy WoW.

And let's be honest, the failures of FF XIV while numerous did not fail because it borrowed from WoW's design.  The bug ridden, empty world, lack luster combat, and who knows what else caused it's failure not because of taken concepts from WoW.

Failures created since WoW: The Chronicles of Spellborn, Tabula Rasa, Fantasy Earth: Zero, Dark and Light, The Matrix Online.

Failures made before WoW: City of Heroes and Star Wars Galaxies, Everquest Online Adventures

All of the games I listed have shut down their servers.  I'm sure there are more.  So many others have adopted free to play models, have been sold to other companies, or have a dwindling population.

FFXIV might be a commercial success...................but what else would you call it a success in?  How many other games are commercial successes with absolutely nothing else to mention about them?

FFXIV took numerous concepts from WoW.  The heart of FFXIV is a shadow of WoW.  To be specific, every class in FFXIV is a hybrid, similar to WoW.  A conjurer can heal and do damage.  A paladin can take hits and deal damage.  Everything is pretty much given to you in both games.  Traveling, experiences points, armor, skills, are all handed out.  There is no real in-game danger in either game.  When you die your armor is damaged and you have to spend a negligable amount of money fixing it.  Both games are extremely solo friendly.  Both have short ladders to the top and make the journey to the top trivial.  I could go on and on...........  I try and come up with differences and I can only come up with names.  Chocobo vs. horse, white mage vs priest, name of such and such monster with such and such monster............

Edit: One difference I could think of is that in FFXIV you can't jump.

Only a nub would classify games like SWG and CoX as failures. They ran for over 8 years each and made tons of money. Games that are failures are ones that made no profit (eg Secret World and FFXIV). As far as copying WoW goes, MY PERSONAL OPINION here,WoW was the worst MMO ever made. I tried to play it numerous times and it was boring. I have only liked 1 game that was made kinda like it. If they go this route I will try the game (probably on ps3) and if I like it, cool. If not, then I'll start to complain about it.

Omgggggggggg he asked what games shut down their servers

No he said that games THAT shut down their servers are failures. This is not entirely true

Originally posted by Magiknight

 

A Paladins damage in FFXI was insignificant. Whitemage damage in FFXI was insignificant. As a conjurer in FFXIV I could cast spells to do damage and it was not insignificant.

Oh no no no... Sorry, no moving the goal post. You made a specific argument regarding FFXIV being a "clone" based on similarities to WoW's classes. I illustrated the flaw in your logic by illustrating XI's version of those same classes/roles, which pre-date WoW by 2 years. You said nothing about the amount of damage or "how significant it is".  You don't get to conveniently modify your argument after the fact because your original argument has been ripped apart.

Sorry. Don't work that way.

FFXI used subjobs to create extremely specialized classes. A Paladin did not sub whitemage to be a healer and tank. He subbed warrior to add provoke, more defense, hit points, etc. A whitemage subbed blackmage so that he had more mana, not to nuke. There are exception to this and they are just that, exceptions. For example, Dragoon subbing whitemage. A hybrid in FFXI (pre ToAU) was not thought very highly of. The redmage was really the only hybrid.

Again, you're trying to now move the goal-post by modifying/re-qualifying your original argument after the fact. And again, it won't fly.

You stated that WoW's class system allowed for hybrid builds and that made XIV's system a "clone" of it. I pointed out that XI had a similar system prior to that. FFXI's subjob system allowed a different playstyle for each Main job, based on the subjob selected. A DRG/SAM plays differently from a DRG/WAR, which plays differently from a DRG/WHM, and so on. Instead of choosing different Talent trees to change up your playstyle, you choose a different subjob.

Players chose to use very "specialized" combinations thanks to min-maxing and imposed "group requirements". The game itself imposed no such limits.

You can teleport anywhere you have traveled to once in FFXIV. Chocobos and air ships are easy to get. Everyone has them. These are all cheap modes of transportation. It is handed out.

In FFXIV you can teleport to an Aetheryte Crystal once you've been there, true... which means you have to get there first, which involves a travel cost in time. You have to run to an Aetheryte Node on foot (or Chocobo) to activate it - not so easy a tastk in many cases. Teleportation has an Anima cost, which replenishes slowly over time, limiting how frequently you can teleport - so it, too, has a cost. You have to pay for an airship ride - not free. Until you earn your own Chocobo (through a long series of quests), you have to rent them (not free).  So, no, transportation is not handed out in XIV.

Again, your argument fails.

I never had any trouble finding anything in FFXIV. I just went to a shop or the place where the bazillions of retainers were. The point is that money is never a problem.

And....?

This is truth. I never even wanted to talk about 1.0 on this thread.

But you did, so it's fair game. Deal with it.

And again, you don't know exactly how things will work in ARR - very little information has been given out in that regard. So all you have to go on is your own assumptions/conjecture. "Assumptions" and "Conjecture" are, by definition, not "truth".

Yet again your arguments fail.

Some friendly advice: Before you go off on these rants of yours, you might want to A) Do some research and B) Remember that there are people on these forums who do know what they're talking about and who will correct you when you try to spin nonsense as you are in your posts.

Now, let's see how far you'll move the goal-posts and revise your arguments this time...

A failure people seem to forget is Auto Assault. And wow. I like cars, I like explosions, but I did not like Auto Assault.

Originally posted by TangentPoint

Originally posted by Magiknight

 

A Paladins damage in FFXI was insignificant. Whitemage damage in FFXI was insignificant. As a conjurer in FFXIV I could cast spells to do damage and it was not insignificant.

Oh no no no... Sorry, no moving the goal post. You made a specific argument regarding FFXIV being a "clone" based on similarities to WoW's classes. You said nothing about the amount of damage or "how significant it is".  You don't get to conveniently modify your argument after the fact because your original argument has been ripped apart.

Sorry. Don't work that way.

FFXI used subjobs to create extremely specialized classes. A Paladin did not sub whitemage to be a healer and tank. He subbed warrior to add provoke, more defense, hit points, etc. A whitemage subbed blackmage so that he had more mana, not to nuke. There are exception to this and they are just that, exceptions. For example, Dragoon subbing whitemage. A hybrid in FFXI (pre ToAU) was not thought very highly of. The redmage was really the only hybrid.

Again, you're trying to now move the goal-post by modifying/re-qualifying your original argument after the fact. And again, it won't fly.

You stated that WoW's class system allowed for hybrid builds and that made XIV's system a "clone" of it. I pointed out that XI had a similar system prior to that. FFXI's subjob system allowed a different playstyle for each Main job, based on the subjob selected. A DRG/SAM plays differently from a DRG/WAR, which plays differently from a DRG/WHM, and so on. Instead of choosing different Talent trees to change up your playstyle, you choose a different subjob.

You can teleport anywhere you have traveled to once in FFXIV. Chocobos and air ships are easy to get. Everyone has them. These are all cheap modes of transportation. It is handed out.

In FFXIV you can teleport to an Aetheryte Crystal once you've been there, true... which means you have to get there first, which involves a travel cost in time. You have to run to an Aetheryte Node on foot (or Chocobo) to activate it - not so easy a tastk in many cases. Teleportation has an Anima cost, which replenishes slowly over time, limiting how frequently you can teleport - so it, too, has a cost. You have to pay for an airship ride - not free. Until you earn your own Chocobo (through a long series of quests), you have to rent them (not free).  So, no, transportation is not handed out in XIV.

Again, your argument fails.

I never had any trouble finding anything in FFXIV. I just went to a shop or the place where the bazillions of retainers were. The point is that money is never a problem.

And....?

This is truth. I never even wanted to talk about 1.0 on this thread.

But you did, so it's fair game. Deal with it.

And again, you don't know exactly how things will work in ARR - very little information has been given out in that regard. So all you have to go on is your own assumptions/conjecture. "Assumptions" and "Conjecture" are, by definition, not "truth".

Yet again your arguments fail.

Some friendly advice: Before you go off on these rants of yours, you might want to A) Do some research and B) Remember that there are people on these forums who do know what they're talking about and who will correct you when you try to spin nonsense as you are in your posts.

Now, let's see how far you'll move the goal-posts and revise your arguments this time...

Everything I say about FFXI is pre WoW influence (ToAU). This thread has went from ARR to 1.0 and now to FFXI. Amazing.

Your argument was that FFXI was a WoW clone because "Paladins could heal and do damage in FFXI." I pointed out that it was insignifiant damage. What did I change the goal to? It's the same argument. I never said FFXI was a WoW clone and I don't know why you are brining it up. The classes in FFXI and FFXIV are completely different. I have no clue why you are brining up FFXI or 1.0 in a thread devoted to ARR. ARR classes are very comparable to WoW. The roles of classes, damage dealers or otherwise, has everything to do with it.

A DRG/WAR and DRG/SAM are both still ONLY damage dealers. They both can not take damage at all in a party. They both do not heal in a party. A DRG/WHM could only solo and it would be a great struggle for him to solo. Dragoon is one of the more flexible classes in that regard. Almost every other class is even more limited than that. In WoW the different talent tree builds allows for the same class to fulfill different roles in a party or solo. The same class may deal dps, nuke, do crowd control, and be able to take a certain number of hits once they get aggro. In FFXI a blm that go aggro in a big fight would go down in 3 hits. He would not do crowd control. The fact that the BLM subbed WHM would not matter. A different build in WoW would matter in terms of which of the roles the player was performing more of. He would still be performing all of them to some degree. The subjob for the BLM would not change his role at all.

Wow, you have to run to a place before you can teleport to it indefinitely for the rest of your gaming career. Running to these places take 10 minutes tops.  You can farm the money to ride an airship in 5 minutes or less. Anima replinishes plenty fast. You said that nothing was handed out in FFXIV. It does not get easier than that.

The developers have said that WoW is having the biggest influemnce on FFXIV. What else is there to know?

not to mention FFXI came out 2 years before WoW :) and FFXIV:AAR is getting its ideas from all the major MMORPGS not just WoW Yoshi states that himself. This thread is pointless. Everything's WoW to a WoW fan Even things like FFXI witch came out before WoW is a copy of WoW .

Originally posted by DarknessReign
not to mention FFXI came out 2 years before WoW :) and FFXIV:AAR is getting its ideas from all the major MMORPGS not just WoW Yoshi states that himself. This thread is pointless. Everything's WoW to a WoW fan Even things like FFXI witch came out before WoW is a copy of WoW .

I hate WoW :( I think people were smarter before it came out.

back when you had to use your brain to solve quests , and instinct to avoid aggressive mobs. and remember witch are and witch are not. Now its Ohh humm I want to beat the game Ohh humm its to hard why should I have to walk to this point I should be able to fly there now. Hint a mmo is not a RPG its a never ending story that has no finally . You are the story go explore the sights the sounds .

Well, you can't deny they are drawing inspiration from World of Warcraft, but what I dislike about companies that try to capture the lightning in the bottle of WoW's beastly subscription #'s is Blizzard had a HUGE following before world of warcraft came out, you had Diablo Warcraft and Starcraft; and all 3 of those games are still MASSIVE today; and granted not 100% of the audiences in those games came to world of warcraft but a humongous chunk did. Then you got to think people that were playing other mmo's at the time who were getting burnt out of those respective mmo's, a few I can think of were Everquest, SWG (pre-cu), FFXI and Ultima Online. (I was playing SWG and Ultima at the time WoW came out). The pr was massive for this game; and everybody that was interested in playing the game on their own merits was telling everybody they played these other games about it.. People lined up like animals to play this game; I passed on it because it just looked stupid to me. Granted the tiny crappy graphics of ultima could not stand up to the fully 3-d polygonal graphics of WoW but I was already established in UO and never cared for bulky polygonal shapes and sizes. It was a couple months down the road before I caved in and bought WoW, and only at the request of many turn coats from my previous mmo friends.

 

  For many WoW was the first mmo they tried; alot of that bulk crowd never played UO or heard of Star Wars galaxies and many were in odd parts of the world that were never viewed as a serious market before somebody with the commercial power of Blizard came along and started viewing those remote areas as a serious business potential. For some WoW was just the next best thing, and for others WoW became the standard by which all other games must be held. To me, it was just a bunch of whiny elitists that couldn't stand the thought of not having the absolute best of everything as quickly as possible despite nobody really knowing anything about the game aside from it was steeped in terrible lore and free of alot of micromanaging associated with other MMO's of the time. Despite this, tons flocked to the game, the launch was somewhat of a disaster in the sense of commodity though; not enough games were shipped; log in servers were bogged down with enourmouse queue times (I personally waited on one occassion 1 hour and 47 minutes just to log in with average wait times of 40-47 minutes and keep in mind this was several months after the game launched; and I did visit a friend on occassions and watched him watch a queue screen like a hawk more than a few times prior to my personal purchase of the game. Tichondrius Server) latency and rubber banding of epic proportions and many many crashes to desktop (though these issues were acknowledged and somewhat improved upon on a nearly hourly basis). The game however was unimaginably commerically successful, and there is no disproving that. If you were to take a game though and release it today with some of the same issues that plagued World of Warcrafts' launch and your gameplay was ridden with terrible controls a horrible UI (which that is 1 thing I liked about WoW, but dislike that it is basically copy and pasted ad nauseum by almost every mmo after it. SWG had a nice hotbar system too, but other parts of that game were just so unrefined it was terrible at times), very difficult in game commerce and bland content; you'd be laughed right off the market much like FFXIV was and many other games that adopt either free to play models or just flop all around. It takes a seriously determined group to drag their stuff out of the fire though, and that's what Square Enix is doing and grabbing inspiration from successful mmo's particularly WoW.

 

  One of the most imporant things though is that Blizzard didn't just make an MMO; they were a wildly successful game developer before that time. One could argue that "It's Final Fantasy" or Square Enix, the name is synonomous with RPG. Ok. What people tend to forget is how divided just the base following of Final Fantasy is and how many reject or fail to accept some of the more recent or past Final Fantasy titles. There are those that claim FFIV is the last great Final Fantasy; others will die before giving up convincing you FFXIII is the RPG that surpasses all others and itself will never EVER be surpassed and you're all LAWLWLWALWLAWWL nubs for thiking otherwise XOXOXOXOXOXO <3. Then you got people that thought both of those games sucked ass and hope both previous groups burn in a chemical fire and need to realize Final Fantasy Tactics is the only Final Fantasy game worth anything. Omg, then there's Final Fantasy XI (which I played a crap ton of myself and enjoyed very much until they lurched into Abyssea and even early Abyssea was entertaining for me). But the divisiveness is there and it's almost a harmful infighting that goes on over which Final Fantasy rules supreme over them all. Another issue is how many of these people were recommending this game to eachother through all this infighting? Not many.. and those that did pick the game up saw the game was terribly executed and poorly managed with bad mistake after mistake made during development stages. This is not even to mention the near racist stance players from different nationalities have towards eachother in this game. Granted I skipped on buying this hunk of hot mess when it came out; but I talked to a few that bought it and they mention this particular aspect more often than other issues that I have mentioned. Granted people who challenge developers or eachother are a boon beyond compare when it comes to designing a game, I think the level it has reached with Final Fantasy has also become it's bane.

 

  Moving right along, the hope I personally have is that yes they do take a few inspirations from World of Warcraft, namely the ease of accessibility; hoping into parties has almost become the "in thing" for games of a MMO nature. Another aspect they need to not skimp on is the ability to be able to glean meaningful outcomes in a short visit to the game without making grouping obsolete. That crafting isn't just a thing on the side that just tides you over until you get a nice drop from a Notorious monster (no mmo I have ever played does the crafting right anymore.. UO Did.. Keyword.. did I will also add I am not the definitive source of crafting isn't done right or not, but personally from the slew of MMO's I've played and rather deeply I make this judgement.); but neither should be superior to the other or perhaps one method of obtaining top tier items yields certain pieces of armor the other method does not offer such as boots and body armors come from crafting.. gloves and capes come from NM's. Who knows? But stop fucking over crafting, seriously. Another thing I hope they take seriously are the introduction of some of the other Final Fantasy races. I've read that Viera may soon be a possiblity; can we hope to see Bangaa or Seeq? Moogles? (I'd totally be a moogle) And for all that's holy and right, not Moombas from FFVIII.

The races I believe could help bring together people from previous Final Fantasy games that may have not been previously interested in the Final Fantasy MMORPG offerings. Why a Taru Taru? Who thought up Elvaans or Galka? What games did these mother fuckers come from!?! Slide in some other race types; Moogles, Espers, Sasquatch anyone!? Add in a few factions that people are interested in. Magitech Knights (I believe the magitech armor is a mount in game for some people), the Judges in some incarnation or another; or get stupid and introduce the Cult of Kefka (ok maybe not); but draw on your previous inspirations as well as invigorate the genre with new fresh ideas. Don't just shit out things without seriously thinking it through.. there are reasons some ideas and systems are not introduced in mmo's and why lots of those ideas that are brought into the market fall flat on their face in execution. I could go on and on; just like most people who have hopes and dreams for this game to be successful can and do; but I hope they don't overlook the real reasons why WoW is as popular as it is (which literally has very little to do with WoW itself).

Originally posted by Magiknight

According to an interview with Naoki Yoshida, the director and producer of FFXIV ARR, the new game will be a WoW clone.  When the original FFXIV was being released a couple years ago the director of that game said that they were using WoW as their model of success.  This is amazing.

 

BM: Final Fantasy XI just had its ten year anniversary and it got a new expansion coming up. You talked about educating the development team at what the standard is at a west MMOs, so with an eye of Final Fantasy XI that is hugely successful, what did they get right what Final Fantasy XIV wasn’t doing?

Yoshida: One of the reasons why Final Fantasy XI was so successful was that the whole development team went and played Everquest and they thought “Okay, we want to do exactly what they did with Final Fantasy XI!” You know there were times where you couldn’t contact any of them because of how much they played *laughs*, but because they did that they had a direction. One of the problems with Final Fantasy XIV was that there wasn’t that direction, they didn’t know what the standard was and they never played World of Warcraft, they didn’t know enough and because they didn’t know enough they couldn’t build something up to the standards of current MMOs. Plus when they started creating Final Fantasy XI there was Final Fantasy X that strongly influenced them.

With Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn we don’t want to create many new things, we first want to start of getting this global standard and then adding that Final Fantasy feel. We want to get the crystal tower in and the gold soucer to get that epic Final Fantasy feeling.

 

maybe they meant from a marketing standpoint, not basic on game play?

i see the game play of

Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn

and it's nothing like wow.

but hey everyone has there own opinion on that.

 

I have no idea where that came from because i have been an avid FF gamer for many years and i have never heard that kind of comment before.The only game that truly copied EQ about 90% so, was Wow not FFXi.

This statement is actually in the PRESENT not in the past as they have definitely tried to take some WOw ideas and put them into both FFXI and FFXIV.

In FFXI the dailies were redesgined as book burns and in FFXIV they were redesigned as Leves and imo LEves are even worse because you can warp right to the quest and back upon completion.

The original FFXI was 99% all Tanaka ,he made the decisions and the design was his aside from the musical score and of course some sounds,textures ect ,the things the director would not be too involved in.

Yoshida making the claim of copying WOW is shown absolutely nowhere in the original FFXI as it is truly the one of a kind RPG that is different from the status quo that is EQ.

FFXI used NO markers anywhere in game,all other games do.FFXI gives no xp for quests,all other games do,that alone shows it was NOT an EQ clone.It is only recently that Square Enix has lost it's marbles on game design.They even began to copy other developers in releasing unfinishjed content,it really pissed me off watching the greatest developer go south with the rest.

Square Enix began to go downhill during the Wings of Goddess xpac,there was some potential there but also some lazy cheap work.

I am looking outside North America for the next best game.Jake Song will give us a decent effort but still not the game i am looking for.I want to see another effort that early FFXI showed me,a game that does not copy everyone else.

To show hoe clueless Square Enix is,their Abyssea idea was an absolute terrible decision ,yet the yhave continued to follow that route and are abotu to release another Abyssea xpac.Cheap lazy effert just rehashing the same idea for 4 straight xpacs now.

Originally posted by Wizardry

I have no idea where that came from because i have been an avid FF gamer for many years and i have never heard that kind of comment before.The only game that truly copied EQ about 90% so, was Wow not FFXi.

This statement is actually in the PRESENT not in the past as they have definitely tried to take some WOw ideas and put them into both FFXI and FFXIV.

In FFXI the dailies were redesgined as book burns and in FFXIV they were redesigned as Leves and imo LEves are even worse because you can warp right to the quest and back upon completion.

The original FFXI was 99% all Tanaka ,he made the decisions and the design was his aside from the musical score and of course some sounds,textures ect ,the things the director would not be too involved in.

Yoshida making the claim of copying WOW is shown absolutely nowhere in the original FFXI as it is truly the one of a kind RPG that is different from the status quo that is EQ.

FFXI used NO markers anywhere in game,all other games do.FFXI gives no xp for quests,all other games do,that alone shows it was NOT an EQ clone.It is only recently that Square Enix has lost it's marbles on game design.They even began to copy other developers in releasing unfinishjed content,it really pissed me off watching the greatest developer go south with the rest.

Square Enix began to go downhill during the Wings of Goddess xpac,there was some potential there but also some lazy cheap work.

I am looking outside North America for the next best game.Jake Song will give us a decent effort but still not the game i am looking for.I want to see another effort that early FFXI showed me,a game that does not copy everyone else.

To show hoe clueless Square Enix is,their Abyssea idea was an absolute terrible decision ,yet the yhave continued to follow that route and are abotu to release another Abyssea xpac.Cheap lazy effert just rehashing the same idea for 4 straight xpacs now.

Who's comment are you referring to?

Originally posted by Wizardry

I have no idea where that came from because i have been an avid FF gamer for many years and i have never heard that kind of comment before.The only game that truly copied EQ about 90% so, was Wow not FFXi.

This statement is actually in the PRESENT not in the past as they have definitely tried to take some WOw ideas and put them into both FFXI and FFXIV.

In FFXI the dailies were redesgined as book burns and in FFXIV they were redesigned as Leves and imo LEves are even worse because you can warp right to the quest and back upon completion.

The original FFXI was 99% all Tanaka ,he made the decisions and the design was his aside from the musical score and of course some sounds,textures ect ,the things the director would not be too involved in.

Yoshida making the claim of copying WOW is shown absolutely nowhere in the original FFXI as it is truly the one of a kind RPG that is different from the status quo that is EQ.

FFXI used NO markers anywhere in game,all other games do.FFXI gives no xp for quests,all other games do,that alone shows it was NOT an EQ clone.It is only recently that Square Enix has lost it's marbles on game design.They even began to copy other developers in releasing unfinishjed content,it really pissed me off watching the greatest developer go south with the rest.

Square Enix began to go downhill during the Wings of Goddess xpac,there was some potential there but also some lazy cheap work.

I am looking outside North America for the next best game.Jake Song will give us a decent effort but still not the game i am looking for.I want to see another effort that early FFXI showed me,a game that does not copy everyone else.

To show hoe clueless Square Enix is,their Abyssea idea was an absolute terrible decision ,yet the yhave continued to follow that route and are abotu to release another Abyssea xpac.Cheap lazy effert just rehashing the same idea for 4 straight xpacs now.

 Yoshida works for SE so he would know and hes right they did use everquest as a sort of template for ffxi

Originally posted by Magiknight

Originally posted by DarknessReign
not to mention FFXI came out 2 years before WoW :) and FFXIV:AAR is getting its ideas from all the major MMORPGS not just WoW Yoshi states that himself. This thread is pointless. Everything's WoW to a WoW fan Even things like FFXI witch came out before WoW is a copy of WoW .

I hate WoW :( I think people were smarter before it came out.

Ah, sounds like you don't like things that are popular mostly due to its popularity. 

You've failed to convince anyone that this is a "WoW clone" and you've also failed to convince anyone that being a "WoW clone" is utterly fail.

You give exmaples like "Wow has hybrids"  Whats a Scholar in FFXI?    Whats a Warrior?  It can tank AND DPS.  Whats a Monk?  Same thing.  

EQ had hybrids.  FFXI and Wow were both influenced by EQ.  

WoW did not invent hybridization.  Nor does hybrid character roles ruin mmos.  

We get it, you are unhappy.   I think this has gone on long enough.

 

Edit:  Wizardry its a well known fact FFXI was based around EQ.  Very well known fact.