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General Discussion Forum » The Pub at MMORPG.COM » The trouble with MMORPG's

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36 posts found
  Magpie

Novice Member

Joined: 1/28/04
Posts: 63

3/08/04 6:04:12 PM#21

What a good thread!!

 

Quote 1:

 

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"Since these games are based around combat. The most important thing is a good combat system that involves the player. You do not have to focus on Solo or Group, you should focus combat. Make it fun and interactive in some way. If combat gets broing, and the game is about combat, then the game is going to get boring.

And, as for grouping, don't require it like most of the game out there.

Most game have it so a group can barely kill monsters a few levels above them because they make it very hard to hit them. I think the way it should be is that if you are lower level you can hit, you just don't do as much damage. That way a gang of lower level characters can outnumber a higher levl MOB and kill it.

A player at equal level to a MOB should be able to solo it, although it should be a tough fight."

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I totally, totally agree.  I still can not believe that a genre of games that focus mainly around combat still has such a basic and dull combat system, especially after years of development.  Is it me or has graphics and a little crafting been the only real innovation so far in these games.  The old click and yawn combat is good enough for your first MMORPG, while your still get off on the 'look at all these other players' aspect, but in the end it’s this grind aspect of combat that drives us to leave in search for the next generation of game.

 

 I've been searching for a few years now.  I'll start a game, bore of the same old combat with a different graphic front end quickly and leave again to join the ever swelling tides of MMORPG drifters.

 

This leaves me to quote 2:

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"The premise is that there's no reason for a new player to start out with 10 HP and an experienced player has 100 HP. An experienced player should have higher skill levels, but why 10 times as much health?"

 

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Bravo .

 

People are people.  It is true you can condition your body to take more damage but when it comes to sword and axe wounds this conditioning makes little difference.  The biggest improvement you can make is to your fitness aka stamina. 

 

A newbie should be able to kill a high level, just not very often.  The certainty in today’s games combat is a big contributor to the yawn factor.  "I know if I attack monster/player x, shut my eyes, put my fingers in my ears and do the achy brakey, when I've finished monster x will be dead'.  Where’s the fun in that?  It seems that game designers are too scared of making these games too hard for the average Joe Bloggs that they have dumbed it all down and removed all the danger.

 

Please, please somebody inject some life back into this stagnate genre.  It could be explosive fun rather that the faint whimper it is today.

 

Sorry got a little carried away there.

 

Magpie.

There are only 10 types of programmers. Those that understand binary and those that don't.

  bsherlock

Novice Member

Joined: 2/21/04
Posts: 491

He who burns twice as bright, burns half as long

3/09/04 3:10:26 AM#22
Must argue ... must say the current way of having more hp's is better ... cant ... damn you all for having such a good arguement .. i will not repent!

Muahahahahahahaha

MUAHAHAHAHAHA

  TaskyZZ

Novice Member

Joined: 12/04/03
Posts: 1481

3/09/04 10:52:31 AM#23

I like the way this threa dis going as well.

I have thought a lot about this and here is how I kinda see it.

Everybody should have a smilar amount of HP's, a warrior should have more than a Wizard, etc, but a 10th level Warrior should have very close to the same as a 2nd level Warrior. The difference should be that when a 10th level arrior gets hit, he is more likely to take very little damage. This in effect shows his skill at parrying the blows, doging, getting out of the way, and only letting the blade scratch him. A higher level warrior should get more attacks in against his opponent to signify that he is more skilled.

Also, a higher level warrior should be harder to hit. He is more skilled at deflecting blows, etc. But, put 3 or 4 lower level warriors against him, and then all of those skills only count against one or two of those foes. The rest get bonuses when attacking him. Hell, put a skilled (Champion) combatant (Ultimate Fighting type guy) in the ring with 4 guys that are just coming up in the ranks. The Champ won't be a guaranteed victor, in fact he would probably lose. No one guy can fight off 4 in the real world. That only happans in Bruce Lee and Chuck Norris movies.

Imagain a boxer like Mike Tyson in the ring with just 2 other good boxers. How do you defend when one guy is in front the other in back??


  bsherlock

Novice Member

Joined: 2/21/04
Posts: 491

He who burns twice as bright, burns half as long

3/09/04 11:47:44 AM#24

The problem with that last post is that most PvE encounters in games tend to be with multiple opponents. Which means that you are going to take lots of damage if such bonus' are given to the opponents.

I like the hit point idea (as much as i shouldnt), but not too sure about the bonus' unless they make the PvE more one on one. Although this would probably be a better thing because the enemies would then be harder rather than just more numerous.

Muahahahahahahaha

MUAHAHAHAHAHA

  TaskyZZ

Novice Member

Joined: 12/04/03
Posts: 1481

3/09/04 12:01:23 PM#25


Originally posted by bsherlock
The problem with that last post is that most PvE encounters in games tend to be with multiple opponents. Which means that you are going to take lots of damage if such bonus' are given to the opponents.
I like the hit point idea (as much as i shouldnt), but not too sure about the bonus' unless they make the PvE more one on one. Although this would probably be a better thing because the enemies would then be harder rather than just more numerous.

Muahahahahahahaha


Well, if you are trying to solo, you should be doing your best to find one on one fights. I think it is realistic that way. If you want to solo, stay out in the wilderness, pick your fights, find some wandering animals, scouts, etc to pray on. I don't think one guy should be considering invading a dungeon, cave, castle, stronghold, etc, it just isn't realistic. Unless of course, you were to implement a good stealth, hide in shadows, sneak, sort of experience for the would be thief/assassin. Then someone good at the trade could get past the hordes of guards at the gate, and sneak in searching for pray alone in their bedroom... but that person should also expect to get gang banged if they get caught sneaking around somewhere they don't belong.

  Anofalye

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/19/03
Posts: 7445

The enemy is so dumb! They believe that WE are the enemy! - A famous orc commander.

3/09/04 12:11:24 PM#26

Originally posted by Alient


Originally posted by Anofalye

This is why you need intelligent level cap on each zone, so anyone above a precise level is of that level instead. You can give him TRIVIAL edge for each level he have above the limit, but not more, in this zone, nobody can be abobe level X, so be it. :)

Not only such level cap make it nice for new player, but the uber experienced player, when he is limited in level, might need to work stuff out with new players...add some level range AAs and you have a perfect setting. :)

I think you are talking about creating area zones in game that would work like the D&D scenarios. This will just cause mini-games within a game. I don't think this is a god solution. I think the best solution is what I call YOH (You're Only Human; of course in a race based system, you might call it something else). The premise is that there's no reason for a new player to start out with 10 HP and an experienced player has 100 HP. An experienced player should have higher skill levels, but why 10 times as much health? In real life, someone could be an experienced martial artist. I'm not, so, he is going to kick my butt. Does it mean he has more health than me? If he got shot in the leg, wouldn't he lose just as much blood as me if I got shot in the leg? So, my premise is that set everybody's base health level the same. The skill levels will still allow experienced players to be able to do things more effictively and faster than a new player, but the experienced players will no longer be a god.




As much as YOH make sense, I saddly have to disagree.

Yes, logic is on your side, I will not argue about that.  But peoples love to see CHANGES that matter.  On this aspect, if someone have 100 HPS and another have 10 HPS, it dont really mean he can take 10 times the same wounds, it actually reflect his skill to avoid damage in a very simplified, easy to check, way.

This is about making fun, and folks like to see changes.  Even if YOH would be meaning the same change, it is not visible, and players does care for visible changes.

Level caps that dont prevent you to do it, but put you of the level limit are a need in such a system for obvious reasons of fun, challenge and not breaking a zone others are hunting.

YOH > Levels where folks get 2000 times more HPS, but even me, will stick to pure raw amount of HPS that change a lot rather then a YOH.

See, when I play EQ, I find nothing more boring then earning stuff that I dont see easily how it help me(most tanking AAs where you mitigated damage and avoid some blows where really ZZZzzz to earn), I need to see, to taste, to know, to feel that it help me and change my life, HPS does that where YOH dont.

Call me superficial, I will nod.  But I need to see HUGE changes and understand easily what is a nice upgrade and what is not, and pure raw HPS provide me that!  This subject is not new.  D&D take the HPS road, Warhammer and Whitewolf took the YOH road.  I love all those 3 games, but Whitewolf and Warhammer never come close to how much motivated I was to gain my level in D&D, not even a few miles close.  Yet, in a purely soloing game, I think I would support a YOH and skill game more then a level with tons of HPS, but in a group, forget it, I will just fall alseep over those skills.  See, even if whitewolf system > D&D system, what make me remain a fan of Whitewolf was the roleplaying, the system side completely play on D&D side despite it lackness, because you see the changes, you understand it, easily, and you know exactly where you are going.  Knowledge is good, later, MUCH later, I come to like whitewolf a lot more as I understand what everything mean, stamina, fortitude and whatever else, but as a noob, I was faaking on whitewolf system(despite the fact it is simple to understand, while D&D is everything but simple, all type of weird rules, yet, you feel the change right away).

- "Coercing? No no, I assure you, they are willing to bring my bags and pay public transportation just to help me, it is true!''

- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - René Levesque about the denial NO on the poll to his dream, project and goal. (Free translation)

  bsherlock

Novice Member

Joined: 2/21/04
Posts: 491

He who burns twice as bright, burns half as long

3/09/04 12:12:35 PM#27

Originally posted by TaskyZZ

Well, if you are trying to solo, you should be doing your best to find one on one fights. I think it is realistic that way. If you want to solo, stay out in the wilderness, pick your fights, find some wandering animals, scouts, etc to pray on. I don't think one guy should be considering invading a dungeon, cave, castle, stronghold, etc, it just isn't realistic. Unless of course, you were to implement a good stealth, hide in shadows, sneak, sort of experience for the would be thief/assassin. Then someone good at the trade could get past the hordes of guards at the gate, and sneak in searching for pray alone in their bedroom... but that person should also expect to get gang banged if they get caught sneaking around somewhere they don't belong.



Well i do agree with that, for realisms sake. But just for the purely fun aspect of the game its a nice feeling to cut down swathes of enemies rather than just beat one of them, and i dont want to have to run away every time i see 4 or 5 goblins/rats. Bosses are fun, but should be rare rather then the norm.

Muahahahahahahaha

MUAHAHAHAHAHA

  bsherlock

Novice Member

Joined: 2/21/04
Posts: 491

He who burns twice as bright, burns half as long

3/09/04 12:15:47 PM#28

Originally posted by Anofalye

Originally posted by Alient


Originally posted by Anofalye

This is why you need intelligent level cap on each zone, so anyone above a precise level is of that level instead. You can give him TRIVIAL edge for each level he have above the limit, but not more, in this zone, nobody can be abobe level X, so be it. :)

Not only such level cap make it nice for new player, but the uber experienced player, when he is limited in level, might need to work stuff out with new players...add some level range AAs and you have a perfect setting. :)

I think you are talking about creating area zones in game that would work like the D&D scenarios. This will just cause mini-games within a game. I don't think this is a god solution. I think the best solution is what I call YOH (You're Only Human; of course in a race based system, you might call it something else). The premise is that there's no reason for a new player to start out with 10 HP and an experienced player has 100 HP. An experienced player should have higher skill levels, but why 10 times as much health? In real life, someone could be an experienced martial artist. I'm not, so, he is going to kick my butt. Does it mean he has more health than me? If he got shot in the leg, wouldn't he lose just as much blood as me if I got shot in the leg? So, my premise is that set everybody's base health level the same. The skill levels will still allow experienced players to be able to do things more effictively and faster than a new player, but the experienced players will no longer be a god.




As much as YOH make sense, I saddly have to disagree.

Yes, logic is on your side, I will not argue about that.  But peoples love to see CHANGES that matter.  On this aspect, if someone have 100 HPS and another have 10 HPS, it dont really mean he can take 10 times the same wounds, it actually reflect his skill to avoid damage in a very simplified, easy to check, way.

This is about making fun, and folks like to see changes.  Even if YOH would be meaning the same change, it is not visible, and players does care for visible changes.

Level caps that dont prevent you to do it, but put you of the level limit are a need in such a system for obvious reasons of fun, challenge and not breaking a zone others are hunting.

YOH > Levels where folks get 2000 times more HPS, but even me, will stick to pure raw amount of HPS that change a lot rather then a YOH.

See, when I play EQ, I find nothing more boring then earning stuff that I dont see easily how it help me(most tanking AAs where you mitigated damage and avoid some blows where really ZZZzzz to earn), I need to see, to taste, to know, to feel that it help me and change my life, HPS does that where YOH dont.

Call me superficial, I will nod.  But I need to see HUGE changes and understand easily what is a nice upgrade and what is not, and pure raw HPS provide me that!  This subject is not new.  D&D take the HPS road, Warhammer and Whitewolf took the YOH road.  I love all those 3 games, but Whitewolf and Warhammer never come close to how much motivated I was to gain my level in D&D, not even a few miles close.  Yet, in a purely soloing game, I think I would support a YOH and skill game more then a level with tons of HPS, but in a group, forget it, I will just fall alseep over those skills.

- "Coercing? No no, I assure you, they are willing to bring my bags and pay public transportation just to help me, it is true!''


I knew there was some reason i liked big increases in hp's.


BRAVO you

Muahahahahahahaha

MUAHAHAHAHAHA

  TaskyZZ

Novice Member

Joined: 12/04/03
Posts: 1481

3/09/04 12:19:36 PM#29

The problem with the "large amount of HP" system is the downtime. You have to HEAL those hitpints, they reflect that you can dodge more attacks, etc, but they also mean that you have more to heal...

If an Ultimate Fighting Champ, and a nerd both get hurt or sick, it takes the same amount of healing ability to heal them both. But in RPG's, it requires a more powerful healer to heal the champ for no reason whatsoever.

There is no reason that a 10th level character knocked to half his health and a 1st level character knocked to half his health should have to rest different amounts of time.

You cut your finger, I cut my finger. Yours heals in 4 hours, mine heals in 2 days... Whats up with that?!?! :)


  bsherlock

Novice Member

Joined: 2/21/04
Posts: 491

He who burns twice as bright, burns half as long

3/09/04 12:27:43 PM#30

Originally posted by TaskyZZ

The problem with the "large amount of HP" system is the downtime. You have to HEAL those hitpints, they reflect that you can dodge more attacks, etc, but they also mean that you have more to heal...

If an Ultimate Fighting Champ, and a nerd both get hurt or sick, it takes the same amount of healing ability to heal them both. But in RPG's, it requires a more powerful healer to heal the champ for no reason whatsoever.

There is no reason that a 10th level character knocked to half his health and a 1st level character knocked to half his health should have to rest different amounts of time.

You cut your finger, I cut my finger. Yours heals in 4 hours, mine heals in 2 days... Whats up with that?!?! :)




I agree with that, but to sort that out you simply have to heal (while resting) in percentages rather than HP's. That means i may rest 5 mins and gain 1000 HP', while you rest for 5 mins and only gain 100HP's, but this may represent 50% of both of our totals.

Muahahahahahahaha

MUAHAHAHAHAHA

  Anofalye

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/19/03
Posts: 7445

The enemy is so dumb! They believe that WE are the enemy! - A famous orc commander.

3/09/04 12:30:08 PM#31

Originally posted by TaskyZZ

The problem with the "large amount of HP" system is the downtime. You have to HEAL those hitpints, they reflect that you can dodge more attacks, etc, but they also mean that you have more to heal...

If an Ultimate Fighting Champ, and a nerd both get hurt or sick, it takes the same amount of healing ability to heal them both. But in RPG's, it requires a more powerful healer to heal the champ for no reason whatsoever.

There is no reason that a 10th level character knocked to half his health and a 1st level character knocked to half his health should have to rest different amounts of time.

You cut your finger, I cut my finger. Yours heals in 4 hours, mine heals in 2 days... Whats up with that?!?! :)



Agree.

This is why the healing process need to work in pure amount of HPS during the fight(like now), but in % of you health outside the fights.  So while you fight a mob, you dont regen to much if the devs dont want this to break the balance, but outside of the fight, should be in pure % of health instead to cut downtime.

See this as the time you need to restore your fighting edge for the during the fight regen, since you used them.  But after, they should come back fast. :)

During the fight, the need of a more powerfull healer can be reflected in actually be able to figure where the champion is to actually land the heal on him rather then where he was.

Logic is not on my side here, yet, this is what peoples love and those explanations are the best solutions I figure out. :)  If peoples love magics in a MMORPG, we need to put magic even if illogical, same with HPS. :)  Then we elaborate a logic system for it. :)

But during the downtime, the healing progress of all toon should be in %, not in pure amount.  pure amount is for during the fight only.

Anyway, I am against downtime in a game, so between the fights, 1 minute wait should be more then enought.  Slow regen for during the fight(and non-stop pulling), very insane regen outside of it. :)  They dont make me roleplay when my toon sleep or go to the bathroom, no need to make me wait either.

The only acceptable downtime are those where I am doing something I care for, waiting on a boat more then once, medding, waiting for a port, waiting for a mob to spawn, those are all unacceptables.  But this mean they have content to keep me busy, luckily for them, I have a very incredible XP quirst!

- "Coercing? No no, I assure you, they are willing to bring my bags and pay public transportation just to help me, it is true!''

- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - René Levesque about the denial NO on the poll to his dream, project and goal. (Free translation)

  DeadThorn

Novice Member

Joined: 3/06/04
Posts: 124

Every so often, I just want to hurt some random person.

3/09/04 2:12:27 PM#32
Heres my only problem with MMORPGS: The price. I'm sorry, but you already payed the original price to get the game, but why the hell would you make people pay to play it?! Thats bull crap damnit! BULL CRAP! I mean, I love the social aspects and the fighting and all that fun stuff...But I just hate the fact I have to pay to do that stuff. Not fun >:@

Here we go, the world is spining, when it stops, its just beging, sun comes up, we laugh and cry, so goes down, and we all die...-Samara Morgan "The Ring"

---------------------------------------
People say I'm weird for being a proud Nerd. I say people are weird for being proudly normal. FREAKS!

  ChronicRick

Novice Member

Joined: 2/06/04
Posts: 576

"Speak when you are angry and you will make the best speech you will ever regret."
-Ambrose Bierce

3/09/04 2:15:58 PM#33

Originally posted by DeadThorn
Heres my only problem with MMORPGS: The price. I'm sorry, but you already payed the original price to get the game, but why the hell would you make people pay to play it?! Thats bull crap damnit! BULL CRAP! I mean, I love the social aspects and the fighting and all that fun stuff...But I just hate the fact I have to pay to do that stuff. Not fun >:@

Here we go, the world is spining, when it stops, its just beging, sun comes up, we laugh and cry, so goes down, and we all die...-Samara Morgan "The Ring"


Your paying the salaries of the hardworking GM's and game designers who constantly update these games.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


Give me your lunch money.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

  Hnlecter

Novice Member

Joined: 6/07/03
Posts: 14

3/09/04 2:21:06 PM#34
If you can't shell out at a max 15 bucks a month for the game you shouldn't be buying games at all much less paying for an internet connection. 15 dollars isn't that much, hell even  if you live in your parents basement, smoke pot, and are a complete loser you could earn $20 by mowing lawns.

  TheThriller

Novice Member

Joined: 3/07/04
Posts: 187

Like maple syrup, Canada's evil oozes over the United States.

3/09/04 2:23:22 PM#35

Originally posted by Hnlecter
If you can't shell out at a max 15 bucks a month for the game you shouldn't be buying games at all much less paying for an internet connection. 15 dollars isn't that much, hell even  if you live in your parents basement, smoke pot, and are a complete loser you could earn $20 by mowing lawns.


Is that a cry for help?...come here lil' buddy, give me a hug. *hugs* ...its gunna be okay, we wont let them hurt you..

If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason.
--Jack Handy

If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason.
--Jack Handy

  Hnlecter

Novice Member

Joined: 6/07/03
Posts: 14

3/10/04 5:34:04 PM#36

I can't tell if that is an insult because I think people who bitch about a 10 dollar fee probably aren't allowed to get P4P games because their parents say no. Or they are just really really cheap.

Or is this just some irrelevant comment to earn +1 to your post count?

Please explain if you do I will offer man sex.

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