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General Discussion Forum » The Pub at MMORPG.COM » Design element that has hurt recent MMORPGs

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57 posts found
  ReallyNow10

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/11/10
Posts: 1647

Don't give us stories. Give us worlds and we will make our own stories.

 
OP  7/01/13 4:53:01 PM#1

This

 

--------------------------------------------------->

 

It's called a line.  And the devs have been engineering gameplay so that you are always following it.

This is changing.  

AAA PVE fantasy sandbox MMORPG's are on their way.

  centkin

Elite Member

Joined: 10/01/10
Posts: 806

7/01/13 6:04:00 PM#2
This began with the unified starting zone instead of everyone's race having a unique starter area and flavor to the game and ended with the micromanagement of the raiding class such that they had the exact equipment the devs wanted them to have rather than having some choice in style.
  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 7246

7/01/13 6:08:19 PM#3
separate with worlds with different rule sets.

When I eat chocolate chip pie it just doesn't feel like chocolate chip cookies. The texture, the consistency, it's just not the same and this is disappointing.

  Gorwe

Elite Member

Joined: 9/16/11
Posts: 1807

7/01/13 6:14:20 PM#4

And Thank Asuryan that it is!

I am sick n tired of that thing.

  zevni78

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/02/10
Posts: 1121

7/01/13 6:18:40 PM#5
Originally posted by centkin
This began with the unified starting zone instead of everyone's race having a unique starter area and flavor to the game and ended with the micromanagement of the raiding class such that they had the exact equipment the devs wanted them to have rather than having some choice in style.

Say what you will about WoW, at least they gave us great starting zones, (though the last 2 expansions were so linear I couldnt get through them), though I think sandox isnt needed for the lvling part, as GW2 and the dynamic elements and instant adventures of Rift help to reduce linear-itis. As to endgame, I remember in RO when PVP was what most people did, and we had all sorts of odd gear, I miss those chaotic days. Can you make PVE endgame without dev dictated limits?

 

This is a weird period, we all know a huge wave of sandboxes is coming and so few themeparks, that the mmo climate will be un-recognizable soon, yet here we are, in this waiting limbo. I will miss certain themeparks, I hope their devs get the hint and sandbox them up a bit, or it may be hard going back after some AA or EQN.

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3201

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

7/01/13 6:21:52 PM#6

While I like both centkin's and bcbully's reply, let me add:
Max level in 100 or so hours.

That has made "the journey" nothing but a chore and gives the "end game" too much focus.

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  zevni78

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/02/10
Posts: 1121

7/01/13 6:27:08 PM#7
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

While I like both centkin's and bcbully's reply, let me add:
Max level in 100 or so hours.

That has made "the journey" nothing but a chore and gives the "end game" too much focus.

Yep, that too, back to RO, we had a lvl cap of 348 and no quests, now that was a grind, they never focused on endgame that much, instead they added more lvling zones and more classes to use them as, switching to WoW after that was a shock.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

7/01/13 6:48:55 PM#8

All that matters to players is gameplay quality.

  • Interesting decisions are a big part of that.
  • Games can have interesting decisions while being completely linear -- unless you want to try to convince most players they didn't have fun playing Portal.
So fixating on lines is pretty irrelevant.
 
In most cases, depending on the "line", a line doesn't reduct the amount of interesting decisions a game offers.  When it does, sure it's bad.  When it doesn't, no harm has been done.  
  zevni78

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/02/10
Posts: 1121

7/01/13 7:00:21 PM#9
Originally posted by Axehilt

All that matters to players is gameplay quality.

  • Interesting decisions are a big part of that.
  • Games can have interesting decisions while being completely linear -- unless you want to try to convince most players they didn't have fun playing Portal.
So fixating on lines is pretty irrelevant.
 
In most cases, depending on the "line", a line doesn't reduct the amount of interesting decisions a game offers.  When it does, sure it's bad.  When it doesn't, no harm has been done.  

A "line" destroys immersion if your supposed to be exploring an open world, and it ruins re-playability with alts. I want freedom, spontainious variation, hard to get that in a linear context. Portal isnt an mmo, lines always feel too single player, that is why more and more are failing to complete PVE lvling in games like WoW, even if it's open world, it might as well not be.

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19097

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

7/01/13 7:04:52 PM#10
Originally posted by zevni78
Originally posted by centkin
This began with the unified starting zone instead of everyone's race having a unique starter area and flavor to the game and ended with the micromanagement of the raiding class such that they had the exact equipment the devs wanted them to have rather than having some choice in style.

Say what you will about WoW, at least they gave us great starting zones, (though the last 2 expansions were so linear I couldnt get through them), though I think sandox isnt needed for the lvling part, as GW2 and the dynamic elements and instant adventures of Rift help to reduce linear-itis. As to endgame, I remember in RO when PVP was what most people did, and we had all sorts of odd gear, I miss those chaotic days. Can you make PVE endgame without dev dictated limits?

 

This is a weird period, we all know a huge wave of sandboxes is coming and so few themeparks, that the mmo climate will be un-recognizable soon, yet here we are, in this waiting limbo. I will miss certain themeparks, I hope their devs get the hint and sandbox them up a bit, or it may be hard going back after some AA or EQN.

Don't start waving goodbye to theme parks too soon,  I suspect that many of the up and coming so called sand box games will bear far more similarity to WOW than UO, SWG or EVE even.

 

 

Arrogant, Dismissive, Elitist, you speak as if these are bad things?
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3201

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

7/01/13 7:08:23 PM#11


Originally posted by zevni78

Originally posted by Axehilt
All that matters to players is gameplay quality.
  • Interesting decisions are a big part of that.
  • Games can have interesting decisions while being completely linear -- unless you want to try to convince most players they didn't have fun playing Portal.

So fixating on lines is pretty irrelevant.

In most cases, depending on the "line", a line doesn't reduct the amount of interesting decisions a game offers.  When it does, sure it's bad.  When it doesn't, no harm has been done.  



A "line" destroys immersion if your supposed to be exploring an open world, and it ruins re-playability with alts. I want freedom, spontainious variation, hard to get that in a linear context. Portal isnt an mmo, lines always feel too single player, that is why more and more are failing to complete PVE lvling in games like WoW, even if it's open world, it might as well not be.

But that is "inefficient." Lines make the game much more efficient.

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  MMOExposed

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 6032

7/01/13 7:51:07 PM#12
Sandboxes are also designed in a line sometimes. That's when they become nothing but an open world Arena sandbox though. 

 

How about some true open ended gameplay with player made content.

  Zorgo

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/05/05
Posts: 2212

Who did wrong? The advertiser hired to sell the game or the consumer who put faith in advertising?

7/01/13 7:59:26 PM#13
Originally posted by MMOExposed
Sandboxes are also designed in a line sometimes. That's when they become nothing but an open world Arena sandbox though. 

 

How about some true open ended gameplay with player made content.

That would depend on the specifics of how that concept is implemented.

If player made content = player ability to place mobs in a set map in an instanced dungeon, I would say 'no thanks'.

If however, it meant players built homes, towns, industry, fortifications and competed or cooperated with neighboring realms over resources, territory, religion and politics - well I'd say count me in.

However, I've never really seen the latter in a true sense.

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2437

World > Quest Progression

7/01/13 10:07:30 PM#14
Linear design has its place and the large majority of what people are playing now are that way. Great for telling a story and you never waste any time because there is always a flashy thing guiding you.

I for one don't need it or want it no matter how fun the combat (gameplay) may be because you can do both. WoW is a good example of just one aspect being really good. I think the gameplay is fun but the overall experience wanes when the pattern never changes. As time has gone I think others want something different as well.

I see it like people who play instruments. Sometimes it's more fun to just have an open jam session than to constantly be playing to the sheet. If you know how to play you don't always need to be told what to do.
  LogicLester

Novice Member

Joined: 3/30/13
Posts: 67

7/01/13 10:13:44 PM#15

Which would you rather read:

 

A book which goes into great detail on the characters and the environment they live in, but very little story.

 

or

 

A book with a great story but not much detail on the characters and their environment.

 

Because of book design limitations, the book can only be a certain number of pages long, with text of a certain size.  And those limits prevent the writer(s) from doing both well in a single book.

 

 

I think we all know the majority will choose the latter, and that's why "sandbox" is still a tiny niche.  It just can't draw people in without a decent story, and it can't keep people without a definite sense of progression.  Traditional "sandbox" has neither, so to be a successful MMO they really can't focus too heavily on those "sandbox" elements.

  ReallyNow10

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/11/10
Posts: 1647

Don't give us stories. Give us worlds and we will make our own stories.

 
OP  7/01/13 10:21:26 PM#16
Originally posted by LogicLester

Which would you rather read:

 

A book which goes into great detail on the characters and the environment they live in, but very little story.

 

or

 

A book with a great story but not much detail on the characters and their environment.

 

Because of book design limitations, the book can only be a certain number of pages long, with text of a certain size.  And those limits prevent the writer(s) from doing both well in a single book.

 

 

I think we all know the majority will choose the latter, and that's why "sandbox" is still a tiny niche.  It just can't draw people in without a decent story, and it can't keep people without a definite sense of progression.  Traditional "sandbox" has neither, so to be a successful MMO they really can't focus too heavily on those "sandbox" elements.

 

Disagree.

The Sandbox games are eliciting HUGE interest, so I think the "niche" comment is off-base.  And most (95%+) of the linear storyline MMO's have been splashing and crashing for 10 years, no matter how polished, how uber the graphics, or how epic the IP.  I mean, really, how can something based upon the LOTR IP and following the three LOTR movies be FTP within two years?  C'mon.  (Hint:  The "line" killed it.)

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2437

World > Quest Progression

7/01/13 10:38:54 PM#17
Well "pure" sandboxes are niche because the world starts out literally empty of anything save players and resources. The MMOs that are branching into this vein (EQN, The Repop, AA) are hybrids of sorts. There is indeed a story to the world, you just aren't lead there by the hand each step of the way.

One reason this sandbox/open world play interest me is because of all the fantasy books I read. I always thought how I would like to make my own story like the ones I was reading in an MMO sense. Most up to now are just like a preprinted book that is not nearly written as well. Making your own story inside of a bigger storyline seems more adventurous.
  Stormsone

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/23/09
Posts: 41

7/01/13 10:43:40 PM#18
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 


Originally posted by zevni78

Originally posted by Axehilt
All that matters to players is gameplay quality.

  • Interesting decisions are a big part of that.
  • Games can have interesting decisions while being completely linear -- unless you want to try to convince most players they didn't have fun playing Portal.

So fixating on lines is pretty irrelevant.

 

In most cases, depending on the "line", a line doesn't reduct the amount of interesting decisions a game offers.  When it does, sure it's bad.  When it doesn't, no harm has been done.  



A "line" destroys immersion if your supposed to be exploring an open world, and it ruins re-playability with alts. I want freedom, spontainious variation, hard to get that in a linear context. Portal isnt an mmo, lines always feel too single player, that is why more and more are failing to complete PVE lvling in games like WoW, even if it's open world, it might as well not be.

But that is "inefficient." Lines make the game much more efficient.

 

Yes lines are efficient but as everyone should know circles are stronger. If getting to point a from point b is all you care about.... then carry on and keep supporting the same old same old. I for one would like to take a step in a new direction, I do have my doubts about the upcoming mmo's but I hope they are wrong and turn out to be a step in the right direction.

  hayes303

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/13/04
Posts: 361

7/01/13 10:45:22 PM#19

Item inflation and LFG finders. Killing them dead.

  ReallyNow10

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/11/10
Posts: 1647

Don't give us stories. Give us worlds and we will make our own stories.

 
OP  7/01/13 10:49:24 PM#20
Originally posted by Aelious
Well "pure" sandboxes are niche because the world starts out literally empty of anything save players and resources. The MMOs that are branching into this vein (EQN, The Repop, AA) are hybrids of sorts. There is indeed a story to the world, you just aren't lead there by the hand each step of the way.

One reason this sandbox/open world play interest me is because of all the fantasy books I read. I always thought how I would like to make my own story like the ones I was reading in an MMO sense. Most up to now are just like a preprinted book that is not nearly written as well. Making your own story inside of a bigger storyline seems more adventurous.

That is kind of a point.  A story to the world = lore and is in no way player pre-destiny.  By storyline MMO's, I mean the ones where your whole character life is scripted out from Noobie-zone to final fight with the big-bad-baddie, and predetermined cutscenes in between.  A script placed in your hands, basically.  That kind of story sucks, IMO.  However, lore and world story are great and fit equally well in sandbox or non-sandbox games.

A sandbox need not be empty, just free ranged and mutable to some degree, and the free range (i.e., free roaming) aspect is more my hope and concern, anyway.  I don't have to build towns, I just want the hand-holding and directing to end.

And your point about the fantasy books is spot on.  The main theme I see across nearly all of them is FREEDOM.  You have no 9-5, no appointments, you can just put on your cloak, strap on a sword, grab your walking staff and head out the door, indeed travel cross-continent, all at will (and within your character's physical abilities, of course.)

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