Trending Games | World of Warcraft | Guild Wars 2 | WildStar | EverQuest

  Network:  FPSguru RTSguru
Login:  Password:   Remember?  
Show Quick Gamelist Jump to Random Game
Members:2,900,894 Users Online:0
Games:754  Posts:6,270,810
Rift (Rift)
Trion Worlds | Official Site
MMORPG | Genre:Fantasy | Status:Final  (rel 03/01/11)  | Pub:Trion Worlds
PVP:Yes | Distribution:Download | Retail Price:Free | Pay Type:Free | Monthly Fee:Free
System Req: PC | Out of date info? Let us know!

General Discussion Forum » The Pub at MMORPG.COM » If sub games make more money, why are they all going F2P?

10 Pages First « 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 » Last Search
193 posts found
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20158

6/30/13 5:25:42 PM#101
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Witten
Why are you buying into a game made to empty your wallet?

I do not. That is why i play F2P games. So far, i spent exactly zero on them.

one modern philosopher once said that to understand if an idea or action is good or bad, simply imagine everyone in the world doing it at once and the answer will be obvious.

so...let's picture f2p MMOs where everyone spends exactly zero.

 

-either they live from in-game advertising. not a big deal in sci-fi, problem in fantasy. [p.s. I wish this was tried once. I can see a Grand Theft Auto mmo where real car brands and various bilboards and product placements are integrated. Would driving real-named cars really be immersion-breaking? or driving past a pepsi bilboard?]

-or they don't live period.

 

 

Why picture something that is not realty? We already know that there are whales who pay through the roof.

Let's picture many players spend exactly zero, and a few whales pays through the roof .....

hmm .. it looks like a great situation .. for the free players.

 

  tkoreaper

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/03/09
Posts: 421

6/30/13 6:12:47 PM#102
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Witten
Why are you buying into a game made to empty your wallet?

I do not. That is why i play F2P games. So far, i spent exactly zero on them.

one modern philosopher once said that to understand if an idea or action is good or bad, simply imagine everyone in the world doing it at once and the answer will be obvious.

so...let's picture f2p MMOs where everyone spends exactly zero.

 

-either they live from in-game advertising. not a big deal in sci-fi, problem in fantasy. [p.s. I wish this was tried once. I can see a Grand Theft Auto mmo where real car brands and various bilboards and product placements are integrated. Would driving real-named cars really be immersion-breaking? or driving past a pepsi bilboard?]

-or they don't live period.

 

 

Why picture something that is not realty? We already know that there are whales who pay through the roof.

Let's picture many players spend exactly zero, and a few whales pays through the roof .....

hmm .. it looks like a great situation .. for the free players.

 

Planetside 1 tried the in-game advertising, but it didn't last very long because people would just find a why to block the advertisements.

  NetSage

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/20/10
Posts: 1014

6/30/13 6:14:53 PM#103
They don't necessarily make more money but make money and a more consistent rate.  For example I'm sure RIFT saw a boost in income  the first month of F2P but how long will that boost actually last?
  Chrisbox

Elite Member

Joined: 7/15/10
Posts: 1595

6/30/13 6:17:15 PM#104

They aren't good enough to hold a profitable and stable playerbase. That is why.

 

Played-Everything
Playing-FFXIV:ARR

  Robokapp

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4754

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

6/30/13 6:20:28 PM#105
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Witten
Why are you buying into a game made to empty your wallet?

I do not. That is why i play F2P games. So far, i spent exactly zero on them.

one modern philosopher once said that to understand if an idea or action is good or bad, simply imagine everyone in the world doing it at once and the answer will be obvious.

so...let's picture f2p MMOs where everyone spends exactly zero.

 

-either they live from in-game advertising. not a big deal in sci-fi, problem in fantasy. [p.s. I wish this was tried once. I can see a Grand Theft Auto mmo where real car brands and various bilboards and product placements are integrated. Would driving real-named cars really be immersion-breaking? or driving past a pepsi bilboard?]

-or they don't live period.

 

 

Why picture something that is not realty? We already know that there are whales who pay through the roof.

Let's picture many players spend exactly zero, and a few whales pays through the roof .....

hmm .. it looks like a great situation .. for the free players.

 

answer to red is in green.

  sportsfan

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/20/12
Posts: 382

6/30/13 6:35:43 PM#106

AAA type MMORPG's can not support free to play.

But all these games went free to play as a last resort to knock off some money from the fans.

 

Do NOT be fooled, F2P doesn't work for AAA type MMO's as these are too costly to make.

What you see is B2P games that were initially launched as subscription based games (and developped) are turning into F2P, but no one would make them anymore in the long run.

 

tldr: F2P is good for little things, like Facebook games, iPad games, small things.

Real open world MMORP's are too costly to make to support F2P in the long run.

 

 

It is a shake out really.

 

 

 

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10885

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

6/30/13 7:34:54 PM#107


Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by lizardbones Sub game make more money at release. F2P games make more money long term. So games release as P2P, then go F2P to maximize the money made. I suppose it's possible for a F2P game to make a bunch of money at release too, but we haven't really had a good example of it.
Your example of it is Guild Wars 2, but to acknowledge that would cause several heads around here to explode.
GW2 isn't a F2P game. It's B2P, which is different. It has the advantage of collecting a lot of the initial sales, with the longevity of F2P games. It's really more like the P2P games that go F2P than it is like a F2P game.  
Actually, it is a F2P game in every aspect of its design and monetization, but with a front loaded client fee.

"It's B2P, which is different."

That statement is the greatest gift that MMO gamers ever gave the industry.




You've described how it's different. The front loaded client fee is the difference.

I can play all the way through SWToR without paying a client fee, but if I want to play all the way through GW2, I have to pay the client fee. SWToR is F2P and GW2 is B2P. The monetization of B2P and F2P is different. Since the monetization is different, GW2 is not a proof of F2P being a good model for both initial and long term money gain.

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17380

6/30/13 7:41:14 PM#108
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Witten
Why are you buying into a game made to empty your wallet?

I do not. That is why i play F2P games. So far, i spent exactly zero on them.

one modern philosopher once said that to understand if an idea or action is good or bad, simply imagine everyone in the world doing it at once and the answer will be obvious.


 

 

yeah, I like that. Makes a lot of sense to me and is a pretty good way to frame things. No matter what the subject.

  ThomasN7

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/17/07
Posts: 6671

"Had to be me. Someone else might have gotten it wrong.” - Mordin Solus

6/30/13 7:41:17 PM#109
Other than WoW and EvE, all other mmos aren't good enough to warrant a subscription. That is why their subscription models have  failed. Now you are getting a 2nd or 3rd rate mmos for f2p which people feel more comfortable playing and paying when they feel like. It sucks playing a crappy mmo that has a sub fee attached to it.
  IrishChai

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/31/11
Posts: 529

6/30/13 7:51:20 PM#110

The whole reason so many MMOs went F2P is because they expect to make MORE money than if they were P2P. Not less. Where do you get the idea that sub games always make more money? They don't, except for WoW, and that's been a huge exception for MMOs across the board in profit. MMO companies learned pretty fast that they aren't going to earn the money that WoW is earning, and games such as LOTRO & SWTOR have been discovering that they earn a higher profit via microtransactions by bringing in a lot more people playing for free that are later willing to buy extras for their characters. Subscription games were failing miserably and being cancelled or shutdown left and right because they didn't earn enough to sustain them, so something needed to change and LOTRO was one of the first to prove a new method worked.

  Ryowulf

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/28/05
Posts: 671

6/30/13 8:06:22 PM#111

FTP/BTP can and has supported AAA titles.  Where is this idea ftp doesn't make money?  ftp makes more money than subs, unless you have a huge sub base.  In this itunes world, people are willing to spent a bit here and there even though it might add up to more than 15 a month.

You know once upon a time people bought albums and cds. You can cry about the long gone days, but it doesn't change the reality of how things work now.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10885

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

6/30/13 8:57:40 PM#112


Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Robokapp

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Witten Why are you buying into a game made to empty your wallet?
I do not. That is why i play F2P games. So far, i spent exactly zero on them.
one modern philosopher once said that to understand if an idea or action is good or bad, simply imagine everyone in the world doing it at once and the answer will be obvious.    
yeah, I like that. Makes a lot of sense to me and is a pretty good way to frame things. No matter what the subject.


If everyone in the world ate potatoes all at once, we'd run out of potatoes the first day and we wouldn't have any french fries until the next crop of potatoes came in.

**

The point is that almost nothing is good if everyone does it, and almost anything can be good in small measures, especially if applied correctly.

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  Robokapp

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4754

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

6/30/13 9:02:14 PM#113
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Robokapp

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Witten Why are you buying into a game made to empty your wallet?
I do not. That is why i play F2P games. So far, i spent exactly zero on them.
one modern philosopher once said that to understand if an idea or action is good or bad, simply imagine everyone in the world doing it at once and the answer will be obvious.    
yeah, I like that. Makes a lot of sense to me and is a pretty good way to frame things. No matter what the subject.


If everyone in the world ate potatoes all at once, we'd run out of potatoes the first day and we wouldn't have any french fries until the next crop of potatoes came in.

**

The point is that almost nothing is good if everyone does it, and almost anything can be good in small measures, especially if applied correctly.

 

we'd grow nothing but potatoes, crop-rotating with industrial textiles. see: asia and rice. but with potatoes. 

  Ozmodan

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/07
Posts: 6738

6/30/13 10:18:21 PM#114
Originally posted by Ryowulf

FTP/BTP can and has supported AAA titles.  Where is this idea ftp doesn't make money?  ftp makes more money than subs, unless you have a huge sub base.  In this itunes world, people are willing to spent a bit here and there even though it might add up to more than 15 a month.

You know once upon a time people bought albums and cds. You can cry about the long gone days, but it doesn't change the reality of how things work now.

The AAA titles I have played that have gone the ftp route tend to keep the sub option around and I think a majority of people who enjoy the game still sub.  Subbing usually makes gameplay easier and more fun, so many do it.  Games that retain the sub option do very well this way.   Assuming since the game is ftp that most people are not subbing is a bad assumption.  Free players generally don't stick around long so you find them mostly at the lower levels.

  Battlerock

Elite Member

Joined: 12/12/11
Posts: 965

6/30/13 10:44:13 PM#115

Once a sub game ages past prime,  f2p is ok. F2p is also ok  if you don't think your game is good enough to merit a sub.  Going f2p for the sake of making the most money, that's when f2p becomes a nuisance and that's when my interest drops out. Keeping my interest is a very hard thing to do. F2p just magnifies the difficult task of keeping my attention.

if it works then so be it, f2p is a big turn off to me though. It such a big turn off I have sold all of my gaming pcs. My gaming habits have begun to diminish greatly, I couldn't seem to let myself become engaged into the games. My gaming time decreased by 50percent. So I sold my pcs. Now  i see all this f2p crap on my ps3. This past week I had 2 total hours of gaming, it used to be a high priority on my list, but I just think the f2p model has wrecked gaming enough for me that for the first time in my life, I can picture myself not even owning a gaming system, not gaming at all, and not really missing or searching for that next great gaming experience .

Look at EQNext coming down the pipe and all the expectation for f2p building, as soon as I heard that, my interest dropped out completely. I just have this voice in my head " why even bother anymore, you know it's just another disappointment and its the only way it could be fun is if you buy into the ripoff f2p cash shop"

 

 

 

  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 4888

6/30/13 10:59:37 PM#116

A lot of people are tossing around a lot of speculations and opinions.

It's really simple. Games that go F2P aren't good enough. That's all there is to it.  If a game is worth it, it will hold subscribers. If it isn't it will not get them or lose them. 

 

Game developers want subs? That's easy. They need to stop making games that suck or leave nothing to work for after a month of play.

It's the sad state of the genre. The next big title has as many threads discussing issues with it's business model than issues with the game itself.

  Po_gg

Elite Member

Joined: 5/12/10
Posts: 2082

7/01/13 12:45:57 AM#117
Originally posted by GeezerGamer

A lot of people are tossing around a lot of speculations and opinions.

It's really simple. Games that go F2P aren't good enough. That's all there is to it.

That is one tossed in speculation as well :)

But I agree, it's really simple. Fendel asked in the title: "If sub games make more money..."  well, they don't. Just look at the whales (and their income, revenue) in the east.

As Sovrath wrote earlier, the advantage in p2p model is the more precise budget and planning:

Originally posted by Sovrath

They don't make more money they make more "consistent" money.

meaning it's easier to budget your game when you have a more solid idea as to how many subs you will have month to month. I imagine they have data that shows trends in sub gains and losses.

but lately f2p's are catching up on that area as well, with regular sales, new items, etc. to "smoothen" the bumps in the income flow. Especially former p2p's, who liked the former stability and planning.

Just look at LotRO, with their accumulated data of 2+ years in freemium territory, I'd bet they have now a pretty consistent income... Planned sales in every week, new horsie in every month (at least during last year, with the mount of <class> series), bigger sale in every 2 months...

  Scot

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5281

7/01/13 2:43:42 AM#118

At some stage in their life cycle a P2P's revenue will go down, these days usually pretty fast. The MMO is then left with accepting that or hoping that going hybrid will revitalise revenue. The issues with having a P2W cash shop are skated over and they just see the £$ signs. Design priorities change, paying to get to top level and making you pay for extra end game content become the games focus.

 

  Malcanis

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/17/09
Posts: 3210

"A very special kind of stupidity"

7/01/13 4:04:15 AM#119
Originally posted by Lobotomist

Several reasons:

1. P2P model is outdated. - You can not charge subscription for a similar game that competitors give for free(ish). This is simple rule of market.

2. Subscription makes more money if you have enough subscribers. - Simply there is profit line where P2P game makes less money than F2P

---

Said that. I dont think F2P is here to stay either.

I think market is moving towards B2P as model that makes more logic both for player and publisher.

 

 

The logical corollary of this is that you can charge a subscription if you make an original game that doesn't have any direct competitors who can offer the same thing. If you're going to release EQ/WoW Clone #2,814 then yeah, it's going F2p even if you blew $50,000,000 on voice acting and effects. If you're going to provide a game experience that no one else can supply, then you can charge a subscription, even if your game was developed by 6 guys in a shed on a budget from mortgaging your grandmother's house.

Give me liberty or give me lasers

  Doogiehowser

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 1954

7/01/13 4:08:21 AM#120
Originally posted by GeezerGamer

A lot of people are tossing around a lot of speculations and opinions.

It's really simple. Games that go F2P aren't good enough. That's all there is to it.  If a game is worth it, it will hold subscribers. If it isn't it will not get them or lose them. 

 

Game developers want subs? That's easy. They need to stop making games that suck or leave nothing to work for after a month of play.

And you are not? 

"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell

"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney

10 Pages First « 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 » Last Search