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General Discussion Forum » The Pub at MMORPG.COM » If sub games make more money, why are they all going F2P?

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193 posts found
  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2481

World > Quest Progression

6/30/13 2:31:44 AM#21
Originally posted by Lobotomist

Several reasons:

1. P2P model is outdated. - You can not charge subscription for a similar game that competitors give for free(ish). This is simple rule of market.

2. Subscription makes more money if you have enough subscribers. - Simply there is profit line where P2P game makes less money than F2P

---

Said that. I dont think F2P is here to stay either.

I think market is moving towards B2P as model that makes more logic both for player and publisher.

 

Great point.  Up front cost to keep the company stable past the "drop" so it can transition into some form of cash shop.  B2P also falls in line with the typical model for consoles, which look to be featuring a lot of MMOs soon.

  Wicoa

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/08/07
Posts: 1614

6/30/13 2:51:25 AM#22

There are  simple reasons why some games go, F2P.  The main reason being that the majority of mmorpg releases have tried in some form to copy the WoW formula and came up short.  Trying  to compete with a Godzilla by releasing a slightly sub par game is not going to cut it.

Once devs have realised all their inhouse marketing hype is crap, they make job cuts and go the only route they know they can to try and up-sell their product.  The chance a F2P gamer drops chump change once a year is better for them than not having that player at all.

I shall illustrate two niche examples with subscription intact:

EVE Online is a sandbox, it has little to no competitors and merrily continues to charge a subscription fee which I and other people are happy to pay for.

Darkfall Online (Unholy Wars).  Aventurine charge more than any other mmorpg I know,  they have a dedicated following that love the full loot pvp and the fps style gameplay.

Those 2 games offer unique experiences and by doing so sustain their business model.  I believe FFXARR will stay a subscription game and I am willing to pay to play that.  I also believe Camelot Unchained will be successful with the subscription model.  They already have a pool of dedicated players who gave them money with no hope of a release date!

Here is a personal fact for you: I now rarely try F2P games, I find them shallow and that they cannot provide me with enough content long term.

If I walked into a bank asking for funding with a great business plan for a low cost point burger and chip chain of fast food restaurants. I would be shut down and told to change my remit fast.  That market is saturated and so is the theme park genre. 

Developers need to have in mind  a realistic population figure, this was not the case with games like SWTOR (thats my guess).

  Wicoa

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/08/07
Posts: 1614

6/30/13 2:57:54 AM#23

 

 

  Doogiehowser

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 1945

6/30/13 3:10:19 AM#24
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by Fendel84M
Originally posted by Robokapp

wow isn't. eve isn't.

 

it's the bad p2p games that go f2p. not all of them.

So in your opinion, WoW and Eve are the only two good P2P MMOs ever made? And since you hate all F2P MMOs... is it your opinion that WoW and Eve are the only two good MMOs ever made, period?

no, in my opinion wow and eve are some good mmo's. you asked why all are going f2p, i gave you two examples that aren't.

 

I don't hate f2p mmo's, just the cash shops. I play a f2p mmo in my eve browser while mining. I think they're great temporary distractions, much like addictinggames.com games are - which are also f2p but without the cash shop. yet not MMOs.

 

so in your opinion, are all p2p mmo's going f2p like your title says ?

 

 

EVE isn't a pure P2P MMO. Majority of people use PLEX to buy sub. That is why they don't need to go F2P.

WOW is the only pure P2P MMO surviving unless you want to count dirt old MMOS like DAOC or FFXI.

OP is talking about the MMOS of recent years and he is right. Giving one or two example show that P2P MMOS is not a viable business move any more. To make a convincing argument one has to show a lot more than just one P2P MMO which has been successful but that is not the case now is it?

"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell

"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney

  keenber

Novice Member

Joined: 7/10/07
Posts: 438

6/30/13 3:25:57 AM#25

I believe f2p model makes a lot more than sub games. I also believe that the reason sub games get better updates than F2P is nothing to do with how much they make but because who is gonna pay a sub if the game doesn't give you something back.

They have to at least make sure bugs are fixed and keep the end gamer happy be that added free content or expansions. F2P doesn't have to do that and also F2P make money from the shop so they are gonna consentrate on making content for the shop more than trying to improve the game.

  Wicoa

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/08/07
Posts: 1614

6/30/13 3:41:32 AM#26

Aren't lineage 1 and 2 sub games too?

Dark age of camelot is still sub

So is warhammer

Plenty of them.

 

There was a good point made though. If you have a subscriber base then they expect regular large updates. F2P games get away with minor maintenance and fanfare very tiny tiny updates. 

  DamonVile

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4909

6/30/13 3:45:27 AM#27
Originally posted by Doogiehowser

EVE isn't a pure P2P MMO. Majority of people use PLEX to buy sub. That is why they don't need to go F2P.

you make it sound like players can buy a sub with in game credits from ccp but that's not really what's going on is it ? Someone has to buy that plex with real money and they sell it to you for credits. So in a sense someone is paying real money for your sub, CCP is still getting their real cash, just not from you. ( I don't play eve so correct me if I have that wrong )

So it is still p2p, they just let someone else pay for it.

  Doogiehowser

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 1945

6/30/13 3:47:13 AM#28
Originally posted by Wicoa

Aren't lineage 1 and 2 sub games too?

Dark age of camelot is still sub

So is warhammer

Plenty of them.

 

There was a good point made though. If you have a subscriber base then they expect regular large updates. F2P games get away with minor maintenance and fanfare very tiny tiny updates. 

OP is talking about now.

Even UO is still P2P isn"t it? but it doesn't say much about recent times because P2P model even though viable udring days of EQ and DAOC isn't that profitable anymore. Too much has changed since days of Lineage. And reason WAR isn't going F2P is because EA has already made its money back on the game so they are either ignoring it or just simply don't see it as potential MMO to bring them any serious profit by going F2P.

"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell

"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney

  ghstwolf

Novice Member

Joined: 3/21/08
Posts: 386

6/30/13 3:47:49 AM#29
Originally posted by Lobotomist

Said that. I dont think F2P is here to stay either.

I think market is moving towards B2P as model that makes more logic both for player and publisher.

 

I wouldn't rule it out, but I doubt B2P is the destination either.

F2P, B2P and P2P each have their strengths, and in a way aren't mutually exclusive.  Granted I see multi-client "games" as a very likely future, with EVE/Dust as a shaky first step.  IMO a F2P timed resource yield game (farmville) attached to a "real" market would do well.  That market would reside in a B2P game that offered tiered packages for VAS.  All 3 models used in one world.

  Doogiehowser

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 1945

6/30/13 3:50:13 AM#30
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by Doogiehowser

EVE isn't a pure P2P MMO. Majority of people use PLEX to buy sub. That is why they don't need to go F2P.

you make it sound like players can buy a sub with in game credits from ccp but that's not really what's going on is it ? Someone has to buy that plex with real money and they sell it to you for credits. So in a sense someone is paying real money for your sub, CCP is still getting their real cash, just not from you. ( I don't play eve so correct me if I have that wrong )

So it is still p2p, they just let someone else pay for it.

I was simply stating that EVE gives option to players. An alternate method to subscribe without using your credit or debit card.

But as far as someone else paying for it..... isn't that how all these F2P/P2P MMO works? someone is always paying for your content if you don't spend your money. But that doesn't mean that a lot of people are not using that 'free' option or method of PLEX to subscribe in case of EVE.

"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell

"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney

  Avanah

Elite Member

Joined: 9/18/04
Posts: 888

6/30/13 3:56:38 AM#31
Originally posted by Fendel84M
Originally posted by Robokapp

wow isn't. eve isn't.

 

it's the bad p2p games that go f2p. not all of them.

So in your opinion, WoW and Eve are the only two good P2P MMOs ever made? And since you hate all F2P MMOs... is it your opinion that WoW and Eve are the only two good MMOs ever made, period?

I'll let the second row of my signature answer that for you. :)

TGIF...Thank God I'm Female

"Those with the most Opinions tend to have the fewest Facts"

  DamonVile

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4909

6/30/13 3:59:45 AM#32
Originally posted by Doogiehowser

 

But as far as someone else paying for it..... isn't that how all these F2P/P2P MMO works? someone is always paying for your content if you don't spend your money. But that doesn't mean that a lot of people are not using that 'free' option or method of PLEX to subscribe in case of EVE.

No not really. In a free to play if you don't pay you can still play. Plex just gives you an alternative to the sub. You have to do one or the other. There's still no "free ride " in eve. If anything plex lets you sell your time, it's more of a counter to gold selling than a play for free option. You still have to work for it to play.

  Wizardry

Elite Member

Joined: 8/27/04
Posts: 6830

Perhaps tomorrow will be better.

6/30/13 4:02:27 AM#33

Op you answered your own question.They go f2p because nobody would play their game if subbed,or numbers would be so low they wouldn't make any money.

What scares me about this industry is that games are dying out really fast now and a saturated market does not help.However the problem is that devs know these games are not lasting,so they will design them accordingly,meaning shallow games with no longevity built into them.Designing a cheaper game can support a f2p weather it starts that way or ends up that way,so my point is devs are going to be making a lot more f2p quality games than higher quality sub based games.

Also everyone knows a low population game is as good as done,going free to play allows games a chance of having a decent population so that the spenders will stick around.When population dies right out even the spenders leave,which is sort of what happened to AOC,it was a good game but everyone filed out  in a follow the leader style.

 

http://www.youtube.com/user/Napolianboo#p/u/15/rCYLLQCNc1w
Samoan Diamond

  kedara

Novice Member

Joined: 6/19/09
Posts: 52

Just because you can't be nice, doesn't mean you shouldn't.

6/30/13 4:03:11 AM#34

Free art is still art. MMORPGs are essentially giant art galleries, you still have to pay to see the rarest paintings, but the seemingly more appealing "free" prints, are still just as enticing to most people. It all depends on how much you are willing to spend to keep the ones you like best.

The value of a pay2play model is only as great as the demand for it. Personally, I always have and probably always will play free2play games far more often than anything I have to pay extra for. Then again my first RPG was Mario. :/

  Agent_Joseph

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/11/06
Posts: 916

6/30/13 4:07:09 AM#35

it is tricky, peoples love word  ,,Free,, but in real nothing is free.

only EVE is real MMO...but I am impressive with TSW

  Doogiehowser

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 1945

6/30/13 4:07:18 AM#36
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by Doogiehowser

 

But as far as someone else paying for it..... isn't that how all these F2P/P2P MMO works? someone is always paying for your content if you don't spend your money. But that doesn't mean that a lot of people are not using that 'free' option or method of PLEX to subscribe in case of EVE.

No not really. In a free to play if you don't pay you can still play. Plex just gives you an alternative to the sub. You have to do one or the other. There's still no "free ride " in eve. If anything plex lets you sell your time, it's more of a counter to gold selling than a play for free option. You still have to work for it to play.

And that is exactly what i said. However i don't see much difference between the two. In both cases someone else is using their real money to pay for you. 

"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell

"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney

  Arthasm

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/26/09
Posts: 693

6/30/13 4:13:20 AM#37
Cause they sux so bad? 
  sanshi44

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/12/09
Posts: 1057

6/30/13 4:14:54 AM#38
Originally posted by Fendel84M

I'm not against P2P and I'm not against F2P I like all models(to some extent).

But I hear it tossed around a lot, that P2P games make more money and get more updates and are hence better. If this is true, why are almost all the P2P games going F2P? Do they just hate money?

Even Rift, which was every P2P die hard's anthem. "Look at Rift! That game pumps out so much content because it is P2P!" well...they went F2P. Were they tired of making all that money?

Other than WoW, Eve is one of the only hold outs with a sub. But even that game allows players to basically buy in game currency through the plex system. (buy tons of plex and sell it all in game) so it's not a pure P2P game with everyone equal regardless of money spent.

I am just curious what the reasoning here is. The P2P games are better, because they make more money, yet they all have to go F2P. Something feels off...

Part in red Guildwars 2 probaly gets the most updates out of every game out there atm monthly large patches with new content and dunguens that are just for the event going on.

  emperorwings

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/25/06
Posts: 1383

6/30/13 4:22:46 AM#39

Pre WoW gaming back when only little white kids with big glasses played and communities were much more closer and anything over 100k playerbase was considered a success.

 

1999 - 2000 UO (didn't like being skill capped but liked skilling back then) 2000-2004 Dransik then later Dransik Classic  Throw in Runescape Classic too for 4 or 5 years. Was playing Runescape and Dransik at the same time at some point. No need to count The Realm, threshold-rpg.org, Drakkar or M59 or anything pre 1999 since internet was pay by the hour but still count as being subbed I guess. Probably played EQ in there somewhere too.

 

I've always played more than 1 MMO at the same time. All these games gone f2p now UO private, Dransik changed company use a token system to buy VIP, Runescape uses squeels, M59 runs off donation etc. So, the point is instead of getting only a sub a month people might spend more if they want more and can possibly get 6 months or a years worth of a sub out of a person in a shorter amount of time.

 

So, either because it sucks or because they want more money.

This isn't a signature, you just think it is.

  MyownGod

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/09/09
Posts: 212

6/30/13 4:36:58 AM#40
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by Fendel84M
Originally posted by Robokapp

wow isn't. eve isn't.

 

it's the bad p2p games that go f2p. not all of them.

So in your opinion, WoW and Eve are the only two good P2P MMOs ever made? And since you hate all F2P MMOs... is it your opinion that WoW and Eve are the only two good MMOs ever made, period?

no, in my opinion wow and eve are some good mmo's. you asked why all are going f2p, i gave you two examples that aren't.

 

I don't hate f2p mmo's, just the cash shops. I play a f2p mmo in my eve browser while mining. I think they're great temporary distractions, much like addictinggames.com games are - which are also f2p but without the cash shop. yet not MMOs.

 

so in your opinion, are all p2p mmo's going f2p like your title says ?

 

 

Funny, you mentioned WoW and Eve, this 2 mmo have not become an entertainment source of gaming anymore, it have became a lifestyle. The only reason why they are still p2p cause, obv the amount of subsribers *duh*, till they start losing lots of revenue, they'll bill your bank account/credit card monthly, to use it for their own leisure. The only p2p that was actually good and was not overwhelmed by simplicity was SWG, and UO and is dead/dying, although there's an emu for SWG. I do not hate P2P, in fact I'm looking forward for Repopulation.

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