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General Discussion Forum » The Pub at MMORPG.COM » A true compromise on 30 day subscriptions.

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132 posts found
  User Deleted
5/10/13 4:57:34 AM#81

can see this going over well now

"in the middle of a raid. HEY what happened to bob?! Oh he'll be back in a minute he forgot to use his token before coming here. (bob clicks on token and tries to rejoin the raid but can't) BOB! NOOO!

Yeah this just wouldn't work.

And not all F2P games are equal or bad. The freemium ones are usually the only ones that are harmful to the pockets of man.

  Yaevindusk

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/05/10
Posts: 1129

Logic, reason and fact do not supersede human nature. Ignorance reigns without justice.

5/10/13 4:58:46 AM#82
Originally posted by Panthien
Originally posted by Yaevindusk
Originally posted by Panthien
Originally posted by Yaevindusk

 

It depends on how that is marketed and how the system actually is.  I wouldn't pay $20 for 30 24 hour tokens myself simply because I'll likely be losing out on 22 hours since I only play a few hours a day (if that).  If that's the point, then I'd prefer the $15 a month (that I currently boycott simply because I've spent tens of thousands of dollars in monthly fees since 1997 on all kinds of games).  As a casual player myself, I'd end up paying for more as I'd activate it every day just for a couple of hours.  It wouldn't be reasonable and it would be torn a new one on reddit and other places, with people making videos against it as well.  Then we'd all be wary of new payment models and future products will suffer from it.  It's almost like that whole DRM / cash shop thing what with one bad system ruins the thoughts of such by the majority for the future.

If the game simply gave a month of free play (as it is now) and then 720 hours of game time (that only expired when you played) for $20-25 then I might consider it and option.  But anything the is perceived as an increase in price is something that will be met with resistance.  So it wouldn't be a good business move to try such unless they had an amazing marketing team that could walk on water and speak words of sweet nectar.

Going by a pay per hour system would be subjected to the same principle. IF a company would impliment a system like this, they will probebly offer both pay per hour and monthly subs, depending on your hours played, pay per hour can be cheaper or more expensive, effectively giving benifid in these systems for both company and customer.

So for arguement sake, if you play upto 350 hours a month, the pay per hour system would be cheaper if you play beyone that its cheaper to go by monthly fee.

Here is what I edited in a little while ago in my last post:

Also there is the point in that, why should we expect to pay more for games when there are so many choices out there?

 

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/21960-a-misconception-on-the-misconception-of-mmo-costs/

The whole issue that I think you're trying to point out is that MMOs are an expensive endeavor, and that investors want something that rips people off.  That only the big whales will be able to enter this market, and why would they if they couldn't blatantly take our money?  But that's starting to become archaic; the community is starting to wise up, and soon they will need to be on the defensive as to how they make their earning and to appease the great MMO community beast that is rising up.

 

 

The prospects and reasons why this is happening need to be appeased.  Simply creating a new coat of paint for something will not solve the issues we're having.  People will still have access to other games, and new games will still be released with better and cheaper systems.  In the interest of perserving a monthly fee of any sort, one needs to look beyond the cash symbols in their eyes and look to the consumer.  The customer is always right, and those who only invest in this business with intent to rip of customers will soon need to get out if they don't understand how payment models are evolving.  

 

When you take a look at the future of this genre, and the future of gaming in general you need to consider many things.  One thing that we write off is the console fanbase.  Consoles for a MMO?  Haha!  That's not going to happen, right?  Except that it might.  The MMO has reached it's peak how it is now and with computer based players.  It needs new blood, and where better to get it from than the systems that  are starting to focus on social structures and internet connectivity.  In recent new we hear that the new generation games will have "free to play games" ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EiXnqOUPEw ).  This should be alarming and an eye opener as to what implications this could have for all genres (especially since we'll have so much more online games, and with technology the line between MMO and Online game will be blurred as having 200+ people in one area may become the norm at one point).  

 

Add to that the fact that the PS4 has been confirmed to have these social aspects, internet games, having technology available whereby you could jump in and actually play the game for your friend (etc), we have a potentially powerful system and a host of new potential players.  What are these players used to?  Well, microtransactions (cash shops) and games that are Buy to Play.  Most are skeptical of MMOs simply because you have to rent the game you play.  I go into depth with this in my blog:  http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/Yaevindusk/032013/24782_A-brief-analysis-of-MMOs-and-contextual-payment-plans-Why-World-of-Warcraft-may-want-The-Elders-Scrolls-to-go-P2P-update-2

 

We already see this happening with Defiance and Final Fantasy XIV A Realm Reborn (a game that was remade and definitely needs to remake the cash with a subscription), and these are with ancient hardware and have nothing like the (very computer based) specs of the new generation of consoles.  We also had those rumors that the Xbox 720 will have always online requirements (which again are rumors, but one of their employees didn't see why that was a bad thing).

 

As a whole they could continue to try and rip people off or they can adapt to the situations at hand and take full well advantage of the future as it comes.  Technology is evolving, bandwidth costs are minimal and a new age is upon us.

 

A minor detail here, Bioshock infinate for instance is estimated to have 4.6milion units sold by the end of the year. A mmo feels lucky to reach 2 million copies, most dont even get past 1 million..

Setting production cost (for arguement sake with advertisement etc etc) 100,000,000usd, they need to sell 2,000,000 units to break even (asuming game sells for 50usd)

Seeing how few mmo's actually getting past 1million units sold, they dont even get half their investment back. Granted the production cost of an mmo vary, Rift for instance was estimated to have costed 50 million and sold ~1 million units. So they broke even. Without a penny to spare, so the sub's really turned into their only actual reward for their risk and investment.

So no, I really dont agree with the pure rip-off statement, even though they actually make a profit!

 

 

 

Though that's just to remake the costs involved.  You also have to add in cash shop models or any new potential payment model that will start giving them free money (free money in the sense you are giving something virtual for something physical).  It's a cash making cow, a money machine and, in most cases, the current P2P models are excessive as seen in the first link (albeit i'd admit looking at just one company is a little folly, but this isn't an in depth analysis).

Here's a nice video regarding MMOs in general.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvK8fua6O64

 

There's a nice little talk of payment model reasonings by Wildstar's Gaffney (I think it's towards the beginning).

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ct9Ogn7AazM

 

This is why a new payment model is needed.  When thinking of the potential newblood we have, also how to draw them in with sweets and candy while also presenting it in a way they would accept or understand.

 

 

Though yes, that is a good detail to consider.  I actually touch on it very slightly with the info about A Realm Reborn and how they kind've need it, at least at the start (It's also hinted that this is one reason why only the whales in the industry go the MMO route as only they can afford the initial investment to make the cash machine).  While Yoshi-P was against F2P at first, he soon said that it was "interesting" and that he was "looking into it" for the future.  But that FFXIV as it was now is not compatible with that model.

 

I could imagine many console players on the PS4 picking it up if it was B2P or F2P as that would seem to target that audience a great deal, especially since both Sony and Microsoft are starting to target that now themselves.  They will be used to it on consoles eventually, just as they are now with B2P and microtransactions.

When faced with strife or discontent, the true nature of a man is brought forth. It is then when we see the character of the individual. It is then we are able to tell if he is mature enough to grin and bare it, or subject his fellow man to his complaints and woes.

  Robokapp

Elite Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4476

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

5/10/13 5:03:28 AM#83
Originally posted by Dogblaster
Originally posted by Yaevindusk
Originally posted by Dogblaster

your ideas makes me laught ... they are not bad but pls, if you dont like subscription, avoid p2p mmos.

I dont like many things but dont need to brag about them all the time. Its nothing personal against you but its already pretty lame seeing all these posts about subscriptions.

 

Not sure if this was really necessary.  This post was just expressing an idea, trying to move the payment model forward as opposed to what we've been stuck with for some time.

I'm not even sure what you were trying to say with the last bit, but ignoring facts as a whole is not the best way to avoid them.  New models are needed when thinking of the big picture as P2P is faltering and F2P has problems of its own.

If you want to read up on some of these problems, just read some of my previous posts on this thread.

For you and others they maybe are neded, but i am perfectly ok with current p2p model. 

Then why are you here ?

 

p.s. I'm fine with present P2P model as well. Hardly relevant to topic at hand. 

  Storm_Cloud

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/10/13
Posts: 291

5/10/13 5:06:45 AM#84
Originally posted by itgrowls

can see this going over well now

"in the middle of a raid. HEY what happened to bob?! Oh he'll be back in a minute he forgot to use his token before coming here. (bob clicks on token and tries to rejoin the raid but can't) BOB! NOOO!

Yeah this just wouldn't work.

And not all F2P games are equal or bad. The freemium ones are usually the only ones that are harmful to the pockets of man.

Also an easy fix.

1 hour prior to the 24hours is up you get a popup in game asking you if you want to use another token and extend for another 24h.

Another popup 30 mins prior. In case you dismissed or completely missed the first warning.

If you log into the game, and it's within the last hour of your token, you will be asked upon logging in.

  Malasorte

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/23/08
Posts: 46

5/10/13 5:07:09 AM#85
Originally posted by OG_Zorvan

Here's my idea.

You buy a 30 day sub.

You login.

You have 30 "tokens" on your login/character screen.

You click the tokens and one is used.

You now have 24 hours to play with that one token, logging in/out as many times as need throughout that 24 hours.

Can't play tomorrow? No prob, your remaining 29 days are waiting for whenever you want to use them.

At $15 per 30days of tokens, you are spending $.50 for each 24 hour block.

You get all the benefits of the subscription, without feeling you've "lost" your money by only playing a few hours a week.

actually it very easy to just make the sub time be consumed when u actually play the game, this make all your 30 days play days but then they would loose money cause ppl need to sleep, eat, drink, f and other stuff and that time goes down and after 30 days u need to pay again, so far i only saw one game that had sub to have this option a long time ago, unfortunately i forgot the name of the game.

so even your suggestion would make them loose money and i would suggest u dont get your hopes up thinking they would do that

  Panthien

Novice Member

Joined: 6/07/12
Posts: 566

5/10/13 5:07:57 AM#86
Originally posted by Yaevindusk
Originally posted by Panthien
Originally posted by Yaevindusk
Originally posted by Panthien
Originally posted by Yaevindusk

 

It depends on how that is marketed and how the system actually is.  I wouldn't pay $20 for 30 24 hour tokens myself simply because I'll likely be losing out on 22 hours since I only play a few hours a day (if that).  If that's the point, then I'd prefer the $15 a month (that I currently boycott simply because I've spent tens of thousands of dollars in monthly fees since 1997 on all kinds of games).  As a casual player myself, I'd end up paying for more as I'd activate it every day just for a couple of hours.  It wouldn't be reasonable and it would be torn a new one on reddit and other places, with people making videos against it as well.  Then we'd all be wary of new payment models and future products will suffer from it.  It's almost like that whole DRM / cash shop thing what with one bad system ruins the thoughts of such by the majority for the future.

If the game simply gave a month of free play (as it is now) and then 720 hours of game time (that only expired when you played) for $20-25 then I might consider it and option.  But anything the is perceived as an increase in price is something that will be met with resistance.  So it wouldn't be a good business move to try such unless they had an amazing marketing team that could walk on water and speak words of sweet nectar.

Going by a pay per hour system would be subjected to the same principle. IF a company would impliment a system like this, they will probebly offer both pay per hour and monthly subs, depending on your hours played, pay per hour can be cheaper or more expensive, effectively giving benifid in these systems for both company and customer.

So for arguement sake, if you play upto 350 hours a month, the pay per hour system would be cheaper if you play beyone that its cheaper to go by monthly fee.

Here is what I edited in a little while ago in my last post:

Also there is the point in that, why should we expect to pay more for games when there are so many choices out there?

 

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/21960-a-misconception-on-the-misconception-of-mmo-costs/

The whole issue that I think you're trying to point out is that MMOs are an expensive endeavor, and that investors want something that rips people off.  That only the big whales will be able to enter this market, and why would they if they couldn't blatantly take our money?  But that's starting to become archaic; the community is starting to wise up, and soon they will need to be on the defensive as to how they make their earning and to appease the great MMO community beast that is rising up.

 

 

The prospects and reasons why this is happening need to be appeased.  Simply creating a new coat of paint for something will not solve the issues we're having.  People will still have access to other games, and new games will still be released with better and cheaper systems.  In the interest of perserving a monthly fee of any sort, one needs to look beyond the cash symbols in their eyes and look to the consumer.  The customer is always right, and those who only invest in this business with intent to rip of customers will soon need to get out if they don't understand how payment models are evolving.  

 

When you take a look at the future of this genre, and the future of gaming in general you need to consider many things.  One thing that we write off is the console fanbase.  Consoles for a MMO?  Haha!  That's not going to happen, right?  Except that it might.  The MMO has reached it's peak how it is now and with computer based players.  It needs new blood, and where better to get it from than the systems that  are starting to focus on social structures and internet connectivity.  In recent new we hear that the new generation games will have "free to play games" ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EiXnqOUPEw ).  This should be alarming and an eye opener as to what implications this could have for all genres (especially since we'll have so much more online games, and with technology the line between MMO and Online game will be blurred as having 200+ people in one area may become the norm at one point).  

 

Add to that the fact that the PS4 has been confirmed to have these social aspects, internet games, having technology available whereby you could jump in and actually play the game for your friend (etc), we have a potentially powerful system and a host of new potential players.  What are these players used to?  Well, microtransactions (cash shops) and games that are Buy to Play.  Most are skeptical of MMOs simply because you have to rent the game you play.  I go into depth with this in my blog:  http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/Yaevindusk/032013/24782_A-brief-analysis-of-MMOs-and-contextual-payment-plans-Why-World-of-Warcraft-may-want-The-Elders-Scrolls-to-go-P2P-update-2

 

We already see this happening with Defiance and Final Fantasy XIV A Realm Reborn (a game that was remade and definitely needs to remake the cash with a subscription), and these are with ancient hardware and have nothing like the (very computer based) specs of the new generation of consoles.  We also had those rumors that the Xbox 720 will have always online requirements (which again are rumors, but one of their employees didn't see why that was a bad thing).

 

As a whole they could continue to try and rip people off or they can adapt to the situations at hand and take full well advantage of the future as it comes.  Technology is evolving, bandwidth costs are minimal and a new age is upon us.

 

A minor detail here, Bioshock infinate for instance is estimated to have 4.6milion units sold by the end of the year. A mmo feels lucky to reach 2 million copies, most dont even get past 1 million..

Setting production cost (for arguement sake with advertisement etc etc) 100,000,000usd, they need to sell 2,000,000 units to break even (asuming game sells for 50usd)

Seeing how few mmo's actually getting past 1million units sold, they dont even get half their investment back. Granted the production cost of an mmo vary, Rift for instance was estimated to have costed 50 million and sold ~1 million units. So they broke even. Without a penny to spare, so the sub's really turned into their only actual reward for their risk and investment.

So no, I really dont agree with the pure rip-off statement, even though they actually make a profit!

 

 

 

Though that's just to remake the costs involved.  You also have to add in cash shop models or any new potential payment model that will start giving them free money (free money in the sense you are giving something virtual for something physical).  It's a cash making cow, a money machine and, in most cases, the current P2P models are excessive as seen in the first link (albeit i'd admit looking at just one company is a little folly, but this isn't an in depth analysis).

Here's a nice video regarding MMOs in general.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvK8fua6O64

 

There's a nice little talk of payment model reasonings by Wildstar's Gaffney (I think it's towards the beginning).

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ct9Ogn7AazM

 

This is why a new payment model is needed.  When thinking of the potential newblood we have, also how to draw them in with sweets and candy while also presenting it in a way they would accept or understand.

 

 

Though yes, that is a good detail to consider.  I actually touch on it very slightly with the info about A Realm Reborn and how they kind've need it, at least at the start.  While Yoshi-P was against F2P at first, he soon said that it was "interesting" and that he was "looking into it" for the future.  But that FFXIV as it was now is not compatible with that model.

Like I said before I think having a pay-per-whatevertimeframe option is a good idea, but there has to be a benifid in it for both.

I would oppose this payment option if it came without a monthly option knowing the average player will end up paying more then what we pay now.

But you are right 12usd may be more reasonable then 15usd per month ( not the best time of day to do the math for a better extiment but Im sure you can understand this)  , but they still take a huge risk, even with a monthly sub it still takes quite some time before they actually make a profit.

F2P games take a bigger risk but often their innitial costs are significant lower and they use various of forms of.. encouragement to get their investment back.. with some major interest.

  Robokapp

Elite Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4476

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

5/10/13 5:09:08 AM#87
Originally posted by Storm_Cloud
Originally posted by itgrowls

can see this going over well now

"in the middle of a raid. HEY what happened to bob?! Oh he'll be back in a minute he forgot to use his token before coming here. (bob clicks on token and tries to rejoin the raid but can't) BOB! NOOO!

 

by "bob" you mean XBoBdaBoSSy0l0sWagX right ?

  Vesavius

Old School

Joined: 3/08/04
Posts: 7119

Players come for the game, but they stay for the people- Most Devs have forgotten this.

5/10/13 5:09:41 AM#88
Originally posted by itgrowls

can see this going over well now

"in the middle of a raid. HEY what happened to bob?! Oh he'll be back in a minute he forgot to use his token before coming here. (bob clicks on token and tries to rejoin the raid but can't) BOB! NOOO!

Yeah this just wouldn't work.

 

A warning comes up on your screen telling you that you are nearing the end of your current session and 'click here' to use another token, allowing you continue uninterrupted play from within the game.

Next?

 

  Panthien

Novice Member

Joined: 6/07/12
Posts: 566

5/10/13 5:12:30 AM#89
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by Dogblaster
Originally posted by Yaevindusk
Originally posted by Dogblaster

your ideas makes me laught ... they are not bad but pls, if you dont like subscription, avoid p2p mmos.

I dont like many things but dont need to brag about them all the time. Its nothing personal against you but its already pretty lame seeing all these posts about subscriptions.

 

Not sure if this was really necessary.  This post was just expressing an idea, trying to move the payment model forward as opposed to what we've been stuck with for some time.

I'm not even sure what you were trying to say with the last bit, but ignoring facts as a whole is not the best way to avoid them.  New models are needed when thinking of the big picture as P2P is faltering and F2P has problems of its own.

If you want to read up on some of these problems, just read some of my previous posts on this thread.

For you and others they maybe are neded, but i am perfectly ok with current p2p model. 

Then why are you here ?

 

p.s. I'm fine with present P2P model as well. Hardly relevant to topic at hand. 

I dont have a problem with any payment model atm.

Heck look at starbucks, 6usd for a cup of coffee that costs 11cents + 2 cents for the cut and 0.01cent sirup+milk. And we still line up for it. (most locations have to sell 200cups a day for ~1.20usd to stay viable btw)

  Fusion

Old School

Joined: 5/21/03
Posts: 1316

5/10/13 5:14:39 AM#90

Life is comprised of monthly subs, why should MMORPG's be any different?!

I don't get this waa waa-generation, always crying about subs and crap.

No i don't like the idea! You pay monthlies for TV, satellite, Internet, mobile-internet, car insurances, etc etc and you don't necessarily use all of those daily/hourly, should those be cut into pieces and tokens for the convenience of people who "don't want to pay monthly" ?

No. Move on with your lives, if you can not / don't want to pay a monthly, it's obviously the wrong thing for you.

Currently playing: ESO

Waiting for: Class4.

Dead and Buried: NWO, GW2, SWTOR, Darkfall, AO, AC2, Vanguard, CoH/V, EnB, EVE, Neocron, FE, EQ, EQ2, DAoC, FFXI, FFXIV, SWG, WoW, and billions of eastern junks!

  Yaevindusk

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/05/10
Posts: 1129

Logic, reason and fact do not supersede human nature. Ignorance reigns without justice.

5/10/13 5:19:12 AM#91
Originally posted by Panthien
Originally posted by Yaevindusk

 

 

Though that's just to remake the costs involved.  You also have to add in cash shop models or any new potential payment model that will start giving them free money (free money in the sense you are giving something virtual for something physical).  It's a cash making cow, a money machine and, in most cases, the current P2P models are excessive as seen in the first link (albeit i'd admit looking at just one company is a little folly, but this isn't an in depth analysis).

Here's a nice video regarding MMOs in general.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvK8fua6O64

 

There's a nice little talk of payment model reasonings by Wildstar's Gaffney (I think it's towards the beginning).

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ct9Ogn7AazM

 

This is why a new payment model is needed.  When thinking of the potential newblood we have, also how to draw them in with sweets and candy while also presenting it in a way they would accept or understand.

 

 

Though yes, that is a good detail to consider.  I actually touch on it very slightly with the info about A Realm Reborn and how they kind've need it, at least at the start.  While Yoshi-P was against F2P at first, he soon said that it was "interesting" and that he was "looking into it" for the future.  But that FFXIV as it was now is not compatible with that model.

Like I said before I think having a pay-per-whatevertimeframe option is a good idea, but there has to be a benifid in it for both.

I would oppose this payment option if it came without a monthly option knowing the average player will end up paying more then what we pay now.

But you are right 12usd may be more reasonable then 15usd per month ( not the best time of day to do the math for a better extiment but Im sure you can understand this)  , but they still take a huge risk, even with a monthly sub it still takes quite some time before they actually make a profit.

F2P games take a bigger risk but often their innitial costs are significant lower and they use various of forms of.. encouragement to get their investment back.. with some major interest.

 

Well, this harkens back to the whole "you can't paint over a bad system" as well.  Though yes, I think we're on the same mindset when it comes to this.  Also, you're correct that in business you have to consider that they want something that is good for them.  But what's good for them is not completely falling out and instead picking up potentially millions of new players from different sources.  Having "fans" and "good will" can be more profitable than just trying to get something out of a good deal that you market.  Granted, in the real world investors think of the bottom line.  But there is more to the bottom line than just as much money you can make now, but how much you can make as a whole.

I doubt we'll get out of the whole "greed" of both sides.  But if something could be made that was fair for both, or even appeases the masses in the hopes that such a thing will pay of in the end, then the genre just may survive the coming obstacles and P2P may survive the next generation.

 

I've advocated the whole choice thing for a while.  Having three different servers, one with F2P and the cash shops we're used to, one B2P with aesthetic cash shops, and one with P2P who don't want any cash shops and for those who think more money = more maturity.

There would be the problem of friends being divided that could be rectified by allowing a higher tier to "guest" on a lower tier (also accepting whatever is there) to play with their friends.  Then some may say that players will always gravitate to the cheapest plan.  Though that's how F2P is now anyway, and it's massively profitable.  Also, that would be forgetting that there are reasons people have for enjoying the B2P or P2P that are their own.  They will pick what they want in that case.  But you also won't lose access to your character or your game if you suddenly want to downgrade your P2P to B2P servers. You don't lose access to the game you play.  There would have to be something in place where it would be a copy of your P2P character that goes B2P and you can't bring it back to P2P for obvious reasons.  But you still have access to it, and if you want you could activate your P2P copy and play where you left off, without the potential cash shop aesthetics from B2P.

 

It would definitely need work, but it takes advantage of all three plans, and you really don't need more servers than usual as you could just split the ones you planned on having.

When faced with strife or discontent, the true nature of a man is brought forth. It is then when we see the character of the individual. It is then we are able to tell if he is mature enough to grin and bare it, or subject his fellow man to his complaints and woes.

  Yaevindusk

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/05/10
Posts: 1129

Logic, reason and fact do not supersede human nature. Ignorance reigns without justice.

5/10/13 5:23:30 AM#92
Originally posted by Fusion

Life is comprised of monthly subs, why should MMORPG's be any different?!

I don't get this waa waa-generation, always crying about subs and crap.

No i don't like the idea! You pay monthlies for TV, satellite, Internet, mobile-internet, car insurances, etc etc and you don't necessarily use all of those daily/hourly, should those be cut into pieces and tokens for the convenience of people who "don't want to pay monthly" ?

No. Move on with your lives, if you can not / don't want to pay a monthly, it's obviously the wrong thing for you.

 

This is exactly the type of thought that puts us in the situations we are in.  You have to think of the future, adapt and profit from such.  These aren't just discussions of prices, but the salvation of an industry that may tank in the next generation as the line is blurred between MMO and just plain Online Game.

We are already seeing MMOs that are single player based.  How will it be any different from console machines that are capable to have superior social connectivity (unless we have the technology present to jump into another's game and take control of all of their characters if they let us that isn't tied to a game mechanic?), equal internet prowess and the ability to have hundreds of people in one area as the norm?  We need to evolve the industry and payment models to facilitate the "newblood" as we've pretty much reached the peak of how many computer users are MMO players.  To do that we need to find something that would entice said new blood, who are used to B2P games with online capabilities and microtransactions.

It was also recently announced that Sony and Microsoft will likely fully support F2P games.  This should be alarming to anyone who is in love with this genre and want to see quality games.

When faced with strife or discontent, the true nature of a man is brought forth. It is then when we see the character of the individual. It is then we are able to tell if he is mature enough to grin and bare it, or subject his fellow man to his complaints and woes.

  emperorwings

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/25/06
Posts: 1307

5/10/13 5:25:48 AM#93
Sounds like a good idea if they weren't tradeable

This isn't a signature, you just think it is.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

5/10/13 5:33:08 AM#94
Actually if I want to watch a movie on my tv I pay like £3 to watch it. Not all tv is on a monthly contract.

Likewise my water, electric etc.. is metered I don't pay a flat rare each month, I psu for what I use.

Another bonus with this systems occurs.
with current monthly sub model, you have this minority who burn through a game then demand more content. These guys are getting more game for their money AND setting the games agenda ahead of the casual majority that are actually paying more - as they take more time to level. It's mmo communism people with Jobs are subsidizing those who sit at home all day.

At least with this proposed system, the content locusts pay more before they get to while about "no endgame"

It's fairer
It's the market in action. Those that play more pay more.
  Panthien

Novice Member

Joined: 6/07/12
Posts: 566

5/10/13 5:33:39 AM#95
Originally posted by Yaevindusk
Originally posted by Fusion

Life is comprised of monthly subs, why should MMORPG's be any different?!

I don't get this waa waa-generation, always crying about subs and crap.

No i don't like the idea! You pay monthlies for TV, satellite, Internet, mobile-internet, car insurances, etc etc and you don't necessarily use all of those daily/hourly, should those be cut into pieces and tokens for the convenience of people who "don't want to pay monthly" ?

No. Move on with your lives, if you can not / don't want to pay a monthly, it's obviously the wrong thing for you.

 

This is exactly the type of thought that puts us in the situations we are in.  You have to think of the future, adapt and profit from such.  These aren't just discussions of prices, but the salvation of an industry that may tank in the next generation as the line is blurred between MMO and just plain Online Game.

We are already seeing MMOs that are single player based.  How will it be any different from console machines that are capable to have superior social connectivity (unless we have the technology present to jump into another's game and take control of all of their characters if they let us that isn't tied to a game mechanic?), equal internet prowess and the ability to have hundreds of people in one area as the norm?  We need to evolve the industry and payment models to facilitate the "newblood" as we've pretty much reached the peak of how many computer users are MMO players.  To do that we need to find something that would entice said new blood, who are used to B2P games with online capabilities and microtransactions.

It was also recently announced that Sony and Microsoft will likely fully support F2P games.  This should be alarming to anyone who is in love with this genre and want to see quality games.

Well said. For this very same reason I truely wish every mmo that is being released to be successfull.

Even though some are downright bad and probebly deserve to tank.. its not good for the genre as a whole.

  Fusion

Old School

Joined: 5/21/03
Posts: 1316

5/10/13 5:34:58 AM#96
Originally posted by Yaevindusk
Originally posted by Fusion

Life is comprised of monthly subs, why should MMORPG's be any different?!

I don't get this waa waa-generation, always crying about subs and crap.

No i don't like the idea! You pay monthlies for TV, satellite, Internet, mobile-internet, car insurances, etc etc and you don't necessarily use all of those daily/hourly, should those be cut into pieces and tokens for the convenience of people who "don't want to pay monthly" ?

No. Move on with your lives, if you can not / don't want to pay a monthly, it's obviously the wrong thing for you.

 

This is exactly the type of thought that puts us in the situations we are in.  You have to think of the future, adapt and profit from such.  These aren't just discussions of prices, but the salvation of an industry that may tank in the next generation as the line is blurred between MMO and just plain Online Game.

We are already seeing MMOs that are single player based.  How will it be any different from console machines that are capable to have superior social connectivity (unless we have the technology present to jump into another's game and take control of all of their characters if they let us that isn't tied to a game mechanic?), equal internet prowess and the ability to have hundreds of people in one area as the norm?  We need to evolve the industry and payment models to facilitate the "newblood" as we've pretty much reached the peak of how many computer users are MMO players.  To do that we need to find something that would entice said new blood, who are used to B2P games with online capabilities and microtransactions.

It was also recently announced that Sony and Microsoft will likely fully support F2P games.  This should be alarming to anyone who is in love with this genre and want to see quality games.

 

The companies just have to get it into their heads that they cannot please everyone, sometimes even not the majority. The genre should go back to it's "roots" and stick to it ('forced' grouping/socializing etc, examples EQ1 back in the late 90's early 2000's, AC, UO, AO, even FFXI). That may not be the most lucrative direction, but atleast it'd be the steadiest one as can be said from the afore mentioned games, they did good back then.

Gamers that the games didn't appeal back then BECAUSE of a monthly sub and whatnot, didn't play, so they didn't whine (there was ALOT less whine around back then), now they've stormed the genre and are dragging it down bit by bit.

Real fans and "old-timers" of the MMO-genre is where the steady income was and still is, not the "i want it now, not tomorrow" & "i'm entitled to this and that" generation of gamers we've seen influxing the genre since "a game i don't want to mention", in my book the "hit-n-runners" who can't stay in an MMO for more than a month at a time.

F2P alltogether has been alarming since it first started trending in the west and has been growing ever more alarming.. I do fear for 'my genre' and i hope all ends well.

 

ps. i don't see 'blurry lines' between MMO(RPG)s and 'Online-games'/Multiplayer games. The first one hosts a 24/7 365 persistant WORLD(s) and the latter hosts multiplayer 'arenas' on smaller server where up-to, but not limited to 100 players can play simultaneously, rinse and repeat, there is no persistance. And even the NON-MMO server for Multiplayer/online games are paid by someone/some means, wether it's advertising, cash shops (BF3 etc.), DLC's like map packs, armor/weapon skins etc., clans themselves OR players having their own server at home. Someone, somewhere is still paying for that service.

Currently playing: ESO

Waiting for: Class4.

Dead and Buried: NWO, GW2, SWTOR, Darkfall, AO, AC2, Vanguard, CoH/V, EnB, EVE, Neocron, FE, EQ, EQ2, DAoC, FFXI, FFXIV, SWG, WoW, and billions of eastern junks!

  Dogblaster

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 505

5/10/13 5:40:25 AM#97
Originally posted by Fusion

Life is comprised of monthly subs, why should MMORPG's be any different?!

I don't get this waa waa-generation, always crying about subs and crap.

No i don't like the idea! You pay monthlies for TV, satellite, Internet, mobile-internet, car insurances, etc etc and you don't necessarily use all of those daily/hourly, should those be cut into pieces and tokens for the convenience of people who "don't want to pay monthly" ?

No. Move on with your lives, if you can not / don't want to pay a monthly, it's obviously the wrong thing for you.

+1

they just dont get it :) i bet they cry at their ISPs how they werent able to use internet for week so they want refund or new payment model xD  if you all want subs based on playtime, hope they give you that.. but like 5 bucks per 24 hours. You know .. they have to make money... but one day you might understand that when you run your own business...

  Yaevindusk

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/05/10
Posts: 1129

Logic, reason and fact do not supersede human nature. Ignorance reigns without justice.

5/10/13 5:46:51 AM#98
Originally posted by Fusion
Originally posted by Yaevindusk
Originally posted by Fusion

Life is comprised of monthly subs, why should MMORPG's be any different?!

I don't get this waa waa-generation, always crying about subs and crap.

No i don't like the idea! You pay monthlies for TV, satellite, Internet, mobile-internet, car insurances, etc etc and you don't necessarily use all of those daily/hourly, should those be cut into pieces and tokens for the convenience of people who "don't want to pay monthly" ?

No. Move on with your lives, if you can not / don't want to pay a monthly, it's obviously the wrong thing for you.

 

This is exactly the type of thought that puts us in the situations we are in.  You have to think of the future, adapt and profit from such.  These aren't just discussions of prices, but the salvation of an industry that may tank in the next generation as the line is blurred between MMO and just plain Online Game.

We are already seeing MMOs that are single player based.  How will it be any different from console machines that are capable to have superior social connectivity (unless we have the technology present to jump into another's game and take control of all of their characters if they let us that isn't tied to a game mechanic?), equal internet prowess and the ability to have hundreds of people in one area as the norm?  We need to evolve the industry and payment models to facilitate the "newblood" as we've pretty much reached the peak of how many computer users are MMO players.  To do that we need to find something that would entice said new blood, who are used to B2P games with online capabilities and microtransactions.

It was also recently announced that Sony and Microsoft will likely fully support F2P games.  This should be alarming to anyone who is in love with this genre and want to see quality games.

 

The companies just have to get it into their heads that they cannot please everyone, sometimes even not the majority. The genre should go back to it's "roots" and stick to it ('forced' grouping/socializing etc, examples EQ1 back in the late 90's early 2000's, AC, UO, AO, even FFXI). That may not be the most lucrative direction, but atleast it'd be the steadiest one as can be said from the afore mentioned games, they did good back then.

Gamers that the games didn't appeal back then BECAUSE of a monthly sub and whatnot, didn't play, so they didn't whine (there was ALOT less whine around back then), now they've stormed the genre and are dragging it down bit by bit.

Real fans and "old-timers" of the MMO-genre is where the steady income was and still is, not the "i want it now, not tomorrow" & "i'm entitled to this and that" generation of gamers we've seen influxing the genre since "a game i don't want to mention", in my book the "hit-n-runners" who can't stay in an MMO for more than a month at a time.

F2P alltogether has been alarming since it first started trending in the west and has been growing ever more alarming.. I do fear for 'my genre' and i hope all ends well.

 

I would personally love for it to go back to it's roots.  Maybe even see a game similar to Ultima Online.  Try to distinguish itself from whatever will be released in the future by going back to how games were.  It is indeed a way to seperate itself from the single player online game's we'll be seeing (or are seeing right now, which call themselves MMOs).  But also trying to present it in a way that entices new players would be a good step in the right direct as well.  As such, a new payment model would go along with with that as well as a great marketing campaign by the fans of the genre and perhaps even the industry itself.  

What we're look at now (in some cases) is an industry that tries to minimizes costs while maximize profits.  While that's just good business, we also have to look at what the competition is doing.  Other games that aren't of this genre are starting to show potential of surpassing what makes an MMO an MMO.  All of these cutting corners is starting to blurr that line already. Add to that we are seeing more and more single player MMOs and the problem is evident.  Soon we will be competing with average online games without he MMO tag; ones that are fully capable of having hundreds of players in a single area and which have goals for all these people to complete.  An emphasis on multiplayer for online play, and single player for offline play.  No single player for online play.

Hopefully we find that niche that we need for these coming times.

When faced with strife or discontent, the true nature of a man is brought forth. It is then when we see the character of the individual. It is then we are able to tell if he is mature enough to grin and bare it, or subject his fellow man to his complaints and woes.

  Yaevindusk

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/05/10
Posts: 1129

Logic, reason and fact do not supersede human nature. Ignorance reigns without justice.

5/10/13 5:54:21 AM#99
Originally posted by Dogblaster
Originally posted by Fusion

Life is comprised of monthly subs, why should MMORPG's be any different?!

I don't get this waa waa-generation, always crying about subs and crap.

No i don't like the idea! You pay monthlies for TV, satellite, Internet, mobile-internet, car insurances, etc etc and you don't necessarily use all of those daily/hourly, should those be cut into pieces and tokens for the convenience of people who "don't want to pay monthly" ?

No. Move on with your lives, if you can not / don't want to pay a monthly, it's obviously the wrong thing for you.

+1

they just dont get it :) i bet they cry at their ISPs how they werent able to use internet for week so they want refund or new payment model xD  if you all want subs based on playtime, hope they give you that.. but like 5 bucks per 24 hours. You know .. they have to make money... but one day you might understand that when you run your own business...

 

Since this is your third post of the same kind...

You want to assert yourself and make fun of people who don't like the premium monthly fee model.  Okay, I get it.  People have their reasons for liking something, and disliking something.  But that's not really the point of this thread.  The OP didn't complain about it, and it in itself has evolved into a discussion to save the payment model structures and the MMO and not "whine" about it (or whine about the whining, as it were).

 

Please bring something to the discussion and not just say "they just don't get it" while quoting another as your retort to whomever you are speaking to (or to the people "who don't get it").

 

You would see there is a great discussion here of people aren't attacking the P2P model, but rather trying to save it and the MMO genre from falling out when new hardware and new types of games are released.  Please read my 10-15+ posts here to get the proper context of the discussion.

 

Nearly all of them have been with the intent to make developers more money and improve the genre as a whole.

 

:)

 

P.S.  Doing research for this kind of stuff is my job, so I personally very much "get it" (for as much as there is to be got by one person) when it comes to the business model and how people need to make money.

 

You can go to http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/383779/page/3  Post #25 to see my stance on getting the developers their due money.  The post itself was like 10 pages long in word, but I edited a bit before posting.

 

Lastly, if that comment wasn't targeted to those of us having this discussion then I apologize for sounding a little antsy.  Though in the context of these posts, I really don't think such things help said discussion.

 

To quote Robokapp, who responded to you earlier:

"p.s. I'm fine with present P2P model as well. Hardly relevant to topic at hand."

When faced with strife or discontent, the true nature of a man is brought forth. It is then when we see the character of the individual. It is then we are able to tell if he is mature enough to grin and bare it, or subject his fellow man to his complaints and woes.

  laokoko

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/14/09
Posts: 1874

5/10/13 6:22:55 AM#100

That is exactly how the asian market pays right?  They pay by the minute/hour.

The thing is you need to convince game studio to adapt this model.  Which many of them probably would be reluctant to use this model.  Since they probably make less money.

 

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