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General Discussion Forum » The Pub at MMORPG.COM » Should MMOs let you have the ability to solo raids?

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123 posts found
  User Deleted
5/13/13 9:46:17 AM#101
Originally posted by aslan132

EverQuest 2 solved this problem already. Whenever they release a new zone, they include a solo version, heroic and a raid version. All of the loot is geared towards the type of play (more people, better loot), but the story is the same for everyone. 

 

Whether you want to experience it alone, in a small group, or in a large group, you have the choice. The story stays the same, but the bosses and mechanics are so much different. They started this a couple expansions ago (right around the Free2Play conversion i think). They even explained that the reason was so that everyone could experience the same story all the way through. It used to be like WoW, where only raiders saw the end of an expansions story, but since raiders are such a tiny part of the playerbase, it didnt seem fair that only they got to see how the story ended. 

 

Im sure WoW will end up copying this soon. They usually dont take too long to copy features from other MMOs. 

But aren't we missing the point here?  You like chess.  So you decide to play WoW and want it to play like chess?  MMOs are multiplayer social games, not single player games online.  The problem here is that instead of telling players, this isn't chess, they're trying to turn it into chess.  It's why MMOs are floundering so much... they are having an identity crisis.

You like doing stuff all by yourself... only have a little free time?  Choose a game more akin to what you are looking for.  Cry out for more games like that... stop trying to turn other games into something they are not... in the end you don't get the best of both worlds... you a get a cheap knock off of both.

  rojoArcueid

Elite Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 5693

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

5/13/13 9:56:13 AM#102

dictionary meaning of the word Raid = surprise attack by troops or a small group.

Solo raid is not a raid. IMO group content should not be able to be done alone. Its group content. Devs need to Develop solo content for soloers and group content for groups. But in mmorpgs focus on group. Single player games focus on solo play. Let mmos focus on multiplayer with some solo stuff. Thats it.

Do not make group content soloable because it affects grouping and kill the purpose of it all together.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20129

5/13/13 10:30:41 AM#103
Originally posted by Scot
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Scot
Yes, and while they are at it they should remove all those other troublesome players and let me get back to playing my solo RPG. The OP needs a new server where he can play on his own, then maybe he will be happy. :)

Yeah. Great idea. A game with both a SP and a MP mode provides choice, and more ways to enjoy.

In fact, i play STO like a SP game and i have great fun.

 

TSO - Tiny Soloplayer Online. I hope you do enjoy it, but that's what it is.

 

I do enjoy playing STO solo. Otherwise, why would i do it?

 

  Scot

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5280

5/14/13 4:48:29 AM#104
Originally posted by TalulaRose

Look under RPG on Steam, there are a ton of them out there. Why solo players have such a craving for an audience boggles my mind. If you want a following get a twitch account and broadcast while you play. 

It was the gaming companies who reached out to them, with solo play becoming the primary design principle MMOs are built on. Most players who prefer solo rpgs will only stay until they have reached end level, which is one of the reasons MMO populations nose dive after a couple of months.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20129

5/14/13 12:34:54 PM#105
Originally posted by Scot
Originally posted by TalulaRose

Look under RPG on Steam, there are a ton of them out there. Why solo players have such a craving for an audience boggles my mind. If you want a following get a twitch account and broadcast while you play. 

It was the gaming companies who reached out to them, with solo play becoming the primary design principle MMOs are built on. Most players who prefer solo rpgs will only stay until they have reached end level, which is one of the reasons MMO populations nose dive after a couple of months.

Didn't TOR pop just increases by 1.7M after going F2P? Nose-dive .. may be for p2p games, certainly not f2P ones.

 

  Scot

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5280

5/15/13 3:47:14 AM#106
Population does not equal increased revenue. The distinction you continually make between F2P and Sub is breaking down anyway.
  GroovyFlower

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/12/11
Posts: 1252

Skyrim

5/15/13 4:06:59 AM#107
Originally posted by TheScavenger

I'll talk about WoW for this, since its the longest played MMO I've been a part of and only one I had actual fun with at end game.

 

In WoW, only two classes can solo raid (or did when I played, that being, Death Knights and Paladins)...these two were (when i played) regarded as the best. However, they can only solo old raids that don't matter anymore. It is a fun challenge, but not much else.

 

But when WOTLK came out...I couldn't experience the Lich King for myself. Which was really disappointing after playing the Warcraft 3 and expansion. I had to go on Youtube and watch videos of it, which isn't nearly the same.

 

Why not let one do raids, but get much weaker items than one who would do the same raid in a group? This way, everyone can enjoy the content and not just the very small population that raided in WoW. This would add lots of content in the game for a much larger group of people. This would be true for any MMO that has raiding. The raiders still get their uber items and achievements, soloers get suitable items, but more importantly, get to actually see the story AND the content.

 

Then everyone wins and experiences the whole game.

Yeh lets solo massive multiplayer online game bosses lol

  Mothanos

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/20/10
Posts: 1861

5/15/13 4:14:06 AM#108

Hmmm if the contend is older then yes...
If its a dungeon i always was a guy who tried it out to see how far i could come.
Dungeons should be skill based if you ask me.

It would be silly as in an mmo YOU are the hero...if you cannot defeat irrelevent contend nice hero you are :)

I loved it in WoW to visit old contend and try to solo and duo the old raids.

  someforumguy

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/25/07
Posts: 3504

5/15/13 4:23:55 AM#109
I find it funny how those words like 'raiding' evolve over time. When I saw the topic I was imagining a one person tribe raiding a village :)
  Adamantine

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/07/08
Posts: 3345

War is not the ultima ratio, but the ultima irratio - Willy Brandt

5/15/13 5:20:33 AM#110
Originally posted by ArChWind
Originally posted by Adamantine

Um ... no ?

Unless you manage to design a system thats so tough to master that true masters may even solo certain raidbosses, while the average player still struggles to kill the same opponents with a regular raid.

That would be a cool game. It would probably be worthwhile to play your class for years, just in order to get better and better at it. But I doubt anyone will ever come up with any such a system.

Certainly not WoW. I heard that in WoW its fashion that green drops from mobs replace the raid gear from previous versions. Talk about a truely awful design. So yeah, WoW obviously is extremely gear heavy and skill can thus no longer matter much in that game.

I can see people soloing raid bosses that are much below their level, though.

Like I said above, Vindictus.

 

It is easier to solo a 24 man boss because you have complete control over them.

 

Once you learn the boss pattern you know exactly what buttons to push at the right time. It takes a lot of practice because you die a LOT in the beginning and the instance resets or you spend real money getting rezed  but the end product is mastery of your class.

 

Thats not what I had in mind.

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20129

5/15/13 10:42:06 AM#111
Originally posted by Scot
Population does not equal increased revenue. The distinction you continually make between F2P and Sub is breaking down anyway.

well you said "which is one of the reasons MMO populations nose dive after a couple of months." .. you clearly is not talking about revenue.

Are you changing your tune now?

You probably also know that p2p-only games are losing share in revenue to games with F2P options. Don't you?

  Scot

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5280

5/16/13 4:09:54 AM#112

If you can show how those studies defined P2P and F2P I might agree with you. But MMO's have moved their goal posts when it comes to what is F2P and what is P2P. Without knowing how they counted a MMO as one type of revenue model or another the study tells us nothing.

Two years ago it would have, now you really need to know what do they mean by P2P? Are they including GW2 as P2P because it is B2P? Or are they saying GW2 is F2P because you don't have to pay after you bought the box? It is these sort of questions that render such statements about revenue generated by the financial models quite meaningless.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20129

5/16/13 9:32:40 AM#113
Originally posted by Scot

If you can show how those studies defined P2P and F2P I might agree with you. But MMO's have moved their goal posts when it comes to what is F2P and what is P2P. Without knowing how they counted a MMO as one type of revenue model or another the study tells us nothing.

Two years ago it would have, now you really need to know what do they mean by P2P? Are they including GW2 as P2P because it is B2P? Or are they saying GW2 is F2P because you don't have to pay after you bought the box? It is these sort of questions that render such statements about revenue generated by the financial models quite meaningless.

You are trying to confuse the subject because you have no ground to stand on.

It is very clear. P2P-only games are losing revenue share and players. Are you disputing this?

Games with F2P options are gaining ground. Are you disputing this?

And any game with a F2P option, i can play (at least part) for free. Are you disputing this?

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3876

5/16/13 9:49:17 AM#114
Originally posted by someforumguy
I find it funny how those words like 'raiding' evolve over time. When I saw the topic I was imagining a one person tribe raiding a village :)

Nah, it still means the same thing... raiding the fridge usually works best solo.

  Scot

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5280

5/17/13 3:12:07 AM#115
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Scot

If you can show how those studies defined P2P and F2P I might agree with you. But MMO's have moved their goal posts when it comes to what is F2P and what is P2P. Without knowing how they counted a MMO as one type of revenue model or another the study tells us nothing.

Two years ago it would have, now you really need to know what do they mean by P2P? Are they including GW2 as P2P because it is B2P? Or are they saying GW2 is F2P because you don't have to pay after you bought the box? It is these sort of questions that render such statements about revenue generated by the financial models quite meaningless.

You are trying to confuse the subject because you have no ground to stand on.

It is very clear. P2P-only games are losing revenue share and players. Are you disputing this?

Games with F2P options are gaining ground. Are you disputing this?

And any game with a F2P option, i can play (at least part) for free. Are you disputing this?

You were the one who posted that study, all it showed was that there was a larger F2P logging in population than P2P. If you cannot see that the nature of hybrid revenue models now means it is very hard to be sure what is going on I am not sure you ever will.

“It is very clear. P2P-only games are losing revenue share and players. Are you disputing this?” – Yes, because it is unclear what sort of games are being put in which dataset.

“Games with F2P options are gaining ground. Are you disputing this?” – I agree, and the subscription option is gaining ground in F2P as well. In fact I would go further, it is becoming the norm to be hybrid, the two old models are on their way out.

“And any game with a F2P option, i can play (at least part) for free. Are you disputing this?” – No, but as you note it is restricted play. As I mentioned elsewhere the Free part of F2P is doing quite well currently, they are competing against each other to be the most free. But the hybrid model is one where the devil is in the detail, long term I think F2P players may get restrictions.

Already there is pricing confusion, and I think that extends to Free players as well. Do you know what you are missing out on in every F2P game you play? If you do well done. In this climate of players playing multiple MMO’s in the same year this is exacerbated. Each game has a new model to learn. If you think this does not affect you, do you not even check a MMO to see how “free” it is before you try it out? The pricing issue affects us all.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20129

5/17/13 12:25:21 PM#116
Originally posted by Scot
 

You were the one who posted that study, all it showed was that there was a larger F2P logging in population than P2P. If you cannot see that the nature of hybrid revenue models now means it is very hard to be sure what is going on I am not sure you ever will.

You clear miss this sentence:

"The good news is that in 2012, F2P MMOs made more than their P2P counterparts, capturing the majority of the MMO US market’s revenue."

 

  Scot

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5280

5/18/13 5:24:53 AM#117
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Scot
 

You were the one who posted that study, all it showed was that there was a larger F2P logging in population than P2P. If you cannot see that the nature of hybrid revenue models now means it is very hard to be sure what is going on I am not sure you ever will.

You clear miss this sentence:

"The good news is that in 2012, F2P MMOs made more than their P2P counterparts, capturing the majority of the MMO US market’s revenue."

 

And you seem to be doing very well at seeing anything but that. You still have no answer to how we can credit these studies without knowing on what basis they decide a MMO is P2P or F2P?

 

  Zipp_23

Novice Member

Joined: 5/14/12
Posts: 25

5/18/13 6:05:45 AM#118
Originally posted by DamonVile

All you have to do is look at solo friendly mmos to know why solo friendly raids are bad for any game. The multiplayer aspect of most games now days is little more than, if there's two of you in a group everything is so easy the game is boring.

Do that to a raid and you might as well just take the game off line and sell it as a single player game. There's so little left in these multiplayer games that are actually multiplayer and it looks like solo only players are even going after that. What's next solo pvp ?

The red part made my day :D

To the OP.... I dont understand why solo ppl even enter an MMO (mass multiplayer online) - just play a single player games. If the very end game raids are available as single player easier versions too It totally ruins the reward feeling you get after beating the hardest end game. Coz sometimes  you dont even get no item after beating the raid (e.g. limited drops and like 10ppl in group, so not everyone can get and item). So the only reward you get is actually the feeling "yeah, we finally did it. After all those unsuccessful attempts we master the encounter and got it done right" So you lean back and enjoy that moment.

And if every average Joe can do it on his own then the feeling is gone.

So should MMOs let you have the ability to solo raids - hell no.

IMO

  MyownGod

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/09/09
Posts: 212

5/18/13 6:20:51 AM#119

Honestly, I think you are trolling. 

You need to define "Raid" first before writing this down.

Raid - A rapid surprise attack on an enemy by troops, aircraft, or other armed forces in warfare.

A surprise attack by troops, which consist of more than one person.

 

If you are able to solo raid. it wouldn't be called "Raid" any more, unless somehow the game allows you to hire npcs to back you up, which im looking at Dndo, neverwinter and more, then again you cannot have more than 1 hireling.

 

In my opinion, if you wish to do everything solo, and you love video games. You should totally support single player games, rather than wasting your time trying to communicate with others in it. 

 

  Adalwulff

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/18/10
Posts: 1191

"I am not the light, or the darkness, but the twilight in between"

5/18/13 7:28:52 AM#120
Originally posted by TheScavenger

I'll talk about WoW for this, since its the longest played MMO I've been a part of and only one I had actual fun with at end game.

 

In WoW, only two classes can solo raid (or did when I played, that being, Death Knights and Paladins)...these two were (when i played) regarded as the best. However, they can only solo old raids that don't matter anymore. It is a fun challenge, but not much else.

 

But when WOTLK came out...I couldn't experience the Lich King for myself. Which was really disappointing after playing the Warcraft 3 and expansion. I had to go on Youtube and watch videos of it, which isn't nearly the same.

 

Why not let one do raids, but get much weaker items than one who would do the same raid in a group? This way, everyone can enjoy the content and not just the very small population that raided in WoW. This would add lots of content in the game for a much larger group of people. This would be true for any MMO that has raiding. The raiders still get their uber items and achievements, soloers get suitable items, but more importantly, get to actually see the story AND the content.

 

Then everyone wins and experiences the whole game.

 

Why stop there?

Why not solo everything?

Serioulsy, raids are not designed for it. Its like asking to sail a 50ft ship by yourself, not gunna happen.

Besides, there are multitude of single players games out there that would almost be the same experience.

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