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General Discussion Forum » The Pub at MMORPG.COM » "Free to play" really just means "we're not going to tell you how much we intend to make you pay or how you'll be crippled if you don't."

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342 posts found
  rygard49

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/22/11
Posts: 985

5/03/13 1:23:54 PM#261
Originally posted by udon

But that model doesn't promise that either anymore.  I'll give you a example.  A new expansion for MMOx is released and everyone who subs goes out and buys it (expansions costs money in most P2P games) than they go out and start to level only to find that there are not enough quests to get to the next max level without grinding unless you buy double XP potions in the cash shop.  In this case not only did being monthly sub not promise I wouldn't have to buy new content but it also didn't promise there would be enough of that content to level without using the cash shop.

P2P and B2P are myth's these days.  They no longer exist in thier pure form.  And while I might agree that a true 100% P2P game has some advantages over a F2P game I don't believe most sub based games with a cash shop do.  At the end of the day if you put that $15 a month into the cash shop in many of those games (Not all) you would end up at the same point.

You're using a pay to win cash shop in a pay to play game as an example. There aren't a whole lot of those, and they're all scams as well.

  neobahamut20

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 306

We can only show them the path, but they have to be the ones to take it.

5/03/13 1:28:20 PM#262

Free to play: The game is provided free of cost.

Free to play with cash shop: The game is provided free of cost but we put so many restrictions that you have to buy stuff to actually enjoy it.

 

The problem is not the term "Free to play", the problem is how much of a sucker you are.

Here are other examples:

Glue:

Marketter: This glue bonds everything together

Reality: This glue bonds everything together but the second you pull on it or lift it the bond breaks

 

Weight Loss:

Marketter: Lose 10 pounds in one week!

Reality: Suffer from dehydration, your body intakes less minerals and makes you sick.

 

Education:

Marketter: Get a great education to have a well-paying job.

Reality: Accumulate debt.

 

Babies:

Marketter (moms):  I hope your kid is a monster just like you were!

Reality: Take care of the child, have no problems!

Boycotting EA. Why? They suck, even moreso since 2008.

  rygard49

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/22/11
Posts: 985

5/03/13 1:32:33 PM#263
Originally posted by colddog04

With a F2P model, you also know exactly how much will be coming out of your wallet.

Okay.

I have 400 mystic points provided as seed currency. A common cash shop tactic.

I want to buy a potion for 550 mystic points.

The cash shop has mystic points on sale for $5 for 500, $10 for 1100, $20 for 2500, $50 for 7000, and $100 for 15000.

I spend $10 for a balance of 1500 mystic points, and am left with 950 after I buy the potion.

How much real world money did I spend on the potion?

 

Edit to clarify where the original 400 came from.

  BeansnBread

Elite Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 5416

5/03/13 1:35:53 PM#264
Originally posted by rygard49
Originally posted by colddog04

With a F2P model, you also know exactly how much will be coming out of your wallet.

Okay.

I have 400 mystic points.

I want to buy a potion for 550 mystic points.

The cash shop has mystic points on sale for $5 for 500, $10 for 1100, $20 for 2500, $50 for 7000, and $100 for 15000.

I spend $10 for a balance of 1500 mystic points, and am left with 950 after I buy the potion.

How much real world money did I spend on the potion?

How much money did you spend on the points? $10. That's how much money came out of your wallet that you will never get back. 

SWTOR is the greatest mmo ever!

  rygard49

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/22/11
Posts: 985

5/03/13 1:48:21 PM#265
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by rygard49

Okay.

I have 400 mystic points.

I want to buy a potion for 550 mystic points.

The cash shop has mystic points on sale for $5 for 500, $10 for 1100, $20 for 2500, $50 for 7000, and $100 for 15000.

I spend $10 for a balance of 1500 mystic points, and am left with 950 after I buy the potion.

How much real world money did I spend on the potion?

How much money did you spend on the points? $10. That's how much money came out of your wallet that you will never get back. 

You're sidestepping the question, because it can't be answered. You can't know what you spent on the item because of the fluctuating value of the currency depending on how much you spend. You know the total what you spent, but not the total value of what you're getting.

  BeansnBread

Elite Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 5416

5/03/13 1:57:08 PM#266
Originally posted by rygard49
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by rygard49

Okay.

I have 400 mystic points.

I want to buy a potion for 550 mystic points.

The cash shop has mystic points on sale for $5 for 500, $10 for 1100, $20 for 2500, $50 for 7000, and $100 for 15000.

I spend $10 for a balance of 1500 mystic points, and am left with 950 after I buy the potion.

How much real world money did I spend on the potion?

How much money did you spend on the points? $10. That's how much money came out of your wallet that you will never get back. 

You're sidestepping the question, because it can't be answered. You can't know what you spent on the item because of the fluctuating value of the currency depending on how much you spend. You know the total what you spent, but not the total value of what you're getting.

It can be answered, I would just have to make a graph. And besides that, just over $5 for someone that buys small amounts of points at a time and just under $4 for someone that buys the largest package. I think that's a reasonable enough answer. Since you decided to buy $10 worth of points, that potion came out to exactly $5 if that was the only time you purchased points.

 

You spent $10. That is what came out of your wallet and it was completely in your control.

SWTOR is the greatest mmo ever!

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11360

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

5/03/13 2:00:55 PM#267
Originally posted by Cecropia
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Arclan

Your whole "play while it's fun" argument is weak. Imagine the movie industry worked that way. You see a movie trailer with epic action, and it is Free to Watch! But after buying popcorn and soda, and watching the movie for an hour, it abruptly stops. Want to see the end? That cost money.

You just described expansion packs in a subscription MMO. 

Not quite. Most MMOs allow to continue to play the game even without the expansion.

None of this affects me though as the two MMOs that I play do not charge for expansions.

Yes, you can continue to play just like you can continue to play in F2P, you just can't continue to advance to the new level unless you buy the expansion in most MMO expansions.

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11360

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

5/03/13 2:04:49 PM#268
Originally posted by udon
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by rygard49

You don't have to answer this, this is rhetorical: Haven't you ever seen something that someone else had, and then went out and obtained that thing out of desire to also have it? That could be clothes, cars, a novel skill, a specific knowledge... pretty much anything. That's the human behavior I'm suggesting F2P games try to tap into.

Yes. But that behavior is not universal in all situations. F2P games is tapping into a small percentage of people who would do that, and let others play for free.

I think it much more common than you think.  Why else do you think the server announes everytime someone wins one of thsoe rare items out a random cash shop key box in F2P games?  Everytime you see one of those messages there is a precentage of the player base that looks at all those unopened boxes in their inventory and wonders if they bought just a few keys if they to could have what that other person got.  It works really well.

It's announcement of someone winning a big jackpot, just like at a casino. Appealling to one's desire to be in on the action is completely different than what rygard is suggesting. The former has a wider appeal and the latter appeals to a much smaller group.

 

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11360

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

5/03/13 2:06:58 PM#269
Originally posted by rygard49
Originally posted by colddog04

With a F2P model, you also know exactly how much will be coming out of your wallet.

Okay.

I have 400 mystic points provided as seed currency. A common cash shop tactic.

I want to buy a potion for 550 mystic points.

The cash shop has mystic points on sale for $5 for 500, $10 for 1100, $20 for 2500, $50 for 7000, and $100 for 15000.

I spend $10 for a balance of 1500 mystic points, and am left with 950 after I buy the potion.

How much real world money did I spend on the potion?

 

Edit to clarify where the original 400 came from.

You spend $10 on points, and a fraction of that on the potion.

  udon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/23/07
Posts: 1464

5/03/13 2:08:07 PM#270
Originally posted by rygard49
Originally posted by udon

But that model doesn't promise that either anymore.  I'll give you a example.  A new expansion for MMOx is released and everyone who subs goes out and buys it (expansions costs money in most P2P games) than they go out and start to level only to find that there are not enough quests to get to the next max level without grinding unless you buy double XP potions in the cash shop.  In this case not only did being monthly sub not promise I wouldn't have to buy new content but it also didn't promise there would be enough of that content to level without using the cash shop.

P2P and B2P are myth's these days.  They no longer exist in thier pure form.  And while I might agree that a true 100% P2P game has some advantages over a F2P game I don't believe most sub based games with a cash shop do.  At the end of the day if you put that $15 a month into the cash shop in many of those games (Not all) you would end up at the same point.

You're using a pay to win cash shop in a pay to play game as an example. There aren't a whole lot of those, and they're all scams as well.

There is only two P2P games I can think of that don't have XP potions for sale in them are because they are time based advancement games instead of XP based.

Almost all sub based games on the market today have large cash shops.  Most have converted to a combined P2P plus cash shop model.

TSW's model is my favorite by far.  Buy the game once than use the cash shop as you want.  You can play that game forever and spend very little other than the upfront cost.  GW2's is ok but has a few items in the cash shop that I don't like.

And BTW I don't think most people would consider XP potions as P2W.  I certainly don't.  Not that I like the habit of devleopers releasing content that encourages you to use them in sub games but regradless they are not P2W any more than a mount is.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17961

5/03/13 6:03:52 PM#271
Originally posted by neobahamut20

 

Free to play with cash shop: The game is provided free of cost but we put so many restrictions that you have to buy stuff to actually enjoy it.

You are obviously wrong. Why? Because there are many players, including me, who plays F2P games without paying a cent.

And we obviously enjoy it. Otherwise, we won't be playing.

So your statement cannot be true for all games, for all players. In particular, it is wrong regarding me.

  Sagasaint

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/25/11
Posts: 473

I don't always play MMOs, but when I do, I play sandboxes

5/03/13 7:29:08 PM#272
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by neobahamut20

 

Free to play with cash shop: The game is provided free of cost but we put so many restrictions that you have to buy stuff to actually enjoy it.

You are obviously wrong. Why? Because there are many players, including me, who plays F2P games without paying a cent.

And we obviously enjoy it. Otherwise, we won't be playing.

So your statement cannot be true for all games, for all players. In particular, it is wrong regarding me.

didnt you admit hopping fairly often between games? more specifically, everytime you hit the cash wall and stopped having fun?

  Robokapp

Elite Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4152

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

5/03/13 7:38:42 PM#273
Originally posted by Sagasaint
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by neobahamut20

 

Free to play with cash shop: The game is provided free of cost but we put so many restrictions that you have to buy stuff to actually enjoy it.

You are obviously wrong. Why? Because there are many players, including me, who plays F2P games without paying a cent.

And we obviously enjoy it. Otherwise, we won't be playing.

So your statement cannot be true for all games, for all players. In particular, it is wrong regarding me.

didnt you admit hopping fairly often between games? more specifically, everytime you hit the cash wall and stopped having fun?

that's basically the f2p playstyle though.

 

isn't that why it's good to have so many f2ps to choose from? 

  Sagasaint

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/25/11
Posts: 473

I don't always play MMOs, but when I do, I play sandboxes

5/03/13 8:51:16 PM#274
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by Sagasaint
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by neobahamut20

 

Free to play with cash shop: The game is provided free of cost but we put so many restrictions that you have to buy stuff to actually enjoy it.

You are obviously wrong. Why? Because there are many players, including me, who plays F2P games without paying a cent.

And we obviously enjoy it. Otherwise, we won't be playing.

So your statement cannot be true for all games, for all players. In particular, it is wrong regarding me.

didnt you admit hopping fairly often between games? more specifically, everytime you hit the cash wall and stopped having fun?

that's basically the f2p playstyle though.

 

isn't that why it's good to have so many f2ps to choose from? 

I get that. I just cant make the connection between that and "having fun"

 

to me it sounds like getting the boot, regardless of how much one was previously enjoying the game before the proverbial "wall". it doesnt seem like players are in control of when they stops playing the game.

 

so, if someone was having fun and all of a sudden the game becomes hostile enough towards him that he feels compelled to abandon it, no matter how much he wanted to stay....what motivates someone to repeat that same experience?

 

I dont understand people like nariusseldon. its like watching the first 30 minutes of a movie and then getting kicked out of the cinema...and then again...and again....and again....seriously, that sounds enervating to me.

 

but of course, different strokes for different folks, and if that works for him, Im happy for him. but still, I cant understand him.

  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4329

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

5/03/13 8:57:08 PM#275
Movies end though.  MMO's don't.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11360

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

5/03/13 9:18:35 PM#276
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by neobahamut20

Free to play with cash shop: The game is provided free of cost but we put so many restrictions that you have to buy stuff to actually enjoy it.

You are obviously wrong. Why? Because there are many players, including me, who plays F2P games without paying a cent.

And we obviously enjoy it. Otherwise, we won't be playing.

So your statement cannot be true for all games, for all players. In particular, it is wrong regarding me.

There are plenty like you. Actually, the majority are like you, playing and enjoying the games while not paying any money. That violates the foundations of a lot of their talking points, though, so it gets largely ignored.

  Scot

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 4742

5/04/13 4:04:10 AM#277

If anyone here believes that 'F2P' is going to exist from here on in only funded by "whales" then you need to think again. The purpose of the cash shop F2P model is to make money. The way MMO's are funded is changing as we speak, F2P is becoming P2W. Subcriptions are appearing in so called F2P MMO's. 

The idea you are going to get a free ride forever more is wishful thinking at best. Just as the the fact most MMO's were subscription held back the F2P model, the lack of P2W is holding back the P2W model. But the line has already been crossed, P2W will go on now to become an every larger part of so called F2P MMO's.

In that MMO environment do you think the guy who rides on the coatails will not be focused on to see what the cash shop can get out of him? He will not end up paying as much as those whales but he is going to end up paying something.

  udon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/23/07
Posts: 1464

5/04/13 1:13:35 PM#278
Originally posted by Scot

If anyone here believes that 'F2P' is going to exist from here on in only funded by "whales" then you need to think again. The purpose of the cash shop F2P model is to make money. The way MMO's are funded is changing as we speak, F2P is becoming P2W. Subcriptions are appearing in so called F2P MMO's. 

The idea you are going to get a free ride forever more is wishful thinking at best. Just as the the fact most MMO's were subscription held back the F2P model, the lack of P2W is holding back the P2W model. But the line has already been crossed, P2W will go on now to become an every larger part of so called F2P MMO's.

In that MMO environment do you think the guy who rides on the coatails will not be focused on to see what the cash shop can get out of him? He will not end up paying as much as those whales but he is going to end up paying something.

The problem with true P2W is that unless you are willing to spend as much as the largest whale you always lose.  You might be able to make it so you don't lose as badly or you might even be able to overcome some advantages with good play but at the end of the day the person with the largest wallet will always win.  I am thinking of games where you can pay real cash to level up gear to whatever numbers your credit limit can support for instance.  You might be able to beat someone who is +2 above you but there is nothing to stop them from going +4, +6, or even more.

So knowing that going into the P2W game unless you are willing to be the biggest wallet the only resonable stratagy is just to not play at all.  That's the biggest pitfall P2W games have, there is a point where you drive far more of your players off than you can make up by those that remain.

 

  Cor4x

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/22/05
Posts: 232

5/04/13 4:21:39 PM#279
Originally posted by Sagasaint
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by Sagasaint
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by neobahamut20

 

Free to play with cash shop: The game is provided free of cost but we put so many restrictions that you have to buy stuff to actually enjoy it.

You are obviously wrong. Why? Because there are many players, including me, who plays F2P games without paying a cent.

And we obviously enjoy it. Otherwise, we won't be playing.

So your statement cannot be true for all games, for all players. In particular, it is wrong regarding me.

didnt you admit hopping fairly often between games? more specifically, everytime you hit the cash wall and stopped having fun?

that's basically the f2p playstyle though.

 

isn't that why it's good to have so many f2ps to choose from? 

I get that. I just cant make the connection between that and "having fun"

 

to me it sounds like getting the boot, regardless of how much one was previously enjoying the game before the proverbial "wall". it doesnt seem like players are in control of when they stops playing the game.

 

so, if someone was having fun and all of a sudden the game becomes hostile enough towards him that he feels compelled to abandon it, no matter how much he wanted to stay....what motivates someone to repeat that same experience?

 

I dont understand people like nariusseldon. its like watching the first 30 minutes of a movie and then getting kicked out of the cinema...and then again...and again....and again....seriously, that sounds enervating to me.

 

but of course, different strokes for different folks, and if that works for him, Im happy for him. but still, I cant understand him.

Well, I'm a lot like you, but I understand the others.

Some people are more obsessive about the games and like to achieve something within the framework.

I like to "complete" something. Some people don't. Narius & Robo are happy with the journey and/or making new characters. I have friends like them as well. They appreciate the journey.

With some games, I'm like this too. However, I usually have my eye on the end-game.

My views on FTP are blogged, so I won't go into them here, but I won't EVER spend money on an FTP game. I'll just quit and go do something else.

However, it also burns my hide when I have to do something 4x (or much much more) as hard as the guy that shelled out $20 or whatever at the cash shop.

I don't even feel anything when I bail because I paid nothing for the "game". That is where the Narius crowd and I see eye to eye.

B2P, on the other hand, worked with GW1. Not so much with GW2, but I knew that. My friends just whined FOR MONTHS until I broke down and bought it. Not horrible, but bleh.

Typically, for the client, the best option is a subscription. I know they're going to want me to stay around. I don't feel their fingers in my pockets constantly. I, also, know they're going to develop more content and systems.

So FTP is much more expensive than a P2P game for less enjoyment (for me). Ergo, I play P2P games.

Now, I've heard the argument where people (almost always) say: "I always spend less than a subscription!" but I've never, ever seen that in numbers or real life.

I have, however, seen people spend over $2k (that'd be thousand) dollars in a month in games like Runes of Magic on leveling up equipment. That, I don't understand.

 

  XxGrimmxX

Novice Member

Joined: 6/03/09
Posts: 242

5/04/13 4:29:16 PM#280
I know that LoL isn't an mmo but they seem to have gotten it right. Tera also has a great cash shop. Developers need to be doing their cash shop like Tera and LoL imo.
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