Trending Games | Warframe | TERA | Path of Exile | World of Warcraft

    Facebook Twitter YouTube Twitch.tv
Login:  Password:   Remember?  
Show Quick Gamelist Jump to Random Game
Members:3,026,581 Users Online:0
Games:843  Posts:6,482,420
Rift (Rift)
Trion Worlds | Official Site
MMORPG | Setting:Fantasy | Status:Final  (rel 03/01/11)  | Pub:Trion Worlds
PVP:Yes | Distribution:Download | Retail Price:Free | Pay Type:Free | Monthly Fee:Free
System Req: PC | Out of date info? Let us know!

General Discussion Forum » The Pub at MMORPG.COM » Cash Shops Ruined MMO's

6 Pages « 1 2 3 4 5 6 » Search
119 posts found
  Holice

Novice Member

Joined: 1/12/08
Posts: 118

4/22/13 11:19:12 AM#61
Originally posted by michniewicz
Originally posted by RizelStar
Holy shit where can I download this Far Cry 3 MMO?

Uh way to miss the point,   which is that gameplay design choices that wouldnt be tolerated in a buy the box game are  tolerated in mmo's.

Well to be fair to mmo devs, they need to try and keep you in the game as long as possible so you don't outpace the content, which still happens no matter how hard they try. While boxed games are "usually" one stop shopping, although now a days, with downloadable content, single player games are trying to screw you too.
 

 

  VengeSunsoar

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 5270

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

4/22/13 11:24:02 AM#62
Originally posted by Ghost12
Originally posted by atticusbc
Originally posted by Ghost12
Originally posted by atticusbc
Originally posted by Ghost12
Originally posted by atticusbc
Originally posted by Ghost12
Originally posted by atticusbc
Originally posted by Ghost12
snip 
snip

alrighty then.

first off, nowhere in my post did i suggest or give evidence to a "vendetta against P2P..." i was merely pointing out the fact, which many people seem happy to ignore in fits of partisanship, that p2p game sare just as vulnerable to greed as f2p. both models are simply ways to get money, and some people will, and have, innevitably abused them. also addiction, in many cases, goes a little beyond personal accountability. while it is certainly the player's fault for spending money on a cahs shop, the compulsion to play goes well beyond will. just ask a smoker or alcoholic.

Well the way that you described WoW, sounds like many of the people hating the model that WoW uses. 

See once again this stems from the notion that there is some sort of "greed" factor. But I wouldnt call it greed, these companies need to make  money in order to stay afloat. 

The main different between a cash shop and a P2P model is that with P2P you are garunteed the full game for a set price. 

With a cash shop, you can exploit the playerbase much more. You are not giving the full game with a cash shop game, especially if its P2W. Its unclear how much money you are going to spend in order to play the full game and be competitive!

Once again I will use Inotia 4 as an example. This is a single player action-rpg and I estimate in order to stay competitive throughout the entire game I would have spent an easy 50$ in the cash shop - 5 times as much as the average game in the Android store!

which leads me to your second point: if one buys from a cash shop, one can only blame oneself. your desire to have it be cosmetic is understandable, and is one which i share, but even if it is, buying something from it is on the purchaser. if someone buys something from a cash shop in a p2w game, they don't get to complain about how awful p2w games are. 

I agree

lastly, i will concede that you may have more experience in older games than me. however. the community you encounter is created by one thing: the people. i have found the same types of players you remember in every game i have ever played. most lately in gw2. sure there are some people who are just rushing content, and who demand certain specs from the people they play with, but i have also seen level 80s help out newbies, and people laugh off a party wipe. and that's in a dreaded b2p game with a cash shop. so yeah. it's the people not the game, and people always have a choice on how they want to play.

I could not disagree more. 

Tell me, if you are running a strip club, what kind of patrons do you have in your facility? Now are you going  to have the same patrons coming to a kid's playground? I think not. The same goes for games. You are not going to have the same community in a themepark rpg game then in FFA PvP Darkfall. 

 

 

1.  Aactually likely many of the same patrons are parents and so will go to a kids playground.

2.  Your analogy only makes sense if you view older games and newer games as that different.   I don't.  I see many of the exact same features just sped up.

There has been very little change in the market since 2000.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  aleos

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/02/07
Posts: 1915

Imagination is the only weapon in the war against reality.

4/22/13 11:24:02 AM#63

The original model was Subscription

then games started to suck.. real bad

now the model is f2p or b2p

MMO's still suck real bad

 

 

Cash shops went crazy the day world of warcraft sold a mount to 10 million people for 15 or 20 bucks.

my numbers could be wrong but i do remember the moment.

  User Deleted
4/22/13 11:24:08 AM#64
Originally posted by korent1991
Originally posted by Ghost12
Originally posted by atticusbc
Originally posted by Ghost12

Well, what do you expect? A year or so ago people were on here screaming about how P2P is "old" and the new, brighter future for MMOs is going to be B2P and F2P with cash shops. I remember the GW2 fanatics on this forum screaming P2P is DEAD!!! LONG LIVE F2P!!

Little did they know they were killing their own videogames.

Cash shops have ruined MMOs, absolutely - especially the ones where they slow down progression in order to force to you buy from the shop. Its sickening and ruins the point of gaming. Since where did gaming become about progression? 

Older MMOS were about community, socialization, role playing and exploration. They were not virtual stat treadmills were it was all about increasing some sheet of numbers. Even PvP games like DAOC had a very strong roleplaying base and community where you were not pressured into increasing the power of your character.

And this cash shop is not only MMOs now. What about phone games. I just got a real smartphone, and I've been playing some of the F2P games on here. Its just like MMOs - you are pretty much forced to buy power up items from their cash shop in order to progress in the game. Its sickening and you would actually end up paying MORE in the cash shop for these games then paying the money up front to buy the game in a traditional manner. 

For example, I tried out this game called "Inotia 4". An action-rpg style game where 2-3 hours into the game, the game becomes unbearably difficult and you have to prettymuch buy from the cash shop in order to survive, and these items are EXPENSIVE! We're  talking 3-4$ for one sword. ONE SWORD. Really? One sword that will become obsolete in another hour or so of gamplay. Unbelievable.

Just imagine Diablo with a cash shop. Sound fun to you?

first off: they do that in p2p games to get naother month's sub out of you. sorry to bust your bubble. p2p games are just as vulnerable to greed as any f2p. look at WoW. box fee, $15/month, plus expansions (another box fee) every year or so. add in a skinner box to keep you addicted, and random junk to slow you up and keep you paying. yeah. that's just great right there.

How is publishing content greedy? What do you expect - what do you want? People need to be paid for their time,one way or another. People put hard spent time in making these expansions for WoW, they need to be paid for their time.

To get you addicted? What ever happened to personal accountability. YOU GOT YOURSELF ADDICTED! If you cant handle playing games and handle your time, THEN DONT PLAY! Its a problem with the player, not the game.

Its your fault for playing a game like WoW. Its was pretty obvious to me that when WoW released WOTLK that it was an endless gear grind. It was your choice to keep on playing. Period. End of story. Gear score? How could anyone put up with that nonsense is beyond me.

The bottom line is that people need to be paid and your vendetta against P2P is absurd. The big difference between P2P and F2P is that P2P makes it much more difficult for developers to exploit players. A cash shop makes it *very* easy for developers to exploit players. 

 

haha, so now you're saying they should charge you everything they come up with and label it as "expansion".. EVE is doing it right and since you're paying monthly sub you get free expansions. You're just being contradictory and you're saying it's a good thing they milk you out with redicolous sub prices but when a B2P or F2P game asks for 5$ trough a cash shop it's suddenly greedy and your rampage greed alert goes ballistic.

absurd is the fact that some people won't realise how P2P isn't a good pay model if you want to keep your newly published game alive in todays market, and not to mention it can bring a lot more profit if implemented the right way.

No I'm not. 

Once again I said this before and I'll say it again: with P2P you are getting the garunteed full game. 

With Cash shop you are not. You have no idea how much you will have to spend to stay competitive. And that's the problem. You will probably end up paying more to stay competitive and more for the full game then if you are playing a P2P game!

How is 10-15 a month ridiculous sub prices? These are reasonable and its always been that way.

In fact I cant believe I am defending P2P. It should be obvious. Cash shops also ruin immersion. So you got the Holy Sword of Destruction by paying $20 in the cash shop?

How is P2P not a good pay model? If a game is good, people will pay for it. End of story. We have 10 years of WoW that will attest for that! With a F2P game, these games usually degrade in quality, like SWTOR. Let's travel over to the SWTOR forums. Whats the biggest thread? People complaining about players running around in exploited, bugged nude armor? 

And tell me, are these F2P games all that great? Let's go to a well established F2P game. Runes of Magic. Let's go over to their forum. Do the players seem happy? Most people said once cash shop hit the game, it started to suck. Go ahead and read!

  VengeSunsoar

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 5270

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

4/22/13 11:26:36 AM#65
Originally posted by aleos

The original model was Subscription

then games started to suck.. real bad

now the model is f2p or b2p

MMO's still suck real bad

 

 

Cash shops went crazy the day world of warcraft sold a mount to 10 million people for 15 or 20 bucks.

my numbers could be wrong but i do remember the moment.

 Hmm well the original model was pay per hour. 

P2p and f2p emerged at about the same time but p2p became more popular.  MMo's have always had a large percentage of people who think they suck.

However today there are hundreds of MMO's which likely has a lot of influence in why it's hard to retain customers.

However I do believe new games have just as much longevity as old games and have/will old roughly the same size audience as old games for the same amount of time. 

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Nadia

Tipster

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11863

4/22/13 11:27:01 AM#66
Originally posted by Ghost12

How is P2P not a good pay model? If a game is good, people will pay for it. End of story. We have 10 years of WoW that will attest for that! With a F2P game, these games usually degrade in quality, like SWTOR. Let's travel over to the SWTOR forums. Whats the biggest thread? People complaining about players running around in exploited, bugged nude armor? 

no offtense but WOW is no sacred cow -- with its Cash shop mounts and pets

 

I call that double dipping:  paying a sub and having a Cash shop

  User Deleted
4/22/13 11:28:21 AM#67
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Ghost12
Originally posted by atticusbc
Originally posted by Ghost12
Originally posted by atticusbc
Originally posted by Ghost12
Originally posted by atticusbc
Originally posted by Ghost12
Originally posted by atticusbc
Originally posted by Ghost12
snip 
snip

alrighty then.

first off, nowhere in my post did i suggest or give evidence to a "vendetta against P2P..." i was merely pointing out the fact, which many people seem happy to ignore in fits of partisanship, that p2p game sare just as vulnerable to greed as f2p. both models are simply ways to get money, and some people will, and have, innevitably abused them. also addiction, in many cases, goes a little beyond personal accountability. while it is certainly the player's fault for spending money on a cahs shop, the compulsion to play goes well beyond will. just ask a smoker or alcoholic.

Well the way that you described WoW, sounds like many of the people hating the model that WoW uses. 

See once again this stems from the notion that there is some sort of "greed" factor. But I wouldnt call it greed, these companies need to make  money in order to stay afloat. 

The main different between a cash shop and a P2P model is that with P2P you are garunteed the full game for a set price. 

With a cash shop, you can exploit the playerbase much more. You are not giving the full game with a cash shop game, especially if its P2W. Its unclear how much money you are going to spend in order to play the full game and be competitive!

Once again I will use Inotia 4 as an example. This is a single player action-rpg and I estimate in order to stay competitive throughout the entire game I would have spent an easy 50$ in the cash shop - 5 times as much as the average game in the Android store!

which leads me to your second point: if one buys from a cash shop, one can only blame oneself. your desire to have it be cosmetic is understandable, and is one which i share, but even if it is, buying something from it is on the purchaser. if someone buys something from a cash shop in a p2w game, they don't get to complain about how awful p2w games are. 

I agree

lastly, i will concede that you may have more experience in older games than me. however. the community you encounter is created by one thing: the people. i have found the same types of players you remember in every game i have ever played. most lately in gw2. sure there are some people who are just rushing content, and who demand certain specs from the people they play with, but i have also seen level 80s help out newbies, and people laugh off a party wipe. and that's in a dreaded b2p game with a cash shop. so yeah. it's the people not the game, and people always have a choice on how they want to play.

I could not disagree more. 

Tell me, if you are running a strip club, what kind of patrons do you have in your facility? Now are you going  to have the same patrons coming to a kid's playground? I think not. The same goes for games. You are not going to have the same community in a themepark rpg game then in FFA PvP Darkfall. 

 

 

1.  Aactually likely many of the same patrons are parents and so will go to a kids playground.

Oh come on, give me a break! 

2.  Your analogy only makes sense if you view older games and newer games as that different.   I don't.  I see many of the exact same features just sped up.

There has been very little change in the market since 2000.

Let's be reasonable here, I think anyone is going to agree that you are not going to have the same crowd playing WoW and Darkfall. They attract different crowds. 

 

  VengeSunsoar

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 5270

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

4/22/13 11:29:01 AM#68

Is there a pure p2p game left on the market today at all?

 

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  User Deleted
4/22/13 11:29:15 AM#69
I agree cash shops and these varied models have ruined pc gaming. Thats why im out of it. Once you get a feel for what it takes to play these games, time and money, hey by all means if your into giving that away go ahead. It's not appealing to me.
  VengeSunsoar

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 5270

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

4/22/13 11:29:37 AM#70
Originally posted by Ghost12
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Ghost12
Originally posted by atticusbc
Originally posted by Ghost12
Originally posted by atticusbc
Originally posted by Ghost12
Originally posted by atticusbc
Originally posted by Ghost12
Originally posted by atticusbc
Originally posted by Ghost12
snip 
snip

alrighty then.

first off, nowhere in my post did i suggest or give evidence to a "vendetta against P2P..." i was merely pointing out the fact, which many people seem happy to ignore in fits of partisanship, that p2p game sare just as vulnerable to greed as f2p. both models are simply ways to get money, and some people will, and have, innevitably abused them. also addiction, in many cases, goes a little beyond personal accountability. while it is certainly the player's fault for spending money on a cahs shop, the compulsion to play goes well beyond will. just ask a smoker or alcoholic.

Well the way that you described WoW, sounds like many of the people hating the model that WoW uses. 

See once again this stems from the notion that there is some sort of "greed" factor. But I wouldnt call it greed, these companies need to make  money in order to stay afloat. 

The main different between a cash shop and a P2P model is that with P2P you are garunteed the full game for a set price. 

With a cash shop, you can exploit the playerbase much more. You are not giving the full game with a cash shop game, especially if its P2W. Its unclear how much money you are going to spend in order to play the full game and be competitive!

Once again I will use Inotia 4 as an example. This is a single player action-rpg and I estimate in order to stay competitive throughout the entire game I would have spent an easy 50$ in the cash shop - 5 times as much as the average game in the Android store!

which leads me to your second point: if one buys from a cash shop, one can only blame oneself. your desire to have it be cosmetic is understandable, and is one which i share, but even if it is, buying something from it is on the purchaser. if someone buys something from a cash shop in a p2w game, they don't get to complain about how awful p2w games are. 

I agree

lastly, i will concede that you may have more experience in older games than me. however. the community you encounter is created by one thing: the people. i have found the same types of players you remember in every game i have ever played. most lately in gw2. sure there are some people who are just rushing content, and who demand certain specs from the people they play with, but i have also seen level 80s help out newbies, and people laugh off a party wipe. and that's in a dreaded b2p game with a cash shop. so yeah. it's the people not the game, and people always have a choice on how they want to play.

I could not disagree more. 

Tell me, if you are running a strip club, what kind of patrons do you have in your facility? Now are you going  to have the same patrons coming to a kid's playground? I think not. The same goes for games. You are not going to have the same community in a themepark rpg game then in FFA PvP Darkfall. 

 

 

1.  Aactually likely many of the same patrons are parents and so will go to a kids playground.

Oh come on, give me a break! 

2.  Your analogy only makes sense if you view older games and newer games as that different.   I don't.  I see many of the exact same features just sped up.

There has been very little change in the market since 2000.

Let's be reasonable here, I think anyone is going to agree that you are not going to have the same crowd playing WoW and Darkfall. They attract different crowds. 

 

 For the majority you are probably right, but if you don't think there is a lot of crossover you mistaken

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Nadia

Tipster

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11863

4/22/13 11:34:52 AM#71
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Is there a pure p2p game left on the market today at all?

theres a few but not many

I believe Warhammer and Asherons Call are sub games w no cash shop,  maybe DAOC too?

  aleos

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/02/07
Posts: 1915

Imagination is the only weapon in the war against reality.

4/22/13 11:37:56 AM#72
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by aleos

The original model was Subscription

then games started to suck.. real bad

now the model is f2p or b2p

MMO's still suck real bad

 

 

Cash shops went crazy the day world of warcraft sold a mount to 10 million people for 15 or 20 bucks.

my numbers could be wrong but i do remember the moment.

 Hmm well the original model was pay per hour. 

P2p and f2p emerged at about the same time but p2p became more popular.  MMo's have always had a large percentage of people who think they suck.

However today there are hundreds of MMO's which likely has a lot of influence in why it's hard to retain customers.

However I do believe new games have just as much longevity as old games and have/will old roughly the same size audience as old games for the same amount of time. 

i started on ultima so p2p was "my original model" .. regardless

Just because there are a lot of MMO's is no excuse as to why people arent sticking to one.. when 80% of them are all the same anyway. why play the copy of the copy when you could play the original.

These games today arent built for longevity at all.. They're built for tourism.. come in, see the sights, visit the gift shop and gtfo.

Thats why there are so many. Spinning a web hoping to catch the money falling out of the sky.

Who cares if they're business and need to make money.. i play games

 

  Vesavius

Old School

Joined: 3/08/04
Posts: 7845

Players come for the game, but they stay for the people- Most Devs have forgotten this.

4/22/13 11:39:39 AM#73

Originally posted by korent1991

haha, so now you're saying they should charge you everything they come up with and label it as "expansion"..

 

There is clearly a difference in what you are typically buying in an expansion and what a cash shop continously tries to manipulate you into buying.

Expacks typically deliver playable game, and usually a lot of it.

Cash shops sell gambling lockboxes and instant 'rewards' (the same rewards that you once had to play for).

 

As a gamer I prefer to buy an expack to learn, explore, and generally play through for it's rewards then impulse buy a new hat as a self granted instant reward. So yes, put everything into an expansion and charge me for it, alongside the content to beat to earn it.

 

The OP is right generally. Cash shops are actually anti-game and bring nothing good to MMORPGs (unless you are one of the transient three games at once but won't spend a penny player base or a shareholder who will rake in the extra revenue squeezed from the weak and gulliable).

 

  VengeSunsoar

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 5270

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

4/22/13 11:40:43 AM#74
Originally posted by aleos
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by aleos

The original model was Subscription

then games started to suck.. real bad

now the model is f2p or b2p

MMO's still suck real bad

 

 

Cash shops went crazy the day world of warcraft sold a mount to 10 million people for 15 or 20 bucks.

my numbers could be wrong but i do remember the moment.

 Hmm well the original model was pay per hour. 

P2p and f2p emerged at about the same time but p2p became more popular.  MMo's have always had a large percentage of people who think they suck.

However today there are hundreds of MMO's which likely has a lot of influence in why it's hard to retain customers.

However I do believe new games have just as much longevity as old games and have/will old roughly the same size audience as old games for the same amount of time. 

i started on ultima so p2p was "my original model" .. regardless

Just because there are a lot of MMO's is no excuse as to why people arent sticking to one.. when 80% of them are all the same anyway. why play the copy of the copy when you could play the original.

These games today arent built for longevity at all.. They're built for tourism.. come in, see the sights, visit the gift shop and gtfo.

Thats why there are so many. Spinning a web hoping to catch the money falling out of the sky.

Who cares if they're business and need to make money.. i play games

 

 Your points could be considered true if it wasn't for the fact that they are retaining the same amount of players as games of old.  Between 50k and 500k.  Nothing has changed in that regard.  Approximately that many people stuck with old games, approximately that many people stick with new games.

I didn't mention anything about them being businesses and need to make money - red herring argument.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  thinktank001

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/13/08
Posts: 2050

4/22/13 11:44:00 AM#75
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

 Yes, how they achieve it is their problem.  If a f2p game slows me down and it's still fun I don't care, same with a p2p. 

The point was there was no difference there between a f2p and p2p in terms of them putting in roadblocks like that.

 

That is until your friends by those experience boosters and are at end game, but you are still leveling.    I guess there is always the possibility that you play all MMOs solo, but that always brings the question, why do you play MMOs?

  atticusbc

Novice Member

Joined: 9/22/07
Posts: 1079

I hated hipsters before hating hipsters was cool.

4/22/13 11:44:10 AM#76
Originally posted by Ghost12
Originally posted by atticusbc
Originally posted by Ghost12
Originally posted by atticusbc
Originally posted by Ghost12
Originally posted by atticusbc
Originally posted by Ghost12
Originally posted by atticusbc
Originally posted by Ghost12
snip 
snip

alrighty then.

first off, nowhere in my post did i suggest or give evidence to a "vendetta against P2P..." i was merely pointing out the fact, which many people seem happy to ignore in fits of partisanship, that p2p game sare just as vulnerable to greed as f2p. both models are simply ways to get money, and some people will, and have, innevitably abused them. also addiction, in many cases, goes a little beyond personal accountability. while it is certainly the player's fault for spending money on a cahs shop, the compulsion to play goes well beyond will. just ask a smoker or alcoholic.

Well the way that you described WoW, sounds like many of the people hating the model that WoW uses. 

See once again this stems from the notion that there is some sort of "greed" factor. But I wouldnt call it greed, these companies need to make  money in order to stay afloat. 

The main different between a cash shop and a P2P model is that with P2P you are garunteed the full game for a set price. 

With a cash shop, you can exploit the playerbase much more. You are not giving the full game with a cash shop game, especially if its P2W. Its unclear how much money you are going to spend in order to play the full game and be competitive!

Once again I will use Inotia 4 as an example. This is a single player action-rpg and I estimate in order to stay competitive throughout the entire game I would have spent an easy 50$ in the cash shop - 5 times as much as the average game in the Android store!.

which leads me to your second point: if one buys from a cash shop, one can only blame oneself. your desire to have it be cosmetic is understandable, and is one which i share, but even if it is, buying something from it is on the purchaser. if someone buys something from a cash shop in a p2w game, they don't get to complain about how awful p2w games are. 

I agree

lastly, i will concede that you may have more experience in older games than me. however. the community you encounter is created by one thing: the people. i have found the same types of players you remember in every game i have ever played. most lately in gw2. sure there are some people who are just rushing content, and who demand certain specs from the people they play with, but i have also seen level 80s help out newbies, and people laugh off a party wipe. and that's in a dreaded b2p game with a cash shop. so yeah. it's the people not the game, and people always have a choice on how they want to play.

I could not disagree more. 

Tell me, if you are running a strip club, what kind of patrons do you have in your facility? Now are you going  to have the same patrons coming to a kid's playground? I think not. The same goes for games. You are not going to have the same community in a themepark rpg game then in FFA PvP Darkfall.  

personally, i enjoy the freedom which f2p grants me. since i am allowed to determine how much, or how little, i want to spend on the game i feel less like i am wasting money if i want to stop playing. that said, i also enjoy having the full game open to me, since there are often content gates like in LotRO or DDO in f2p games, which is why i like b2p games a lot. GW2 has an excellent model right now in my opinion. and because i enjoy their game and their model, and because i want to support them, i give them $10 when i can afford it. on the flip side of the coin, no, i am not a fan of WoW, either in terms of its mechanics or its pay style (i.e. box+sub+expac+cash shop). whether it is actually motivated by greed... i have no idea. it certainly comes off that way though. EvE is an excellent example of p2p done right in my opinion.

nice to see we agree on something.

and for the final point, i believe you misunderstood me. i was talking about how player's approach the game, as opposed to the kind of activities they engage in. grinds and the like only occur if the players allow them to. that is, if it takes x to get to level y, the player can either mess around, do x when they feel like it, and get to y later without grinding, or they can do x until y and have... grinded? ground? so what i was saying is you can either enjoy the game as you want to, on your terms, or you can go hardcore at it. player attitude essentially, and it is this attitude to which i am referring.

  VengeSunsoar

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 5270

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

4/22/13 11:46:09 AM#77
Originally posted by thinktank001
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

 Yes, how they achieve it is their problem.  If a f2p game slows me down and it's still fun I don't care, same with a p2p. 

The point was there was no difference there between a f2p and p2p in terms of them putting in roadblocks like that.

 

That is until your friends by those experience boosters and are at end game, but you are still leveling.    I guess there is always the possibility that you play all MMOs solo, but that always brings the question, why do you play MMOs?

 The why do you play MMO's if you solo has been answered so many times anyone still asking it is just trolling.

edit - and if I enjoy the leveling I don't care if friends pass me.  If I don't enjoy the leveling, xp boosters won't change that.  I won't play the game.

edit -end game means nothing to me.  Never made it there in any game ever anyway.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  aleos

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/02/07
Posts: 1915

Imagination is the only weapon in the war against reality.

4/22/13 11:48:28 AM#78
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by aleos
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by aleos

The original model was Subscription

then games started to suck.. real bad

now the model is f2p or b2p

MMO's still suck real bad

 

 

Cash shops went crazy the day world of warcraft sold a mount to 10 million people for 15 or 20 bucks.

my numbers could be wrong but i do remember the moment.

 Hmm well the original model was pay per hour. 

P2p and f2p emerged at about the same time but p2p became more popular.  MMo's have always had a large percentage of people who think they suck.

However today there are hundreds of MMO's which likely has a lot of influence in why it's hard to retain customers.

However I do believe new games have just as much longevity as old games and have/will old roughly the same size audience as old games for the same amount of time. 

i started on ultima so p2p was "my original model" .. regardless

Just because there are a lot of MMO's is no excuse as to why people arent sticking to one.. when 80% of them are all the same anyway. why play the copy of the copy when you could play the original.

These games today arent built for longevity at all.. They're built for tourism.. come in, see the sights, visit the gift shop and gtfo.

Thats why there are so many. Spinning a web hoping to catch the money falling out of the sky.

Who cares if they're business and need to make money.. i play games

 

 Your points could be considered true if it wasn't for the fact that they are retaining the same amount of players as games of old.  Between 50k and 500k.  Nothing has changed in that regard.  Approximately that many people stuck with old games, approximately that many people stick with new games.

I didn't mention anything about them being businesses and need to make money - red herring argument.

lmfao.. i'd like to see that pie chart that says 50k to 500k players are ACTUALLY playing their game. Not logging on for an hour.. playing.. and never logging on again.

  User Deleted
4/22/13 11:50:24 AM#79
Originally posted by atticusbc
Originally posted by Ghost12
Originally posted by atticusbc
Originally posted by Ghost12
Originally posted by atticusbc
Originally posted by Ghost12
Originally posted by atticusbc
Originally posted by Ghost12
Originally posted by atticusbc
Originally posted by Ghost12
snip 
snip

alrighty then.

first off, nowhere in my post did i suggest or give evidence to a "vendetta against P2P..." i was merely pointing out the fact, which many people seem happy to ignore in fits of partisanship, that p2p game sare just as vulnerable to greed as f2p. both models are simply ways to get money, and some people will, and have, innevitably abused them. also addiction, in many cases, goes a little beyond personal accountability. while it is certainly the player's fault for spending money on a cahs shop, the compulsion to play goes well beyond will. just ask a smoker or alcoholic.

Well the way that you described WoW, sounds like many of the people hating the model that WoW uses. 

See once again this stems from the notion that there is some sort of "greed" factor. But I wouldnt call it greed, these companies need to make  money in order to stay afloat. 

The main different between a cash shop and a P2P model is that with P2P you are garunteed the full game for a set price. 

With a cash shop, you can exploit the playerbase much more. You are not giving the full game with a cash shop game, especially if its P2W. Its unclear how much money you are going to spend in order to play the full game and be competitive!

Once again I will use Inotia 4 as an example. This is a single player action-rpg and I estimate in order to stay competitive throughout the entire game I would have spent an easy 50$ in the cash shop - 5 times as much as the average game in the Android store!.

which leads me to your second point: if one buys from a cash shop, one can only blame oneself. your desire to have it be cosmetic is understandable, and is one which i share, but even if it is, buying something from it is on the purchaser. if someone buys something from a cash shop in a p2w game, they don't get to complain about how awful p2w games are. 

I agree

lastly, i will concede that you may have more experience in older games than me. however. the community you encounter is created by one thing: the people. i have found the same types of players you remember in every game i have ever played. most lately in gw2. sure there are some people who are just rushing content, and who demand certain specs from the people they play with, but i have also seen level 80s help out newbies, and people laugh off a party wipe. and that's in a dreaded b2p game with a cash shop. so yeah. it's the people not the game, and people always have a choice on how they want to play.

I could not disagree more. 

Tell me, if you are running a strip club, what kind of patrons do you have in your facility? Now are you going  to have the same patrons coming to a kid's playground? I think not. The same goes for games. You are not going to have the same community in a themepark rpg game then in FFA PvP Darkfall.  

personally, i enjoy the freedom which f2p grants me. since i am allowed to determine how much, or how little, i want to spend on the game i feel less like i am wasting money if i want to stop playing. that said, i also enjoy having the full game open to me, since there are often content gates like in LotRO or DDO in f2p games, which is why i like b2p games a lot. GW2 has an excellent model right now in my opinion. and because i enjoy their game and their model, and because i want to support them, i give them $10 when i can afford it. on the flip side of the coin, no, i am not a fan of WoW, either in terms of its mechanics or its pay style (i.e. box+sub+expac+cash shop). whether it is actually motivated by greed... i have no idea. it certainly comes off that way though. EvE is an excellent example of p2p done right in my opinion.

nice to see we agree on something.

and for the final point, i believe you misunderstood me. i was talking about how player's approach the game, as opposed to the kind of activities they engage in. grinds and the like only occur if the players allow them to. that is, if it takes x to get to level y, the player can either mess around, do x when they feel like it, and get to y later without grinding, or they can do x until y and have... grinded? ground? so what i was saying is you can either enjoy the game as you want to, on your terms, or you can go hardcore at it. player attitude essentially, and it is this attitude to which i am referring.

 

See the problem is that theres simply not many games that have the model of DDO, LOTRO and GW2. I agree, these  models arent bad per se. I would not mind models like these. But the problem is that there simply arent that many games that follow these models. 

Most F2P games have a cash shop that you must use in order to stay competitive. And thats a big problem. I have an android phone. In both multiplayer and single player F2P games, 99% of them have cash shops. Hell, even Angry birds have cash shops now. And its a big problem. People asking for F2P dont know what they are asking for. They are asking for P2W. Now there are exceptions of course, but they are few in far between and I fear they will be ignored in favor for P2W.

 

With P2W, developers will have full control over how much money you need to spend in order to stay competitive. Hell, you could buy the best sword of destruction for 30$ today and tommorow they could release an even stronger weapon that you will have to pay for. To me, thats scary. Really scary.

  VengeSunsoar

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 5270

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

4/22/13 11:53:18 AM#80
Originally posted by aleos
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by aleos
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by aleos

The original model was Subscription

then games started to suck.. real bad

now the model is f2p or b2p

MMO's still suck real bad

 

 

Cash shops went crazy the day world of warcraft sold a mount to 10 million people for 15 or 20 bucks.

my numbers could be wrong but i do remember the moment.

 Hmm well the original model was pay per hour. 

P2p and f2p emerged at about the same time but p2p became more popular.  MMo's have always had a large percentage of people who think they suck.

However today there are hundreds of MMO's which likely has a lot of influence in why it's hard to retain customers.

However I do believe new games have just as much longevity as old games and have/will old roughly the same size audience as old games for the same amount of time. 

i started on ultima so p2p was "my original model" .. regardless

Just because there are a lot of MMO's is no excuse as to why people arent sticking to one.. when 80% of them are all the same anyway. why play the copy of the copy when you could play the original.

These games today arent built for longevity at all.. They're built for tourism.. come in, see the sights, visit the gift shop and gtfo.

Thats why there are so many. Spinning a web hoping to catch the money falling out of the sky.

Who cares if they're business and need to make money.. i play games

 

 Your points could be considered true if it wasn't for the fact that they are retaining the same amount of players as games of old.  Between 50k and 500k.  Nothing has changed in that regard.  Approximately that many people stuck with old games, approximately that many people stick with new games.

I didn't mention anything about them being businesses and need to make money - red herring argument.

lmfao.. i'd like to see that pie chart that says 50k to 500k players are ACTUALLY playing their game. Not logging on for an hour.. playing.. and never logging on again.

 Well a very quick search does give me this

http://www.mmodata.net/ - for what data it is worth.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

6 Pages « 1 2 3 4 5 6 » Search