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General Discussion Forum » The Pub at MMORPG.COM » Cash Shops Ruined MMO's

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119 posts found
  User Deleted
4/22/13 9:45:35 AM#41

If people are willing to spend $3 for a cup of coffee and $2 for a bottle of water, they're willing to spend money for anything.

 

Hop into the wayback machine... if someone told my grandfather (who's been dead for nearly 20 years now) that they would be selling coffee for $3 a pop, he would have laughed out loud.  

 

Consider for a moment that the people who are promoting this buy to play mentality are the people who are playing the games... the developers are only giving us what we want.  Stop buying ingame pets and whatnot and they will stop offering them.

 

Clearly people have more money to waste than they think they do...

  User Deleted
4/22/13 10:19:01 AM#42
Originally posted by atticusbc
Originally posted by Ghost12

Well, what do you expect? A year or so ago people were on here screaming about how P2P is "old" and the new, brighter future for MMOs is going to be B2P and F2P with cash shops. I remember the GW2 fanatics on this forum screaming P2P is DEAD!!! LONG LIVE F2P!!

Little did they know they were killing their own videogames.

Cash shops have ruined MMOs, absolutely - especially the ones where they slow down progression in order to force to you buy from the shop. Its sickening and ruins the point of gaming. Since where did gaming become about progression? 

Older MMOS were about community, socialization, role playing and exploration. They were not virtual stat treadmills were it was all about increasing some sheet of numbers. Even PvP games like DAOC had a very strong roleplaying base and community where you were not pressured into increasing the power of your character.

And this cash shop is not only MMOs now. What about phone games. I just got a real smartphone, and I've been playing some of the F2P games on here. Its just like MMOs - you are pretty much forced to buy power up items from their cash shop in order to progress in the game. Its sickening and you would actually end up paying MORE in the cash shop for these games then paying the money up front to buy the game in a traditional manner. 

For example, I tried out this game called "Inotia 4". An action-rpg style game where 2-3 hours into the game, the game becomes unbearably difficult and you have to prettymuch buy from the cash shop in order to survive, and these items are EXPENSIVE! We're  talking 3-4$ for one sword. ONE SWORD. Really? One sword that will become obsolete in another hour or so of gamplay. Unbelievable.

Just imagine Diablo with a cash shop. Sound fun to you?

first off: they do that in p2p games to get naother month's sub out of you. sorry to bust your bubble. p2p games are just as vulnerable to greed as any f2p. look at WoW. box fee, $15/month, plus expansions (another box fee) every year or so. add in a skinner box to keep you addicted, and random junk to slow you up and keep you paying. yeah. that's just great right there.

How is publishing content greedy? What do you expect - what do you want? People need to be paid for their time,one way or another. People put hard spent time in making these expansions for WoW, they need to be paid for their time.

To get you addicted? What ever happened to personal accountability. YOU GOT YOURSELF ADDICTED! If you cant handle playing games and handle your time, THEN DONT PLAY! Its a problem with the player, not the game.

Its your fault for playing a game like WoW. Its was pretty obvious to me that when WoW released WOTLK that it was an endless gear grind. It was your choice to keep on playing. Period. End of story. Gear score? How could anyone put up with that nonsense is beyond me.

The bottom line is that people need to be paid and your vendetta against P2P is absurd. The big difference between P2P and F2P is that P2P makes it much more difficult for developers to exploit players. A cash shop makes it *very* easy for developers to exploit players. 

secondly: no one ever forces you to buy from a cash shop. there's this thing called "not playing" if the game is truly p2w. you're like a carpenter who hit his thumb with a hammer, and is now complaining about home depot selling him the hammer. you did this to yourself. it's your fault. if you don't like p2w, then don't play p2w games.

And? So what? How did I do this "to myself"? By buying a F2P game and maybe hoping their cash shop would only include cosmetic items? Or perhaps they could make it where its not absolutely mandatory to buy items to power up my character?

And uhh, yes I do think there is this thing called "not playing". I think its called "uninstall."

lastly: take off your nostalgia glasses. the only thing that's changed in games is that you have begun paying attention to the hardcore elements of games. they've always been there though, i assure you.

EDIT: color coded for convenience.

No. *facepalm*

Its pretty obvious that games have changed. Its pretty clear to me that either A) you never played MMOs from 1998-2004 or B) You have played them and forgotten how they truly were like.

I've played a bit of SWGemu and its vastly different from most current games. It isnt nostalgia at all. Its the real deal. These games foster communities and a socializing player base. Yes, there is grinding, but there are clear gear caps. 

I also tried DAOC Uthgard. The ultimate irony there is that they just made it harder to grind for XP, but it feels less hardcore than modern MMOs. Why? Because there is less emphasis on grinding by the community and more emphasis on enjoying the game, socializing, grouping and the like. "PUGS" don't really exist. 

 

  hardmode25

Novice Member

Joined: 1/28/13
Posts: 14

4/22/13 10:23:21 AM#43
lol...its easy just dont play games made in usa!!!!
  thecapitaine

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/06/11
Posts: 389

4/22/13 10:25:55 AM#44

Implementation matters most and all cash shops are not created equally.  It's easy to focus on the negatives (P2W, lack of content development in favor of the shop, etc) but there are some positives as well.  As much as F2P gets bashed here, the reality is that the quality level between F2P and P2P games has greatly diminished.  In fact, many of those lauded P2P games now are F2P.  Without cash shops, the landscape would look a lot different, with far fewer games sticking around and an even bigger tendency for big publishers to avoid risk by giving us more of the same.  STO, GW2, TSW, Tera, Lotro, EQ2, Planetside 2, and lots of other games either wouldn't be around or would have far smaller fanbases if the games didn't have cash shops to help keep them afloat.

 

Then there is the reality that by having a cash shop, many games are able to offer all their base content to players for free.  Again, there's a strong bias here against so-called freeloaders but it misses the point that MMOs thrive on having an active playerbase.  Speaking from experience, nothing killed my desire to play SWTOR more than logging into the game and having 30-odd total people on a planet I was questing in.  Anyway, beyond allowing more people to experience the game and perhaps spend money in the store (or on a sub), it also means that  players have a lot more flexibility than they once had.  In a good cash shop system, players have a lot more choice of when they spend their money and what they spend their money on than on the traditional P2P model. 

  furbans

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/10/13
Posts: 874

4/22/13 10:30:22 AM#45
Originally posted by Ghost12
Originally posted by atticusbc
Originally posted by Ghost12
 

first off: they do that in p2p games to get naother month's sub out of you. sorry to bust your bubble. p2p games are just as vulnerable to greed as any f2p. look at WoW. box fee, $15/month, plus expansions (another box fee) every year or so. add in a skinner box to keep you addicted, and random junk to slow you up and keep you paying. yeah. that's just great right there.

How is publishing content greedy? What do you expect - what do you want? People need to be paid for their time,one way or another. People put hard spent time in making these expansions for WoW, they need to be paid for their time.

To get you addicted? What ever happened to personal accountability. YOU GOT YOURSELF ADDICTED! If you cant handle playing games and handle your time, THEN DONT PLAY! Its a problem with the player, not the game.

Its your fault for playing a game like WoW. Its was pretty obvious to me that when WoW released WOTLK that it was an endless gear grind. It was your choice to keep on playing. Period. End of story. Gear score? How could anyone put up with that nonsense is beyond me.

The bottom line is that people need to be paid and your vendetta against P2P is absurd. The big difference between P2P and F2P is that P2P makes it much more difficult for developers to exploit players. A cash shop makes it *very* easy for developers to exploit players. 


 

I don't think that the addiction meant drug addict addiction where babies dies due to parents being addicted to an MMO.  If I'm paying for a P2P MMO then I have a soft addiction where I stick to that one game even though I will constantly bitch, moan, and complain bout X game all the time.  It's a continuous carrot on the stick.

Also I think both are very exploitable regardless of being P2P or F2P.  P2P you giving 15 bucks evey month... that is an exploit when your content doesn't justify it.  You spend easily as much if not more in a P2P than a F2P.  F2P is more out in the open and not hidden like P2P.   B2P is the best imo as it makes Devs strive to continuously push for quality, at least more so that P2P or F2P.

  atticusbc

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/22/07
Posts: 1054

I hated hipsters before hating hipsters was cool.

4/22/13 10:32:45 AM#46
Originally posted by Ghost12
Originally posted by atticusbc
Originally posted by Ghost12
snip 
snip

 

okay. you need to take a big step back and cool off. when you have done this, reply to this post and we can continue to have this discussion.

edit: if you feel the need to take this post as an insult or personal attack, don't bother responding. i would like to discuss this with you, but only if you're not going to tear my throat out.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19281

4/22/13 10:35:04 AM#47
Originally posted by michniewicz
Originally posted by RizelStar
Holy shit where can I download this Far Cry 3 MMO?

Uh way to miss the point,   which is that gameplay design choices that wouldnt be tolerated in a buy the box game are  tolerated in mmo's.

It is tolerated in Dead Space 3. In fact, it was the best selling game in the month it was released.

And if you don't like it, you don't have to play.

Personally, i see nothing wrong. If a game is fun without using the cashshop, i play it. Otherwise not. There are plenty that are fun.

  User Deleted
4/22/13 10:38:46 AM#48
Originally posted by atticusbc
Originally posted by Ghost12
Originally posted by atticusbc
Originally posted by Ghost12
snip 
snip

 

okay. you need to take a big step back and cool off. when you have done this, reply to this post and we can continue to have this discussion.

edit: if you feel the need to take this post as an insult or personal attack, don't bother responding. i would like to discuss this with you, but only if you're not going to tear my throat out.

You think this is someone getting upset at you? Then you need to spend more time debating 

Would you like me to pepper my next post with a bunch of smilies to make you feel better?

  Paradigm68

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/24/11
Posts: 878

4/22/13 10:42:41 AM#49
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

As opposed to a game purposely being made slow to get you to pay another month, or putting in a bunch of things that slow down your levelling or combat just to get you to sub another month.

IMO there are a number of f2p games that are better than many p2p games now.

The first time I played WoW it took me a solid week of farming to get the 100 gold needed to get a mount.  Completely unfun, but the rest of the game was fun so I kept at it.  When I did get the mount there was no sense of achievement, nothing special or unique.  I will never play that way again.

No, it doesn't work that way. If a sub game slowed down game play to get you to sub again, it wouldn't work for more than a month. Maybe 2 if your not too sharp. And usually it's with promised updates/content, not game play.  I've seen it happen. Back when Age of Conan launched, FC used to promise new content just after the next billing cycle (since it was near launch they knew the majority of their players had the same or very similar billing cycles) . It got to be a joke and it didn't work. With sub games, the drive is to make the game fun enough to keep you subbed. Granted I'm sure they have lots of tricks, but the point is, ultimately the game must be fun to play or people walk. Its the f2p games that have to gear the game play to drive players towards the shop because it's their only source of revenue. They literally have no choice.

Regarding your mount, I don't know about now, but back when I played WoW you couldn't get your mount til you were level 40, and if you didn't have 100g by then, it was your own fault, and if you couldn't figure out how to get a 100g except by grinding, again, your own fault. Given how easy it was to have 100g by level 40 and the ways to make that 100g besides grinding, it's hard to say it was a scheme to drive continued subs. If it was the risk of losing subs from pissed off players is too great. Its a much safer bet to just try to get them to resub because they like playing.

 

 

  atticusbc

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/22/07
Posts: 1054

I hated hipsters before hating hipsters was cool.

4/22/13 10:43:02 AM#50
Originally posted by Ghost12
Originally posted by atticusbc
Originally posted by Ghost12
Originally posted by atticusbc
Originally posted by Ghost12
snip 
snip

 

okay. you need to take a big step back and cool off. when you have done this, reply to this post and we can continue to have this discussion.

edit: if you feel the need to take this post as an insult or personal attack, don't bother responding. i would like to discuss this with you, but only if you're not going to tear my throat out.

You think this is someone getting upset at you? Then you need to spend more time debating 

Would you like me to pepper my next post with a bunch of smilies to make you feel better?

yeah, condescension doesn't help either. and i didn't say "debate," i said discuss. "debates" on this forum are flame wars, and people not reading each other's posts because they just want to respond. i recommend a discussion, where we are both interested in hearing what the other person has to say, and begin with the assumption that neither of us are entirely right or wrong. you know, like something bordering on adults.

  User Deleted
4/22/13 10:49:33 AM#51
Originally posted by atticusbc
Originally posted by Ghost12
Originally posted by atticusbc
Originally posted by Ghost12
Originally posted by atticusbc
Originally posted by Ghost12
snip 
snip

 

okay. you need to take a big step back and cool off. when you have done this, reply to this post and we can continue to have this discussion.

edit: if you feel the need to take this post as an insult or personal attack, don't bother responding. i would like to discuss this with you, but only if you're not going to tear my throat out.

You think this is someone getting upset at you? Then you need to spend more time debating 

Would you like me to pepper my next post with a bunch of smilies to make you feel better?

yeah, condescension doesn't help either. and i didn't say "debate," i said discuss. "debates" on this forum are flame wars, and people not reading each other's posts because they just want to respond. i recommend a discussion, where we are both interested in hearing what the other person has to say, and begin with the assumption that neither of us are entirely right or wrong. you know, like something bordering on adults.

 

And I could easily turn that around and say that these posts telling me I need to "cool off" is condescending as well. See how easy that is? Considering I spent a good deal of time and energy reading your post and formulating a response to them, I expect a response. My post does not contain personal attacks. If you think it does, then you need to re-read them and...cool off? 

You are wasting my time complaining about nonsense. Either respond to my post with a meaningful and well thought out counter argument, or don't.

EDIT: If you think my post did contain personal attacks, please let me know and I will address them. 

  Mtibbs1989

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2501

4/22/13 10:58:05 AM#52
Originally posted by michniewicz
Im sick of it.  The game is made purposly unfun or slow so you're lured into paying real money.  What happened to making a FUN game and letting that drive all the sales of boxes?  Why do I gotta play a gimped game and then pay to make it bearable?  None of these games design choices would stand up if they were regular buy the box game.  For example planet side 2,  I played it for a few days and started collecting Certs which is like the in game currency used to unlock weapons and what not,  but then I look at the cost of an unlock is and I have to play this game a week to all day everday to unlock 1 weapon.  What the hell is that?   Its cash shop crap.  Would far cry 3 been fun if you couldnt get a weapon until you farmed the game for a week?  Just little things like that, that ruine the games fun , all in the name of making more money that just has me discouraged with these pathetic games.  Im not spending a dime on them, if i had money to blow id buy a real game, I dont ever want to touch a game with a cash shop or anythign close to it , AGAIN.   That includes Guild Wars 2.

 I think you're missing the point of the high cost for Planet Side 2. Let me explain: You're playing the game for free and they're not giving free handouts. Which means you're going to have to work for your equipment more than someone who's paying for the game to stay online. Don't get selfish and self centered because games aren't catered to your every whim that's not how you should look at these games.

 You haven't ( won't ) spend a dime on the game that you're playing for free and that's fine it's doing great without you. However, people do like to actually work for their characters equipment that's what makes them better than you. I know, I know, it's all about the me, me, me mindset and how games should hand you the biggest and baddest weapons upfront. But give them a break! They're not charging you $60.00 for some recycled content like you'd get from Call of Duty.

 You're probably the same person who'd log into Age of Conan and say, "Hey! Why am I not level 80 with better gear than the next guy? This is BS!". These games don't make it unfair for you and they don't down right give better weapons that you'll never obtain to paying players. You just need to work hard to obtain those same items (Which is fine by me, I'm essentially playing the game for free). If you chooes the harder path (not pay) expect to work for your gear and take them as achievements through the hardwork and dedication you've put forth. 


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

  atticusbc

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/22/07
Posts: 1054

I hated hipsters before hating hipsters was cool.

4/22/13 11:07:32 AM#53
Originally posted by Ghost12
Originally posted by atticusbc
Originally posted by Ghost12
Originally posted by atticusbc
Originally posted by Ghost12
Originally posted by atticusbc
Originally posted by Ghost12
snip 
snip

alrighty then.

first off, nowhere in my post did i suggest or give evidence to a "vendetta against P2P..." i was merely pointing out the fact, which many people seem happy to ignore in fits of partisanship, that p2p game sare just as vulnerable to greed as f2p. both models are simply ways to get money, and some people will, and have, innevitably abused them. also addiction, in many cases, goes a little beyond personal accountability. while it is certainly the player's fault for spending money on a cahs shop, the compulsion to play goes well beyond will. just ask a smoker or alcoholic.

which leads me to your second point: if one buys from a cash shop, one can only blame oneself. your desire to have it be cosmetic is understandable, and is one which i share, but even if it is, buying something from it is on the purchaser. if someone buys something from a cash shop in a p2w game, they don't get to complain about how awful p2w games are. 

lastly, i will concede that you may have more experience in older games than me. however. the community you encounter is created by one thing: the people. i have found the same types of players you remember in every game i have ever played. most lately in gw2. sure there are some people who are just rushing content, and who demand certain specs from the people they play with, but i have also seen level 80s help out newbies, and people laugh off a party wipe. and that's in a dreaded b2p game with a cash shop. so yeah. it's the people not the game, and people always have a choice on how they want to play.

  korent1991

Elite Member

Joined: 5/01/09
Posts: 1405

4/22/13 11:07:44 AM#54
Originally posted by Ghost12
Originally posted by atticusbc
Originally posted by Ghost12

Well, what do you expect? A year or so ago people were on here screaming about how P2P is "old" and the new, brighter future for MMOs is going to be B2P and F2P with cash shops. I remember the GW2 fanatics on this forum screaming P2P is DEAD!!! LONG LIVE F2P!!

Little did they know they were killing their own videogames.

Cash shops have ruined MMOs, absolutely - especially the ones where they slow down progression in order to force to you buy from the shop. Its sickening and ruins the point of gaming. Since where did gaming become about progression? 

Older MMOS were about community, socialization, role playing and exploration. They were not virtual stat treadmills were it was all about increasing some sheet of numbers. Even PvP games like DAOC had a very strong roleplaying base and community where you were not pressured into increasing the power of your character.

And this cash shop is not only MMOs now. What about phone games. I just got a real smartphone, and I've been playing some of the F2P games on here. Its just like MMOs - you are pretty much forced to buy power up items from their cash shop in order to progress in the game. Its sickening and you would actually end up paying MORE in the cash shop for these games then paying the money up front to buy the game in a traditional manner. 

For example, I tried out this game called "Inotia 4". An action-rpg style game where 2-3 hours into the game, the game becomes unbearably difficult and you have to prettymuch buy from the cash shop in order to survive, and these items are EXPENSIVE! We're  talking 3-4$ for one sword. ONE SWORD. Really? One sword that will become obsolete in another hour or so of gamplay. Unbelievable.

Just imagine Diablo with a cash shop. Sound fun to you?

first off: they do that in p2p games to get naother month's sub out of you. sorry to bust your bubble. p2p games are just as vulnerable to greed as any f2p. look at WoW. box fee, $15/month, plus expansions (another box fee) every year or so. add in a skinner box to keep you addicted, and random junk to slow you up and keep you paying. yeah. that's just great right there.

How is publishing content greedy? What do you expect - what do you want? People need to be paid for their time,one way or another. People put hard spent time in making these expansions for WoW, they need to be paid for their time.

To get you addicted? What ever happened to personal accountability. YOU GOT YOURSELF ADDICTED! If you cant handle playing games and handle your time, THEN DONT PLAY! Its a problem with the player, not the game.

Its your fault for playing a game like WoW. Its was pretty obvious to me that when WoW released WOTLK that it was an endless gear grind. It was your choice to keep on playing. Period. End of story. Gear score? How could anyone put up with that nonsense is beyond me.

The bottom line is that people need to be paid and your vendetta against P2P is absurd. The big difference between P2P and F2P is that P2P makes it much more difficult for developers to exploit players. A cash shop makes it *very* easy for developers to exploit players. 

 

haha, so now you're saying they should charge you everything they come up with and label it as "expansion".. EVE is doing it right and since you're paying monthly sub you get free expansions. You're just being contradictory and you're saying it's a good thing they milk you out with redicolous sub prices but when a B2P or F2P game asks for 5$ trough a cash shop it's suddenly greedy and your rampage greed alert goes ballistic.

absurd is the fact that some people won't realise how P2P isn't a good pay model if you want to keep your newly published game alive in todays market, and not to mention it can bring a lot more profit if implemented the right way.

"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."
-------------------------------

  Mtibbs1989

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2501

4/22/13 11:11:22 AM#55
Originally posted by korent1991
Originally posted by Ghost12
Originally posted by atticusbc
Originally posted by Ghost12

Well, what do you expect? A year or so ago people were on here screaming about how P2P is "old" and the new, brighter future for MMOs is going to be B2P and F2P with cash shops. I remember the GW2 fanatics on this forum screaming P2P is DEAD!!! LONG LIVE F2P!!

Little did they know they were killing their own videogames.

Cash shops have ruined MMOs, absolutely - especially the ones where they slow down progression in order to force to you buy from the shop. Its sickening and ruins the point of gaming. Since where did gaming become about progression? 

Older MMOS were about community, socialization, role playing and exploration. They were not virtual stat treadmills were it was all about increasing some sheet of numbers. Even PvP games like DAOC had a very strong roleplaying base and community where you were not pressured into increasing the power of your character.

And this cash shop is not only MMOs now. What about phone games. I just got a real smartphone, and I've been playing some of the F2P games on here. Its just like MMOs - you are pretty much forced to buy power up items from their cash shop in order to progress in the game. Its sickening and you would actually end up paying MORE in the cash shop for these games then paying the money up front to buy the game in a traditional manner. 

For example, I tried out this game called "Inotia 4". An action-rpg style game where 2-3 hours into the game, the game becomes unbearably difficult and you have to prettymuch buy from the cash shop in order to survive, and these items are EXPENSIVE! We're  talking 3-4$ for one sword. ONE SWORD. Really? One sword that will become obsolete in another hour or so of gamplay. Unbelievable.

Just imagine Diablo with a cash shop. Sound fun to you?

first off: they do that in p2p games to get naother month's sub out of you. sorry to bust your bubble. p2p games are just as vulnerable to greed as any f2p. look at WoW. box fee, $15/month, plus expansions (another box fee) every year or so. add in a skinner box to keep you addicted, and random junk to slow you up and keep you paying. yeah. that's just great right there.

How is publishing content greedy? What do you expect - what do you want? People need to be paid for their time,one way or another. People put hard spent time in making these expansions for WoW, they need to be paid for their time.

To get you addicted? What ever happened to personal accountability. YOU GOT YOURSELF ADDICTED! If you cant handle playing games and handle your time, THEN DONT PLAY! Its a problem with the player, not the game.

Its your fault for playing a game like WoW. Its was pretty obvious to me that when WoW released WOTLK that it was an endless gear grind. It was your choice to keep on playing. Period. End of story. Gear score? How could anyone put up with that nonsense is beyond me.

The bottom line is that people need to be paid and your vendetta against P2P is absurd. The big difference between P2P and F2P is that P2P makes it much more difficult for developers to exploit players. A cash shop makes it *very* easy for developers to exploit players. 

 

haha, so now you're saying they should charge you everything they come up with and label it as "expansion".. EVE is doing it right and since you're paying monthly sub you get free expansions. You're just being contradictory and you're saying it's a good thing they milk you out with redicolous sub prices but when a B2P or F2P game asks for 5$ trough a cash shop it's suddenly greedy and your rampage greed alert goes ballistic.

absurd is the fact that some people won't realise how P2P isn't a good pay model if you want to keep your newly published game alive in todays market, and not to mention it can bring a lot more profit if implemented the right way.

 My thoughts exactly. Kudos to you!


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

  atticusbc

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/22/07
Posts: 1054

I hated hipsters before hating hipsters was cool.

4/22/13 11:14:09 AM#56
Originally posted by korent1991
Originally posted by Ghost12
Originally posted by atticusbc
Originally posted by Ghost12

haha, so now you're saying they should charge you everything they come up with and label it as "expansion".. EVE is doing it right and since you're paying monthly sub you get free expansions. You're just being contradictory and you're saying it's a good thing they milk you out with redicolous sub prices but when a B2P or F2P game asks for 5$ trough a cash shop it's suddenly greedy and your rampage greed alert goes ballistic.

absurd is the fact that some people won't realise how P2P isn't a good pay model if you want to keep your newly published game alive in todays market, and not to mention it can bring a lot more profit if implemented the right way.

both models have the capacity to be good and bad, and both have their niches. CU is going to be p2p, and i'm sure it will do quite well in its audience. but you emphasize my main point, and that is that both models are capable of ending up nickel and diming the player. EvE is an excellent counter-example to WoW's box+sub+expac trend.

  VengeSunsoar

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4723

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

4/22/13 11:17:23 AM#57
Originally posted by Ayulin
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

As opposed to a game purposely being made slow to get you to pay another month, or putting in a bunch of things that slow down your levelling or combat just to get you to sub another month.

Except they don't do that. Especially these days. You simply have the wrong understanding of what  MMO is supposed to be...as do many, many others.

MMOs are, at their core, intended to be on-going hobbies, not short-term games. Just as you would have to pay money to go golfing every week, or bowling, or fishing or any other hobby you participate in, playing a long-term MMO has an upkeep cost - and they are hobbies, hence the emphasis on that word.

Complaining that sub-based MMOs are "purposely being made slow to get you to pay another month" is completely missing the point, and illustrates a few things you seem to misunderstand about them.

MMOs are supposed to be long-term games, by design. Complaining that MMOs are "dragged out deliberately" - aside from being completely cynical and completely missing the point of them  - is like complaining that motorcycles have no windows you can roll up to keep the wind from blowing on you while you're riding. You're complaining about something being exactly what and how it's supposed to be.

The problem isn't that MMOs are "long and drawn out" (as you describe them), but what you're expecting them to be. You, through your arguments/complaints, seem to expect them to be fast-paced, short-term stints where anything you want can be yours very quickly (evidenced by your complaint about mounts later in your post), and be through them in a time that's subjectively reasonable to you (intended emphasis on that last bit, because it's an important distinction). And that's just not what they are, nor have they ever been.

In short, you're trying to force a square peg (what you expect MMOs to be) into a round hole (what they actually are), and then blaming the hole for being the wrong shape.

One of the major distinctions of MMOs that sets them apart from other genres, is that they are long-term hobbies to be participated in over time - over months or even years. They're not short-term games to be "finished" and set aside. This is why they continuously release content updates, expansion packs and so on. The idea is that, so long as the developers/designers can continue to provide enough content that players enjoy and want to stick around to participate in, along with the community and such that comes with it, that they'll continue to earn a sub fee, and be able to stay in business.

To revisit a point I made earlier, like (m)any other long-term hobbies, MMOs have a cost associated with them. You like golfing every weekend? Think that's free? Bowling? Fishing? Going to the movies? Collecting games/movies/cards/etc? Flying? Visiting an arcade? Etc. etc. etc? All of those are hobbies, and they all have associated costs to continuously participate in. MMOs are the same way. The only difference is, compared to all those other hobbies, MMOs are much, much cheaper in the long-run.

Sub-based MMOs are designed around the idea of keeping people entertained and engaged in the game enough to make that sub fee seem worthwhile month after month, so they'll keep playing. They have to earn that sub fee, 30/31 days at a time. No easy task.

This is what makes your argument about "dragging it out so people have to pay another month" flawed and rather short-sighted. If players aren't enjoying the game enough to stick around in the first place, the developer isn't getting another penny from them, no matter what their intentions are.

As with many, your arguments/complaints about sub-based MMOs are very much rooted in a fundamental misunderstanding of what they are, what they've always been, and how they're intended to be played/experienced.

IMO there are a number of f2p games that are better than many p2p games now.

Glad you said "IMO", because that's an entirely subjective remark.

The first time I played WoW it took me a solid week of farming to get the 100 gold needed to get a mount.  Completely unfun, but the rest of the game was fun so I kept at it.  When I did get the mount there was no sense of achievement, nothing special or unique.  I will never play that way again.

Well, for one... that it took you a week of farming tells me that it had a lot to do with your choice of activities. I know people who had more than enought o buy a mount by the time they reached the level where they could get one. Where you grinding head-on, straight through the levels, without taking time to do other things... such as crafting or harvesting or trying to work the AH, etc? If so, then that's likely why you found you had to farm for a week.

That said... A week to get enough money to get something that's going to benefit you for the rest of your time playing (which is , again, ideally months or years.. not days or weeks), is a worthy time investment. And it didn't cost you a single dime more out of your RL wallet to get. You earned that money by playing the game.

That you didn't find any sense of achievement in getting the mount makes me curious. What were you expecting? Fan-faire? Parades in  your name? I don't get it. You earned the money for a mount, you successfully obtained a mount. Mission accomplished.

Do they throw you parties and erect statues of you when you buy mounts from a cash shop in F2P MMOs?

What exactly were you expecting?

Again, this comes back to it not being a problem with the game's design, but with expectations you had for it, and assumed (or even demanded) be met.

There's plenty to say about the issues with F2P and why they're not the cat's meow so many want to believe they are (though more and more are starting to come around to realizing that as well). Unfortunately, I have to get to work (yay Monday), so that'll have to wait for a later post.

 

 

Except they don't do that. Especially these days. You simply have the wrong understanding of what MMO is supposed to be...as do many, many others.

Many old MMO's did do just that for the reason of getting you to play longer.  I never stated or implied anything of what an MMO is or is not supposed to be.  I personally do not believe what an MMO is supposed to be has anything to do with time.  Please do not make assumptions.

MMOs are, at their core, intended to be on-going hobbies, not short-term games. Just as you would have to pay money to go golfing every week, or bowling, or fishing or any other hobby you participate in, playing a long-term MMO has an upkeep cost - and they are hobbies, hence the emphasis on that word.

Complaining that sub-based MMOs are "purposely being made slow to get you to pay another month" is completely missing the point, and illustrates a few things you seem to misunderstand about them.

MMOs are supposed to be long-term games, by design. Complaining that MMOs are "dragged out deliberately" - aside from being completely cynical and completely missing the point of them - is like complaining that motorcycles have no windows you can roll up to keep the wind from blowing on you while you're riding. You're complaining about something being exactly what and how it's supposed to be.

Many old MMO's did do just that for the reason of getting you to play longer. I never stated or implied anything of what an MMO is or is not supposed to be. I personally do not believe what an MMO is supposed to be has anything to do with time. Please do not make assumptions. 

The problem isn't that MMOs are "long and drawn out" (as you describe them), but what you're expecting them to be. You, through your arguments/complaints, seem to expect them to be fast-paced, short-term stints where anything you want can be yours very quickly (evidenced by your complaint about mounts later in your post), and be through them in a time that's subjectively reasonable to you (intended emphasis on that last bit, because it's an important distinction). And that's just not what they are, nor have they ever been.

No.  See above. 

In short, you're trying to force a square peg (what you expect MMOs to be) into a round hole (what they actually are), and then blaming the hole for being the wrong shape.

No.  See above

One of the major distinctions of MMOs that sets them apart from other genres, is that they are long-term hobbies to be participated in over time - over months or even years. They're not short-term games to be "finished" and set aside. This is why they continuously release content updates, expansion packs and so on. The idea is that, so long as the developers/designers can continue to provide enough content that players enjoy and want to stick around to participate in, along with the community and such that comes with it, that they'll continue to earn a sub fee, and be able to stay in business.

No. See above

To revisit a point I made earlier, like (m)any other long-term hobbies, MMOs have a cost associated with them. You like golfing every weekend? Think that's free? Bowling? Fishing? Going to the movies? Collecting games/movies/cards/etc? Flying? Visiting an arcade? Etc. etc. etc? All of those are hobbies, and they all have associated costs to continuously participate in. MMOs are the same way. The only difference is, compared to all those other hobbies, MMOs are much, much cheaper in the long-run.

I have no problem with paying for an MMO.  The payment model, b2p, f2p or p2p I could care less about.  I object to things being put in the way just to make things take longer.  The OP talked about f2p being like that, well p2p was/did the exact same thing.

Sub-based MMOs are designed around the idea of keeping people entertained and engaged in the game enough to make that sub fee seem worthwhile month after month, so they'll keep playing. They have to earn that sub fee, 30/31 days at a time. No easy task.

This is what makes your argument about "dragging it out so people have to pay another month" flawed and rather short-sighted. If players aren't enjoying the game enough to stick around in the first place, the developer isn't getting another penny from them, no matter what their intentions are.

Same with f2p mmo's.  If they aren't enjoying the game in the first place, they won't stick around to buy something in the market. 

As with many, your arguments/complaints about sub-based MMOs are very much rooted in a fundamental misunderstanding of what they are, what they've always been, and how they're intended to be played/experienced.

No.  I don't believe MMO"s are supposed to be anything other than entertainment.  Anything they are supposed to be is simply your interpretation.

IMO there are a number of f2p games that are better than many p2p games now.

Glad you said "IMO", because that's an entirely subjective remark.

The first time I played WoW it took me a solid week of farming to get the 100 gold needed to get a mount. Completely unfun, but the rest of the game was fun so I kept at it. When I did get the mount there was no sense of achievement, nothing special or unique. I will never play that way again.

Well, for one... that it took you a week of farming tells me that it had a lot to do with your choice of activities. I know people who had more than enought o buy a mount by the time they reached the level where they could get one. Where you grinding head-on, straight through the levels, without taking time to do other things... such as crafting or harvesting or trying to work the AH, etc? If so, then that's likely why you found you had to farm for a week.

I have never grinded straight on for anything, excpt that mount.  I have very involved in crafting, at that time I was not working the AA.  I di not spend a single coin on anything.  By the time I hit 40 after several months of game play (I am slow) I had about 30 gold. 

That said... A week to get enough money to get something that's going to benefit you for the rest of your time playing (which is , again, ideally months or years.. not days or weeks), is a worthy time investment. And it didn't cost you a single dime more out of your RL wallet to get. You earned that money by playing the game.

And it was seriously boring.  It was not how I played the game to that point, not how I chose to play the game after that point. 

That you didn't find any sense of achievement in getting the mount makes me curious. What were you expecting? Fan-faire? Parades in your name? I don't get it. You earned the money for a mount, you successfully obtained a mount. Mission accomplished.

Do they throw you parties and erect statues of you when you buy mounts from a cash shop in F2P MMOs?

What exactly were you expecting?

Hmm I guess you don't understand the intrinsic sense of satisfaction that often comes with doing something that is either difficult or time-consuming.  Getting that mount did neither.

It was not fun, and did not give a sense of achievement.  In effect it was a waste of my entertainment time, hence why I will never do that again. 

 

Again, this comes back to it not being a problem with the game's design, but with expectations you had for it, and assumed (or even demanded) be met.

No.  I have no expectations of an MMO other than entertaining me.  That is the only purpose.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  User Deleted
4/22/13 11:17:37 AM#58
Originally posted by atticusbc
Originally posted by Ghost12
Originally posted by atticusbc
Originally posted by Ghost12
Originally posted by atticusbc
Originally posted by Ghost12
Originally posted by atticusbc
Originally posted by Ghost12
snip 
snip

alrighty then.

first off, nowhere in my post did i suggest or give evidence to a "vendetta against P2P..." i was merely pointing out the fact, which many people seem happy to ignore in fits of partisanship, that p2p game sare just as vulnerable to greed as f2p. both models are simply ways to get money, and some people will, and have, innevitably abused them. also addiction, in many cases, goes a little beyond personal accountability. while it is certainly the player's fault for spending money on a cahs shop, the compulsion to play goes well beyond will. just ask a smoker or alcoholic.

Well the way that you described WoW, sounds like many of the people hating the model that WoW uses. 

See once again this stems from the notion that there is some sort of "greed" factor. But I wouldnt call it greed, these companies need to make  money in order to stay afloat. 

The main different between a cash shop and a P2P model is that with P2P you are garunteed the full game for a set price. 

With a cash shop, you can exploit the playerbase much more. You are not giving the full game with a cash shop game, especially if its P2W. Its unclear how much money you are going to spend in order to play the full game and be competitive!

Once again I will use Inotia 4 as an example. This is a single player action-rpg and I estimate in order to stay competitive throughout the entire game I would have spent an easy 50$ in the cash shop - 5 times as much as the average game in the Android store!

which leads me to your second point: if one buys from a cash shop, one can only blame oneself. your desire to have it be cosmetic is understandable, and is one which i share, but even if it is, buying something from it is on the purchaser. if someone buys something from a cash shop in a p2w game, they don't get to complain about how awful p2w games are. 

I agree

lastly, i will concede that you may have more experience in older games than me. however. the community you encounter is created by one thing: the people. i have found the same types of players you remember in every game i have ever played. most lately in gw2. sure there are some people who are just rushing content, and who demand certain specs from the people they play with, but i have also seen level 80s help out newbies, and people laugh off a party wipe. and that's in a dreaded b2p game with a cash shop. so yeah. it's the people not the game, and people always have a choice on how they want to play.

I could not disagree more. 

Tell me, if you are running a strip club, what kind of patrons do you have in your facility? Now are you going  to have the same patrons coming to a kid's playground? I think not. The same goes for games. You are not going to have the same community in a themepark rpg game then in FFA PvP Darkfall. 

 

 

  Arclan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/29/07
Posts: 1328

"Ideas are worthless. The only currency that holds any weight is the ability and drive to execute."

4/22/13 11:17:56 AM#59


Originally posted by michniewicz
Im sick of it. ... I dont ever want to touch a game with a cash shop or anythign close to it , AGAIN. That includes Guild Wars 2.


Lots of us feel the same.



Originally posted by Yaevindusk

MMOs today are just giant cash grabs. To get some while the gettin's good.

..."newblood" are being trained to enjoy micro transactions...

...it is very easy to "train" a crowd to accept something by the next generation.

...


Brilliant post, and I'm highlighting a few points, above, with which I agree 100%.



Originally posted by Yaevindusk
...Ultima Online people were set against paying monthly fees.


Was UO was B2P? Can't remember back to 1998 when I spent a few hours trying out UO.

P L A N E T S I D E 1 is up !! check PS1 forum for link to current installer.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
video game company layoffs are twice the national average.

  ThomasN7

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/17/07
Posts: 6652

"Had to be me. Someone else might have gotten it wrong.” - Mordin Solus

4/22/13 11:18:30 AM#60

Cash shops just made it worse. MMOs were ruined a long time ago for many reasons such as publishers catering to investors instead of gamers and developers rehashing the same old concepts because it is the easier thing to do. God forbid devs actually put some heart and soul into there vision when thinking of what types of games are good to make. Only games that may have potential to save the mmo genre is Blizzard new mmo and Richard Garriot's Shroud of the Avatar.

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