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General Discussion Forum » The Pub at MMORPG.COM » Cash Shops Ruined MMO's

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119 posts found
  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

4/22/13 6:38:43 AM#21
Originally posted by Yaevindusk

 

MMOs today are just giant cash grabs. 

$12 per hour was a "cash grab", I guess. Arguable if the primitive networks at the time could have been kept running with cheaper price structures, or not.

Everythng else since has been relatively mild.

Smile and enjoy, your hobby is still an order of magnitude cheaper than some comparable forns of entertainment.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Derros

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/16/09
Posts: 1001

4/22/13 6:43:14 AM#22

Ironically, I can still progress faster in some of the newer Cash Shop MMOs, than I could in the P2P MMOs of old, such as EQ, or Anarchy online (although thats more because they had like 200 levels at launch)

 

What happened to all the people who were wishing things took longer in MMOs?

  DaezAster

Novice Member

Joined: 6/18/12
Posts: 789

4/22/13 6:47:54 AM#23
No problems with cash shops that arent forcing you to spend money especially when they make said items available by playing. Comparing itemization in an mmo with a single player game must of us would beat in a day or two is'nt really logical. Honestly most console and single player games now a days are two play sessions and send it back to gamefly, I wouldn't even consider buying most games these days even when there great games like bioshock!
  Whacko

Novice Member

Joined: 5/19/06
Posts: 136

4/22/13 7:17:46 AM#24

It's all about the microtransactions, MMOs are not dead but the microtransaction model is evolving in a wider range of genres. 

I blame the mobile platforms for this trend.

 

Most people don't even blink twice paying for an app on a phone right?

Now think about that same player and the same mindset in the MMO landscape. Why wouldn't the current MMOs tap into that source of revenue?

Back in the old days we didn't have to contend with all these things.  We bought the Box and we didn't even worry about a monthly subscription, we basically didn't have many choices for online play. We gladly paid that 15 bucks a month without even caring.

So if you really think about it the cash shop didn't ruin the MMO. 

It's the social aspects that undoubtly brainwashed todays casual player. The I want it now crowd is driving everything with cash shops.

  Volkon

Novice Member

Joined: 9/14/10
Posts: 3813

Facts do not require fiction for balance.

4/22/13 7:19:11 AM#25
I don't understand why GW2 was mentioned in the OP. They cash shop there has no effect on the game... if it disappeared gameplay would be unaffected. There are some bad ones out there where you can buy your way to the top, sure, but GW2 isn't one of 'em.

Oderint, dum metuant.

  GregorMcgregor

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/16/13
Posts: 194

4/22/13 7:22:14 AM#26

"Cash Shops Ruined MMO's"

 

Agreed! Hate them with a passion. F2P games are as bad for cursing us with it and it's nickel & dimeing! :(

No trials. No tricks. No traps. No EU-RP server. NO THANKS!


...10% Benevolence, 90% Arrogance in my case!

  Ayulin

Novice Member

Joined: 3/30/13
Posts: 344

4/22/13 7:23:20 AM#27
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

As opposed to a game purposely being made slow to get you to pay another month, or putting in a bunch of things that slow down your levelling or combat just to get you to sub another month.

Except they don't do that. Especially these days. You simply have the wrong understanding of what  MMO is supposed to be...as do many, many others.

MMOs are, at their core, intended to be on-going hobbies, not short-term games. Just as you would have to pay money to go golfing every week, or bowling, or fishing or any other hobby you participate in, playing a long-term MMO has an upkeep cost - and they are hobbies, hence the emphasis on that word.

Complaining that sub-based MMOs are "purposely being made slow to get you to pay another month" is completely missing the point, and illustrates a few things you seem to misunderstand about them.

MMOs are supposed to be long-term games, by design. Complaining that MMOs are "dragged out deliberately" - aside from being completely cynical and completely missing the point of them  - is like complaining that motorcycles have no windows you can roll up to keep the wind from blowing on you while you're riding. You're complaining about something being exactly what and how it's supposed to be.

The problem isn't that MMOs are "long and drawn out" (as you describe them), but what you're expecting them to be. You, through your arguments/complaints, seem to expect them to be fast-paced, short-term stints where anything you want can be yours very quickly (evidenced by your complaint about mounts later in your post), and be through them in a time that's subjectively reasonable to you (intended emphasis on that last bit, because it's an important distinction). And that's just not what they are, nor have they ever been.

In short, you're trying to force a square peg (what you expect MMOs to be) into a round hole (what they actually are), and then blaming the hole for being the wrong shape.

One of the major distinctions of MMOs that sets them apart from other genres, is that they are long-term hobbies to be participated in over time - over months or even years. They're not short-term games to be "finished" and set aside. This is why they continuously release content updates, expansion packs and so on. The idea is that, so long as the developers/designers can continue to provide enough content that players enjoy and want to stick around to participate in, along with the community and such that comes with it, that they'll continue to earn a sub fee, and be able to stay in business.

To revisit a point I made earlier, like (m)any other long-term hobbies, MMOs have a cost associated with them. You like golfing every weekend? Think that's free? Bowling? Fishing? Going to the movies? Collecting games/movies/cards/etc? Flying? Visiting an arcade? Etc. etc. etc? All of those are hobbies, and they all have associated costs to continuously participate in. MMOs are the same way. The only difference is, compared to all those other hobbies, MMOs are much, much cheaper in the long-run.

Sub-based MMOs are designed around the idea of keeping people entertained and engaged in the game enough to make that sub fee seem worthwhile month after month, so they'll keep playing. They have to earn that sub fee, 30/31 days at a time. No easy task.

This is what makes your argument about "dragging it out so people have to pay another month" flawed and rather short-sighted. If players aren't enjoying the game enough to stick around in the first place, the developer isn't getting another penny from them, no matter what their intentions are.

As with many, your arguments/complaints about sub-based MMOs are very much rooted in a fundamental misunderstanding of what they are, what they've always been, and how they're intended to be played/experienced.

IMO there are a number of f2p games that are better than many p2p games now.

Glad you said "IMO", because that's an entirely subjective remark.

The first time I played WoW it took me a solid week of farming to get the 100 gold needed to get a mount.  Completely unfun, but the rest of the game was fun so I kept at it.  When I did get the mount there was no sense of achievement, nothing special or unique.  I will never play that way again.

Well, for one... that it took you a week of farming tells me that it had a lot to do with your choice of activities. I know people who had more than enought o buy a mount by the time they reached the level where they could get one. Where you grinding head-on, straight through the levels, without taking time to do other things... such as crafting or harvesting or trying to work the AH, etc? If so, then that's likely why you found you had to farm for a week.

That said... A week to get enough money to get something that's going to benefit you for the rest of your time playing (which is , again, ideally months or years.. not days or weeks), is a worthy time investment. And it didn't cost you a single dime more out of your RL wallet to get. You earned that money by playing the game.

That you didn't find any sense of achievement in getting the mount makes me curious. What were you expecting? Fan-faire? Parades in  your name? I don't get it. You earned the money for a mount, you successfully obtained a mount. Mission accomplished.

Do they throw you parties and erect statues of you when you buy mounts from a cash shop in F2P MMOs?

What exactly were you expecting?

Again, this comes back to it not being a problem with the game's design, but with expectations you had for it, and assumed (or even demanded) be met.

There's plenty to say about the issues with F2P and why they're not the cat's meow so many want to believe they are (though more and more are starting to come around to realizing that as well). Unfortunately, I have to get to work (yay Monday), so that'll have to wait for a later post.

 

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12118

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

4/22/13 7:26:38 AM#28
Originally posted by maplestone ...so I'm confident you can see my reasoning (give or take my ability to explain it).  

I do. I was just having some fun being an ass there. ;) 

 

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fovoroth

  deamor

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/22/13
Posts: 7

4/22/13 7:29:39 AM#29
most of the time I see cash items have too much advantages over in-game currency. Take AVA for example, although it's not an MMORPG, but it's unarguably hard to get enough in-game currency to buy a gun, not to mention level limit. While paying players can buy them with a swipe of their cards.

 

I get it that games do need cash, and cash-paying players should have some advantages. But not to the point of ruining the fun of the game. The enjoyment of every players, paying or not, should be the most important thing, not the amount of cash the pay-players spend.

  botrytis

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2516

4/22/13 7:32:12 AM#30

Y'all are missing the point. With many CS games, you DON'T HAVE TO BUY TO PLAY, it is entirely optional. In games like Allods Online, which was Pay 2 Win, one had to buy perfume after level 30 just to be able to play (and it had a limited time which included all the time you were not logged in, so it always expired). It is another way to get people to play the game.

Many people are sick of the P2P monthly subs. If you geet the same amount of patches and new content with a F2P/CS and/or a B2P, as compared to a P2P, then you have a problem. The P2P companies are getting a yearly fee and you also have to buy the game. If they don't give more than the others, these games should die as they are doing it to themselves.

With a CS, think of it as giving money, willingly, to the company not have to pay for your fix.

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  stromp45

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 142

4/22/13 7:40:58 AM#31
Well id like you to show mw a mmo that doesnt have a cash shop they all do. Yes the F2P game have more but they spend multi years and alot of there money to make the game. so yes your going to pay one way or the other for it through quest packs of maybe a better weapon if you cant stand cash shops you might as well quit mmos and try single players.
  deamor

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/22/13
Posts: 7

4/22/13 8:11:00 AM#32
Originally posted by stromp45
Well id like you to show mw a mmo that doesnt have a cash shop they all do. Yes the F2P game have more but they spend multi years and alot of there money to make the game. so yes your going to pay one way or the other for it through quest packs of maybe a better weapon if you cant stand cash shops you might as well quit mmos and try single players.

ofc every MMO games have cash shop, but is it better to ruin the game of everyone else just to please the big spenders? The fundamential concept of business is to make sure every customers are happy, not only the customers who are paying the most.

I've played lots of games, yet very few have a balanced, or close to balanced, between paying and non-paying items.

  User Deleted
4/22/13 9:19:41 AM#33

Well, what do you expect? A year or so ago people were on here screaming about how P2P is "old" and the new, brighter future for MMOs is going to be B2P and F2P with cash shops. I remember the GW2 fanatics on this forum screaming P2P is DEAD!!! LONG LIVE F2P!!

 

Little did they know they were killing their own videogames.

 

Cash shops have ruined MMOs, absolutely - especially the ones where they slow down progression in order to force to you buy from the shop. Its sickening and ruins the point of gaming. Since where did gaming become about progression? 

Older MMOS were about community, socialization, role playing and exploration. They were not virtual stat treadmills were it was all about increasing some sheet of numbers. Even PvP games like DAOC had a very strong roleplaying base and community where you were not pressured into increasing the power of your character.

 

And this cash shop is not only MMOs now. What about phone games. I just got a real smartphone, and I've been playing some of the F2P games on here. Its just like MMOs - you are pretty much forced to buy power up items from their cash shop in order to progress in the game. Its sickening and you would actually end up paying MORE in the cash shop for these games then paying the money up front to buy the game in a traditional manner. 

For example, I tried out this game called "Inotia 4". An action-rpg style game where 2-3 hours into the game, the game becomes unbearably difficult and you have to prettymuch buy from the cash shop in order to survive, and these items are EXPENSIVE! We're  talking 3-4$ for one sword. ONE SWORD. Really? One sword that will become obsolete in another hour or so of gamplay. Unbelievable.

 

Just imagine Diablo with a cash shop. Sound fun to you?

  korent1991

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/01/09
Posts: 1405

4/22/13 9:29:33 AM#34
Originally posted by michniewicz
 Im not spending a dime on them, if i had money to blow id buy a real game, I dont ever want to touch a game with a cash shop or anythign close to it , AGAIN.   That includes Guild Wars 2.

well that's just it... not any game forces you to buy something in the cash shop. Now that you mentioned GW2 - anet has a great cash shop. There's absolutley nothing you can buy in there to make the game "easier" for you or to gain some advantage. Hell, even the outfits which are offered in the cash shop can't be worn in combat except the 3 most popular armor skins which are taken from GW1. 

If I were you I'd start playing games with cash shops which aren't trying to milk you dry rather than generalising and tossing every game in the same bracket with all the rest garbagase I've tried. :P

"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."
-------------------------------

  duggyfr3sh123

Novice Member

Joined: 4/19/13
Posts: 102

4/22/13 9:33:17 AM#35
MMO's were "ruined" since 2000.
  DamonVile

Elite Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4655

4/22/13 9:33:40 AM#36

I have no problems with a cash shop or free to play as a payment model. My problem with free to play is that most of them stop developing content in exchange for putting cosmetic items into the shop.

A few of them still develop the game but most don't once they go free to play. So sure they make lots of money in the short term doing this but the game still slowly dies.

This was my real issue with tera. I loved the game but with no new content and none in sight it got boring. The biggest thing going on there is a $60 maid outfit and what's new in the RNG box.  I still go back and play from time to time but I wont spend any money on the game as it is and still get bored in a few days.

A sub forces the devs to put new things into the game or it dies even faster in todays market. They have to keep you playing or they make nothing. That's a good thing for the players, but something devs seem to forget.

People are like cats. When they die, you get a new one.

  atticusbc

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/22/07
Posts: 1060

I hated hipsters before hating hipsters was cool.

4/22/13 9:34:24 AM#37
Originally posted by Ghost12

Well, what do you expect? A year or so ago people were on here screaming about how P2P is "old" and the new, brighter future for MMOs is going to be B2P and F2P with cash shops. I remember the GW2 fanatics on this forum screaming P2P is DEAD!!! LONG LIVE F2P!!

Little did they know they were killing their own videogames.

Cash shops have ruined MMOs, absolutely - especially the ones where they slow down progression in order to force to you buy from the shop. Its sickening and ruins the point of gaming. Since where did gaming become about progression? 

Older MMOS were about community, socialization, role playing and exploration. They were not virtual stat treadmills were it was all about increasing some sheet of numbers. Even PvP games like DAOC had a very strong roleplaying base and community where you were not pressured into increasing the power of your character.

And this cash shop is not only MMOs now. What about phone games. I just got a real smartphone, and I've been playing some of the F2P games on here. Its just like MMOs - you are pretty much forced to buy power up items from their cash shop in order to progress in the game. Its sickening and you would actually end up paying MORE in the cash shop for these games then paying the money up front to buy the game in a traditional manner. 

For example, I tried out this game called "Inotia 4". An action-rpg style game where 2-3 hours into the game, the game becomes unbearably difficult and you have to prettymuch buy from the cash shop in order to survive, and these items are EXPENSIVE! We're  talking 3-4$ for one sword. ONE SWORD. Really? One sword that will become obsolete in another hour or so of gamplay. Unbelievable.

Just imagine Diablo with a cash shop. Sound fun to you?

first off: they do that in p2p games to get naother month's sub out of you. sorry to bust your bubble. p2p games are just as vulnerable to greed as any f2p. look at WoW. box fee, $15/month, plus expansions (another box fee) every year or so. add in a skinner box to keep you addicted, and random junk to slow you up and keep you paying. yeah. that's just great right there.

secondly: no one ever forces you to buy from a cash shop. there's this thing called "not playing" if the game is truly p2w. you're like a carpenter who hit his thumb with a hammer, and is now complaining about home depot selling him the hammer. you did this to yourself. it's your fault. if you don't like p2w, then don't play p2w games.

lastly: take off your nostalgia glasses. the only thing that's changed in games is that you have begun paying attention to the hardcore elements of games. they've always been there though, i assure you.

EDIT: color coded for convenience.

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2393

World > Quest Progression

4/22/13 9:34:26 AM#38
Can a cash shop make and purchases from a game make it seem cheap and immersion breaking? Of course but that's the price for "free". Not only can you play for free but so can others which fills the world, making it more immersive.

There are a few options. Either pick a solely sub game, sub to the freemium game (most have a sub option), ignore the hitches of playing free or spend what you would on a sub in th cash shop.

I try not to look at what the company is making but how much my entertainment is worth. If the game is quality and your time is worth playing it why not spend money? The far cry example is great. How much is far cry to play? It had to have cost something.
  udon

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/23/07
Posts: 1605

4/22/13 9:37:22 AM#39

There are some F2P game models that have driven me away from the game for sure.  Things like endless weapon enchanments where you buy items to make it possible to make way better weapons than the ones you could ever expect to get without them for instance or loot boxes that drop in the world that you need a cash shop key to open that contains 90% of the new items that dvelopers are making.

Having said that there are also a number of cash shops that don't bother me to much. I hardly notice TSW's cash shop to be honest and given the money I save over a subscription more than covers anything I want to buy in that game.  I think Turbine and SOE's cash models are ok as well on the whole although both do have a few dark spots in them.

F2P is a convinence model not some community welfare project.  The model is setup to lower the cost of entry and if done right allow people to trade time in game grinding as a alternative to spending money in the cash shop.  People who spend massive amounts of money in a Cash Shop to rush the game is he eqivilent of buying very expensive cheat code magazines IMO.

People who say cash shops have "ruined" MMO's are taking their own worst preceptions and fears of those systems into the games and looking for reasons to hate them.  You are your own worst enemy when playing these games by not so much as trying to see the benifits of cash shops and writting them off before you even give them half a chance.

  Vorch

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/18/11
Posts: 808

4/22/13 9:42:29 AM#40

@Ghost

P2P is dying. It's extremely difficult to provide an experience that people are willing to pay 15 bucks a month for. For every P2P success, there are at least 5 P2P failures.  The issues is that the game must be designed for keeping players busy for months at a time between content releases. Ideally, your subscription should go towards CONSTANT updates on a monthly basis so that you are getting your money's worth...I think we know that 9 times out of 10 this is not the case. Developers instead create content that is time-gated to keep people in-line.

F2P comes with it's issues as well. Since there is virtually no barrier to entry, anyone can enter. These games almost always have ridiculous problems with rampant unabashed gold selling and bots. The community also tends to suffer.

There are "freemium" models in-between F2P and P2P. The one I think does it the WORST is SWTOR. The one I think that does it the BEST is TERA. You can look at each model and see why. The LOTRO model is a mixed bag, imo. I don't really like it.

Personally, I think B2P is the way to go.  These have the initial barrier to entry of most P2P games, but don't need additional funds to play the game. The only necessary charge is for expansions. Due to the funds initially collected and from expansions, the cash shop in these games can get away with providing convience and aesthetic items that are not necessary for gameplay. This is almost exactly the model adapted by newer console games. GW2 and recently TSW are both good examples of how you can build a game where B2P can provide a quality MMO experience with a slight barrier to entry. GW2 added a slight treadmill with ascended gear, but as it's not required until FotM 20+, I don't find that it bothers me.

 

 

All that being said, a game's quality is not determined by it's business model. Not all P2P and B2P games are good; not all F2P games are bad.

And cash-shops don't need to detract from the experience.

"As you read these words, a release is seven days or less away or has just happened within the last seven days— those are now the only two states you’ll find the world of Tyria."...Guild Wars 2

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