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General Discussion Forum » The Pub at MMORPG.COM » The myth of "The PvErs" vs. "The PvPers"?

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101 posts found
  Tanemund

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/29/09
Posts: 75

4/18/13 2:10:27 PM#61
Originally posted by waynejr2
Originally posted by ShakyMo
It's not a myth.

One need only look at the numerous "remove all pvp" threads you see during every games beta.

 Now now, common sense isn't allowed around here.  The same goes for facts.

IMO, there are both and combinations of them.

I think the reason you see that is that most MMOs have PvP as a kind of "stick on".  The game is designed to be a PvE experience and then late in the development someone decides, "We've got to give the people something to do between PvE expansions, so we'll stick in battlegrounds."  For PvP to be good in a game the game must be designed for PvP from the ground up.  It can't be a developmental "add on" to appeal to gamers who like to PvP.  I would rather have no PvP than afterthough, tack on PvP.

 

I'll repeat what I said in another thread.  I think for PvE and PvP to survive in the same game you have to isolate them from each other as much as possible.  The more they impact on one another the more the balance tips in favor of the most efficient game players, meaning the people who figure out how to get the most benefit for time spent in game or who just have more time to spend in game.

 

To me the thing that made it work in DAoC was the separation.  RvR was entirely voluntary and if you didn't want to RvR all you did was stay in your realm and PvE.  Eventually your toon would plateau in PvE.  You hit a "gear limit" and a level cap where, pretty much no matter how much you PvE ed after that your toon wasn't going to gain any more power.  By the same token, if you wanted your toon to get more powerful in RvR, you had to RvR and get realm ranks and realm points to by realm abilities.  Everyone had access to pretty much the same thing in PvE and RvR. 

 

It all made sense to me.  If I didn't want to get ganked by high level enemies, I stayed in my realm.  I could get to level cap and get geared up without interference, so I could eliminate the advantages of my enemy having more PvE time by simply refusing to engage until I caught up.  Then when I decided to go out on the frontier I did so knowing that the only advantages my enemy held on me were 1) any realm rank advantage he had for being on the frontier more than me and 2) his skill at playing his toon.

 

Where it broke down was the introduction of Trials of Atlantis where if you spent more time PvEing with your level 50 that toon got exponentially stronger in not only PvE, but in RvR as well.  Suddenly the toon everyone had been using in RvR sucessfully for over a year was bashed into a grease spot by a toon that had never seen the frontier before, but was wearing six artifacts and had all ten master levels done (things one did not have to PvP at all to get).  Suddenly PvE rewards had more impact on getting RvR rewards than either 1) skill or 2) time spent in RvR.

 

In my mind for it to work you almost have to design the PvE and PvP aspects of the game separately and keep them as separated as possible.  That prevents low levels from being ganked by high levels (unless the low levels voluntarily expose themselves to it) and it prevents the power creep in PvP that adding more PvE content to the game necessarily involves.

Many a small thing has been made large by the right kind of advertising.

  znaiika

Novice Member

Joined: 1/31/12
Posts: 202

4/18/13 2:31:52 PM#62
Originally posted by Axehilt

It's not a myth that PVE-only players are more common.

Although it'd be nice to have a non-biased poll to correctly measure things:

In your MMORPGs, how much time do you want to spend in each activity?

  • 100% PVE, 0% PVP
  • 75% PVE, 25% PVP
  • 50% PVE, 50% PVP
  • 25% PVE, 75% PVP
  • 0% PVE, 100% PVP
Instead the OP words the poll terribly.  I don't "despise" PVP just because MMORPG PVP sucks by design.  I play MMORPGs for PVE and PVP games for PVP.

This can never be same in different times, one time I want to pve 100% other times just 10% or non, and anything in between.

That depands on my mood.

PVP and PVE should be on separate servers, or as an option by flagging for pvp.

  bugmeno

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/15/12
Posts: 87

 
OP  4/18/13 2:35:41 PM#63
Cool, PvAll won. i knew it

  DamonVile

Elite Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4821

4/18/13 2:44:52 PM#64

I don't hate pvp I just hate it in pve focused mmos.  I love games like world of tanks ( I have 12k battles + 4k from beta :P )  or LoL or even shooters when I'm in the mood. MMO pvp is just lame grinds and 95% of the time it's gear vrs gear not player vrs player.

I'm always happy to see an mmo have no pvp. It means no lame nerfs because devs can't make a skill work in both pvp and pve. If an mmo does have pvp I ignore it.

There's a saying about evolution and why we have two eyes and two ears but only one mouth. Clearly it didn't see the internet coming or it never would have given us ten fingers to type with.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10650

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

4/18/13 2:58:00 PM#65


Originally posted by Cuathon

Originally posted by lizardbones I think it's entirely possible that there are people who have no interest at all in PvP or PvE in MMOs, but I feel pretty certain that there are far fewer of those people than people who want both. I'm also going to guess that there are fewer pure PvP people than PvE people on these forums and in the world, but that's just a gut feeling. I don't really have much to back it up.
Given all the free MMOs out there, why not just play a pure pve and a pure pvp if you want both? Having a totally PvE focused game is better for PvE than one that is constantly getting "balanced for PvP" and has half its budget wasted on stuff that doesn't add to PvE and the same for a pure PvP MMO. Shoving it all in one game is just as dumb as putting a MOBA, an SPRPG, and a Diablo clone all in one game.



Can't speak for anyone else, but my experience with free games is that most of them are cr@p.

There's no reason a developer can't have a vision for a game, where the PvE and PvP elements support that central vision. I'm not sure that's what most developers do, but there's no reason it can't be done. I think a big problem is that "balance" word there.

Not just balancing things for PvE or PvP, but trying to balance the PvP elements of the game with the PvE elements of the game so that one or the other isn't too important. I think TSW has the right idea. Focus on what you're good at (PvE), and work on the other (PvP), but don't let it run the game. If that means a game is 95% PvE and 5% PvP, then so be it. It's better to make a better game than to make a game with a perfect 50/50 split between those two types of game play. Trying to get that 50/50 split is how game mechanics just get thrown into a game seemingly at random.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  eyelolled

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/13/10
Posts: 3088

I am more than some of my parts

4/18/13 3:03:28 PM#66
should have had an option for I play both but I don't like them mixed.

All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/18/13 3:13:25 PM#67
Lizard
What 50/50 games?

Gw2, daoc, gw1 if you count it as a mmo, err.... I'm struggling to think of anymore
  Rednecksith

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/12/09
Posts: 1272

Bite my fiery metal ass!

4/18/13 3:20:10 PM#68

I'm just tired of balance decisions in my PvE MMO being made to placate the super-whiny PvP crowd. Hell, several classes in WoW were completely screwed over bigtime because of those godawful arenas. Agents / smugglers in SWTOR were nerfed into uselessness because of PvPers whining.

I wish developers would, in games which involve both PvE and PvP, learn to divide class skills / abilities into PvP and PvE versions. That way one could be adjusted without completely screwing over the other. Of course this requires both extra work and foresight on their part, which isn't likely to happen any time soon.

  Raithe-Nor

Novice Member

Joined: 11/08/07
Posts: 322

4/18/13 3:22:07 PM#69
Originally posted by Cuathon

Given all the free MMOs out there, why not just play a pure pve and a pure pvp if you want both? Having a totally PvE focused game is better for PvE than one that is constantly getting "balanced for PvP" and has half its budget wasted on stuff that doesn't add to PvE and the same for a pure PvP MMO. Shoving it all in one game is just as dumb as putting a MOBA, an SPRPG, and a Diablo clone all in one game.

Because there is no PvP-less games.  Just because a game has PvE (player vs. environment) gameplay, does not mean the players can't use the player vs. environment game for player vs. player comparisons.  The myth is that anyone plays a game that is entirely computerized simulation.  Artificial intelligence has not gotten to that point in general, and in the case of certain games like Chess, artificial intelligence can beat the pants off the vast majority of humans - so there is really no competition or game there, either.

I'd wager that the poll was misinterpreted by most responders.  The PvE-er responders actually wanted to respond that they wanted PvE without interplayer simulated combat.  PvP simply means interplayer competition, and I guarantee that almost all of that 44% actually compares themselves to other players when they PvE.

As for PvP bringing the worst types into a  gaming community, that is utterly false.  The worst types are the people that can't handle getting beat by another player - and they are precisely the bulk of those who responded PvE-only.  There is simply no comparison - the worst playerbases are "PvE-only."  PvP playerbases are just typical humans.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

4/18/13 3:53:04 PM#70
Originally posted by znaiika
In your MMORPGs, how much time do you want to spend in each activity?
  • 100% PVE, 0% PVP
  • 75% PVE, 25% PVP
  • 50% PVE, 50% PVP
  • 25% PVE, 75% PVP
  • 0% PVE, 100% PVP

This can never be same in different times, one time I want to pve 100% other times just 10% or non, and anything in between.

That depands on my mood.

PVP and PVE should be on separate servers, or as an option by flagging for pvp.

If some days you were 100% PVP, and some days you were 100% PVE, obviously you'd vote "50/50" (assuming a balanced mix of days)

It's not rocket surgery.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/18/13 4:22:04 PM#71
Red that's because wow and swtor are 90% pve games with pvp ghettoed off into mini games.

The balance myth shines stronger when pure in some 5 vs 5 match that's pretending real hard its like quake.
  Jemcrystal

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/02/08
Posts: 1349

Let em put a slave ring thru u're nose u're prob not going to like where they're taking you. Think.

4/18/13 4:53:53 PM#72
The PvP'ers burned their bridges with me when every mmo I ever played saw my rogue/ranger nerfed.

http://s25.postimg.org/e4cys86xb/gw004.jpg

  Nhoj1983

Novice Member

Joined: 9/12/08
Posts: 183

4/18/13 11:01:45 PM#73
Originally posted by Margulis

Funny how the pure pvp gamers are such a small percent, yet they have way more mmo's released that are focused strictly on their play style.  Pvp only mmo's abound, but how many quality pve only games do you get?  seems every big Pve title has to cater somewhat to the pvp crowd.

 

Goes to show you how loud that small percent is doesnt it? 

 Wow... let's see... can I think of one pvp only mmo?  Maybe the upcoming camelot unchained(not yet released).... or DAOC(2002).. that's pretty much it.  Warhammer(2008) kind of.... L2(2003), Darkfall(2009?), Aion(2009)...  It was made with pvp in mind primarily so I'll group it in here.  Okay let's talk about primarily pve games... LOTRO, WOW, EQ2, EQ, RIFT, FFXI, FFXIV, DC Universe, Champions online, STO, TSO... and I know I'm missing sooo many games.  People focused on PVE have a smorgasborg to chose from.  PVE is the main way people play mmos... that said there's a large minority who like pvp and any game that choses to not put pvp at all into the game is missing out on cheap reusable content that and there are plenty of us that won't play a game that doesn't have ANY pvp.  Beggars can't be chosers but we are the ones that have the small end of the stick here.  Yes I like both pve and pvp but this sort of comment gets my dander up.   If you only like pve that's fine but to complain that pvpers have so many choices of pvp centered mmos (sarcasm anyone?) is way off and almost offensively so.

  Tokken

Elite Member

Joined: 3/06/04
Posts: 901

"I'm your Huckleberry!"

4/18/13 11:06:27 PM#74

I am happy with PvE only worlds.

UO, EQ, DAoC, SWG, WOW, EQ2, CoH, CoX, VG, Aion, STO, CO, DCUO, LOTRO, Tera, SWTOR, GW2, DP, NW, TSW, MH, DDO, Rift, WS, ESO, Trove, LM

  ZombieKen

Novice Member

Joined: 3/30/10
Posts: 4410

Zombie - Dead but still moving.

4/18/13 11:08:18 PM#75

Interesting poll.  Not really surprised by the results.

 

MSOTSG with PPE : Massively Single-player Online Task-driven Storyline Game with Purchasable Performance Enhancements *grin*

  Theocritus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/15/08
Posts: 3613

4/19/13 12:02:10 AM#76
I only do PVE...ITs not that I dislike PVP, its that I never found a system where the fights were fair.....Either you were competing against players way higher in level, players that had spent money to gain advantages from the cash shop, players who used 3rd party programs to cheat or gain advantage, or players who played 24/7 to get the absolute best stuff in the game........
  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

4/19/13 12:34:25 AM#77

I voted, but I'm skeptical that we are an unbiased sample. 

My fuzzy-feeling experience is that online forums tend to skew pro-PvP because people who dislike adversarial interactions are likely to eventually tire of arguements.

 

  WW4BW

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/03/06
Posts: 491

4/19/13 12:35:09 AM#78
Originally posted by Tokken

I am happy with PvE only worlds.

I enjoy both, Though I would have like a 4th option for the poll.. Because I dont necessarily need both in the same game. Especially, if the game just has PvP because thats what all the other games have.

And there are various way of integrating both systems in a game.

Notably there are games where PvE'ers are derogatorily referred to as carebears, but where they are the workhorses of the economy and also are the long suffering prey of 1337 skillz PvP'ers that dont even care they arent gaining anything, but are happy with ruining someone elses day.

These games also have players that PvP by PvE'ing with force...

 

Other games are more forgiving and have an iron curtain that completly, or almost,  divide the PvP part from the PvE part.

Might have been redundant to point that out. But I wanted to say that there should be enough players for all sorts of variations of the mix or pure PvP or PvE..  Well maybe not pure PvP going by the poll at this time.

  ariasaitcho

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/20/12
Posts: 112

4/19/13 1:20:25 AM#79
it's really not that i hate pvp, it's that i hate the way it is usually implemented. i play a lot of f2p games and those almost always end up p2w, which i despise. i don't mind that players who support the game get an advantage, i do mind when the advantage is so overwhelming that there is no point for someone who spends a little/nothing to even try.

  daltanious

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/19/08
Posts: 1786

4/19/13 4:08:02 AM#80
I expected this results. "True" pvp-ers are rarity. Usually no need to open new sole pvp servers and virtually and game has ratio i.e. 1/10 or 1/100 in favor for pve servers. But ... that small number of pvp-ers have been able so far do destroy many good games because they are ultra vocal to point of madness and silly compaines listen to them instead of focusing on 97% of game player base.
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