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General Discussion Forum » The Pub at MMORPG.COM » The myth of "The PvErs" vs. "The PvPers"?

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101 posts found
  Shaigh

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/07/13
Posts: 356

4/18/13 12:06:10 PM#41
If you ever did a Bartle test you would see a trait called the killer. I do have friends that used to play mmo but since they mostly just wanted PvP they play games like DayZ or LoL now.
  Tanemund

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/29/09
Posts: 83

4/18/13 12:13:55 PM#42
Originally posted by Rusque

I play both, but I prefer MMO's that are not strictly PvP to focus on PvE with PvP as a bonus.

I think the biggest myth in MMO's is open world pvp. There's really two ways it goes:

1. Little genuine pvp occurs, mostly ganking or getting ganked - typically around valuable areas (materials, instances). The common response is to go get your buddies and come back for a fight, but that's the think isn't it? No one actually wants to fight. They want to win. There's a difference. So if their group is not capable of beating your group, they just run off.  Once in a while you experience decent pvp, but the rest of the time is pretty boring.

2. Certain areas become "pvp" hotspots. It's funny that people think that instanced pvp came about because developers are mean and want to ruin your fun! No, people naturally gravitated towards certain main pvp areas. You knew that when you logged on there would most likely be a mass of people punching each other in that area. The only thing instancing did was create even numbered and equal leveled sides (which gankers hate) and take the lag out of that particular region.

QFT

 

The natural upshot of point 1 is the "zerg" accusation.  As soon as someone brings a friend the "zerg" word starts flying and both sides start accusing the other side of "not playing the game properly".  "Zerging" i.e. overwhelming an enemy with sheer numbers, is a perfectly valid military tactic that is still employed to this day.  The only difference is when someone gets zerged in real life they're not around to bitch about it afterwards.  The Coalition zerged the living puke out of the Iraqis in both Gulf Wars.  Both operations were textbook applications of massive force at places where the enemy was weakest.  The rest is just words and gas.  However gods forbid you do this in some random video game.  SHAME!  SHAME UPON THEE FOR GETTING HELP!  Instead you should just take  your beating and come back for another one, just like an extra in a Bruce Lee movie.

 

As to point 2, developers can do whatever they want, but in the end they can't control tacit agreements between "enemies". 

 

For example in DAoC everyone fought in Emain Macha.  There were four zones in each of the three frontiers, but everyone fought in Emain.  Why?  The terrain was generally flat with few obstructions (trees, hills, structures, mobs).  It was like fighting on a golf course.  No one fought in Albion where there were agro mobs everywhere and buildings, trees and elevation changes to mess you up.  And Midgard?  Who wanted to go blind staring at all that white on your screen straining your eyes to differentiate between roaming mobs and enemies?  Nope.  Buy a portal medal and get thyself to the milegate!  You could pretty much run around naked in the other frontier zones for hours and not die to enemy attack unless you went flat stupid and ran up to their border fort or chanced upon an XP group.

 

Another example this time in one of the instances where fighting was encouraged.  WoW Alterac Valley - Between the AFCavers and the unspoken agreement of the enemies to almost complete bypass one another and go kill the enemy NPCs the only PvP that went on in that battleground was when someone logged in late and wasn't in the zerg.  Then they got jumped and ganked by 10 enemies as they ran to catch up to their pack of friendlies.  People were actually yelled at by their own allies for fighting the enemy because it was slowing down the rate at which everyone, including the enemies, was collecting medals to buy epic armor.

 

In the end if a developer wants PvP in their game they almost have to lower the consequences of death to nothing, otherwise only the strongest will PvP and the rest will opt out.  FFA PvP inevitably leads to survival of the fittest as most people don't want to spend their precious gaming time doing corpse runs and finding their stuff gone when they get back to their corpse and then get ganked again.

 

And no one really wants "No Rules" either.  Fansy the Famous Bard proved that a long time ago.  In the end, people want to choose when they PvP, and just like in real life, for 99.999999999% of the people that means when they can win.

Many a small thing has been made large by the right kind of advertising.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/18/13 12:14:50 PM#43
Rawfox:

Give planetside 2 a try.
But to get the most out of the game, the first thing you should do is click the social button to see if any organised guilds have an open platoon up. It's a game where you really need to be in a group to get the mist out of it.
  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/18/13 12:16:26 PM#44
Margulis

Pure pvp mmos abound? Really?

Planetside, planetside 2, err world of tanks if you count it as a mmo, struggling to think of any more.
  GreenHell

Novice Member

Joined: 11/27/05
Posts: 1342

4/18/13 12:22:21 PM#45
Originally posted by ShakyMo
The "balance problem" seems to exist more in games like wow.

E.g. games that were designed as 100% pve games then they hammer and duct taped some token pvp on later. The other cause of the problem is mmos chasing the pink elephant of Esports, which is an impossible dream in a mmo where you have classes gear etc..

For pvp and pve to coexist without homogonised boring classes.
1 design pvp into your game from the start
2 don't balance for 1 vs 1, balance for group play, mmos are not and never will be esports

I agree with this but instead of balancing PvP through PVE specs why not just have a PVP spec that HAS to be used in order to PVP? This way you leave the PVE specs alone. In WOW most of the class balancing and nerfing is about balancing PvP. It's stupid to nerf PVE in order to make PVP people happy. Different specs and no one would be bothered. PVP can easily be balanced with out killing a PVE spec.

 

  rictor51

Novice Member

Joined: 11/19/04
Posts: 24

4/18/13 12:44:41 PM#46

Open PvP while fun for some is a constant annoyance at best for most. Like many others time is an issue for me. I know gamers and especially "hardcore" gamers have the reputation for not having lives but I have certainly have one. When I go to play a game I make a few a friends and like to have fun. Its really not fun to get jumped while you are out just doing whatever. Sure its a military tactic to bring a group of friends to outnumber a foe but its more or less just bullying and its not so much a tactic when its in a game. It's more of an overkill. Its like hunting a unsuspecting deer with a force of 50+ armed soldiers, an armored division and air support. If a person enjoys the concept of being outnumbered on a constant basis, well, then more power to them. There is never a time when sides are equal, where both sides have a fair chance, where open PvP is fun and interesting. (i shouldnt say never.. more like 99 times out of a hundred it isnt fair or fun). This is why battlegrounds and instanced PvP was created. If you are in the mood for a fight or decent odds in winning you can do that. I love Pvp when this is the case. When I am in the mood for just sitting back and watching a movie while mindlessly grinding or chatting with friends I want to be able to do that. Most games have it right where they are PvP servers and PvE servers with a possibility of going into a battleground.

Personally, I dont like to be forced into PvP. I have done many many hours of it but it was my choice. I have played on PvP servers before and dont care for them due to the fact i could be fighting a close PvE or PvP fight and someone shows up to just finish me off. Wasting my already little time I have to play.

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

4/18/13 12:53:19 PM#47
Originally posted by lizardbones

I think it's entirely possible that there are people who have no interest at all in PvP or PvE in MMOs, but I feel pretty certain that there are far fewer of those people than people who want both.

I'm also going to guess that there are fewer pure PvP people than PvE people on these forums and in the world, but that's just a gut feeling. I don't really have much to back it up.

Given all the free MMOs out there, why not just play a pure pve and a pure pvp if you want both? Having a totally PvE focused game is better for PvE than one that is constantly getting "balanced for PvP" and has half its budget wasted on stuff that doesn't add to PvE and the same for a pure PvP MMO. Shoving it all in one game is just as dumb as putting a MOBA, an SPRPG, and a Diablo clone all in one game.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/18/13 12:54:53 PM#48
Green its stupid to 1 vs 1 balance mmo pvp. It's a lie sold to people by the likes of arenanet and blizzard.

Better to have pvp that embraces what a mmo is, like eve or daoc, rather than trying to pretend mmos are like lol, Tf2 or cod.

The balance is a lie.
  rictor51

Novice Member

Joined: 11/19/04
Posts: 24

4/18/13 12:56:31 PM#49

The natural upshot of point 1 is the "zerg" accusation.  As soon as someone brings a friend the "zerg" word starts flying and both sides start accusing the other side of "not playing the game properly".  "Zerging" i.e. overwhelming an enemy with sheer numbers, is a perfectly valid military tactic that is still employed to this day.  The only difference is when someone gets zerged in real life they're not around to bitch about it afterwards.  The Coalition zerged the living puke out of the Iraqis in both Gulf Wars.  Both operations were textbook applications of massive force at places where the enemy was weakest.  The rest is just words and gas.  However gods forbid you do this in some random video game.  SHAME!  SHAME UPON THEE FOR GETTING HELP!  Instead you should just take  your beating and come back for another one, just like an extra in a Bruce Lee movie.

While you make a valid point. This isnt Warfare. Where in the example you put up there, armies and generals have the means to correct or prevent this. When people in game arent playing it for the warfare aspects nor the competition on having the most friends to escort them around to make sure they arent ganked by a group. In most cases its like 5 pro basketball players playing against one 5-year old over who gets to play on the basketball court.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

4/18/13 1:03:33 PM#50

It's not a myth that PVE-only players are more common.

Although it'd be nice to have a non-biased poll to correctly measure things:

In your MMORPGs, how much time do you want to spend in each activity?

  • 100% PVE, 0% PVP
  • 75% PVE, 25% PVP
  • 50% PVE, 50% PVP
  • 25% PVE, 75% PVP
  • 0% PVE, 100% PVP
Instead the OP words the poll terribly.  I don't "despise" PVP just because MMORPG PVP sucks by design.  I play MMORPGs for PVE and PVP games for PVP.
  Cephus404

Novice Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3697

4/18/13 1:40:14 PM#51
Originally posted by fayknaym
I always like to play all the aspects of a game. I wonder if people who hate pvp also hate playing board games like monopoly or chess against other people, since they technically are pvp.

But they don't typically bring out the douchebags.  I've seen it happen in MMOs all the time.  If you lose the encounter, you can be sure that the one who won is going to be a douchebag to you, calling you a loser, bragging to his friends, etc.  If you win, you can be sure that the one who lost is going to call you a cheater, try to get their friends to gank you, etc.  These are not things that you have to worry about with NPCs because they don't have egos.  They don't get upset.  They don't badmouth you.  They don't seek revenge.  They don't follow you around for hours ganking you over and over.

PvP brings out the inner dick in people.  No thanks.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
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Hope: None

  Trudge34

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/08/12
Posts: 389

4/18/13 1:40:47 PM#52
Originally posted by Axehilt

I don't "despise" PVP just because MMORPG PVP sucks by design.  I play MMORPGs for PVE and PVP games for PVP.

 

Basically this for me. I spent most of my time doing PvE content and maybe 2-3% PvPing. Mostly because I tend to play tank classes who tend to fair terribly in PvP in favor of ranged classes. Which is fine with me. I'd rather have classes that are full of flavor and aren't balanced for PvP than to have everyone able to do a bit of everything for the sake of "balance" which ShakyMo pointed out truthfully is a lie.

The moments I've PvP'd have rarely been memorable as well. Usually just being destroyed by a group of people that come along, either during a 1 on 1 to clean up or just adventuring and being destroyed.

The one, most fun and memorable instance of it was a fight I had along side a few of my guildies with a member of a rival guild at the time. Yes, guilds that participate in mostly PvE can have rivals, shocking to some I'm sure. It was a single, uber geared Monk in EQ that had an absolute shit ton of clickable items to help him out. I specifically remember a blind...damn that was annoying. Anyways, he battled it out with probably 3 or 4 of us and really took it to us. We brought in a ringer cleric that sat out of the arena so she couldn't be touched and basically kept us at a stand still for an hour and a half (him bringing in his box cleric not long after we brought ours.) Finally, after about an hour and a half we took him down. Us 1, him probably about 15 kills but it felt pretty good. After that, me and him were good with each other, grouped up a few times actually to exp and joined his guild a few months later to tank as they rebuilt a bit. Truking, if you're out there, dammit you were a tough SOB to take down!

Played: EQ1 (10 Years), Guild Wars, Rift, TERA
Tried: EQ2, Vanguard, Lord of the Rings Online, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Runes of Magic and countless others...
Currently Playing: GW2

Nytlok Sylas
80 Sylvari Ranger

  Po_gg

Elite Member

Joined: 5/12/10
Posts: 2224

4/18/13 1:58:37 PM#53
Originally posted by Axehilt

I play MMORPGs for PVE and PVP games for PVP.

+1. Simple as that.

 

  JasonJ

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 414

4/18/13 2:00:19 PM#54
Originally posted by Margulis

Funny how the pure pvp gamers are such a small percent, yet they have way more mmo's released that are focused strictly on their play style.  Pvp only mmo's abound, but how many quality pve only games do you get?  seems every big Pve title has to cater somewhat to the pvp crowd.

 

Goes to show you how loud that small percent is doesnt it? 

You do realize that EVERY single MMO, PvE or PvP has crafting in it? I guess crafting is the single biggest crowd in the genre!

Logic is a funny thing when applied equally.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/18/13 2:13:41 PM#55
I play mmos for pvp and single player rpgs for pve :D

Pve is just better in single players games. Name a recent mmo with better pve than skyrim or Witcher 2.
  waynejr2

Elite Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3881

RIP City of Heroes!

4/18/13 2:27:14 PM#56
Originally posted by ShakyMo
It's not a myth.

One need only look at the numerous "remove all pvp" threads you see during every games beta.

 Now now, common sense isn't allowed around here.  The same goes for facts.

IMO, there are both and combinations of them.

  emperorwings

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/25/06
Posts: 1422

4/18/13 2:31:32 PM#57
Both if done right. I like how Conquor Online pvp system works for example you can pve and pvp with no problem although it's a f2p asian grinder p2w game that I wouldn't even touch.

This isn't a signature, you just think it is.

  Blecod

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/28/10
Posts: 14

4/18/13 2:35:27 PM#58
I have to say it's not that i dispise pvp it's just that i don't care about it.
  mmoguy43

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/31/09
Posts: 2354

4/18/13 3:01:20 PM#59

Really? who doesn't atleast play a little of all aspects of a game whether it is the favorite thing to do or not?

Let's build the ultimate MMO 1 feature at a time
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/398555/page/1

"blocked nariusseldon since forever"

  Shaigh

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/07/13
Posts: 356

4/18/13 3:08:30 PM#60
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by fayknaym
I always like to play all the aspects of a game. I wonder if people who hate pvp also hate playing board games like monopoly or chess against other people, since they technically are pvp.

But they don't typically bring out the douchebags.  I've seen it happen in MMOs all the time.  If you lose the encounter, you can be sure that the one who won is going to be a douchebag to you, calling you a loser, bragging to his friends, etc.  If you win, you can be sure that the one who lost is going to call you a cheater, try to get their friends to gank you, etc.  These are not things that you have to worry about with NPCs because they don't have egos.  They don't get upset.  They don't badmouth you.  They don't seek revenge.  They don't follow you around for hours ganking you over and over.

PvP brings out the inner dick in people.  No thanks.

Dungeon/raid finder brings out the inner dick in people as well, you have people kicking others at random, leaving the group when they got their item, badmouthing people if they die, scream at the healer if they die regardless if its their own fault or not.

 

You don't need to PvP to be an asshole.

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