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General Discussion Forum » The Pub at MMORPG.COM » The myth of "The PvErs" vs. "The PvPers"?

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101 posts found
  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/18/13 9:05:47 AM#21
Oh and it works the other way too.

I remember warriors getting heavily nerfed in rift pvp and being unable to play a pvp tank type role (with the only viable spec being single Target ranged dps). The reason why, mage players whined like hell on the forums about warriors ability to grind packs if mobs in solo pve.
  udon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/23/07
Posts: 1459

4/18/13 9:10:38 AM#22
Originally posted by ShakyMo
The "balance problem" seems to exist more in games like wow.

E.g. games that were designed as 100% pve games then they hammer and duct taped some token pvp on later. The other cause of the problem is mmos chasing the pink elephant of Esports, which is an impossible dream in a mmo where you have classes gear etc..

For pvp and pve to coexist without homogonised boring classes.
1 design pvp into your game from the start
2 don't balance for 1 vs 1, balance for group play, mmos are not and never will be esports

That's easier said than done.  Name one game that has even come close to doing it?  As soon as a game adds PVP anything resembabling faction uniquness goes away because of faction balance and you end up with opposite classes like SWTOR which are mirror images of each other with the same abilities only different names.  Anything resembabling crowd crontrol will get nerfed into the ground which in turn means that hard PVE content is dumbed down to make up for the lack of player systems that make interesting battles.

LOTR's orginally made you play a different game for PVP so it didn't affect class balance at all.  EQ2 has different rule sets for PVP than PVE combat so it has been affected less but any game that tries to use a merged PVP/PVE rule set is going to have nothing more than a bastardized bland class and ability system if not at launch within 6 months after players get their hands on it.

There is a reason why games like vanilla WoW and EQ2 where the last of the hard MMO's.  They where also the last ones that released with little to no concern for PVP.  The opposite holds true as well btw.  Eve works because PVE gets backs stage.  If they ever decided to make PVE a more significant part of that game it would hurt PVP.  Face it the two systems are really not compatable, one or the other (or both) will suffer if they try to exist in equal measure.

  Slampig

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/29/03
Posts: 2372

Whatever you do, do NOT speak ill of Asheron's Call 2...

4/18/13 9:16:57 AM#23

I voted for only PvE although in my case it isn't totally true. I love PvP when it is enjoyable of course. Back on the original Rallos Zek server I had a blast. In DAoC I had a blast.

Since then, not so much. And the main reason is the players. Although my main game at the moment is WoW I rarely play any PvP because I think their PvP stinks. In the other games I play it is the players. I get worn out having to deal with all the "hardcore" "wolves" that just fill the screen with profanity and boasts of how good they are when in reality the person and his five friends are merely gankers.

You want to brag about how hardcore skilled you are then actually show it. Gank squads do not require skill. Even the word skill gets under my skin. Hit them buttons people, HIT THEM BUTTONS!

Anyway, if there was a game that had enjoyable PvP mixed with PvE and a way to curtail all the "hardcore" donkies that seem to destroy their own games, well then, I would be all over  it.

That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!

  Dr_Shivinski

Elite Member

Joined: 10/02/12
Posts: 126

4/18/13 10:00:03 AM#24

It's almost as though none of you have even heard of EVE. Now I wouldn't go so far as to say that the system is perfectly balanced, but it works really damned well. PVP can happen anywhere, in any system no matter the security level. But if someone ganks you high security space (0.5-1.0) then the NPC police known as CONCORD will blast their asses to the stone ages, and they get 15 minutes of "Undock, I dare you) from said space police. So really HiSec is relatively safe for all your PVE needs, mining, missions, incursions and what not.

Low Security space (0.1-0.4) is a little more wild. Gone are the space police, but station and gate guns are vigilant, looking for non-legitimate aggression near them, but anywhere else in these systems and its fair game to hunt, fight, and our crowd favorite gank.

Null Security (0.0) It's just a fuckin free for all.

Wormhole (-1.0) See Null Security but with claustrophobia added on the side. (or maybe thats just me) 

 

So this system of Security Ratings has worked out quite well, it doesn't 100% deter people from ganking in high security space, but there are consequences, something that almost all other MMOs do not have.

Here Siggy Siggy!

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/18/13 10:03:37 AM#25
Udon:
Daoc
Eve
Perpetuum
Both gw
Ac
  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/18/13 10:05:54 AM#26
Although eve and perpetuum are mostly pvp games, and ac is a mostly pve game.

I guess daoc and gw2 are the only 2 big mmos that got a 50/50 pve/pvp balance right.
  User Deleted
4/18/13 10:14:13 AM#27

What I find fascinating is that they have no issue will killing say that Horde Ogre guarding the food, but if it's a Horde player they won't do the same.  I mean, you're Alliance, you are at war with the Horde... shouldn't you be killing all Horde and not just those in your way to your quest item?  It's like they want to be camouflaged in their own game... yes I am Alliance, but I'm not really here unless I have a quest objective to acquire... in that case, I can kill said NPCs without threat of being attacked by other members of the faction who also happen to be Horde in the area.  It's selective killing.

 

"You are the one..."

"I am for you, James T. Kirk"

 

There can be no immersion in a game where you can turn off danger merely by flipping a switch in your UI interface.  

  udon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/23/07
Posts: 1459

4/18/13 10:17:22 AM#28
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Udon:
Daoc
Eve
Perpetuum
Both gw
Ac

Never played DAOC so I'll let others speak to that.

PVE is lip service in Eve.  The whole point of PVE is to push you torwards lower and lower sec space to get you ready to live in PVP areas.  It's a PVP tutorial more than a seperate game element.  Unless you are counting low sec crafting and mining which is just as much PVP as combat IMO.

Perpetuum I have not played since launch but again PVE didn't really have much point other than to teach you how to get started for PVP since all the high end resources are on PVP controlled islands.

GW2's come closer than any other I can think of but even at that it's obvious that much of the reason they moved away from tradational classes was to make PVP/PVE balance easier.  And don't think for a second that PVP balance didn't play into some of the PVE design decisions of that game.

I have not played AC.

For a game to have a good balance of PVE to PVP both systems have to work well together and not interfer with the other either by changing the challange or difficulty of the other or to trivalize the loot that the other earns.  Strong PVE games make PVP a secondary activity and strong PVP games end up dumbing down PVE content in the name of "balance".

I know balance is a subjective term and people will disagree with what I am saying which is ok.

  znaiika

Novice Member

Joined: 1/31/12
Posts: 202

4/18/13 10:22:45 AM#29

I vote both, don't get me wrong but I like pvp flaging system, if you want open world pvp just flag your-self, if you don't want pvp just stay unflaged and enjoy pve in open world.

Say no to any types of  forced pvp.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/18/13 10:25:22 AM#30
I kinda disagree the worst games for Homogonised jack of all trades classes are heavy pve games like wow and swtor.

It comes from making your pvp all small scale encounters and entertaining the ludicrous idea that mmo pvp can be a balanced Esports in the vein of quake 3.

Take pvp out of scenarios and put it in a daoc style pvp areas of the world / pve areas if the world or put in a eve style varied security level systems and balance doesn't matter too much. It's teamwork, communication and political nounce that count.
  JasonJ

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 414

4/18/13 10:25:57 AM#31

So, in order to find out if archtypes exist, you created a poll with ONLY those archtypes?!?

You should have included, PvE with SOME PvP, PvP with SOME PvE, PvE with optional PvP anywhere via flagging with/without it being game driven, PvE with optional PvP in specified zones with/without a game focus, PvE with PvP only in instances with/without the games focus.

As is, people can only choose to be one of your archtypes.

I personally fall into the "PvE with optional PvP anywhere via flagging without it being game driven" catagory. I dont need stinking developers holding my hand and directing me to PvP, I PvP for fun, not for moronic titles, ranks, gear, or buff rewards for controlling an area. No PvP carrots on a stick for me.

  Classicstar

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/02/04
Posts: 2490

4/18/13 10:27:53 AM#32

I want PVE/PVP mmo only if its an OPEN FREE FOR ALL pvp world other wise im not interested.

AC1-AC2 both Darktide server. Lineage2-Darkfall 1. Many ive tried in between. Stopped playing mmorpgs for now fed up with... Played many solo games mainly rpg's.
Fav series Elder scrolls.

  ChipSet91

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/08/07
Posts: 34

4/18/13 10:31:53 AM#33
I never really enjoy the PVP elements  in MMOs, except in Eve-Online . So I chose PVE only.
  User Deleted
4/18/13 10:35:17 AM#34
I always like to play all the aspects of a game. I wonder if people who hate pvp also hate playing board games like monopoly or chess against other people, since they technically are pvp.
  Laeesh

Novice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 89

4/18/13 10:37:22 AM#35
Originally posted by fayknaym
I always like to play all the aspects of a game. I wonder if people who hate pvp also hate playing board games like monopoly or chess against other people, since they technically are pvp.

 

nahhhhhh offtopic but i have to yell at you! =D I hate board games with dices, because dices mean -> luck (jeah everyone got the same chance) but it´s always luck. PvP in a PvP focused game is at least not ONLY luck! =)

  thecapitaine

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/06/11
Posts: 317

4/18/13 10:37:59 AM#36
I like both aspects, PvE and PvP.  The only game I've played with FFA PvP was Eve and that was fun but a tad stressful, even in high-sec.  There are definitely people who like one and hate the other but I find switching does help break up the routine of doing the same thing over and over again in MMOs.
  ChipSet91

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/08/07
Posts: 34

4/18/13 10:47:20 AM#37
Originally posted by fayknaym
I always like to play all the aspects of a game. I wonder if people who hate pvp also hate playing board games like monopoly or chess against other people, since they technically are pvp.

I like playing chess and monopoly. Well;  unless the rules changed and I can get ganked by 10 opponents while playing those games.....

  User Deleted
4/18/13 10:57:57 AM#38
Originally posted by ChipSet91
Originally posted by fayknaym
I always like to play all the aspects of a game. I wonder if people who hate pvp also hate playing board games like monopoly or chess against other people, since they technically are pvp.

I like playing chess and monopoly. Well;  unless the rules changed and I can get ganked by 10 opponents while playing those games.....

It was just a thought I had. I guess it's not really right to compare them. MMOs are on a much larger scale, much more fast paced and lack the personal human interactions you can get by playing board games. 

  rawfox

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/03/09
Posts: 567

4/18/13 11:02:45 AM#39

I like the gamestyle where you have to comquer or defend something.

 

While the most common games have these in their Battlefield maps - own instances - there was ans is a couple games out, that deliver this kind of gaming.

In Tabula Rasa you had to get these outposts, that was fun because NPCs and players were fighting side by side, on both sides.

Face of Mankind brought this to  a whole new level, by introducing crime and police and ofcause some kind of factionwide gathering of colonies. Best PvP experience i had for now.

FireFall promises similar mechanics, lets see, its still under heavy development.

Anarchy Online has also this funny Towerwars for Land Control Areas, but the level of success depends heavy on your gear.

 

So, yeah, PvP should be the first step to some real roleplaying ^^

  Margulis

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/14/08
Posts: 1643

4/18/13 11:05:37 AM#40

Funny how the pure pvp gamers are such a small percent, yet they have way more mmo's released that are focused strictly on their play style.  Pvp only mmo's abound, but how many quality pve only games do you get?  seems every big Pve title has to cater somewhat to the pvp crowd.

 

Goes to show you how loud that small percent is doesnt it? 

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