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General Discussion Forum » The Pub at MMORPG.COM » “Innovation” is destroying community

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96 posts found
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20682

3/30/13 11:58:19 AM#81
Originally posted by Waterlily
 

Every sporting event is forced grouping, every movie theather is forced grouping, every train is forced grouping, every bus is forced grouping, every bar is forced grouping, every subway is forced grouping, every airplane is forced grouping, every concert is forced grouping, every circus is forced grouping, every school is forced grouping, every restaurant is forced grouping, every workplace is forced grouping.

You know what they all have in common? It creates community. We're not the social inept here.

 

That is exactly why games should not be .. why shackled by the same thing that shackled you in real life? It is abotu escapism.

And what kind of force grouping is movie theater? Do you talk to the stranger next to you? It is a "worse community" than a LFD. Ditto for trains, bus, subway. Do you ride a train to social? I don't. Do you go to a movie theater to social? I do not.

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20682

3/30/13 12:01:20 PM#82
Originally posted by ClaudeSuamOram

Who is more selfish here.

The one who has many games that already cater to his tastes always attempting to out yell those asking for 1, just 1 the way they would like to see it in any and every post that pertains to an old school feel?

Or the one asking for 1 game in 1000 to release with their preferences and to be different from the slew of themepark hamster wheel games already in existence?


 

The same of course. None of these two people care about the preference of the other person.

The only difference is that the second guy can play teh victim better because he is niche and few devs care about him. More bitter != less selfish.

  ClaudeSuamOram

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 134

3/31/13 1:37:05 AM#83
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by ClaudeSuamOram

Who is more selfish here.

The one who has many games that already cater to his tastes always attempting to out yell those asking for 1, just 1 the way they would like to see it in any and every post that pertains to an old school feel?

Or the one asking for 1 game in 1000 to release with their preferences and to be different from the slew of themepark hamster wheel games already in existence?


 

The same of course. None of these two people care about the preference of the other person.

The only difference is that the second guy can play teh victim better because he is niche and few devs care about him. More bitter != less selfish.

Again...wrong.

I may enjoy the old school, but unlike you....I completely agree there has to be options for both soloing and grouping, as well as there should be options for classic world travel (Run/walk or mount) and fast travel (teleports). Just because it's there doesn't mean you have to use it...just as because it is there you have to punish yourself in not using it. It CAN be done to have both and appease both crowds if the game is good enough and done right.

I don't hate new players are introduced to the MMORPG community either as you may seem to think I do. Without them, it would be at a stand still. But it's people such as yourself that  are strongly against anything that would include grouping or communication beyond your own goals a game should hold valuable...which you have made clear in many posts. And always pushing for more soloing, more instancing lobby style, and less and less needed interaction that drive me nuts. You care little for the genre beyond your own little world of instant fun.

I don't play  the victim...you just like to paint those like me that way to try and make your points seem more valid. Which usually are just reiterations of the same MMORPG extinction campain over and over. Only reason the dev's don't care about players like us is there are too many like you who are more than willing to throw money at the next game they can blow through the content for and move on to the next one they can whip up with the same content and mechanics with a shiney new wrapper as the only difference.

Why invest in players who will stick with one game for years at box price and monthly sub fees when they can make so much more off of the ADD masses who will pay for multiple box prices and gobs of cash in cash shops, pay for beta spots (Dumb), and for vanity items and in-game extras?

There was a time when these dev's/companies took pride in their product, modest profit and the communities forged within their games...and interacted with them even. But in the post-WoW era...dollar signs are the only thing they see with all the sheep willing to be herded to the slaughter.

 

And nope...this isn't bitterness. You may want to think it is, but it isn't. I am a very patient person and have waited several years now for this themepark fad to fade as it is. I play other games and do other things while waiting. But it IS irritation with people such as yourself who are so blind to what MMORPG's are (Excuse me...were) and irritated with what you want to make them that I don't have patience for. It's fine to have variety and have some in such ways...but please...stfu with trying to tell those of us wishing and hoping for something different from the same old linear themepark  race to "endgame" ( A term that does not belong in the MMORPG genre btw IMO) we can't hope one or why (In your "Expert opinion") it won't happen or can't happen. Play your games and stay out of the threads you don't agree with...it's pretty simple really.

  Magiknight

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/10/09
Posts: 762

3/31/13 1:43:50 AM#84
The OP is right. Everyone saying that community doesn't matter needs to find a new genre.
  Stromm

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/14/06
Posts: 250

3/31/13 1:57:52 AM#85
Originally posted by ClaudeSuamOram
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by ClaudeSuamOram

Who is more selfish here.

The one who has many games that already cater to his tastes always attempting to out yell those asking for 1, just 1 the way they would like to see it in any and every post that pertains to an old school feel?

Or the one asking for 1 game in 1000 to release with their preferences and to be different from the slew of themepark hamster wheel games already in existence?


 

The same of course. None of these two people care about the preference of the other person.

The only difference is that the second guy can play teh victim better because he is niche and few devs care about him. More bitter != less selfish.

Again...wrong.

I may enjoy the old school, but unlike you....I completely agree there has to be options for both soloing and grouping, as well as there should be options for classic world travel (Run/walk or mount) and fast travel (teleports). Just because it's there doesn't mean you have to use it...just as because it is there you have to punish yourself in not using it. It CAN be done to have both and appease both crowds if the game is good enough and done right.

I don't hate new players are introduced to the MMORPG community either as you may seem to think I do. Without them, it would be at a stand still. But it's people such as yourself that  are strongly against anything that would include grouping or communication beyond your own goals a game should hold valuable...which you have made clear in many posts. And always pushing for more soloing, more instancing lobby style, and less and less needed interaction that drive me nuts. You care little for the genre beyond your own little world of instant fun.

I don't play  the victim...you just like to paint those like me that way to try and make your points seem more valid. Which usually are just reiterations of the same MMORPG extinction campain over and over. Only reason the dev's don't care about players like us is there are too many like you who are more than willing to throw money at the next game they can blow through the content for and move on to the next one they can whip up with the same content and mechanics with a shiney new wrapper as the only difference.

Why invest in players who will stick with one game for years at box price and monthly sub fees when they can make so much more off of the ADD masses who will pay for multiple box prices and gobs of cash in cash shops, pay for beta spots (Dumb), and for vanity items and in-game extras?

There was a time when these dev's/companies took pride in their product, modest profit and the communities forged within their games...and interacted with them even. But in the post-WoW era...dollar signs are the only thing they see with all the sheep willing to be herded to the slaughter.

 

And nope...this isn't bitterness. You may want to think it is, but it isn't. But it IS irritation with people such as yourself who are so blind to what MMORPG's are (Excuse me...were) and irritated with what you want to make them. It's fine to have variety and have some in such ways...but please...stfu with trying to tell those of us wishing and hoping for something different from the same old themepark linear race to "endgame" ( A term that does not belong in the MMORPG genre btw IMO) we can't have one or why (In your "Expert opinion") why it won't happen or can't happen.

Well said. Agree 100%.

  Raunu

Novice Member

Joined: 3/18/04
Posts: 486

3/31/13 2:13:45 AM#86

You know, if you really think community is so important, help fix it. Talk to people, start of conversations in general and world chat. If you're the type that puts a big emphesis on community, I'm sure doing this will make the game much more fun for you. You can do your part to help build a better community by communicationg with people.

Don't complain about tools like an LFG tool that helps people find groups instead of having to shout in general chat.   Since that shouting about looking for groups is gone, replace it with conversations. Then, the LFG tool will be making the community better by taking out all those annoying shouts and allowing people to have conversations instead. You'll see the community can actually benefit from this kind of activity. The players themselves have just as much control over the community(maybe more) than the devs do. Take the power you're given and use it.

- - "What if the hokey pokey really is what it's all about?" - -

  xDrac

Novice Member

Joined: 11/28/10
Posts: 179

3/31/13 4:27:04 AM#87

I wholeheartedly agree with this thread and the OP.

So true.

Lineage 3 - www.lineage3-online.com
Web & Graphic Design - www.xdrac.com

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

3/31/13 5:00:57 AM#88
Originally posted by WellzyC

Innovation is a nice 50 cent word that mmo devs love to throw around

Minor correction: a word that players love to throw around.

If you mean marketing releases and such--those come from CE folk, not devs. Devs write code, not happy-feelgood marketing language.

You can tell it's a meaningless marketing "fluff" word by how much time we devote to arguing about it.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  User Deleted
3/31/13 6:41:27 AM#89
LFD tools are not antisocial, they are ice breakers that also prevent LFG spam (which ruins any social atmosphere in the spam area). The real problem is twofold:

1) People in MMOs are so socially inept that they need to be told to socialise by game design.
2) Content is no longer challenging enough to warrant discussion, which means the socially inept have no reason to talk (aside from actually being social for its own sake).

Personally I don't have any issues starting chats in modern MMOs like GW2, because I don't lack social skills in real life.
  ClaudeSuamOram

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 134

3/31/13 9:04:11 AM#90
Originally posted by Raunu

You know, if you really think community is so important, help fix it. Talk to people, start of conversations in general and world chat. If you're the type that puts a big emphesis on community, I'm sure doing this will make the game much more fun for you. You can do your part to help build a better community by communicationg with people.

Don't complain about tools like an LFG tool that helps people find groups instead of having to shout in general chat.   Since that shouting about looking for groups is gone, replace it with conversations. Then, the LFG tool will be making the community better by taking out all those annoying shouts and allowing people to have conversations instead. You'll see the community can actually benefit from this kind of activity. The players themselves have just as much control over the community(maybe more) than the devs do. Take the power you're given and use it.

Agree. Problem is.....it doesn't work because no one cares to talk. At least not on an actual sociably accepted level (Friendly and mature). They are way too busy trying to be "1st", get achievements, or get that next reward to be bothered with conversation.

I have tried MANY times to do just what you have said either to be ignored, or rudely insulted. Those that actually do say something keep it very short, then move on. I've had players send me a friend invite many times...just to only call on me to help them get something, then say thanks and leave abruptly. Almost never asking me if they can d the same or ask how you are, etc.

Most conversation seen is about boobs, talking about others moms, insults to players who don't have great gear or are seen as not being "good", chuck norris, the latest reality t.v. show, or whine about features that players don't like in said game they want to seen made differently.

Sadly...just the way things are these days.

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2552

World > Quest Progression

3/31/13 10:59:47 AM#91
With automatic grouping systems and mostly trivial content one positive thing has happened...

The abundance of Anal in general chat.

If you have nothing better to talk about what do you think happens? You don't NEED hard content or the need to manually form groups but I think it helps.
  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2552

World > Quest Progression

3/31/13 12:24:06 PM#92
My apologies as I put an "ability link" in there but but it in brackets so it didn't show LOL. Plus, I'm not saying there can't be good communication in general chat but if you take away the need for game chat, such as LFG and where to locate things that are hard to find, people don't care as much what is said there and just ignore it.
  DavisFlight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2594

3/31/13 12:35:27 PM#93
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Waterlily
 

Every sporting event is forced grouping, every movie theather is forced grouping, every train is forced grouping, every bus is forced grouping, every bar is forced grouping, every subway is forced grouping, every airplane is forced grouping, every concert is forced grouping, every circus is forced grouping, every school is forced grouping, every restaurant is forced grouping, every workplace is forced grouping.

You know what they all have in common? It creates community. We're not the social inept here.

 

That is exactly why games should not be .. why shackled by the same thing that shackled you in real life? It is abotu escapism.

 

That's what singleplayer games are for bud.

  DavisFlight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2594

3/31/13 12:38:25 PM#94
Originally posted by ClaudeSuamOram
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by ClaudeSuamOram

Who is more selfish here.

The one who has many games that already cater to his tastes always attempting to out yell those asking for 1, just 1 the way they would like to see it in any and every post that pertains to an old school feel?

Or the one asking for 1 game in 1000 to release with their preferences and to be different from the slew of themepark hamster wheel games already in existence?


 

The same of course. None of these two people care about the preference of the other person.

The only difference is that the second guy can play teh victim better because he is niche and few devs care about him. More bitter != less selfish.

Again...wrong.

I may enjoy the old school, but unlike you....I completely agree there has to be options for both soloing and grouping, as well as there should be options for classic world travel (Run/walk or mount) and fast travel (teleports). Just because it's there doesn't mean you have to use it...just as because it is there you have to punish yourself in not using it. It CAN be done to have both and appease both crowds if the game is good enough and done right.

Not really. Players will always take the path of least resistance and the community will form around that. You cannot put shortcuts and easy modes into games without everyone using them.

In an old MMO, with no in game maps, a group leader who knew the layout of the world was valued.

If that same person plays an MMO with an in game map, but never opens it... no one gives a shit or values the fact that he can navigate a dungeon without opening it.

If there's optional death penalty, then no one is going to try their hardest to survive, because they don't care if they die. That one person who imposes a harsh penalty on themselves isn't going to be able to trust other people in a group scenario because they will play totally differently. Hell, people probably won't group in a game with no death penalty, why bother? Leveling by questing is faster. And to the guy who doesn't like doing quests? Well he's screwed, because the game won't support mob grinding.

 

You can't please everyone. The only successful MMOs in the past have been the ones that identify their target audience, cater to them, and set realistic expectations. Games like SWTOR that think they'll hit WoW numbers by half assing the game so that they cover everyone (and no one) well...

  VincerKaden

Novice Member

Joined: 8/12/06
Posts: 460

3/31/13 12:41:13 PM#95
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by xSh0x
 

The OP basically posits a very simple premise: its more fun to game with friends and rivals, than with strangers.

 is it? It is his opinion of so .. but it does not make it true for everyone. Fun is subjective. In fact, sometimes, for me of course, playign with stranger is more fun because there is no commitment or obligation. If i want to leave, i don't have to worry about my friend getting upset.

I think the broader point is, the quality of community does matter.  Sadly, most of those innovative features exist because of poor communities making game progression difficult.

Matter to whom? Certainly not to me. There are plenty of people to play with. There are plenty of friends to play with. Convenience is much more important than finding nice people .. because if they are not nice, i am out of there in a second.

 

I agree with the red text. My fellow players should be civil but don't need to be my friends. Strangers are just fine.

Case in point last night. I'm working on a LOTRO slayer deed. Kill 255 dragonets. I'm WAY over-level, but I need the deed. Lowbie dwarf stops by. I ask him if he's just passing through on a quest. He says he is, so I step back so I don't face roll all the mobs. He starts hitting a dragonet, and tells me to get a tap in so we both get credit. He kills his 8 dragons that he needs, we exchange a quick "Good hunting" to each other, and he runs off while I return to my deed.

Perfect.

Neither of us encroached on each others fun. We both got what we wanted, and even shared in the fun together. Then we went our own ways.

On the flip side, I've run guilds and cities in major MMOs. The obligation between everyone that becomes inherent in the guild paradigm is overwhelming at times (though can often work well, too of course). It's just that there is no "going of the separate ways" without some e-ego getting a boo-boo when someone's sense of entitlement is trod upon.

But my experience is only my own. Fun... is fun. If you're having it. more power to you. If you're not, whose fault is it?

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20682

4/01/13 12:25:06 PM#96
Originally posted by DavisFlight

If there's optional death penalty, then no one is going to try their hardest to survive, because they don't care if they die. That one person who imposes a harsh penalty on themselves isn't going to be able to trust other people in a group scenario because they will play totally differently. Hell, people probably won't group in a game with no death penalty, why bother? Leveling by questing is faster. And to the guy who doesn't like doing quests? Well he's screwed, because the game won't support mob grinding.

optional perma death works well in D3. It can be done. Just separate the two groups and don't allow them to group together. Problem solved.

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