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General Discussion Forum » The Pub at MMORPG.COM » “Innovation” is destroying community

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96 posts found
  Vorthanion

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/02/11
Posts: 1954

3/29/13 12:20:26 PM#41
Originally posted by ClaudeSuamOram
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by xSh0x
 

The OP basically posits a very simple premise: its more fun to game with friends and rivals, than with strangers.

 is it? It is his opinion of so .. but it does not make it true for everyone. Fun is subjective. In fact, sometimes, for me of course, playign with stranger is more fun because there is no commitment or obligation. If i want to leave, i don't have to worry about my friend getting upset.

 

I think the broader point is, the quality of community does matter.  Sadly, most of those innovative features exist because of poor communities making game progression difficult.

Matter to whom? Certainly not to me. There are plenty of people to play with. There are plenty of friends to play with. Convenience is much more important than finding nice people .. because if they are not nice, i am out of there in a second.

 

 

Says the guy who has repeatedly said he likes/prefers soloing and doesn't group or interact with others in games.

Developers follow the trends.  More and more people are demanding solo content in their MMOs and they are significant enough that every development house is stumbling over themselves to put it in new and old games alike.  I like games with a nice mix of solo, small group and large group content.   Multi-group content is okay as long as it doesn't get the lion's share of high end progression.  I won't play any MMO that doesn't have a decent amount of solo content, period.

  Vorthanion

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/02/11
Posts: 1954

3/29/13 12:24:00 PM#42
Originally posted by Aelious
Originally posted by GreenHell
Originally posted by jpnz
Originally posted by Dr_Shivinski

I don't really understand why anyone in here would say community is unimportant to an MMO, other than the fact that they are most likely anti-social jerks who no body would want to interact with in the first place. They claim that WoW, undoubtedly the most successful MMO of our generation to date, held no emphasis on community. Clearly the never looked outside of their miniscule social group of themselves and their hunter pets.

 

WoW is / was heavily critized by the 'pro-community' group for introducing mechanics that 'destorys communities'.

The LFG / solo-to-end-game mechanic all came from WoW.

Some people like a good community and some people don't particularly care.

For the past 7+ years, its been shown that the vast majority don't really care about communities.

Whether you like that fact or not is irrelevent. Tough.

This. People don't like facts though. They are blinded by what they want. Blinded to the point where logic and facts don't matter. Reduced to labeling people that don't agree with them. If a community driven game is in such high demand...where is it? Why isn't a triple A studio making loads of money off of it right now? Why is WoW still king and has been for over 8 years?

 

Granted, calling names is bound to draw a reciprical reaction but I feel there may be a misconception here.  Just because a company, take Blizzard, does not specifically put community related features in does not mean it isn't important to them.  Up until now it's been the players themselves that drive a community, this on a sliding scale dependent on how the game plays (solo play vs group play emphisis).  Likewise just because people play a game without a bigger sense of community doesn't mean they wouldn't like it if the rest of the game is enjoyable, could be they have never had it.  People play MMOs for a multitude of reasons.

 

I believe that there is at least one big AAA game that will put an emphisis on player interaction and on how we interact.  Just four more months...

EQN will offer solo and small group content, that has been verified.  Take that as you will, since some people find that any kind of soloish content completely ruins game community.  /sigh

  Wizardry

Elite Member

Joined: 8/27/04
Posts: 6907

Perhaps tomorrow will be better.

3/29/13 12:38:23 PM#43

Well i agree the OP is correct in saying they are trying to make games simpler,sacrificing immersion ,but convenience is NOT innovation,it has been around for hundreds of years.

The industry has not been innovative at all.What they are "trying" to do is tell us that what they are doing in their game is the best idea Furthermore instead of keeping the terms simple,they like to take something already done millions of times and call it DYNAMIC content.Only difference is other games have never seen fit to label it or try to brag about it,it has just been an accepted part of gaming in just about every single game.

Linear questing is still 100% the same as when EQ and Wow introduced it.In fact this was actually a design in older Asian games,like MU online started in 2001.So all these developers have been doing is copying  already done  boring system/mechanics.

The FIRST game to do it different was FFXI and reason why i adored ot it.They also introduced depth in combat with Renkai and magic bursts,TP attacks as well as bonus xp for killing successive mobs in timed fashion.

Eq2 brought us the nice housing and better graphics as well as mentoring.

Vanguard brought us some innovation,the politics game,some reaslism,actual trees chopped down,better view distances,seamless world,albeit there is no such thing as seamless,just appears that way.

What has every game since those 3 brought us?>>>NOTHING,just more of the same old and try to pan it off as being better or different.OR the the but but ,come play our game it might be boring and the same old,but it is f2p ! UMM  ya ok,not interested.

FYI Archeage will be the 4th game to finally bring us some innovation and maybe as important,a COMPLETE game,no excuses or telling you ,"we might" do it later,or it is coming or any other myriad of excuses we hear.

 

http://www.youtube.com/user/Napolianboo#p/u/15/rCYLLQCNc1w
Samoan Diamond

  Ghavrigg

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/10/12
Posts: 730

3/29/13 1:16:41 PM#44
Innovation and convenience do not always go hand in hand. We're clearly talking about convenience here moreso than innovation, so you should change the title of this thread.
  achesoma

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/05/05
Posts: 960

3/29/13 1:18:06 PM#45

Innovation hasn't detroyed communities.  Look at SWTOR.  It had no LFG tool at release and it did nothing to improve its community. 

 

It's the fact that MMOs are no longer niche games with small close-knit communities where everyone knows each other.  Just like going from a small town to the big city.  MMOs have joined the mainstream of gaming.  With that comes much larger populations where forging strong communities is more challenging.  While more challenging it can still be done.  A bigger threat to communities is lack of quality, in-depth MMOs forcing players to hop from game to game.  A game can still have convenience features, innovation and depth.  Developers are too focused on the skinner-box, combat-driven, gear grinds that I believe a lot of MMOers are burnt out on. 

  RizelStar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/12/11
Posts: 2824

We all breathe and we all die.

3/29/13 1:21:48 PM#46

All I'm gonna say, if I honestly like being and forming a community, I sure as hell don't have be required to form and be in one.

I understand it's hard, but heck, like I said I don't have to be required.

Same thing with being social those who aren't want to be forced/required to socialize, and those who are don't care either way because they themselves are social, who know how and end up meeting other social people.

Yes it's that simple, maybe not to do but that's just the truth. 

 

Stop relying on being required because to be quite frank that's destroying the community.

I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.

I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.

P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)

Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.

  GreenHell

Novice Member

Joined: 11/27/05
Posts: 1342

3/29/13 1:39:37 PM#47
Originally posted by Aelious
Originally posted by GreenHell
Originally posted by jpnz
Originally posted by Dr_Shivinski

I don't really understand why anyone in here would say community is unimportant to an MMO, other than the fact that they are most likely anti-social jerks who no body would want to interact with in the first place. They claim that WoW, undoubtedly the most successful MMO of our generation to date, held no emphasis on community. Clearly the never looked outside of their miniscule social group of themselves and their hunter pets.

 

WoW is / was heavily critized by the 'pro-community' group for introducing mechanics that 'destorys communities'.

The LFG / solo-to-end-game mechanic all came from WoW.

Some people like a good community and some people don't particularly care.

For the past 7+ years, its been shown that the vast majority don't really care about communities.

Whether you like that fact or not is irrelevent. Tough.

This. People don't like facts though. They are blinded by what they want. Blinded to the point where logic and facts don't matter. Reduced to labeling people that don't agree with them. If a community driven game is in such high demand...where is it? Why isn't a triple A studio making loads of money off of it right now? Why is WoW still king and has been for over 8 years?

 

Granted, calling names is bound to draw a reciprical reaction but I feel there may be a misconception here.  Just because a company, take Blizzard, does not specifically put community related features in does not mean it isn't important to them.  Up until now it's been the players themselves that drive a community, this on a sliding scale dependent on how the game plays (solo play vs group play emphisis).  Likewise just because people play a game without a bigger sense of community doesn't mean they wouldn't like it if the rest of the game is enjoyable, could be they have never had it.  People play MMOs for a multitude of reasons.

 

I believe that there is at least one big AAA game that will put an emphisis on player interaction and on how we interact.  Just four more months...

Your points are well made. However if Blizzard does not specifically put community related features in to a game there must be a reason. Blizzard as well as other companies spend a lot of money to find out what people are looking for. What features will work and what features will not be popular. Obviously community related features do not rank high on that list. This is why WoW has changed in to the game it is. Like it or hate it there is a reason.

 

 

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2511

World > Quest Progression

3/29/13 2:04:00 PM#48
Originally posted by GreenHell
Originally posted by Aelious
Originally posted by GreenHell
Originally posted by jpnz
Originally posted by Dr_Shivinski

I don't really understand why anyone in here would say community is unimportant to an MMO, other than the fact that they are most likely anti-social jerks who no body would want to interact with in the first place. They claim that WoW, undoubtedly the most successful MMO of our generation to date, held no emphasis on community. Clearly the never looked outside of their miniscule social group of themselves and their hunter pets.

 

WoW is / was heavily critized by the 'pro-community' group for introducing mechanics that 'destorys communities'.

The LFG / solo-to-end-game mechanic all came from WoW.

Some people like a good community and some people don't particularly care.

For the past 7+ years, its been shown that the vast majority don't really care about communities.

Whether you like that fact or not is irrelevent. Tough.

This. People don't like facts though. They are blinded by what they want. Blinded to the point where logic and facts don't matter. Reduced to labeling people that don't agree with them. If a community driven game is in such high demand...where is it? Why isn't a triple A studio making loads of money off of it right now? Why is WoW still king and has been for over 8 years?

 

Granted, calling names is bound to draw a reciprical reaction but I feel there may be a misconception here.  Just because a company, take Blizzard, does not specifically put community related features in does not mean it isn't important to them.  Up until now it's been the players themselves that drive a community, this on a sliding scale dependent on how the game plays (solo play vs group play emphisis).  Likewise just because people play a game without a bigger sense of community doesn't mean they wouldn't like it if the rest of the game is enjoyable, could be they have never had it.  People play MMOs for a multitude of reasons.

 

I believe that there is at least one big AAA game that will put an emphisis on player interaction and on how we interact.  Just four more months...

Your points are well made. However if Blizzard does not specifically put community related features in to a game there must be a reason. Blizzard as well as other companies spend a lot of money to find out what people are looking for. What features will work and what features will not be popular. Obviously community related features do not rank high on that list. This is why WoW has changed in to the game it is. Like it or hate it there is a reason.

 

Well right now they have over 9 million subs so yeah,  I doubt they are going to make any changes unless it is a major change the largest amount of people will enjoy.  I'm really not sure what they could add that would be cohesive with their current gameplay model anyhow, aside from maybe RP tools.  I'm not saying that a majority of people want better commnuity tools, what I'm saying is that they can always make a game better.  I bet RP communities would agree with this and in most games, especially WoW, they can be large.  Although some might not care about a better community I can't imagine they would be against it.

  Yyrkoon_PoM

Novice Member

Joined: 9/27/12
Posts: 150

3/29/13 2:11:16 PM#49

I don't think adding new and different ways to socializing is doing any more damage to MMOs than say the internet did to the world society. I mean the game companies did not take the old ways of socializing out of the game, as people can still group and chat and form guilds/kins, clans .... It just happens to be easier now for the people that are comfortable with modern sensibilities and for those of us dinosaurs  well we can still do things the way we did when we started gaming.  I don't think it is the innovation that is the problem but may just be that with a more diverse group of people playing a game it just seems that the % of people actively forming the traditional community seems smaller and smaller.

  Arclan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/29/07
Posts: 1443

"Ideas are worthless. The only currency that holds any weight is the ability and drive to execute."

3/29/13 2:27:26 PM#50

/agree with the O.P.

Most MMOs refer to 'dumbing down' or 'simplifying' as innovation. But in fact, when I think of true innovation, I think of Vanguard's UI.


1. While grouped, I can at a glance see where group mates are in relation to me; can see if any of them have aggro; and see exactly what mob(s) are aggroing.


2. After a mob dies, any loot appears in a popup window where players can click a button to roll for who gets it.


There are likely many others, but I haven't played Vanguard since launch and that's quite a while ago.

Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
video game company layoffs are twice the national average.

  GreenHell

Novice Member

Joined: 11/27/05
Posts: 1342

3/29/13 2:39:11 PM#51
Originally posted by Aelious

Well right now they have over 9 million subs so yeah,  I doubt they are going to make any changes unless it is a major change the largest amount of people will enjoy.  I'm really not sure what they could add that would be cohesive with their current gameplay model anyhow, aside from maybe RP tools.  I'm not saying that a majority of people want better commnuity tools, what I'm saying is that they can always make a game better.  I bet RP communities would agree with this and in most games, especially WoW, they can be large.  Although some might not care about a better community I can't imagine they would be against it.

Once again well said and I agree that if they did add tools for RPers that it would not negatively impact the game. In fact I'm sure most people would not even notice. My point being is there must be a reason they do not. That part of the player base is either to small, not vocal, or are happy with the way things are.

I don't think adding more options to a game can ever be a negative thing. Options are great even if I never use them. You see thats where this debate really starts. Having the option and forcing that style of gameplay are two different things. Adding tools to make those that want to participate in community is the logical thing to do in this era of MMORPGs. Making a MMO that is designed to force people to be active in the community is a thing of the past.

  Jemcrystal

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/02/08
Posts: 1369

Let em put a slave ring thru u're nose u're prob not going to like where they're taking you. Think.

3/29/13 3:38:08 PM#52
 Disagree.  Dungeon finders never ruined my ability to make friends in a game.  They did make getting into a dungeon a LOT less boring.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6EoRBvdVPQ

  nariusseldon

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20226

3/29/13 5:40:03 PM#53
Originally posted by Jemcrystal
 Disagree.  Dungeon finders never ruined my ability to make friends in a game.  They did make getting into a dungeon a LOT less boring.

Yeh.

It is laughable to think that a game needs forced down-time to make friends.

In fact, i have made friends even in non-MMO with zero down-time. Heck, if the game has a chat-channel, and a friend list, you can make friends and have a "community".

 

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2511

World > Quest Progression

3/29/13 5:59:14 PM#54
If course it's laughable to someone that admittedly doesn't care about anything but their personal enjoyment and likes to play MMOs as SP games. There isn't anything wrong with that but I wouldn't expect someone with that viewpoint to understand.
  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2511

World > Quest Progression

3/29/13 6:02:00 PM#55
Some people would gladly trade and enjoy that down time for deeper interactions in game. You don't, that's fine just don't put down people who do. Aren't you the one who tells people that because they don't like something doesn't mean others do as well? Someone with your atypical attitude should understand this just fine.
  ClaudeSuamOram

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 134

3/29/13 7:29:08 PM#56
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by bingbongbros
Originally posted by nariusseldon
 

yeah .. short term fun. And there are endless games to try so it is not like there will be a shortage of fun in the future. I would rather have short term good fun, then long term mediocre fun in a single game. And all entertainment gets boring in a while.

You are the problem with mmo communities, and people just like you.  MMO's were originally and still trying to be a home for players to have fun and make connections over a long period of time.  That is why they are never supposed to have an "end".

 They are not very successful at the original idea, are they? There is nothing they are "supposed" to be. They are just entertainment products .. and try to survive in the market place.

But people in your boat consume like locusts and then move on to the next host to devour.  And then there are a slew of ghost town games, some because they were poorly made and others because of nomad gamers.

Don't sound like your entertainment preference is special and "better" than others. I use my entertainment my way, and vote with my wallet. You do the same. Yeah, of course i game-hop. That is human nature to have a variety of experiences. So what there is a slew of ghost town games. Just play the next one that is not.

 

LOL! Nariu...you are so out of touch with what "genre" means. Or MMORPG at it's roots.

Prior to WoW's main streaming of MMORPG's to the mass of gamers from other "genres"...they were very successful in making their games more long term and dedicated to social interaction. It's why they were niche and fairly unknown to those masses.

But again...once Blizzard mass advertised and brought in these main stream gamers...all companies shifted to cater to those masses who were familiar with fast paced, I'm the hero, reward/achievement hungry types of game play...hence what we have now, and why MMORPG's are almost extinct.

Sadly...Blizzard hit at the right time and these other companies lost sight of what made MMORPG's stand apart from other gaming genre's...opting to mix them into SP heavy, reward happy games you see now all in the name of not just profit...but chasing the stupid profit Blizzard made.

Also why I feel you see so many MMORPG's come and go...failing to get there. Also why so many players hop games. You don't have any time to feel attachment to your character, the world you play in, or the community to care to stay. On top of most of them being horribly done.

Your last paragraph shows your true colors. You are not an MMORPG player, yet you want to make MMORPG's the type of game you like so you have more options for your game hopping....and expect everyone else to follow suit. Selfish to the core.

  nariusseldon

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20226

3/29/13 7:48:13 PM#57
Originally posted by Aelious
Some people would gladly trade and enjoy that down time for deeper interactions in game. You don't, that's fine just don't put down people who do. Aren't you the one who tells people that because they don't like something doesn't mean others do as well? Someone with your atypical attitude should understand this just fine.

There is no "deeper" interaction in down-time, just chat. I have been there. I have been on MSN, and EQ down-time .. EQ down-time is nothing more special than a MSN chat-room.

Oh ... i never said i look down on those who like down-time. If you like a 20 min boat ride, or stare at a spell book chatting for 10 min .. it is your perogative. There is nothing wrong with that.

However, it is wrong to claim that you need that boat ride, or the 10 min "quality" time with your spell book to make friends. It is not required. I have made friends (and so have many) on games with zero down-time. Heck, even games that are not MMOs. So if you make that claim, i will dispute. If you say you like to ride a horse for 20 min look at grassland, i say be my guest .. sorry i don't share that desire.

 

  nariusseldon

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20226

3/29/13 7:52:04 PM#58
Originally posted by ClaudeSuamOram

Your last paragraph shows your true colors. You are not an MMORPG player, yet you want to make MMORPG's the type of game you like so you have more options for your game hopping....and expect everyone else to follow suit. Selfish to the core.

Of course i am not a "classic" MMORPG player. Didn't you read many times that the horrible EQ camping, or griefing UO is zero fun, boring to me?

However, MMOs are not like that any more, are they? Aren't many of you complain that modern MMOs are lobby co-op games? Didn't you read many times that i *like* lobby co-op games? So why do you think i am here? For the classics, or for the modern?

And you are confused .. i don't need any MMO to become what i like .. the devs want to make them to please my preferences.

And selfish? well well well .. you don't want games made for your preferences? You want games made for me? If not, you are as selfish as me.

Don't confuse "expressing my opinion" to "expect everyone to follow suit". We are on the internet. No sane person to expect a few posts will make anyone to follow anything.

  User Deleted
3/29/13 8:01:10 PM#59

Deeper interaction:

 

"Hey xxStealthyxx...what's your favorite color? Do you like Pie?"

  nariusseldon

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20226

3/29/13 8:09:38 PM#60
Originally posted by Psychow

Deeper interaction:

 

"Hey xxStealthyxx...what's your favorite color? Do you like Pie?"

Or may be they mean loot drama, or arguing who is next in camping. Glad i don't need to tolerate "deeper interactions" anymore.

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