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General Discussion Forum » The Pub at MMORPG.COM » “Innovation” is destroying community

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96 posts found
  WellzyC

Novice Member

Joined: 10/04/11
Posts: 546

Ceaseless

 
OP  3/28/13 4:21:14 PM#1

 

Innovation is a nice 50 cent word that mmo devs love to throw around when they are talking about their game.  “Our game is innovative because we have these systems in place, or we do this in order to make your experience more convenient and fun”.

 

But innovation comes in many different forms and has lots of different paths. The most common path of “innovation” that seems to be really popular with game devs is convenience. How can we game the game more accessible, faster, and easier for casual players to get into. These innovative systems are designed to allow people to be more independent, to be put in groups at the touch of a button, and place every single person on one giant server.

 

Sound good right? We’ll here’s the problem with that.

While watching the Dave Georgenson interview it started to get me thinking about “depth of features” and how recent mmos claim to be innovative but have created convenience systems in their game that actively discourage player interaction and the development of community. Lots of features in new mmos that have taken away the need or ability to get to know the people you encounter.

Examples?

The dungeon finder:  You don’t have to actively talk to people and recruit them in order to form a group.

 

No loot sharing:  This is a small one, but small things add up, when a creature or boss dies everyone has a copy of the loot so there is no need to discuss who gets what, or talk about something “cool that dropped”.

 

Instanced story content and cut scenes: I have talked before about how I despise scripted content, so I won’t go into that again, but there are a lot of games making instanced stories and cut scenes the main focus of the game. Interaction between players is not wanted when someone is trying to read or listen to dialog. In Swtor, I actually had a guy leave the Vent channel because people were talking over his cut scenes.. you kidding me?

 

The Mega Server:  this one gets me the most, and not just ESO, gw2 has a similar problem. Community is developed by familiarity, when you see the same people over and over again, you are far more likely to talk with them and interact. If you see the same five people in a public dungeon that you saw yesterday,  you are more likely to strike up a conversation or group. Seeing the same guilds and seeing the same enemies creates comradery and creates rivelries. You don’t feel inclined to remember anyone you grouped with, or try to interact with them beyond going through the motions of a group if you know there is little to no chance you will ever see that player again.

 

 

These are just some examples of a larger growing problem. Innovation is way too focused on creating convenience that is phasing out community. This is why older MMOs have lasted so long, years and years, because community has been created over the need to get to know the people you play with. You have to be in good standing with other players in order to survive and get anything meaningful accomplished.

 

MMOs of today do not require you to form a community in order to progress because the games systems have bypassed that requirement through “innovative” features.

 

Not all innovation is bad, it still is a good word and games need to be innovative in order to survive this really competitive game market. But through innovation developers are sabotaging themselves by creating a shallow game that has only enough short term appeal as the shiny combat, or fancy scripted content that they have created. Completely forgetting the very essence of what makes an mmo great, creating a community through depth of features, familiarity, and the need to rely on others.

 

‘Till next time!

The way mmo's were: Community, Exploration, Character Development, Conquest.

The way mmo's are now : Cut-Scenes,Cut-Scenes, Linear Questing, Cut-Scenes...


www.CeaselessGuild.com

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19503

3/28/13 4:24:40 PM#2
Originally posted by WellzyC

MMOs of today do not require you to form a community in order to progress because the games systems have bypassed that requirement through “innovative” features.

So? Obviously communtiy is not requierd to have fun .. and the innvoations you described recognize that.

I like all those features. No ninja-loot system is great. LFD is great. LFR is great .. for me, of course.

  WellzyC

Novice Member

Joined: 10/04/11
Posts: 546

Ceaseless

 
OP  3/28/13 4:41:52 PM#3
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by WellzyC

MMOs of today do not require you to form a community in order to progress because the games systems have bypassed that requirement through “innovative” features.

So? Obviously communtiy is not requierd to have fun .. and the innvoations you described recognize that.

I like all those features. No ninja-loot system is great. LFD is great. LFR is great .. for me, of course.

 

Short term fun, I feel that without the depth of features that comes from a game that supports interaction and requries it, is far more entertaining and has that elusive "longevity"  that todays overly scripted, convience oriented mmos severly lack.

The way mmo's were: Community, Exploration, Character Development, Conquest.

The way mmo's are now : Cut-Scenes,Cut-Scenes, Linear Questing, Cut-Scenes...


www.CeaselessGuild.com

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19503

3/28/13 4:46:38 PM#4
Originally posted by WellzyC
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by WellzyC

MMOs of today do not require you to form a community in order to progress because the games systems have bypassed that requirement through “innovative” features.

So? Obviously communtiy is not requierd to have fun .. and the innvoations you described recognize that.

I like all those features. No ninja-loot system is great. LFD is great. LFR is great .. for me, of course.

 

Short term fun, I feel that without the depth of features that comes from a game that supports interaction and requries it, is far more entertaining and has that elusive "longevity"  that todays overly scripted, convience oriented mmos severly lack.

yeah .. short term fun. And there are endless games to try so it is not like there will be a shortage of fun in the future. I would rather have short term good fun, then long term mediocre fun in a single game. And all entertainment gets boring in a while.

  jpnz

Elite Member

Joined: 6/29/06
Posts: 3542

3/28/13 4:47:39 PM#5
Originally posted by WellzyC
 

Short term fun, I feel that without the depth of features that comes from a game that supports interaction and requries it, is far more entertaining and has that elusive "longevity"  that todays overly scripted, convience oriented mmos severly lack.

WoW is still going strong last I checked and the 'post-WoW' era has been going on longer than the 'old school' era.

So the 'short term fun' is factually false in the market place.

The majority of people don't find the 'community' aspect worth it so games are not pushing for it. Not sure why this is a big issue. Supply / Demand; working as intended.

Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  xSh0x

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/19/07
Posts: 127

3/28/13 4:52:55 PM#6
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by WellzyC

MMOs of today do not require you to form a community in order to progress because the games systems have bypassed that requirement through “innovative” features.

So? Obviously communtiy is not requierd to have fun .. and the innvoations you described recognize that.

I like all those features. No ninja-loot system is great. LFD is great. LFR is great .. for me, of course.

The OP basically posits a very simple premise: its more fun to game with friends and rivals, than with strangers.

 

I think the broader point is, the quality of community does matter.  Sadly, most of those innovative features exist because of poor communities making game progression difficult.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19503

3/28/13 6:15:23 PM#7
Originally posted by xSh0x
 

The OP basically posits a very simple premise: its more fun to game with friends and rivals, than with strangers.

 is it? It is his opinion of so .. but it does not make it true for everyone. Fun is subjective. In fact, sometimes, for me of course, playign with stranger is more fun because there is no commitment or obligation. If i want to leave, i don't have to worry about my friend getting upset.

I think the broader point is, the quality of community does matter.  Sadly, most of those innovative features exist because of poor communities making game progression difficult.

Matter to whom? Certainly not to me. There are plenty of people to play with. There are plenty of friends to play with. Convenience is much more important than finding nice people .. because if they are not nice, i am out of there in a second.

 

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2393

World > Quest Progression

3/28/13 6:48:59 PM#8
I agree OP and that Georgenson interview brought a smile to my face, as most EQN related news/comments have. I don't care how many players want to be unsocial in an MMO, as asinine as it seems, having systems that encourage or even force interaction is a good thing IMO. Make it public too so that those who don't like interacting with others don't bother playing. You can't make everyone happy and there are clearly enough MMOs out there to play without taking to anyone.

SoE's innovations will be a great step in communicating with others. They already have good voice and visual chat with SoEMote. Add in the fact that PS2 has open proximity chat tells me I'll be able to walk up to strangers in a town and our avatars could not only chat verbally but visually.

That's my idea of MMO innovation! :)
  User Deleted
3/28/13 6:52:44 PM#9

My sense of community revolves arround my guild and other players on my friends list.

 

I don't really have to chit-chat with every person I meet in a PUG (LFG).

  waynejr2

Elite Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3732

RIP City of Heroes!

3/28/13 6:58:43 PM#10
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by WellzyC
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by WellzyC

MMOs of today do not require you to form a community in order to progress because the games systems have bypassed that requirement through “innovative” features.

So? Obviously communtiy is not requierd to have fun .. and the innvoations you described recognize that.

I like all those features. No ninja-loot system is great. LFD is great. LFR is great .. for me, of course.

 

Short term fun, I feel that without the depth of features that comes from a game that supports interaction and requries it, is far more entertaining and has that elusive "longevity"  that todays overly scripted, convience oriented mmos severly lack.

yeah .. short term fun. And there are endless games to try so it is not like there will be a shortage of fun in the future. I would rather have short term good fun, then long term mediocre fun in a single game. And all entertainment gets boring in a while.

 Considering the number of people around here who try a game for a short time then list a number of reasons why the game is bad it's hard to imagine they will find endless fun.

  azmundai

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/18/10
Posts: 1424

3/28/13 7:02:12 PM#11

i agree, for me community is a big part of the fun factor. might as well play console games if not for community. really wish there were devs that understood that kind of gaming.

LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already :)

  GreenHell

Novice Member

Joined: 11/27/05
Posts: 1341

3/28/13 7:20:34 PM#12

If community is so important to people why are the games that focus on community never a huge success? Where does community stand as far as how important it is to people? It can't be very high on the list. If it was WoW sure wouldn't be what it is and has been for over 8 years. Because as everyone on these forums says WoW has the worst community ever.

I guess I just don't understand how it can be both ways. If community is so important than WoW should not have ever been popular..unless WoW's community isnt as bad as so many people on these forums say it is...or...Community is not as imporatnt as these people say and that is why wow is popular. Someone has to be wrong.

  User Deleted
3/28/13 7:22:30 PM#13
Originally posted by GreenHell

If community is so important to people why are the games that focus on community never a huge success? Where does community stand as far as how important it is to people? It can't be very high on the list. If it was WoW sure wouldn't be what it is and has been for over 8 years. Because as everyone on these forums says WoW has the worst community ever.

I guess I just don't understand how it can be both ways. If community is so important than WoW should not have ever been popular..unless WoW's community isnt as bad as so many people on these forums say it is...or...Community is not as imporatnt as these people say and that is why wow is popular. Someone has to be wrong.

 

/reported for using logic and reason

 

Enjoy your ban!!

  azmundai

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/18/10
Posts: 1424

3/28/13 7:29:03 PM#14


Originally posted by GreenHell
If community is so important to people why are the games that focus on community never a huge success? Where does community stand as far as how important it is to people? It can't be very high on the list. If it was WoW sure wouldn't be what it is and has been for over 8 years. Because as everyone on these forums says WoW has the worst community ever.

I guess I just don't understand how it can be both ways. If community is so important than WoW should not have ever been popular..unless WoW's community isnt as bad as so many people on these forums say it is...or...Community is not as imporatnt as these people say and that is why wow is popular. Someone has to be wrong.



always black and white on these forums.

not everyone cares that much about community. some people would like to actually have one of these mysterious games that focus on community that you talk about. please point one out, i'd love to see one.

wow used to have a much better community.

wow still has pockets of good community, but many of us are looking for something besides wow. there is more to it than just community. wow simply isn't challenging unless you are running hard mode raids. wow used to be challenging just running strat/scholo and ubrs. the leveling dungeons used to be challenging.

I personally don't care if people don't care about community. more power to ya. have at it ... I'd just love to see a game that doesn't have all this instant gratification easy mode community breaking content.

LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already :)

  waynejr2

Elite Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3732

RIP City of Heroes!

3/28/13 7:32:53 PM#15
Originally posted by GreenHell

If community is so important to people why are the games that focus on community never a huge success? Where does community stand as far as how important it is to people? It can't be very high on the list. If it was WoW sure wouldn't be what it is and has been for over 8 years. Because as everyone on these forums says WoW has the worst community ever.

I guess I just don't understand how it can be both ways. If community is so important than WoW should not have ever been popular..unless WoW's community isnt as bad as so many people on these forums say it is...or...Community is not as imporatnt as these people say and that is why wow is popular. Someone has to be wrong.

 But you remember the days of forced grouping to advance.  That was community!

  GreenHell

Novice Member

Joined: 11/27/05
Posts: 1341

3/28/13 7:44:54 PM#16
Originally posted by azmundai

 


Originally posted by GreenHell
If community is so important to people why are the games that focus on community never a huge success? Where does community stand as far as how important it is to people? It can't be very high on the list. If it was WoW sure wouldn't be what it is and has been for over 8 years. Because as everyone on these forums says WoW has the worst community ever.

 

I guess I just don't understand how it can be both ways. If community is so important than WoW should not have ever been popular..unless WoW's community isnt as bad as so many people on these forums say it is...or...Community is not as imporatnt as these people say and that is why wow is popular. Someone has to be wrong.



always black and white on these forums.

Because that is the way logic works.

 

not everyone cares that much about community. some people would like to actually have one of these mysterious games that focus on community that you talk about. please point one out, i'd love to see one.

Ryzom does, SWG did, EQ still does. EVE does. What do/did these games have in common? They are all niche.

 

wow used to have a much better community.

wow still has pockets of good community, but many of us are looking for something besides wow. there is more to it than just community. wow simply isn't challenging unless you are running hard mode raids. wow used to be challenging just running strat/scholo and ubrs. the leveling dungeons used to be challenging.

Blizzard tried to go back to the more challenging dungeons with Cata and what happened? Something like 2 million people left. That is not what those people wanted in a MMORPG.

I personally don't care if people don't care about community. more power to ya. have at it ... I'd just love to see a game that doesn't have all this instant gratification easy more community breaking content.

I gave you a few options up there. Lets be honest though you want a NEW game that focuses on the things you like. Fair enough, but how can you blame any developer when they look at the past success of those type of games? 250k players is not considered a win anymore. This isn't 1998.

  azmundai

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/18/10
Posts: 1424

3/28/13 7:47:11 PM#17

"Because that is the way logic works."
stopped reading there. obviously not worth my time if you dont realize different people have different ideas of things and play games for reasons other than the reasons you play them.

gday sir

LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already :)

  GreenHell

Novice Member

Joined: 11/27/05
Posts: 1341

3/28/13 7:49:07 PM#18
Originally posted by azmundai

"Because that is the way logic works."
stopped reading there. obviously not worth my time if you dont realize different people have different ideas of things and play games for reasons other than the reasons you play them.

gday sir

LOL....ok.

  xeniar

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/09/06
Posts: 808

3/28/13 7:54:53 PM#19
Originally posted by Psychow
Originally posted by GreenHell

If community is so important to people why are the games that focus on community never a huge success? Where does community stand as far as how important it is to people? It can't be very high on the list. If it was WoW sure wouldn't be what it is and has been for over 8 years. Because as everyone on these forums says WoW has the worst community ever.

I guess I just don't understand how it can be both ways. If community is so important than WoW should not have ever been popular..unless WoW's community isnt as bad as so many people on these forums say it is...or...Community is not as imporatnt as these people say and that is why wow is popular. Someone has to be wrong.

 

/reported for using logic and reason

 

Enjoy your ban!!

hes right if you look at woW numbers.

disregarding the fact that pre=wow the number of MMO players was much smaller. Thus the games having smaller sub numbers. Now u could argue that people who like community would play those old games well:

some people (me for instance) want some eye candy, can't really play tho old ones. you can say WoW is old asswell. but WoW's cartoony graphics age well. Other more realistic grapihcs do not unless then overhaul alot of stuff. wich aint happening.

Also if youd join one of those games now youd be pretty much alone in those starting areas. thus people cannot give the game a good chanse an get to know the community because playing alone in a game where grouping is pretty much required is well quite hard/ imposible.

This has nothing to do with people loving a community or not. we just have to face that those games are too old.

I bet if a mmo with those old principles and mechanics (leveling being an adventure, dangorous areas, almost no quests exept for ones wich are meaningfull, forced grouping etc etc (granted some things can be updated) with nice grapichs. (2013 not pre-2000 graphics) would launch now. people would be able to give it a fair shot and i think alot more people would stay there to play instead of our current themeparks.

 

you really cannot compare a possible market of 2mil max (pre 2000) compared to the what have we 20million mmo players we have now, its not fair comparing the subnumbers of those old mmo's compared to today's So all the theorycrafting u guys are doing is meanigless.

Nobody can for sure say what will happen to such an MMO. We would ahve to wait for a developer to actually make and release a good one.

  xeniar

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/09/06
Posts: 808

3/28/13 7:58:51 PM#20
Originally posted by GreenHell

wow used to have a much better community.

wow still has pockets of good community, but many of us are looking for something besides wow. there is more to it than just community. wow simply isn't challenging unless you are running hard mode raids. wow used to be challenging just running strat/scholo and ubrs. the leveling dungeons used to be challenging.

Blizzard tried to go back to the more challenging dungeons with Cata and what happened? Something like 2 million people left. That is not what those people wanted in a MMORPG.

Greenhell rofl.... No you got it wrong there.

People got fed up with themeparks. not the game starting to be more chalanging again.

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