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General Discussion Forum » The Pub at MMORPG.COM » The success of EQ advancement.

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142 posts found
  cenen7

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/06/11
Posts: 53

4/01/13 7:37:35 PM#121

i may be wrong, but i think the success and fun of original eq was the fact that players had to discover everything and find where to camp etc.   The devs didnt force players to certain areas , it was non-linear.  Also, it was challenging even at early levels. Remember dying to rats near the city? 

I think sandbox is a step in the right direction, dunno why so many games spawned off WoW.

  Ramanadjinn

Novice Member

Joined: 8/08/11
Posts: 1316

4/01/13 7:39:22 PM#122
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by Lonzo
You can see with this hot topic how big the demand for EQ1 like games is..

What I don't understand is why there are so many people agressively fighting against oldschool PvE.

I mean, we're fighting FOR that PvE because it doesn't exist in modern MMOs. They already have the kind of gameplay they like in a thousand different WoW clones, are they really that bitter and selfish that they will not allow us to have our style of gameplay?

 

Yes.

I got into this same argument in the GW2 beta when i pointed out on the official forums that I couldn't level up my character by grinding mobs.  So many people flamed me with the "they made dynamic events and they're awesome and you should do those to level" mindset and I never found one person who could understand the simple concept that all I wanted was a way for them to have fun with their dynamic events and me to have fun grinding my mobs and there was no reason for either of us to be at odds with one another.

Too many people think that for their fun to exist it has to be at someone else's detriment.  There is a "one true way" and anything outside of that single fun thing is not fun and as such should not exist.  Fun is not something that everyone will always agree upon and this is the entire reason we need options, not "one true ways."

Its no different than the classic themepark vs. sandbox argument.  Its a false dilemma.

 

  GreenHell

Novice Member

Joined: 11/27/05
Posts: 1342

4/01/13 7:49:17 PM#123
Originally posted by osiriszoran

Well if the dev team is not very good then anything they produce will be crap (vanguard/FE). 

Agreed. 

You're also speculating btw by saying if a dev team tried to make an mmo that was basically SWG 2.0 that it would fail or not get wow numbers.

Yes it is speculation but it is speculation looking at the current trends and what history has proven. I don't believe if done properly it would fail. I believe that it won't be as big as WoW or even close to it and that is ok. You don't need those numbers to have a healthy game. I really don't think any game will ever dominate the way WoW has ever again.

I think you're wrong. I think if a dev team took a serious look at what swg did right, what wow did right, and what eq/uo did right, someone could make an amazing mmorpg. The problem is, i dont think any current dev team wants to committ to such a tremendous task. Like i said, most of them just want to pump out a wow clone and try for the cash grab.

I don't know how many of them could get an investor to shell out the kind of money you would need to make this ultimate game. The things you want to mix and match to put in to a game would look good on paper the actual implementation of all of that could easily go very wrong, very quickly.

TBH I don't want a game that tries to please everyone. There is a strong enough niche market to make a successful SWG clone. There is really no reason to go further than that. That is where a developer would f*ck it all up.

SWG didnt die from lack of playerbase. it stll had 100k when it was taken offline. It died from its license being pulled in hopes of making TOR a wow killer. 

I really don't think there was 100k people there. The estimates I read were somewhere between 30-40k and from what I saw that would be pretty accurate. Maybe even a bit lower for actual players since everyone had multiple accounts.

No it didn't die from not making money but it didn't make so much money that it would have been crazy to pull the license. It was niche and with a better launch and more development time it would have been a much more successful niche game.

Being niche isnt a bad thing. EVE has done quite well for itself. That is sort of how I see the future of MMORPGs going. A lot of titles offering different things for different people. Lots of options for everyone. Not one game that rules the genre for a decade. This is all speculation and opinion of course but I believe it would be much better than the current state of the genre. More options are never a bad thing for anyone.

  ClaudeSuamOram

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 134

4/01/13 7:52:21 PM#124
Originally posted by GreenHell

I think you're wrong. I think if a dev team took a serious look at what swg did right, what wow did right, and what eq/uo did right, someone could make an amazing mmorpg. The problem is, i dont think any current dev team wants to committ to such a tremendous task. Like i said, most of them just want to pump out a wow clone and try for the cash grab.

I don't know how many of them could get an investor to shell out the kind of money you would need to make this ultimate game. The things you want to mix and match to put in to a game would look good on paper the actual implementation of all of that could easily go very wrong, very quickly.

TBH I don't want a game that tries to please everyone. There is a strong enough niche market to make a successful SWG clone. There is really no reason to go further than that. That is where a developer would f*ck it all up.

Dang double post...see below. /blush

  ClaudeSuamOram

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 134

4/01/13 7:53:03 PM#125
Originally posted by ClaudeSuamOram
Originally posted by GreenHell

I think you're wrong. I think if a dev team took a serious look at what swg did right, what wow did right, and what eq/uo did right, someone could make an amazing mmorpg. The problem is, i dont think any current dev team wants to committ to such a tremendous task. Like i said, most of them just want to pump out a wow clone and try for the cash grab.

I don't know how many of them could get an investor to shell out the kind of money you would need to make this ultimate game. The things you want to mix and match to put in to a game would look good on paper the actual implementation of all of that could easily go very wrong, very quickly.

TBH I don't want a game that tries to please everyone. There is a strong enough niche market to make a successful SWG clone. There is really no reason to go further than that. That is where a developer would f*ck it all up.

*See SWTOR* $300 million squandered...that could of MADE that MMORPG osiriszoren spoke of.

  Waterlily

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/26/08
Posts: 2933

4/01/13 7:57:09 PM#126
Originally posted by cenen7

i may be wrong, but i think the success and fun of original eq was the fact that players had to discover everything and find where to camp etc.   The devs didnt force players to certain areas , it was non-linear.  Also, it was challenging even at early levels. Remember dying to rats near the city? 

I think sandbox is a step in the right direction, dunno why so many games spawned off WoW.

EQ was the perfect mix of a sandbox and themepark.

It was 80% sandbox and 20% themepark springled on top of it.

  niceguy3978

Elite Member

Joined: 6/14/06
Posts: 2015

4/01/13 9:00:55 PM#127
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by niceguy3978
Originally posted by Lonzo

Why all these Quest games? With leveling by questing you are limited to just ONE way of leveling. Back in the days with EQ there where leveling groups everywhere in every dungeon and in every zone. It was just good old dungeon crawling. And the few quests seem very important and meaningful....

 

I miss those days...

You were doing the same thing in multiple places.  That is still just one way of leveling you are just doing it in different places.  Most games launched today have more ways of leveling than EQ had.  You couldn't level from pvp, you couldn't level from gathering/crafting, you didn't get xp from exploring new places.  You killed stuff, that was it.  Don't get me wrong, 90% of what you do now is kill stuff also, but my main point is there was really only 1 way to gain xp in everquest, you could just do it in more places.

Let's not lie to ourselves. The only viable way to level up in modern MMOs is to grind quests. In old MMOs I could level up through 4 different PvE means. Now there is only one.

What were the 4 means of pve leveling?  I don't really consider choosing to kite 2 mobs instead of pulling one a different way of pve leveling, but I know that my opinion isn't the end all be all either and others can and will disagree with me.  I did nothing but run dungions after level 15 in wow a few years ago, and another toon I did nothing but do bg's.  I will say that I wish there were more variety for those that want to mob grind if they want.  I think that is my current gripe with mmos, I have fun in most that I have played but I do want more variety when it comes to the "meat" of leveling.

  GreenHell

Novice Member

Joined: 11/27/05
Posts: 1342

4/02/13 12:21:37 PM#128

*snip*
*See SWTOR* $300 million squandered...that could of MADE that MMORPG osiriszoren spoke of.

It would take a lot more than just money to make that game. Do you really think EA/BW would be up to that challenge? How many developers would be?  It would be a huge mistake at any rate. Spend a fraction of that on making a very solid niche MMO. Make sure that people know it is going to be a niche MMO and it will not be changing to try and please the masses. Keep your costs low enough that you can still make a profit off of 250-300k players. You really cant do that with a $300 million debt and a IP that you don't own.

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20562

4/02/13 12:47:19 PM#129
Originally posted by ClaudeSuamOram
 

*See SWTOR* $300 million squandered...that could of MADE that MMORPG osiriszoren spoke of.

TOR seems to do well after going F2P. Sub is up. 2M new players joined. And a new expansion is coming.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20562

4/02/13 12:53:04 PM#130
Originally posted by osiriszoran
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by osiriszoran
 

I think the open air dungeons are more for the people who want that sense of danger and excitement that comes with player interaction in the form of grouping to prevent pvp or to start pvp.  Alot of funtimes and interesting drama can be started by controlling/fighting over a dungeon and can lead to a sense of great accomplishment.

But not everyone like PvP in their dungeon crawl. In fact, most people are on pve servers with no open pvp.

And i also don't see why you need a open air dungeon to do what you just said .. a instanced pvp dungeon with both pvp opponent and NPC bosses can do the same.

Because you want to keep a MMORPG as open as possible. People who dont like pvp in their dungeon crawl can do the dungeons with instances, but if they want to get whatever is on the outdoor dungeon boss they better be willing to fight for it. Thats called appealing to both pvpers and pvers.

Why? MMORPG are games .. which gameplay experience is important. There is no inherent reason to keep things "as open as possible". And who says pvpers and pvers wants their pvp & pve mixed.

You can appeal to both simply by having Pve Instances, and pvp instances. WOW is doing a good job of that. If you think mixing them up should be popular, then most people would want to be on a pvp server doing world boss, and as we know world boss & pvp servers are not that popular.

  JimmyYO

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/13/11
Posts: 541

4/02/13 12:56:13 PM#131
Originally posted by Lonzo

Why all these Quest games? With leveling by questing you are limited to just ONE way of leveling. Back in the days with EQ there where leveling groups everywhere in every dungeon and in every zone. It was just good old dungeon crawling. And the few quests seem very important and meaningful....

 

I miss those days...

Agreed, I feel like I'm the only one that just wants to wander around and kill stuff to advance. Every game is all linear questing now and it's a borefest by comparison.

  ragz45

Novice Member

Joined: 5/01/08
Posts: 482

4/02/13 12:56:32 PM#132
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by ClaudeSuamOram
 

*See SWTOR* $300 million squandered...that could of MADE that MMORPG osiriszoren spoke of.

TOR seems to do well after going F2P. Sub is up. 2M new players joined. And a new expansion is coming.

All of the content TOR has released up to this point (including the expac) was developed before the game even launched.  We have now reached the point where they no longer have any pre-developed content, so TOR has reached a breaking point.  

Either F2P has given it enough life to move forward & start to delvelop new content.  Or the game will start to swirl the toilet bowl.  Only time will tell which direction it will take.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20562

4/02/13 1:57:07 PM#133
Originally posted by ragz45
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by ClaudeSuamOram
 

*See SWTOR* $300 million squandered...that could of MADE that MMORPG osiriszoren spoke of.

TOR seems to do well after going F2P. Sub is up. 2M new players joined. And a new expansion is coming.

All of the content TOR has released up to this point (including the expac) was developed before the game even launched.  We have now reached the point where they no longer have any pre-developed content, so TOR has reached a breaking point.  

Either F2P has given it enough life to move forward & start to delvelop new content.  Or the game will start to swirl the toilet bowl.  Only time will tell which direction it will take.

At least subs of the game is up. We shall see. They claim to be the second biggest sub game now. I bet they are way bigger than Eve now.

  Arclan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/29/07
Posts: 1443

"Ideas are worthless. The only currency that holds any weight is the ability and drive to execute."

4/03/13 11:22:20 AM#134

Two million subs in a F2P game means little more than higher bandwidth costs for the game company.


The game is heavily advertised in stores and on the internet; other than WoW it is the ONLY heavily advertised MMO in existence. There is a sucker born every minute. Of course millions are doing the free trial. Advertising pays; something SOE never got into their thick skull.


Once the current crop of suckers is exhausted, they can only hope their efforts have chipped away at that $200mil development cost.

Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
video game company layoffs are twice the national average.

  KaosProphet

Novice Member

Joined: 8/31/12
Posts: 384

4/03/13 11:29:06 AM#135
Originally posted by JimmyYO
Originally posted by Lonzo

Why all these Quest games? With leveling by questing you are limited to just ONE way of leveling. Back in the days with EQ there where leveling groups everywhere in every dungeon and in every zone. It was just good old dungeon crawling. And the few quests seem very important and meaningful....

 

I miss those days...

Agreed, I feel like I'm the only one that just wants to wander around and kill stuff to advance. Every game is all linear questing now and it's a borefest by comparison.

I *still* like Eve's system the best. 

I was skeptical of it at first, and it's not without it's flaws;  but it really does wonders for taking the 'railroad' feel out of advancement and freeing you up to enjoy the rest of the game.  You can literally just wander around even doing absolutely nothing but seeing the sights if that's what floats your boat, without worrying that you're falling behind on the levelling game.

  KaosProphet

Novice Member

Joined: 8/31/12
Posts: 384

4/03/13 11:35:00 AM#136
Originally posted by GreenHell

*snip*
*See SWTOR* $300 million squandered...that could of MADE that MMORPG osiriszoren spoke of.

It would take a lot more than just money to make that game. Do you really think EA/BW would be up to that challenge?

The Bioware that made Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights, I believe would have been up to that challenge.

The current incarnation, I'm not so sure of.

  tupodawg999

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 623

4/04/13 12:28:08 AM#137
Originally posted by Lonzo

And the few quests seem very important and meaningful....

 

EQ had/has 1000s of quests but 95% have a really bad cost/benefit - mostly the time it takes to get the quest reward is longer than it takes to get something better - so people only did the few that were ok so over time it seemed there were only a few.

 

What i'd like is EQ style zones with lots of different areas with different levelled mobs to grind on *and* lots of EQ style optional quests that you could do if you wanted the reward but this time not designed by angry sadists.

 

The more i play EQ again after playing so many other games since the more i think the basic design of EQ was sound and most of the problems with it were to do with the original difficulty* setting being about 20% too high for the zones and about 30% too high for most of the quests - especially the low level ones.

 

*difficulty including mob difficulty but also things like rare spawns, rare drops etc i.e. things taking three hours that should have just been one.

  itchmon

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/21/07
Posts: 1614

4/04/13 12:34:42 AM#138
Originally posted by Quirhid
Mindless grind and spawncamping? -No thank you.

is there really that much of a difference between

 

" i need to kill 40 monsters to level-up"

 

vs

 

"that guy with the mark over his head said to kill these 40 monsters, and i'll level-up"

RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.

Currently Playing EVE, DFUW

Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.

Dwight D Eisenhower

My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.

Henry Rollins

  Jemcrystal

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/02/08
Posts: 1380

Let em put a slave ring thru u're nose u're prob not going to like where they're taking you. Think.

4/04/13 12:41:02 AM#139
I dont' want to quest or grind anymore.  I want someone to make a creative game with genetic coding in it.  Games will not advance until the system their played on does.  PvP and PvE needs to be kept completely separated.  So when the PvP whine they wont change my game or gimp my char.

Next time if they ask your name tell them "Your Overlord." There's nothing more satisfying than an Arby's employee repeatedly yelling over the munching masses, "Your Overlord's classic cheddar is up!!!"

  Vunak23

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/27/10
Posts: 660

In your house Eatin' your Cookies!

4/04/13 12:52:23 AM#140
Give me back the old school grind over these quests any day. The grinding wasn't about the grind or the progression to endgame (yes grand scheme it was on everyones to do list). It was about grouping up with random people/friends and simply enjoying each others company. Back in the grinding days my friends list was always overflowing. But in todays MMO's people hardly talk at all. Interaction between players is at a minimum... I would rather interact with other people than the stupid yellow exclamation point over a NPC's head. 

"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then we’ve got another one that is actually going to be – so we’re going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what we’re targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you can’t hold me to it. But what we’re targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo

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