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260 posts found
  Aelious

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2294

World > Quest Progression

4/08/13 11:42:03 AM#241
There has been a huge influx of MMO players after the "WoW age" had begun (lol, there's no end in phrases for it). So for a lot of them it's all the exposure they've had since mainstream MMOs have lost their "all for one" feeling.

Once a new title(s) come out with more emphasis on everyone we'll see how many will enjoy it. I think it's naive to assume people choose something of it's all they have known.
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19137

4/08/13 11:59:21 AM#242
Originally posted by Aelious


Once a new title(s) come out with more emphasis on everyone we'll see how many will enjoy it. I think it's naive to assume people choose something of it's all they have known.

Didn't people choose EQ over UO by a huge margin? (hence we know open pvp is not popualr).

Didn't people choose WOW or EQ/EQ2 by a huge margin? (hence we know the problems in EQ needs to be fixed).

 

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4688

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

4/08/13 12:04:01 PM#243
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Aelious


Once a new title(s) come out with more emphasis on everyone we'll see how many will enjoy it. I think it's naive to assume people choose something of it's all they have known.

Didn't people choose EQ over UO by a huge margin? (hence we know open pvp is not popualr).

Didn't people choose WOW or EQ/EQ2 by a huge margin? (hence we know the problems in EQ needs to be fixed).

 

 Well that is the debate isn't it (not so much in IMO) how many people from the EQ, DAOC, UO, AO... generation left those games for WoW.  IMO the majority of their population left the game for WoW however other people say they didn't they just left the genre and WoW's success is due to new people. 

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Aelious

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2294

World > Quest Progression

4/08/13 12:30:49 PM#244
If someone can provide numbers to back up that x amount of people left EQ/UO for WoW that would be great. I'm sure there were plenty of people considering Warcraft was a hugely popular franchise even back then. Just how many and for what reasons would remain speculation. Also, WoW was a different kind of game back then, right?

Speaking of speculation and assumption just because people left EQ for WoW back towards '04 does not point to any speculation for right now. Players would have been exposed to the same model featured in various titles, something not seen back then.
  psiic

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/03/09
Posts: 550

4/08/13 12:36:50 PM#245
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Aelious


Once a new title(s) come out with more emphasis on everyone we'll see how many will enjoy it. I think it's naive to assume people choose something of it's all they have known.

Didn't people choose EQ over UO by a huge margin? (hence we know open pvp is not popualr).

Didn't people choose WOW or EQ/EQ2 by a huge margin? (hence we know the problems in EQ needs to be fixed).

 

 Well that is the debate isn't it (not so much in IMO) how many people from the EQ, DAOC, UO, AO... generation left those games for WoW.  IMO the majority of their population left the game for WoW however other people say they didn't they just left the genre and WoW's success is due to new people. 

I  consider myself  a first generation gamer. I did walk away from UO over some GM BS, but I am still in a fairly active EQ guild.. 14+ years now and counting.

 

I did play WoW for a couple of months but found the game to be concieved and designed for morons and idiots too stupid or lazy to think for themselves, basically " gamer wannabes " not real gamers. Hence why it was so popular and had so much success.

Oh and on your list there you forgot one of the best real gamer games of all time AC ( Ascheron's Call ). And I am not real sure I would consider AO and DAoC a real first generation MMO they were kinda like a 1.5 generation.

 

 

 

  Malinkadink

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/19/11
Posts: 77

"When you put good will out there it's amazing what can be accomplished." -PW

4/08/13 12:50:58 PM#246
Originally posted by psiic
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Aelious


Once a new title(s) come out with more emphasis on everyone we'll see how many will enjoy it. I think it's naive to assume people choose something of it's all they have known.

Didn't people choose EQ over UO by a huge margin? (hence we know open pvp is not popualr).

Didn't people choose WOW or EQ/EQ2 by a huge margin? (hence we know the problems in EQ needs to be fixed).

 

 Well that is the debate isn't it (not so much in IMO) how many people from the EQ, DAOC, UO, AO... generation left those games for WoW.  IMO the majority of their population left the game for WoW however other people say they didn't they just left the genre and WoW's success is due to new people. 

I  consider myself  a first generation gamer. I did walk away from UO over some GM BS, but I am still in a fairly active EQ guild.. 14+ years now and counting.

 

I did play WoW for a couple of months but found the game to be concieved and designed for morons and idiots too stupid or lazy to think for themselves, basically " gamer wannabes " not real gamers. Hence why it was so popular and had so much success.

Oh and on your list there you forgot one of the best real gamer games of all time AC ( Ascheron's Call ). And I am not real sure I would consider AO and DAoC a real first generation MMO they were kinda like a 1.5 generation.

 

 

 

I really can't see how you can justify the hate towards WoW. I didnt directly play EQ but saw my older cousin play it a lot and i enjoyed that, if i was around teen years like him when it came out i probably would have played it as well. However, fate had it that i start my MMORPG history with WoW. Well sort of, originally i played Runescape if that counts, but WoW was the big one. I started playing it late Vanilla, so more or less i experienced it from TBC up until Cata launch when i left. It was a great game, amazing lore, and just fun, which is what matters. Who cares if its a bit on the easy side, it had some difficult content, and there was always someone who could pose a challenge to you in pvp being as unbalanced as it may have been at certain points. 

At this point WoW is dead to me because its lost its luster, its old, and i've moved on, but i can still honestly say i had a great experience with it, which has yet to happen again with something newer. 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19137

4/08/13 1:13:34 PM#247
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

 

 Well that is the debate isn't it (not so much in IMO) how many people from the EQ, DAOC, UO, AO... generation left those games for WoW.  IMO the majority of their population left the game for WoW however other people say they didn't they just left the genre and WoW's success is due to new people. 

Unfortunately this kind of data is hard to come by.

Personally, I played UO beta (hate it, bad game), EQ for a year, and WOW for multiple years. So count me as one.

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 6752

4/08/13 2:13:51 PM#248


Originally posted by Scot

If you want a good analogy of MMO's selling more but getting worse, there is our old favourite fast food. I know you modern MMO apologists love that one! :)

As for your model T, nice choice, what about a Rolls Royce Silver Shadow? How does that compare to modern cars? I will give you that modern cars are safer, as are modern MMO’s. That was a link to the thread on how we have no danger in modern MMO’s in case I was being too obtuse. Less danger in a car is good, but less danger in a game?

Here is another, mass produced goods. That’s what all these analogies boil down to. There is a reason why antiques cost so much, the quality is so much better. You may not like that old style, but it took a lot more craftsmanship than that flat pack you put up at home. But if you want to sit in your minimalist home, on a stool that passes for a chair and tell us that making games for the lowest common denominator to sell as many boxes as possible is going to result in better gaming quality, then do carry on.


So many fallacies in single post. Sadly same fallacies keep repeating over these boards over and over...

1) Better =/= better quality. Those are 2 different things.

Product may be overall better and preferred more, despite being lower quality.


2) There is no such thing as "quality" when it comes to entertainment.

There is no quality, there is taste. Taste changes over time and so do change the qualifiers.


3) Antiques do not cost more because they are better "quality" or because they are old, they cost more because they are rare and/or unique - that includes branded products.

Just because something is handcrafted does not make it better than something mass produced. Quality, the objective one, is just a single attribute among many that contributes to product value.


4) More sales means better product since it is the people speaking with their wallets.

You might not like what other people do but that does not make it inferior product, it makes it only a product that is not your taste.

  Volkon

Novice Member

Joined: 9/14/10
Posts: 3813

Facts do not require fiction for balance.

4/08/13 2:18:21 PM#249
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


4) More sales means better product since it is the people speaking with their wallets.

You might not like what other people do but that does not make it inferior product, it makes it only a product that is not your taste.

 

Billions of McDonald's burgers sold.

Oderint, dum metuant.

  Xthos

Elite Member

Joined: 4/18/10
Posts: 2623

4/08/13 2:23:36 PM#250
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Aelious


Once a new title(s) come out with more emphasis on everyone we'll see how many will enjoy it. I think it's naive to assume people choose something of it's all they have known.

Didn't people choose EQ over UO by a huge margin? (hence we know open pvp is not popualr).

Didn't people choose WOW or EQ/EQ2 by a huge margin? (hence we know the problems in EQ needs to be fixed).

 

Well, going back to someone that was actually playing UO at the time and switched to EQ....UO had a LOT of server problems at the time, they double the size of their world, and had severe lag/rubberbanding that made the game almost unplayable for a bit....So they made it easy for someone to try the new shiney, and mmos were newer and the technology was a learning as you go thing, so I cannot kill them for having these problems.

 

Their are factors in everything, but in large, yes, people prefer non-open pvp, but that does not mean their is not a market for open-pvp, or more limited to non-existant pvp sandbox type games. 

 

I think it would be fair to say that people and developers are seeing the merit in more sandbox type play, and making more hybrid type games, that are releasing and in the development cycle, along with more that are closer to sandbox.

 

People are chewing through the railed themepark content too fast.  So you are seeing tools to make your own stuff, and a shift in style for a lot of the stuff in the cycle.

  Tierless

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/01/08
Posts: 2089

joie de vivre

4/08/13 2:29:33 PM#251

I don't think I remember a game style with as much doomsaying as MMOs. It seems like as soon as the first on hit a million subs the genre was dying. I don't think it's dying. It's just appealing to the wrong fanbase. Really, them dying a bit and becoming less main stream means we will lose the bandwagoners and get back to being a niche that companies make niche MMOs for which I view as a very good thing.

mmorpg.com/blogs/Xobdnas

  Xthos

Elite Member

Joined: 4/18/10
Posts: 2623

4/08/13 2:31:01 PM#252
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

 

 Well that is the debate isn't it (not so much in IMO) how many people from the EQ, DAOC, UO, AO... generation left those games for WoW.  IMO the majority of their population left the game for WoW however other people say they didn't they just left the genre and WoW's success is due to new people. 

Unfortunately this kind of data is hard to come by.

Personally, I played UO beta (hate it, bad game), EQ for a year, and WOW for multiple years. So count me as one.

I played UO, and EQ for probably 6-8 years each total, tried WoW in beta and didn't hate it, but it felt like a mash of wanting to be DAoC with the two factions, but without much of a purpose in beta, and a direction of EQ on steriods (a direction I wasn't a huge fan of, the later content)....So it was kind of meh to me at the time. 

 

I think WoW was easy for people to get into, people with computers and internet connections were soaring, and it was like a perfect storm that they were smart and rolled with.  EQ2 was too prohibitive, the computer needed to play it properly was way above what was needed for WoW, and the mechanics were less new mmo player friendly imo.  So it was a perfect storm for them, and to their credit they didn't drop the ball to grow the game....Which left a lot of 'Vanilla WoW' people that disliked the newer direction, but they grew the game for mass appeal.

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19137

4/08/13 2:57:09 PM#253
Originally posted by Xthos
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

 

 Well that is the debate isn't it (not so much in IMO) how many people from the EQ, DAOC, UO, AO... generation left those games for WoW.  IMO the majority of their population left the game for WoW however other people say they didn't they just left the genre and WoW's success is due to new people. 

Unfortunately this kind of data is hard to come by.

Personally, I played UO beta (hate it, bad game), EQ for a year, and WOW for multiple years. So count me as one.

I played UO, and EQ for probably 6-8 years each total, tried WoW in beta and didn't hate it, but it felt like a mash of wanting to be DAoC with the two factions, but without much of a purpose in beta, and a direction of EQ on steriods (a direction I wasn't a huge fan of, the later content)....So it was kind of meh to me at the time. 

 

I think WoW was easy for people to get into, people with computers and internet connections were soaring, and it was like a perfect storm that they were smart and rolled with.  EQ2 was too prohibitive, the computer needed to play it properly was way above what was needed for WoW, and the mechanics were less new mmo player friendly imo.  So it was a perfect storm for them, and to their credit they didn't drop the ball to grow the game....Which left a lot of 'Vanilla WoW' people that disliked the newer direction, but they grew the game for mass appeal.

 

Mass appeal is not a bad thing. The issue with UO & EQ is that they are not very fun games to me. UO allows others to make the game extremely aggravating. EQ (at least in the beginning) requires long stretch of boring time.

WOW solves all these problems for me, and i reward it with years of subs.

  Drakynn

Novice Member

Joined: 3/02/08
Posts: 2051

4/08/13 3:00:09 PM#254
Cries of MMO doom on these forums are second only to pronouncement of the death of PC gaming which has been declared most years since the 90s.
  psiic

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/03/09
Posts: 550

4/08/13 11:21:30 PM#255
Originally posted by Malinkadink
Originally posted by psiic
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Aelious


Once a new title(s) come out with more emphasis on everyone we'll see how many will enjoy it. I think it's naive to assume people choose something of it's all they have known.

Didn't people choose EQ over UO by a huge margin? (hence we know open pvp is not popualr).

Didn't people choose WOW or EQ/EQ2 by a huge margin? (hence we know the problems in EQ needs to be fixed).

 

 Well that is the debate isn't it (not so much in IMO) how many people from the EQ, DAOC, UO, AO... generation left those games for WoW.  IMO the majority of their population left the game for WoW however other people say they didn't they just left the genre and WoW's success is due to new people. 

I  consider myself  a first generation gamer. I did walk away from UO over some GM BS, but I am still in a fairly active EQ guild.. 14+ years now and counting.

 

I did play WoW for a couple of months but found the game to be concieved and designed for morons and idiots too stupid or lazy to think for themselves, basically " gamer wannabes " not real gamers. Hence why it was so popular and had so much success.

Oh and on your list there you forgot one of the best real gamer games of all time AC ( Ascheron's Call ). And I am not real sure I would consider AO and DAoC a real first generation MMO they were kinda like a 1.5 generation.

 

 

 

I really can't see how you can justify the hate towards WoW. I didnt directly play EQ but saw my older cousin play it a lot and i enjoyed that, if i was around teen years like him when it came out i probably would have played it as well. However, fate had it that i start my MMORPG history with WoW. Well sort of, originally i played Runescape if that counts, but WoW was the big one. I started playing it late Vanilla, so more or less i experienced it from TBC up until Cata launch when i left. It was a great game, amazing lore, and just fun, which is what matters. Who cares if its a bit on the easy side, it had some difficult content, and there was always someone who could pose a challenge to you in pvp being as unbalanced as it may have been at certain points. 

At this point WoW is dead to me because its lost its luster, its old, and i've moved on, but i can still honestly say i had a great experience with it, which has yet to happen again with something newer. 

 

I played WoW back before they added diminishing returns and had this really nice guy hold me as a sheep for 18 hours.

 

I tried logging off and playing an alt for an hour, logging off and watching a movie for 2 hours, but everytime I logged back in he was standing there waiting to resheep me. 

Upon contacting a GM the GM actually laughed at me and told me so sad too bad that's part of the game mechanic.

Did not matter than some 12 year old asshat was intentionally just sitting there to deliberately ruin my gaming enjoyment, but that the GM would outright laugh about it. 

But anyway that was just one of the many pisspoor experiences I had with the WoW community and Customer Support.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19137

4/09/13 11:09:05 AM#256
Originally posted by Drakynn
Cries of MMO doom on these forums are second only to pronouncement of the death of PC gaming which has been declared most years since the 90s.

People can pronounce anything. And they probably won't stop even when the opposite evidence is right there staring them in their face.

  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5095

4/10/13 3:28:07 AM#257
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Drakynn
Cries of MMO doom on these forums are second only to pronouncement of the death of PC gaming which has been declared most years since the 90s.

People can pronounce anything. And they probably won't stop even when the opposite evidence is right there staring them in their face.

 

 

Ok so now you are going to be telling us that the PC market is as vibrant as it was in the 90's? You are going to ignore the boom in consoles? We are expected to ignore the effect of Microsoft creating a gaming console? Microsoft wanted to have their cake and eat it. The result was they set up a console in competition to Windows PC's. Rather than support the PC format with Microsoft Games, they wanted it all, and PC games sales suffered as a result.

We are also expected to ignore the rise of games on mobile and tablet platforms? We really are being expected to stick are head in the sand for this one.

Of course PC gaming was not going to die, but it has been beset by competitors. It has even had the company that makes its OS set up gaming competition against it. PC gaming has weathered the storm, but it is a storm that is still growing, I see no doom ahead but these are tough times for the PC.

When it comes to MMOs, there is no coming doom. We have already gone past that and now have games which masquerade as MMO's. MMO's died some years ago, welcome to the new generation of easyMMO's. 

  meilirs

Novice Member

Joined: 3/06/11
Posts: 31

4/10/13 5:21:53 AM#258

Yeah, I agree with most of the people on this thread. MMOs are evolving but I think this is a good thing. Five years from now people will probably be playing on their mobile devices with in-game voice chat. Maybe ten years from now we will have virtual reality helmets with multiplayer online gaming.

I hope there will be more sandbox games, too. Minecraft was a big success so I expect someone will be making an MMO like it pretty soon, that is if they aren't already doing that.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19137

4/10/13 8:59:20 AM#259
Originally posted by Scot

Of course PC gaming was not going to die, but it has been beset by competitors. It has even had the company that makes its OS set up gaming competition against it. PC gaming has weathered the storm, but it is a storm that is still growing, I see no doom ahead but these are tough times for the PC.

When it comes to MMOs, there is no coming doom. We have already gone past that and now have games which masquerade as MMO's. MMO's died some years ago, welcome to the new generation of easyMMO's. 

Then those proclaim PC gaming was going to die ... was wrong with a big "i told you so". So what if there are competitors. All entertainment has competitor since the dawn of entertainment. Movies, novels, sports ... are all competitors for your time and money.

And if you don't like the modern MMO, that is your problem ... but it is dead? A multi-billion dollar industry? Your definitino of dead is just ... meaningless.

  Phelcher

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/01/09
Posts: 1133

4/10/13 11:24:17 AM#260
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Aelious


Once a new title(s) come out with more emphasis on everyone we'll see how many will enjoy it. I think it's naive to assume people choose something of it's all they have known.

Didn't people choose EQ over UO by a huge margin? (hence we know open pvp is not popualr).

Didn't people choose WOW or EQ/EQ2 by a huge margin? (hence we know the problems in EQ needs to be fixed).

 

 

 

No, people didn't choose.... time did.

 

I beta tested & played UO for 2 years...  during my UO play time, I spend alot of time away from my guild, because I was beta testing a new 3d game, called Everquest.

Which on March 16th 1999 me and about 200 of my guildmates moved to. 5 years later in 2004 EQ2 comes out and of-coarse, even all EQ players bought and tried it out. EQ2 actually fractured the EQ guilds as EQ was a much better game, but old animations, old graphics...  where EQ2 had frsh world, state-of-the-art graphics & animations & particle effects, etc.

 

It was not until 2005+ that WoW took off & for good reason... and the exact reason your data is always skewed and corrupt... is that millions of new people entered the internet online gaming because dial-up was gone and always-on internet allowed kids to filter unabashedly onto the internet, thus internet gaming.

And what moAr-better avenue, than a quirky & unending game called World of Warcraft.

 

These people didn't choose anything, they were newcommers in the expanding market and Blizzard's commercials and a FISHER PRICE atmoshphere allowed World of Warcraft to skyrocket to 10 millions subs. But most forget that 3.8 million of them were children under the age of 17.

The core 2 million "oldschoolers" at the time of EQ2/WoW's simulataneous birth...  are still around and grew too. But overshadowed by children & young adults who found the internet gaming via WoW...  but want more arcade, less thought & the INDUSTRY reacted to child/kid segment of the market.

Narius thinks that that segment^   ..is..  the whole industry & why he thinks "the whole industry" is going towards kid arcade games.

 

When in fact, the median age of WoW was 27 at it's peak... so knowing that 3.8m were adolecent kids, means a majority were @ , or older than 28...   who are now 37+ years of age. 

 

 

Understand, even those children that played WoW who where 11~15yr old, are now 19~24yrs old. It mainly these peeps who found RIFT & AION and CONAN to be wounderful..  because their numbers grew & grew.

I remember a local paper did a story on how two high school gangs settle a dispute "gang style" online within WoW. My twin nieces had their WoW's character, characturized in airbrush on shirts they use to wear..

She's grown up now & engaged...      

 

 

 

So Narius...   your skewed sense of why people left UO is unfounded, only that you can read data and see subs shift..  the problem is..  u don't know why, or what... I do. Some people have been in the trenches since Wizardry & havn't stop'd.

This type of trolling ur doing has to end...  (*)   

 

 

(* people moved to eq2 because it was 5 years newer, just like people will be moving to the PS4 & Xbox 720 later this year... because it is a newer platform. Anyone who isn't trying to skew some facts know this and understand natural progression, regardless of "clissic" play.)

 

 

"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."


-Nariusseldon

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