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83 posts found
  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12101

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

3/28/13 11:54:48 AM#41
Originally posted by GGrimm
I think everyone wants to have there be consequences in an MMO, without them any achievement is hollow.

While I agree on the second part, I am not so sure about the first part. I don't think everyone is playing for achievement. Some are playing for collection, and risk/consequence can sometimes be perceived as in the way of that playstyle.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fovoroth

  Hedeon

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/27/05
Posts: 907

3/28/13 11:56:46 AM#42

have never felt any kind of fright in a MMO, may have got suprised once or twice in singleplayer games though - no matter what death penalty there have been in a MMO, Ive never felt in danger, in any way, not even in EvE when got shot down in an expensive ship - not to say Ive not been abit meh over it, since it takes awhile to farm the isk for me....but scared no.

in EQ2 it always baffled me that people would react much on dieing, so you had a minute to wait before going again, who cares about a minute or 2 - if time were that important to a person, they shouldnt play a MMO since you d never have the patience for other peoples screw ups then.

either way in the end I never felt danger in a MMO, and wouldnt really care about soul runs, other than I like the idea of an extra task....right up untill all that happens is people log off untill they got it back.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19463

3/28/13 12:03:59 PM#43
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by GGrimm
I think everyone wants to have there be consequences in an MMO, without them any achievement is hollow.

While I agree on the second part, I am not so sure about the first part. I don't think everyone is playing for achievement. Some are playing for collection, and risk/consequence can sometimes be perceived as in the way of that playstyle.

1) acheivement in a game is an illusion.

2) You don't need any death penalty for the epleen kind of achievemnt. Just look at world first hard mode raid kills. or look at Diabloprogress, or wow-hero, or gear score. People can "feel" the illusion of achievement in many ways.

  RajCaj

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/11/08
Posts: 684

3/28/13 12:22:54 PM#44

Of course there has been a lack of "danger" in modern MMORPGs (and games in general).  It's by design....as to appeal to a larger audience of casual gamers.

 

It comes down to the player's objective, in terms of what they are looking to get out of the gaming experience. 

Traditional MMORPGs were known for more of a "hard knocks" style of game play, with a niche audience attracted to a game that provided that level of challenge & adreneline rush.  I remember my heart thumping out of my chest, with sweaty arm pits during PvP & high level PvE encounters playing Ultima Online.  Why?  Because of what was on the line.....IE high consequence for failure.

 

This, obviously, turned off many gamers that tried their hand at MMOs, and relegated the genere to a very specific type of gamer.  Modern MMORPGs, with huge capital investments by huge publishers, have purposly changed the MMO gaming experience to be less punative, in effort hold on to as many gamers as possible....and recoup their investment.  Casual gamers don't have the time to farm or recoup from a devestating loss in battle, so instead of losing all your gear at death....you just have to take a short walk back to your body.  They aren't looking for an adreneline rush....but a shiney piece of gear or a biscut for completing a task....as sense of progression.

  TwoThreeFour

Novice Member

Joined: 3/26/12
Posts: 2148

3/28/13 12:28:56 PM#45
Originally posted by rojo6934
After playing Dark Souls everything else is a walk to the park. I love GW2 and cant wait for all these new things, but if New Dangers dont mean that kind of danger then its not really a big deal.

 

I very much agree with your sentiment. 

  RajCaj

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/11/08
Posts: 684

3/28/13 12:30:05 PM#46
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by GGrimm
I think everyone wants to have there be consequences in an MMO, without them any achievement is hollow.

While I agree on the second part, I am not so sure about the first part. I don't think everyone is playing for achievement. Some are playing for collection, and risk/consequence can sometimes be perceived as in the way of that playstyle.

1) acheivement in a game is an illusion.

2) You don't need any death penalty for the epleen kind of achievemnt. Just look at world first hard mode raid kills. or look at Diabloprogress, or wow-hero, or gear score. People can "feel" the illusion of achievement in many ways.

1) Of course it's an illusion...so is the entire game, if you're going to take it to that phylisophical level.  That said, people that typically get into MMOs are a willing acomplice of this illusion.  These folks usually have an easier time suspending disbelief and accept the illusion whole sale.  So if perception is reality....then for these folks, the illusion is real.

 

2) The degree of difficulty in heroics, raids, accumulating gear scores are more of logistical challenges...not so much difficulty of the encounter itself.  Heroics are harder because the NPCs have more HP / MP, and deal more damage (with a few additional gimmicks).  Getting a high gear score is hard because of the time invested & social network needed to have access to the gear that provides the high score.  Not because of the need to be perfect in execution...else lose your arse.

 

Different degrees of dificulty...

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3039

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

3/28/13 12:50:33 PM#47


Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by GGrimm
I think everyone wants to have there be consequences in an MMO, without them any achievement is hollow.

While I agree on the second part, I am not so sure about the first part. I don't think everyone is playing for achievement. Some are playing for collection, and risk/consequence can sometimes be perceived as in the way of that playstyle.

1) acheivement in a game is an illusion.

2) You don't need any death penalty for the epleen kind of achievemnt. Just look at world first hard mode raid kills. or look at Diabloprogress, or wow-hero, or gear score. People can "feel" the illusion of achievement in many ways.



You mean *sniff* my character did NOT beat that *sniff* monster senseless? He really did *sniff sniff* not ding level 4? That *sniff* last achievement award turned to *sniff* dust in his hands?

Number 2 I totally agree with :)

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  fs23otm

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/11/07
Posts: 258

3/28/13 12:54:33 PM#48

 

Original Resident Evil... walking down the 2nd hallway where the dead dogs bust through the windows.... no game has ever made me pause and take a break from playing since then.

  RajCaj

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/11/08
Posts: 684

3/28/13 12:55:42 PM#49
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by GGrimm
I think everyone wants to have there be consequences in an MMO, without them any achievement is hollow.

While I agree on the second part, I am not so sure about the first part. I don't think everyone is playing for achievement. Some are playing for collection, and risk/consequence can sometimes be perceived as in the way of that playstyle.

Very true...

 

Some people play MMOs for a sense of escapisim, fully committing to the "illusion", and immersing themselves in the virtual world.  At this point, the experiences in the game feel more "real"....hence the adreneline rushes one gets in a high consequence battle in the game that they would normally get in real life running away from an attacker.

 

For others, its all about pulling the leaver on the slot machine for an expected stimulus.

 

The reason we've seen more games catering to the latter is because there is a larger audience that is looking for that kind of experience vs. gamers wanting a fantasy environment with real life experiences.

  Waterlily

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/26/08
Posts: 2885

3/28/13 12:56:43 PM#50
Originally posted by BigHatLogan

 

I never played EQ1, but i heard horror stories from players that certainly sounded like they felt fear.  Perhaps due to xp loss penalties and impossible corpse runs. 

 

Basically if you died in EQ you left a corpse behind with all your gear and items on it and you were kicked to your bind spot which could be hours away from where you died. You were naked, literally. You also lost a substantial amount of XP, often losing your current level.

You weren't an invulnerable ghost like in WoW, you were just a regular player but now naked and all your belongins were somewhere far away out of reach.

There was also a danger of being new to a zone and not exactly knowing where you died anymore. Mobs did not unleash like in new games, they would follow you for miles, you would often have no clue where you died.

What happened to a group who died or a single player who died is that they often needed help, imagine dying next to lvl 40 mobs, now you are basically screwed, how are you going to get your corpse back naked. You need assistance and you need to reach out to people in the zone and make contact with people and notify everyone you need help. You needed necromancers to run to you to that zone to summon your corpse away, or other groups to clear a path for you or IVU buffs to keep you invisible (but this was risky since invisibility is not stable in EQ), basically you needed help.

Result = community organisation, discussions, friends

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19463

3/28/13 1:01:31 PM#51
Originally posted by RajCaj

1) acheivement in a game is an illusion.

2) You don't need any death penalty for the epleen kind of achievemnt. Just look at world first hard mode raid kills. or look at Diabloprogress, or wow-hero, or gear score. People can "feel" the illusion of achievement in many ways.

1) Of course it's an illusion...so is the entire game, if you're going to take it to that phylisophical level.  That said, people that typically get into MMOs are a willing acomplice of this illusion.  These folks usually have an easier time suspending disbelief and accept the illusion whole sale.  So if perception is reality....then for these folks, the illusion is real.

 But it means that you don't need real challenges of harsh consequences to maintain the illusion. There are many psychological tricks to do that. In fact, the proof is in what is happening ... most games don't have harsh consequences .. and people still hook onto progression.

2) The degree of difficulty in heroics, raids, accumulating gear scores are more of logistical challenges...not so much difficulty of the encounter itself.  Heroics are harder because the NPCs have more HP / MP, and deal more damage (with a few additional gimmicks).  Getting a high gear score is hard because of the time invested & social network needed to have access to the gear that provides the high score.  Not because of the need to be perfect in execution...else lose your arse.

Not in defeating bosses. Look at world first. Not many guilds have players good enough to do hard mode raids. That is not logistical. But the point is this ... the illusion is easily maintained. Gearscore is very popualr and effective .. and you don't need any real consequences in gameplay to use that as a way to make the achievement illusion.

Look at the popularity of wow-progress, diabloprogress .. and website like that.

 

Different degrees of dificulty...

 

  Disdena

Novice Member

Joined: 3/05/10
Posts: 1098

3/28/13 1:11:42 PM#52

*dons Psychology Major cap*

The primary motivation for playing is to experience things that you can't experience in the real world, either because they're not possible or because there is some prohibitive cost or risk. There are many ways that video games try to appeal to gamers. If you want the fantasy of living a magic-wielding hero's life, they can give you that (even though it's impossible in real life). If you want to explore an unknown place, they can give you that (even though it's expensive and risky in real life). If you want an arena where you can prove that you're superior to your peers, they can give you that (even though it's risky in real life).

A game can take the place of a risky real life situation. And the danger you experience in a game is a substitute for the excitement you would feel from being in such a situation in real life. But the danger is an illusion. That is the whole point of a game. You try, you hope, you sweat, you panic, you frantically push buttons... but you fail! And you sit back and realize it was just a game. It's like watching an intense movie. No matter how wrapped up you get in it and how much anxiety and stress you feel over what the characters are going through, you are always just one head-turn away from stepping out of the experience and seeing the film for the illusion that it is.

Wanting the risk of "real" loss (as in, substantial loss of virtual items that have a real value in dollars or hours spent) in a game misses the function of a game. The point of a game is to provide an experience without that real-life risk. If you want danger and risk, gamble! Skydive! Day trade! Kickbox! Join the Marines! Start your own business! Move to Darfur! Life is full of rewarding things that have risks attached. If you want to experience danger and you're not satisfied with the illusion of danger in a game, take that as a hint that you can step away from the keyboard and find danger in real life.

  BigHatLogan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/09/06
Posts: 695

 
OP  3/28/13 1:27:05 PM#53

I tend to get the shakes when fighting in EVE, even if i am just in some crappy frig.  The most terror I think i have ever felt in a video game was fighting those damn curse frogs in Dark Souls.  Why?  Because not only did they one shot you if you didn't kill them quick, they also cursed you so you would spawn with a 50% drop in maximum health in addition to other penalties. 

 

Not every game needs to have permadeath, other death penalties such as loss of gear or experience loss penalties can also be effective.  One thing that is important is that each game needs to be designed around a specific death penalty.  If WoW had permadeath or full player looting well that probably wouldn't go over too well considering how much time it takes to get gear in that accursed game.  A game like DayZ has permadeath but it is also designed around permadeath.  You don't have to spend weeks leveling a character only to lose him.  Characters are the same statwise and progression is found in scavenged gear. 

 

There are quite a few sandboxes on the horizon for release and I am optimistic that at least one of them will have some real danger.  Danger will cause such a game to have a great community since players will want to work together to avoid said danger.  Sandbox games tend to target the more hardcore players who like a challenge, so i am hopefully at least one will be dangerous, but i guess we will have to see what various developers give us.

Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now!

I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19463

3/28/13 2:02:58 PM#54
Originally posted by BigHatLogan

There are quite a few sandboxes on the horizon for release and I am optimistic that at least one of them will have some real danger.  Danger will cause such a game to have a great community since players will want to work together to avoid said danger.  Sandbox games tend to target the more hardcore players who like a challenge, so i am hopefully at least one will be dangerous, but i guess we will have to see what various developers give us.

So many unproven assumptions here.

Danger will cause a great community? You don't need to work together .. you just need to be careful. In fact, not relying on others not to screw up is probably a good strategy.

What is the most popular perma-death game .. yes, it is D3. It is not a sandbox .. and not even a proper MMO.

 

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3039

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

3/28/13 2:24:24 PM#55


Originally posted by Waterlily

Originally posted by BigHatLogan
I never played EQ1, but i heard horror stories from players that certainly sounded like they felt fear.  Perhaps due to xp loss penalties and impossible corpse runs.

Basically if you died in EQ you left a corpse behind with all your gear and items on it and you were kicked to your bind spot which could be hours away from where you died. You were naked, literally. You also lost a substantial amount of XP, often losing your current level.

You weren't an invulnerable ghost like in WoW, you were just a regular player but now naked and all your belongins were somewhere far away out of reach.

There was also a danger of being new to a zone and not exactly knowing where you died anymore. Mobs did not unleash like in new games, they would follow you for miles, you would often have no clue where you died.

What happened to a group who died or a single player who died is that they often needed help, imagine dying next to lvl 40 mobs, now you are basically screwed, how are you going to get your corpse back naked. You need assistance and you need to reach out to people in the zone and make contact with people and notify everyone you need help. You needed necromancers to run to you to that zone to summon your corpse away, or other groups to clear a path for you or IVU buffs to keep you invisible (but this was risky since invisibility is not stable in EQ), basically you needed help.

Result = community organisation, discussions, friends



A good write-up of dieing in EQ. Another option was to trust a stranger to have total control over your corpse and have them drag it to a safe place. While they had control, they could go into your corpse's inventory and take things. A player had to execute a command in order to give another that power. A player could also try getting close enough to their corpse in order to drag it safety themselves, but the MOBs did not usually cooperate for that :)

Losing corpses was a common event in EQ. Bards had a low level "find corpse" song and Necromancers could summon someone's corpse, like you said. Before they added in maps, losing a corpse was much more prevalent. Sometimes, players would wander for hours simply looking for their corpse. Most players would think is stupid. Many times, it gave players a good story to share with others during downtime.

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19463

3/28/13 2:28:26 PM#56
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 


A good write-up of dieing in EQ. Another option was to trust a stranger to have total control over your corpse and have them drag it to a safe place. While they had control, they could go into your corpse's inventory and take things. A player had to execute a command in order to give another that power. A player could also try getting close enough to their corpse in order to drag it safety themselves, but the MOBs did not usually cooperate for that :)

That is another thing wrong with EQ (for me). Why would i want to trust a stranger to my gaming happiness?

  RajCaj

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/11/08
Posts: 684

3/28/13 3:30:01 PM#57
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by RajCaj

1) acheivement in a game is an illusion.

2) You don't need any death penalty for the epleen kind of achievemnt. Just look at world first hard mode raid kills. or look at Diabloprogress, or wow-hero, or gear score. People can "feel" the illusion of achievement in many ways.

1) Of course it's an illusion...so is the entire game, if you're going to take it to that phylisophical level.  That said, people that typically get into MMOs are a willing acomplice of this illusion.  These folks usually have an easier time suspending disbelief and accept the illusion whole sale.  So if perception is reality....then for these folks, the illusion is real.

 But it means that you don't need real challenges of harsh consequences to maintain the illusion. There are many psychological tricks to do that. In fact, the proof is in what is happening ... most games don't have harsh consequences .. and people still hook onto progression.

2) The degree of difficulty in heroics, raids, accumulating gear scores are more of logistical challenges...not so much difficulty of the encounter itself.  Heroics are harder because the NPCs have more HP / MP, and deal more damage (with a few additional gimmicks).  Getting a high gear score is hard because of the time invested & social network needed to have access to the gear that provides the high score.  Not because of the need to be perfect in execution...else lose your arse.

Not in defeating bosses. Look at world first. Not many guilds have players good enough to do hard mode raids. That is not logistical. But the point is this ... the illusion is easily maintained. Gearscore is very popualr and effective .. and you don't need any real consequences in gameplay to use that as a way to make the achievement illusion.

Look at the popularity of wow-progress, diabloprogress .. and website like that.

 

Different degrees of dificulty...

 

Let me see if I can clarify....what I mean is, there are different types of difficulty, that yield different types of responses.

Games with high risk / consequences for failing at something in the game (be it PvP, Crafting, Surviving) provide for a different stimulus / bodily response than in games with lower risk / consequences.

I've played a good cross section of the two, and there is a recognizable difference.  (NOT saying one is better or superior to the other)

PvPing in a game like Ultima Online (which has a full loot to the victor system) generated an adreneline rush...sweaty palms & pits, rapid heart beat, hightened senses....that I RARELY experienced in games like WOW, Rift, Aion, Warhammer, etc.  All I had to lose in the former was time running back to the corpse....retaining all gear & ability to continue playing the game.

PvP encounters in both games can be equally difficult in their own way, but deliver completely different experiences to the end user.

 

Same for things like crafting.  Crafting can be considered "difficult" in WOW because of all the time needed to farm resources (or farm money to purchase the resources) and crafting junk items to gain a skill level that you can finally make something of value.

Crafting in a game like Lineage 2, where some crafts only have a 60% success chance, can be considered "difficult" because all the time & money spent on gathering the resources & recipes could all be for not because you had bad luck.  If you've never had an adreneline rush crafting...I suggest you try playing L2.

Crafting in both games can be equally difficult in their own way, but deliver completely different experiences to the end user.

 

Some folks enjoy that rush...who typically enjoy the virtual world / old school type of MMO.  Most dont, who typically enjoy progression based / modern MMOs.

  RajCaj

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/11/08
Posts: 684

3/28/13 3:36:09 PM#58
Originally posted by Disdena

*dons Psychology Major cap*

The primary motivation for playing is to experience things that you can't experience in the real world, either because they're not possible or because there is some prohibitive cost or risk. There are many ways that video games try to appeal to gamers. If you want the fantasy of living a magic-wielding hero's life, they can give you that (even though it's impossible in real life). If you want to explore an unknown place, they can give you that (even though it's expensive and risky in real life). If you want an arena where you can prove that you're superior to your peers, they can give you that (even though it's risky in real life).

A game can take the place of a risky real life situation. And the danger you experience in a game is a substitute for the excitement you would feel from being in such a situation in real life. But the danger is an illusion. That is the whole point of a game. You try, you hope, you sweat, you panic, you frantically push buttons... but you fail! And you sit back and realize it was just a game. It's like watching an intense movie. No matter how wrapped up you get in it and how much anxiety and stress you feel over what the characters are going through, you are always just one head-turn away from stepping out of the experience and seeing the film for the illusion that it is.

Wanting the risk of "real" loss (as in, substantial loss of virtual items that have a real value in dollars or hours spent) in a game misses the function of a game. The point of a game is to provide an experience without that real-life risk. If you want danger and risk, gamble! Skydive! Day trade! Kickbox! Join the Marines! Start your own business! Move to Darfur! Life is full of rewarding things that have risks attached. If you want to experience danger and you're not satisfied with the illusion of danger in a game, take that as a hint that you can step away from the keyboard and find danger in real life.

I follow what you're saying, but I'll disagree on what you define as the "point of a game".

 

My understanding of the point of a game is to perform some action to overcome some obstacle, in order to achieve some desired response.  If the desire of the gamer is to experience an adreneline rush similar to what you'd normally get after accidently running up on a mother bear in the woods (fight or flight), but without the actual risk of losing life or limb, then who's to say that a high risk / consequence type MMO isn't actually a game (or a good one at that) ?

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19463

3/28/13 3:46:23 PM#59
Originally posted by RajCaj
 

Let me see if I can clarify....what I mean is, there are different types of difficulty, that yield different types of responses.

My issue is that some of the items you mentioned, does not fit the normal English notion of difficulty. I have no issue talking abotu these things .. and be clear about them.

Games with high risk / consequences for failing at something in the game (be it PvP, Crafting, Surviving) provide for a different stimulus / bodily response than in games with lower risk / consequences.

How can high risk be difficulty? I can have high risk going to Vegas playing high stake black jack .. which is a very simple game. Heck, i can even just flip a coin. You character has a chance of 10% to die a perma death every 10 min ... that is high risk, but i would not use the word "challenge" or "difficulty".

I've played a good cross section of the two, and there is a recognizable difference.  (NOT saying one is better or superior to the other)

PvPing in a game like Ultima Online (which has a full loot to the victor system) generated an adreneline rush...sweaty palms & pits, rapid heart beat, hightened senses....that I RARELY experienced in games like WOW, Rift, Aion, Warhammer, etc.  All I had to lose in the former was time running back to the corpse....retaining all gear & ability to continue playing the game.

Similarly, adrenaline rush is not difficulty .. it is a response to uncertainly. You can get that by gambling. You don't need challenge to achieve this.

 

Same for things like crafting.  Crafting can be considered "difficult" in WOW because of all the time needed to farm resources (or farm money to purchase the resources) and crafting junk items to gain a skill level that you can finally make something of value.

Is the requirement of time difficult? I also take issue of this. If all you do is click or just sit .. is it difficult? Are you saying i am forced to take a 20 min boat ride (it cost me 20 min) .. i do nothing on the boat .. and it is more difficult than flying because it takes 20 min. That just does not gell with the normal notion of being difficult. I would call it easy and boring.

Crafting in a game like Lineage 2, where some crafts only have a 60% success chance, can be considered "difficult" because all the time & money spent on gathering the resources & recipes could all be for not because you had bad luck.  If you've never had an adreneline rush crafting...I suggest you try playing L2.

Again, this is like gambling. Is gambling difficult? In D3, you have a small chance to get a legendary, or a good lengedary. Killing the elite is difficult. Click on it and roll ..is not.

Some folks enjoy that rush...who typically enjoy the virtual world / old school type of MMO.  Most dont, who typically enjoy progression based / modern MMOs.

Sure .. everyone enjoys different thing. However, if you enjoy the risk, don't call it a challenge. Call it gambling, risk behavior, rush, or something else. Otherwise, communication would not be clear.

 

  Torik

Elite Member

Joined: 1/02/09
Posts: 2323

3/28/13 3:51:52 PM#60
Originally posted by Hedeon

have never felt any kind of fright in a MMO, may have got suprised once or twice in singleplayer games though - no matter what death penalty there have been in a MMO, Ive never felt in danger, in any way, not even in EvE when got shot down in an expensive ship - not to say Ive not been abit meh over it, since it takes awhile to farm the isk for me....but scared no.

in EQ2 it always baffled me that people would react much on dieing, so you had a minute to wait before going again, who cares about a minute or 2 - if time were that important to a person, they shouldnt play a MMO since you d never have the patience for other peoples screw ups then.

either way in the end I never felt danger in a MMO, and wouldnt really care about soul runs, other than I like the idea of an extra task....right up untill all that happens is people log off untill they got it back.

Same here.  I never feel fear in MMORPGs.  I remember once in EVE we were running a mining operation in low sec when a pirate warped right on top of us.  It was a franctic rush to get away but I was not actually scared.  I was frustrated that the work setting up the the op went to waste and I hated that we would have to travel back empty handed.  But there was no fear.  Instead I had the same feeling I get when I am doing a Sudoku, screw up and have to start from scratch. 

Maybe it is because I just never form emotional bonds with my virtual possessions.  I know that I might get bored with teh game and quit and I can't take virtual property with me.  The achievement is in obtaining the items but there is no achievement in keeping them since it is so trivial to lose them all.

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