Trending Games | ArcheAge | WildStar | Star Wars: The Old Republic | Wasteland 2

  Network:  FPSguru RTSguru
Login:  Password:   Remember?  
Show Quick Gamelist Jump to Random Game
Members:2,857,796 Users Online:0
Games:742  Posts:6,243,471
Rift (Rift)
Trion Worlds | Official Site
MMORPG | Genre:Fantasy | Status:Final  (rel 03/01/11)  | Pub:Trion Worlds
PVP:Yes | Distribution:Download | Retail Price:Free | Pay Type:Free | Monthly Fee:Free
System Req: PC | Out of date info? Let us know!

General Discussion Forum » The Pub at MMORPG.COM » Dispelling the 'easy' myth

19 Pages First « 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 » Last Search
362 posts found
  doodphace

Elite Member

Joined: 6/19/12
Posts: 1511

3/27/13 1:58:34 PM#121
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by doodphace
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by doodphace
Originally posted by MindTrigger
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by MindTrigger

 

There is very little accumulated "mmo skill" that would make fighting mobs easier, and it's nothing a brand new player couldn't figure out immediately if they bother to read and understand the skills they are using. Hell, I don't even bust out a spreadsheet and do the math on builds like some do, because there's no reason to.  These games are easier.


 

Really? Show me a brand new max-level player who can raid hard mode effectively.

The point of the article is not that there is no easy content in MMO, it is that there is difficult content, and people ignoring the challenges when they are complaining about games being "too easy".

Of course it is easy if you don't even try the challenging content. Go do all the challenging content ... if that is still too easy, come back .. and may be then you have some credibility to rant.

Most people don't raid.  Period.  We know this from statistics of MMOs like WoW.  Raiding is like a second job, and most people simply re-roll in these games instead, which is another reason why everyone is getting bored with the same old end-game raid design.

The point is that the games should have some challenging content in-world too, not just faceroll gameplay that any half-awake idiot can do because their character is so overpowered, or hard-mode scripted raid content.

Actually in WoW, most people do raid.....its the hardmodes that very few people do (hense the point of the article). LFR was a great addition in that sense.

Actually I don't think thats true at all.  Even with LFR using WoWprogress, depending on the numbers you use show that between 25,000 and 60,000 guilds have completed a raid,  Average guild size is about 25 (yes there are many more, yes there are many less as there are both 25 and 10 man raids), 

This is 1.5 million, which is only 15% of the games population.

Yes I know these are not exact number, they are very very rough numbers, but they are the only actual numbers we have to go on.

Even give a 100% fault with this, that is still only 30%.

Most accounts in WoW do not raid, or even have a max level character.

WoW progress is not tracking individual LFR progress, it tracks full Guild run Normal and heroic kills

ah, my mistake.  Well I'll say the number is a bit higher, but still content the majority, as in over 50%, don't raid.

Not to go back and fourth with this, but I literally do not know a single active WoW player with a max level toon (mains, not alts) who has not at least done an LFR (I realise this sint the most compelling argument). LFR is done exactly like 5 man dungons, they are "easy", and you queue for them individually or as a group. I am willing to bet my life savings that LFR use is over 50%, just like the dungon finder.

  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4824

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

3/27/13 2:02:47 PM#122
And on the other other, I know many that don't have max level toons. Isn't lfr only available for 25 player mode?

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  doodphace

Elite Member

Joined: 6/19/12
Posts: 1511

3/27/13 3:02:42 PM#123
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
And on the other other, I know many that don't have max level toons. Isn't lfr only available for 25 player mode?

Yes, you queue for LFR, and get grouped with 24 other random players. Thats the great thing about it, anyone can do it without investing oddles of time or even be in a guild. Of course max level toons would only come into play, the initial comment I responded to was talking about "end game raiding". My "over 50%" is refering to charecters capable of running endgame content. My apologies if that was not clear before.

  Elikal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/09/06
Posts: 8067

“No path is darker then when your eyes are shut.” -Flemeth

3/27/13 3:42:14 PM#124

Sort of related: Old School VS New School, the video:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7MDMdfcRfI

A forum is a place where people can discuss about different opinions. So what I don't get is, how people react offended when they come to a forum and then find... well different opinions. If a different opinion offends you, what are you even doing here?

  ClaudeSuamOram

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 134

3/27/13 4:25:01 PM#125
Originally posted by Elikal

Sort of related: Old School VS New School, the video:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7MDMdfcRfI

That was pretty well done.

  Xiaoki

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/07/04
Posts: 2438

3/27/13 5:08:49 PM#126


Originally posted by doodphace

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by doodphace

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by doodphace

Originally posted by MindTrigger

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by MindTrigger

 
There is very little accumulated "mmo skill" that would make fighting mobs easier, and it's nothing a brand new player couldn't figure out immediately if they bother to read and understand the skills they are using. Hell, I don't even bust out a spreadsheet and do the math on builds like some do, because there's no reason to.  These games are easier.  
Really? Show me a brand new max-level player who can raid hard mode effectively. The point of the article is not that there is no easy content in MMO, it is that there is difficult content, and people ignoring the challenges when they are complaining about games being "too easy". Of course it is easy if you don't even try the challenging content. Go do all the challenging content ... if that is still too easy, come back .. and may be then you have some credibility to rant.
Most people don't raid.  Period.  We know this from statistics of MMOs like WoW.  Raiding is like a second job, and most people simply re-roll in these games instead, which is another reason why everyone is getting bored with the same old end-game raid design. The point is that the games should have some challenging content in-world too, not just faceroll gameplay that any half-awake idiot can do because their character is so overpowered, or hard-mode scripted raid content.
Actually in WoW, most people do raid.....its the hardmodes that very few people do (hense the point of the article). LFR was a great addition in that sense.
Actually I don't think thats true at all.  Even with LFR using WoWprogress, depending on the numbers you use show that between 25,000 and 60,000 guilds have completed a raid,  Average guild size is about 25 (yes there are many more, yes there are many less as there are both 25 and 10 man raids),  This is 1.5 million, which is only 15% of the games population. Yes I know these are not exact number, they are very very rough numbers, but they are the only actual numbers we have to go on. Even give a 100% fault with this, that is still only 30%. Most accounts in WoW do not raid, or even have a max level character.
WoW progress is not tracking individual LFR progress, it tracks full Guild run Normal and heroic kills
ah, my mistake.  Well I'll say the number is a bit higher, but still content the majority, as in over 50%, don't raid.
Not to go back and fourth with this, but I literally do not know a single active WoW player with a max level toon (mains, not alts) who has not at least done an LFR (I realise this sint the most compelling argument). LFR is done exactly like 5 man dungons, they are "easy", and you queue for them individually or as a group. I am willing to bet my life savings that LFR use is over 50%, just like the dungon finder.


Just going to add 2 things:


1 - WoW Progress mainly tracks US and English speaking European guilds. Exceptional non-English guilds are tracked. Asian guilds are pretty much not represented at all, there are listings for some Korean and Taiwanese but not many. Chinese guilds are not tracked at all.


2 - WoW Progress is updated by the players. WoW Progress doesnt scan Blizzard's Armory looking for raid achievements, when a guild makes a kill the guild leader will contact WoW Progress and the listings will be updated. And since WoW Progress is an English website that is a main reason why non-English guilds have low representation as described in the first point.


WoW Progress is just a tool to track overall and server raid progress, its not meant to be used as some empirical metric for total population raid participation.

  Miblet

Novice Member

Joined: 8/19/10
Posts: 333

3/27/13 5:15:20 PM#127

Unless something has changed a lot since I stopped WoW, it does check armoury.  It updates on a schedule via software that trawls the armoury.  This update can be circumvented for the impatient by forcing it to update sooner by request.

 

Edit:  Checked, yes as mentioned above nothing changed.  Manual updates are available and it updates between a few days to weekly via the data crawler.

 

WoW Progress is just a tool to track overall and server raid progress, its not meant to be used as some empirical metric for total population raid participation.

^^This I agree with!

  Novusod

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/30/09
Posts: 866

3/27/13 5:37:50 PM#128
Originally posted by nariusseldon

http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/03/26/the-soapbox-dispelling-the-easy-myth/#continued

"This isn't a WoW-specific issue or even one limited to MMOs. Gamers from all disciplines seem to be fond of complaining about games being easy without actually attempting anything to accomplish difficult. Big Huge Games noted in a GDC 2012 talk that "too easy" was a common complaint about Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning, even though two-thirds of its players completed it on the easiest difficulty setting. BioWare's awesome infographic for Mass Effect 3, shown at last week's PAX East, showed that only four percent of players completed the game on "Insanity" difficulty. The "hardcore" in text don't seem to be all that "hardcore" in practice."

"So the next time you find yourself typing "too easy" in a comment box, maybe you should consider whether you've actually tried the hard stuff before you click the post button."

This is so true. Many other examples. WOW's famous Sunwell is done only by 2%. Even when LFR first came out, the "normal" mode is done only by 4% where LFR is done by a whopping 35% of the players.

Take D3 as another example. You can make the game highly difficulty with perma death. How many kill Diablo on MP10 hard core?

Hard modes and "insanity" settings are bandaids that add little or NO value to the gaming experience.

 

When hardcore players say they want hardmode they want the whole game to be hard so it builds community. Getting to level cap in older MMOs used to be a real acomplishment and it was usally impossible to solo through. Getting the Everquest EPIC done was a huge deal that took months and lot of team work. It wasn't something you just solo'ed though in a single weekend. Without community backing you weren't getting that epic done. So you kind of had to play the social game as well and that is what made it really hard. Players had to unite in the adversity of the more difficult game world. That is what hardmode is really about.

 

So when people say hardmode what they are really saying is they want community and sence of purpose. This a fundamental human want that will never go away. Modern games don't fill this human need though. It is a psycological aspect that makes those older games work.

  Cephus404

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3697

3/27/13 5:57:45 PM#129
Originally posted by Elikal

Sort of related: Old School VS New School, the video:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7MDMdfcRfI

Very well made, totally wrong.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None

  Everwest

Novice Member

Joined: 2/28/13
Posts: 75

3/27/13 6:14:05 PM#130
Originally posted by Novusod
Originally posted by nariusseldon

http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/03/26/the-soapbox-dispelling-the-easy-myth/#continued

"This isn't a WoW-specific issue or even one limited to MMOs. Gamers from all disciplines seem to be fond of complaining about games being easy without actually attempting anything to accomplish difficult. Big Huge Games noted in a GDC 2012 talk that "too easy" was a common complaint about Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning, even though two-thirds of its players completed it on the easiest difficulty setting. BioWare's awesome infographic for Mass Effect 3, shown at last week's PAX East, showed that only four percent of players completed the game on "Insanity" difficulty. The "hardcore" in text don't seem to be all that "hardcore" in practice."

"So the next time you find yourself typing "too easy" in a comment box, maybe you should consider whether you've actually tried the hard stuff before you click the post button."

This is so true. Many other examples. WOW's famous Sunwell is done only by 2%. Even when LFR first came out, the "normal" mode is done only by 4% where LFR is done by a whopping 35% of the players.

Take D3 as another example. You can make the game highly difficulty with perma death. How many kill Diablo on MP10 hard core?

Hard modes and "insanity" settings are bandaids that add little or NO value to the gaming experience.

 

When hardcore players say they want hardmode they want the whole game to be hard so it builds community. Getting to level cap in older MMOs used to be a real acomplishment and it was usally impossible to solo through. Getting the Everquest EPIC done was a huge deal that took months and lot of team work. It wasn't something you just solo'ed though in a single weekend. Without community backing you weren't getting that epic done. So you kind of had to play the social game as well and that is what made it really hard. Players had to unite in the adversity of the more difficult game world. That is what hardmode is really about.

 

So when people say hardmode what they are really saying is they want community and sence of purpose. This a fundamental human want that will never go away. Modern games don't fill this human need though. It is a psycological aspect that makes those older games work.

I don't think that's true at all.  Yes, players want community and a sense of purpose, but I don't think that's where they want the difficulty to be.  In fact, most players that I've spoken to HATE that element of MMO's--the politics, the ridiculous cooperation required to coordinate events, loot distribution, group grinding, etc. 

Plenty of games demonstrate that difficulty settings like Hard Modes are major factors in the success of the game.  In any skill-based game, scaling difficult is virtually a requirement to ensure that the game is fun--this IS supported by decades of psychological research.

No, I think when most people say that they want challenge, they mean that they want more challenging gameplay, and if anything, LESS social challenge.  Social challenges are stressful, and can even be harmful to player self-esteem, in a way that gameplay challenges are not.

In either case, it's definitely not true that difficult settings add little value to games.  In many cases, they define the value of the game.  e.g., imagine if Guitar Hero only had an Easy Mode.  It wouldn't be nearly as successful without the Medium, Hard, and Expert settings.  This is true of a very large number of games throughout history.

  Elikal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/09/06
Posts: 8067

“No path is darker then when your eyes are shut.” -Flemeth

3/27/13 7:04:43 PM#131

There is one really cool example how a game circumvented difficulty. It was the original Serious Sam. If you had to do a certain difficult task, just timed jumping over a chasm, after a while the game offered you to teleport to the other side if you failed several times. Same with some Adventure games, which have a timer, and after a while it offers you the solution. I really like that in games. I just hate it to be stuck, or die repeatendly no matter what I try.

Usually too many games offer just ONE WAY to solve anything. So it isn't hardship or difficulty, just you have to redo exactly what some developer had in mind. Especially strategy games are plagued with that. I only remember "Myth - Kreuzzug ins Ungewisse" (I can't for the love of God find out it's English name.) was different. Even if one of two approaches to win a map failed, you didn't have to restart. You still could turn all around and win.

Some games are particularly bad in this, namely the last Heroes of Might and Magic and Age of Empires. You could play on for HOURS, not knowing that you had already lost long ago, because you did something wrong, and hours were played for nothing, because beyond the fog of war the enemy had built 10 times as much as you. I hate that. I want chances to take a difficult situation still around, have a chance to make another way. Too often games force you down one particular road or method to win, and then it all comes down to google THE only strategy to win.

Call that difficult, if you want, I call it stupid.

 

EDIT: The game was named "Myth: The Fallen Lords" in English. LOVED that game.

A forum is a place where people can discuss about different opinions. So what I don't get is, how people react offended when they come to a forum and then find... well different opinions. If a different opinion offends you, what are you even doing here?

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3201

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

3/27/13 11:16:31 PM#132


Originally posted by Disdena
So you've beaten all the hardest raids in WoW, right? You haven't? That's the point of the OP's post. People are way too fond of calling something easy even though they're not capable of doing it or have never tried.

So WoW is hard because of a few raids that make up how much of the total game?

Would you call leveling in WoW hard?

Would you call crafting in WoW hard?

Would you call quest running in WoW hard?

Would you call the death penalty in WoW hard?

Since I don't raid in WoW, would *my* personal opinion of "WoW is easy" hold any merit? Not for people who place raiding at the top. But it may hold merit for the <insert made up percentage> of the playerbase who do not raid.

With your logic, any game that has something I cannot do/beat is hard. Even if I can easily complete the other hundreds of activities in the game. Now, if that one activity I cannot beat is the reason I play the game, I would agree that it is hard. But throwing up the reason *you* play a game to others who could not care less about it and saying "This IS a hard game!" does not work. One needs multiple examples of difficulties to cover more players than "just raiding." Unless one uses a jumping console game or an FPS game as an example. Then everyone who plays it is on the same page.

The questions I ask myself, and sometimes post them, when I read about "WoW hard mode dungeons/raids" are:
"Did that poster run to Google, YouTube, or some fan site to find out how to beat it, or did they figure it out for themselves?"
"What add-ons did they use?"

Passing a tough history final exam without a cheat sheet is hard. Use a cheat sheet and it no longer is. If they figure it out themselves, wiping multiple times as they figure things out, I am duly impressed. Otherwise, I wonder at their grasp of reality. "I beat the raid" does mean squat when they followed a guide on how to do so.

When placed in context, "This game is hard!" does not always hold up to scrutiny. The opposite also is true. Without asking questions for clarification, it is just text on the internet.

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  Everwest

Novice Member

Joined: 2/28/13
Posts: 75

3/27/13 11:23:24 PM#133
Games don't even need to be "hard" necessarily--they need to be challenging.  There needs to be a real risk that you will lose.  That risk doesn't need to be (and shouldn't generally be) cranked up to 11, however.
  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3201

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

3/27/13 11:37:04 PM#134


Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by xdemonhunter
for starters there is no way to pick difficult setting in a massive online game unlike single player games,

uh? Where have you been?

I can pick difficulty in DDO, and WOW (3 difficulty of raid, 2 difficulty of 5-man dungeon).



I want to see you pick your difficulty setting in a non-instanced setting. Can you hunt Goldshire or Durotar in hard-mode? City of Heroes also had difficulty settings, but only for instances.

You really need to get another example for a game besides D3 for MMO discussions. Square peg, round hole.

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3201

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

3/27/13 11:42:47 PM#135


Originally posted by doodphace
Not to go back and fourth with this, but I literally do not know a single active WoW player with a max level toon (mains, not alts) who has not at least done an LFR (I realise this sint the most compelling argument). LFR is done exactly like 5 man dungons, they are "easy", and you queue for them individually or as a group. I am willing to bet my life savings that LFR use is over 50%, just like the dungon finder.

So, a player who raids a couple of times is counted as the player base needed to justify the raiding?

How about phrasing the question thusly:
"How many WoW players actively raid?"

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  Everwest

Novice Member

Joined: 2/28/13
Posts: 75

3/27/13 11:52:25 PM#136

For non-instanced difficulty settings, you just offer progressive rewards.  e.g., supposing you overhunt by ten levels, you recieve an exponential XP bonus.  In other words, if you could normally only be expected to defeat enemies that were your level, but it were possible to kill enemies 5 levels above you (but it took 5 times as long to do all considered), then they reward you with 10x the XP you'd get for killing a mob of the same level as you.

Most MMOs intuitively have challenges designed that are more difficult than what you're expected to complete.  The problem isn't that they don't have different levels of difficulty, it's that they don't reward you for actually overcoming those challenges.  In fact, more often than not, they actually punish you with inefficient XP/hour and an undesirable risk:reward prospect.

  waynejr2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3735

RIP City of Heroes!

3/28/13 12:01:05 AM#137
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by xdemonhunter

 for starters there is no way to pick difficult setting in a massive online game unlike single player games,

uh? Where have you been?

I can pick difficulty in DDO, and WOW (3 difficulty of raid, 2 difficulty of 5-man dungeon).

Could do it for instances in CoH too.

In fact, this probably should be a standard feature in MMOs. Clearly different people want different levels of difficulty, and clearly this is doable. There is little reason not to give it to them.

 City of Heroes did a number of things that should be standard.  Difficultty settings is one of them. 

  Disdena

Novice Member

Joined: 3/05/10
Posts: 1098

3/28/13 12:42:21 AM#138
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 


Originally posted by Disdena
So you've beaten all the hardest raids in WoW, right? You haven't? That's the point of the OP's post. People are way too fond of calling something easy even though they're not capable of doing it or have never tried.


So WoW is hard because of a few raids that make up how much of the total game?

 

Would you call leveling in WoW hard?

Would you call crafting in WoW hard?

Would you call quest running in WoW hard?

Would you call the death penalty in WoW hard?

Since I don't raid in WoW, would *my* personal opinion of "WoW is easy" hold any merit? Not for people who place raiding at the top. But it may hold merit for the of the playerbase who do not raid.

But the person I was quoting made a direct comparison between WoW raids and DAOC raids. Specifically, "the hardest (most gimmicky) raid in WoW is still easier than almost all raids in DAOC." Level of difficulty is subjective so it's possible for one player to agree with that statement while another player disagrees. But if he hasn't done any raiding, his opinion on the subject doesn't have any merit.

  Horusra

Elite Member

Joined: 6/26/05
Posts: 2205

3/28/13 1:14:02 AM#139
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 


Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by xdemonhunter
for starters there is no way to pick difficult setting in a massive online game unlike single player games,


uh? Where have you been?

 

I can pick difficulty in DDO, and WOW (3 difficulty of raid, 2 difficulty of 5-man dungeon).



I want to see you pick your difficulty setting in a non-instanced setting. Can you hunt Goldshire or Durotar in hard-mode? City of Heroes also had difficulty settings, but only for instances.

 

You really need to get another example for a game besides D3 for MMO discussions. Square peg, round hole.

 Try hunting in an area that is higher level than you.

  Horusra

Elite Member

Joined: 6/26/05
Posts: 2205

3/28/13 1:18:19 AM#140
For WoW outside of PvP and Raiding it is not meant to be "hard"...outside of those it is about collecting mainly.  Rep, mounts, gear, etc.  The acqusition of stuff is what keeps people in the game.  Hard is collecting all the stuff in X amount of time that you will actually want to play the game.  If you do not like raiding, PvP, or collecting frankly WoW is not for you.  I found Eve to be very simplistic and boring.  Nothing was "hard"...annoying maybe, but not hard. 
19 Pages First « 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 » Last Search