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General Discussion Forum » The Pub at MMORPG.COM » Dispelling the 'easy' myth

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362 posts found
  Xiaoki

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/07/04
Posts: 2513

3/27/13 12:27:56 PM#101


Originally posted by Waterlily

Originally posted by Sephiroso

Originally posted by Waterlily Sorry I should have known someone would be offended.  WoW, Tera and Hello Kitty are hard too. Every game is hard now, no one QQ. You are all winners today.  Group hug.
He's right, the stuff you listed isn't hard. It's just tedious bullshit you had to deal with back then.   What's hard is killing Lich King on Heroic Mode without using 30% buff. What's hard was finishing Naxx in Vanilla WoW. The fact that you group WoW and Tera together shows you're just a flamer.
Someone needs a story about WoW and Everquest.

WoW was made by Everquest players, by players from Legacy of Steel. LoS was a medicore guild that had a lot of QQ players on the forums of Everquest. They were ranked somehwere as guild 50, top ones were Tide, Darkwind, Ceistus Dei Aetherius and a few others I don't remember.

They croked somewhere in the middle of Gates of Discord (same place Fires of Heaven and annoying loudmouth Furer croked).



Only 2 people were former EQ players. Tigole and Furor.


Tigole was leader of Legacy of Steel. LoS had most of the world first raid kills and therefor a lot of influence with the SOE developers and raid design.
Before Tigole took over LoS the guild was run by Rob Pardo.

Also, when Tigole joined WoW in 2002 he worked on quest design.


Furor was leader of Fires of Heaven and was EQs first level 50. FoH also had many world first achievements.


Seems like the only person that needs a history lesson is you. Its funny that you are so intent on bashing WoW that you will try and rewrite EQs history to do it. Its quite laughable to call Legacy of Steel a "mediocre guild".

  MindTrigger

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/19/07
Posts: 2628

3/27/13 12:28:22 PM#102
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by MindTrigger

 

There is very little accumulated "mmo skill" that would make fighting mobs easier, and it's nothing a brand new player couldn't figure out immediately if they bother to read and understand the skills they are using. Hell, I don't even bust out a spreadsheet and do the math on builds like some do, because there's no reason to.  These games are easier.


 

Really? Show me a brand new max-level player who can raid hard mode effectively.

The point of the article is not that there is no easy content in MMO, it is that there is difficult content, and people ignoring the challenges when they are complaining about games being "too easy".

Of course it is easy if you don't even try the challenging content. Go do all the challenging content ... if that is still too easy, come back .. and may be then you have some credibility to rant.

Most people don't raid.  Period.  We know this from statistics of MMOs like WoW.  Raiding is like a second job, and most people simply re-roll in these games instead, which is another reason why everyone is getting bored with the same old end-game raid design.

The point is that the games should have some challenging content in-world too, not just faceroll gameplay that any half-awake idiot can do because their character is so overpowered, or hard-mode scripted raid content.

A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  Destai

Elite Member

Joined: 8/31/09
Posts: 526

3/27/13 12:45:12 PM#103
I don't see why insane difficult equates to quality or fun. Some may enjoy it, but I find a game frustrating if it's too difficult. I play games to relax, not get pissed off. That's not to say I don't enjoy challenge or engaging content, but some games take it to an extreme. (For instance, the Arah explorable paths in GW2. Enough with the snares!)
  doodphace

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/19/12
Posts: 1719

3/27/13 1:29:28 PM#104
Originally posted by MindTrigger
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by MindTrigger

 

There is very little accumulated "mmo skill" that would make fighting mobs easier, and it's nothing a brand new player couldn't figure out immediately if they bother to read and understand the skills they are using. Hell, I don't even bust out a spreadsheet and do the math on builds like some do, because there's no reason to.  These games are easier.


 

Really? Show me a brand new max-level player who can raid hard mode effectively.

The point of the article is not that there is no easy content in MMO, it is that there is difficult content, and people ignoring the challenges when they are complaining about games being "too easy".

Of course it is easy if you don't even try the challenging content. Go do all the challenging content ... if that is still too easy, come back .. and may be then you have some credibility to rant.

Most people don't raid.  Period.  We know this from statistics of MMOs like WoW.  Raiding is like a second job, and most people simply re-roll in these games instead, which is another reason why everyone is getting bored with the same old end-game raid design.

The point is that the games should have some challenging content in-world too, not just faceroll gameplay that any half-awake idiot can do because their character is so overpowered, or hard-mode scripted raid content.

Actually in WoW, most people do raid.....its the hardmodes that very few people do (hense the point of the article). LFR was a great addition in that sense.

  xdemonhunter

Novice Member

Joined: 4/24/12
Posts: 31

3/27/13 1:37:55 PM#105

MMORPGs are easier and dumbed down now, i dont understand how someone cant grasp that. It is rather simple, for starters there is no way to pick difficult setting in a massive online game unlike single player games, this effectivily means that the game has to be developed around a single parameter of difficulty. Now the definition of whats easy or hard varies alot from player to player but it is common sense that if a MMORPGs sets the bar too high it will unavoidabily push alot of the regular gamers away.

With that in mind the difficulty of the game is set on the easier side so to cater to the most possible community, the same can be applyed to "dumbing down" games, alot of the gamers out there dont wanna have to deal with something that is very complex and hard to grasp by making the game simpler you can make it easier for more players to get into the game and enjoy.

 

It is just a logical bussness solution, you wanna be able to attract the most players and since the ammount of average/casual gamers far exceeds the hardcore ones a MMORPG will obviously be designed around them.

  JasonJ

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 414

3/27/13 1:41:04 PM#106
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by JasonJ

 Exactly, this is the issue with every single post about GW2.

Its too easy.

Ask them to post a video of them playing a bunker elementalist or lvl 100+ fractals, perhaps a video of them in a group where they can actually heal/tank an instance in a group without anyone dieing instead of rez zerging it.

Get a big "huh?" response from them.

laugh and walk away.

I think their confusion is that if "easy" gameplay is available as an option, then the whole game is easy. That is furthest from the truth.

Take D3. Doing inferno with no monster power is now trivial. Any fresh 60 can face tank almost everything and kill everything in seconds.

But the game also has a MP10 hard core perma-death mode. So is the game easy? Now, D3 has little complaint about it being easy because it was way difficult (for inferno) when it first came out.

But in reality, it has very easy, and very difficult content, just like WOW and many other MMOs.

 Yes but it also goes deeper than that sometimes.

A game is released, in a group, it turns out that if you die, you can run back before the fight ends and continue to help the group...because of THAT, people start REZ ZERGING all content because that makes it EASY...instead of actually LEARNING how to NOT die.

Dieing = easy.

Not dieing = hard.

Because easy, is easier...why learn how not to die? Because not dieing is hard!

Either way,  because you can do it easy and choose to do it easy, suddenly hard doesnt exist and so...complain. Even though, now, you CANT DO THAT ANYMORE. So, go back and play it, turns out the game is TOO HARD because you dont know how to actually play...complain.

taadaa, MMO way of thinking.

  MMOExposed

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 6221

3/27/13 1:53:54 PM#107
This thread deserves spot light status.

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4916

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

3/27/13 2:05:54 PM#108
Originally posted by doodphace
Originally posted by MindTrigger
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by MindTrigger

 

There is very little accumulated "mmo skill" that would make fighting mobs easier, and it's nothing a brand new player couldn't figure out immediately if they bother to read and understand the skills they are using. Hell, I don't even bust out a spreadsheet and do the math on builds like some do, because there's no reason to.  These games are easier.


 

Really? Show me a brand new max-level player who can raid hard mode effectively.

The point of the article is not that there is no easy content in MMO, it is that there is difficult content, and people ignoring the challenges when they are complaining about games being "too easy".

Of course it is easy if you don't even try the challenging content. Go do all the challenging content ... if that is still too easy, come back .. and may be then you have some credibility to rant.

Most people don't raid.  Period.  We know this from statistics of MMOs like WoW.  Raiding is like a second job, and most people simply re-roll in these games instead, which is another reason why everyone is getting bored with the same old end-game raid design.

The point is that the games should have some challenging content in-world too, not just faceroll gameplay that any half-awake idiot can do because their character is so overpowered, or hard-mode scripted raid content.

Actually in WoW, most people do raid.....its the hardmodes that very few people do (hense the point of the article). LFR was a great addition in that sense.

Actually I don't think thats true at all.  Even with LFR using WoWprogress, depending on the numbers you use show that between 25,000 and 60,000 guilds have completed a raid,  Average guild size is about 25 (yes there are many more, yes there are many less as there are both 25 and 10 man raids), 

This is 1.5 million, which is only 15% of the games population.

Yes I know these are not exact number, they are very very rough numbers, but they are the only actual numbers we have to go on.

Even give a 100% fault with this, that is still only 30%.

Most accounts in WoW do not raid, or even have a max level character.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20565

 
OP  3/27/13 2:11:50 PM#109
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
 

Actually I don't think thats true at all.  Even with LFR using WoWprogress, depending on the numbers you use show that between 25,000 and 60,000 guilds have completed a raid,  Average guild size is about 25 (yes there are many more, yes there are many less as there are both 25 and 10 man raids), 

This is 1.5 million, which is only 15% of the games population.

People don't need a guild to LFR. And if you LFR, it does not necessarily show up as a completion in your guild.

mmo-champion has some numbers when LFR first came out. The number is more like 35% of players completing the DS LFR raid after a month or two after the raid was released. The number is like 4% for the normal one.

  Zorgo

Elite Member

Joined: 12/05/05
Posts: 2266

Who did wrong? The advertiser hired to sell the game or the consumer who put faith in advertising?

3/27/13 2:12:01 PM#110

I think when people say 'easy' it needs clarification.

Here's a more detailed explination of what I think is the 'core' issue. I'll use D3 as an example.

The first time you run a character through D3 it is easy. The second time it is easy. The third time it's more difficult, but you've already done the game twice before. You want to try another class, you have to play 2 easy versions of the same game and content 2 more times per character before you reach the 'challenge'.

The problem isn't that the end game is easy. The problem is you have to play the game on easy mode to the point of ad naseum to reach the challenge. 

Grats! You won the game on easy mode. Now play it again a few more times and we'll present you with a challenge. Our game is challenging, as long as you have the patience to trudge through tedium to get there.

Games should challenge players from the moment they enter the game. Putting the challenge at the end, after playing the game a dozen times is not a 'difficult' game, it is a tedious one.

To me, that is the real complaint.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20565

 
OP  3/27/13 2:13:48 PM#111
Originally posted by JasonJ

A game is released, in a group, it turns out that if you die, you can run back before the fight ends and continue to help the group...because of THAT, people start REZ ZERGING all content because that makes it EASY...instead of actually LEARNING how to NOT die.

What MMO you can do that? You can't even do that in D3 (not a MMO) boss fight.

1) If you die, you cannot re-enter the instances after you rez outside. Usually the instance is locked.

2) If the group wipe, the boss reset.

What you said simply is not possible.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20565

 
OP  3/27/13 2:15:10 PM#112
Originally posted by xdemonhunter

 for starters there is no way to pick difficult setting in a massive online game unlike single player games,

uh? Where have you been?

I can pick difficulty in DDO, and WOW (3 difficulty of raid, 2 difficulty of 5-man dungeon).

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20565

 
OP  3/27/13 2:16:55 PM#113
Originally posted by Zorgo

 

Here's a more detailed explination of what I think is the 'core' issue. I'll use D3 as an example.

The first time you run a character through D3 it is easy. The second time it is easy. The third time it's more difficult, but you've already done the game twice before. You want to try another class, you have to play 2 easy versions of the same game and content 2 more times per character before you reach the 'challenge'.

Not if you run MP10 with no twink gear. The first time is not easy.
 

 

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4916

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

3/27/13 2:17:53 PM#114
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by xdemonhunter

 for starters there is no way to pick difficult setting in a massive online game unlike single player games,

uh? Where have you been?

I can pick difficulty in DDO, and WOW (3 difficulty of raid, 2 difficulty of 5-man dungeon).

Could do it for instances in CoH too.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Disdena

Novice Member

Joined: 3/05/10
Posts: 1098

3/27/13 2:36:23 PM#115
Originally posted by JasonJ

A game is released, in a group, it turns out that if you die, you can run back before the fight ends and continue to help the group...because of THAT, people start REZ ZERGING all content because that makes it EASY...instead of actually LEARNING how to NOT die.

Dieing = easy.

Not dieing = hard.

Because easy, is easier...why learn how not to die? Because not dieing is hard!

I don't know if the topic is worth exploring in this thread, but I'll ask anyway: what is it that makes not dying harder than dying? Or to put it more clearly, what makes a game where you can die many times harder than a game where you can only die once?

On one hand, you've got a normal game of Starcraft or whatever, fighting against the AI. On the other hand, you've got a Starcraft custom game where you control 5 Marines and have to take down a something-or-other without losing a single unit. Which is the harder game? In the real game, you need a lot of knowledge about the mechanics, ability to multitask, and macro strategies as well as manual dexterity for micro. It is clearly a more complex game that would take much longer to master than the minigame. Does the fact that you lose units constantly throughout the match make it an easier game? I think not.

Take the same concept and apply it to hit points. Instead of interpreting death as failure, treat injury as failure. There are some games where you can take several hits before you die. There are others where you die from a single hit. Would you say that one-hit-kill games are harder than games with a health meter? Would a one-hit-kill MMO (or RTS or fighting game or MOBA) be more challenging? I sure don't think so. Allowing for mistakes means the difficulty level can be planned around the fact that the player will take a lot of damage. This means there are more complex decisions to be made. The one-hit-kill game is inherently less complex because there's a more static risk-vs-reward system present. You don't get that "I have to change tactics when I get low on health" aspect.

  JasonJ

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 414

3/27/13 2:45:12 PM#116
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by JasonJ

A game is released, in a group, it turns out that if you die, you can run back before the fight ends and continue to help the group...because of THAT, people start REZ ZERGING all content because that makes it EASY...instead of actually LEARNING how to NOT die.

What MMO you can do that? You can't even do that in D3 (not a MMO) boss fight.

 This may sound crazy but you may want to actually read the quotes in what you are replying to...

  JasonJ

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 414

3/27/13 2:47:20 PM#117
Originally posted by Disdena
Originally posted by JasonJ

A game is released, in a group, it turns out that if you die, you can run back before the fight ends and continue to help the group...because of THAT, people start REZ ZERGING all content because that makes it EASY...instead of actually LEARNING how to NOT die.

Dieing = easy.

Not dieing = hard.

Because easy, is easier...why learn how not to die? Because not dieing is hard!

I don't know if the topic is worth exploring in this thread, but I'll ask anyway: what is it that makes not dying harder than dying?

 What makes DIEING harder than not dieing...it doesnt take skill to die, it does take skill to not die, to learn the fight, to stay ahead on the healing curve...seriously, how can anyone even ask that question.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20565

 
OP  3/27/13 2:47:56 PM#118
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by xdemonhunter

 for starters there is no way to pick difficult setting in a massive online game unlike single player games,

uh? Where have you been?

I can pick difficulty in DDO, and WOW (3 difficulty of raid, 2 difficulty of 5-man dungeon).

Could do it for instances in CoH too.

In fact, this probably should be a standard feature in MMOs. Clearly different people want different levels of difficulty, and clearly this is doable. There is little reason not to give it to them.

  doodphace

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/19/12
Posts: 1719

3/27/13 2:51:14 PM#119
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by doodphace
Originally posted by MindTrigger
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by MindTrigger

 

There is very little accumulated "mmo skill" that would make fighting mobs easier, and it's nothing a brand new player couldn't figure out immediately if they bother to read and understand the skills they are using. Hell, I don't even bust out a spreadsheet and do the math on builds like some do, because there's no reason to.  These games are easier.


 

Really? Show me a brand new max-level player who can raid hard mode effectively.

The point of the article is not that there is no easy content in MMO, it is that there is difficult content, and people ignoring the challenges when they are complaining about games being "too easy".

Of course it is easy if you don't even try the challenging content. Go do all the challenging content ... if that is still too easy, come back .. and may be then you have some credibility to rant.

Most people don't raid.  Period.  We know this from statistics of MMOs like WoW.  Raiding is like a second job, and most people simply re-roll in these games instead, which is another reason why everyone is getting bored with the same old end-game raid design.

The point is that the games should have some challenging content in-world too, not just faceroll gameplay that any half-awake idiot can do because their character is so overpowered, or hard-mode scripted raid content.

Actually in WoW, most people do raid.....its the hardmodes that very few people do (hense the point of the article). LFR was a great addition in that sense.

Actually I don't think thats true at all.  Even with LFR using WoWprogress, depending on the numbers you use show that between 25,000 and 60,000 guilds have completed a raid,  Average guild size is about 25 (yes there are many more, yes there are many less as there are both 25 and 10 man raids), 

This is 1.5 million, which is only 15% of the games population.

Yes I know these are not exact number, they are very very rough numbers, but they are the only actual numbers we have to go on.

Even give a 100% fault with this, that is still only 30%.

Most accounts in WoW do not raid, or even have a max level character.

WoW progress is not tracking individual LFR progress, it tracks full Guild run Normal and heroic kills

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4916

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

3/27/13 2:55:35 PM#120
Originally posted by doodphace
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by doodphace
Originally posted by MindTrigger
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by MindTrigger

 

There is very little accumulated "mmo skill" that would make fighting mobs easier, and it's nothing a brand new player couldn't figure out immediately if they bother to read and understand the skills they are using. Hell, I don't even bust out a spreadsheet and do the math on builds like some do, because there's no reason to.  These games are easier.


 

Really? Show me a brand new max-level player who can raid hard mode effectively.

The point of the article is not that there is no easy content in MMO, it is that there is difficult content, and people ignoring the challenges when they are complaining about games being "too easy".

Of course it is easy if you don't even try the challenging content. Go do all the challenging content ... if that is still too easy, come back .. and may be then you have some credibility to rant.

Most people don't raid.  Period.  We know this from statistics of MMOs like WoW.  Raiding is like a second job, and most people simply re-roll in these games instead, which is another reason why everyone is getting bored with the same old end-game raid design.

The point is that the games should have some challenging content in-world too, not just faceroll gameplay that any half-awake idiot can do because their character is so overpowered, or hard-mode scripted raid content.

Actually in WoW, most people do raid.....its the hardmodes that very few people do (hense the point of the article). LFR was a great addition in that sense.

Actually I don't think thats true at all.  Even with LFR using WoWprogress, depending on the numbers you use show that between 25,000 and 60,000 guilds have completed a raid,  Average guild size is about 25 (yes there are many more, yes there are many less as there are both 25 and 10 man raids), 

This is 1.5 million, which is only 15% of the games population.

Yes I know these are not exact number, they are very very rough numbers, but they are the only actual numbers we have to go on.

Even give a 100% fault with this, that is still only 30%.

Most accounts in WoW do not raid, or even have a max level character.

WoW progress is not tracking individual LFR progress, it tracks full Guild run Normal and heroic kills

ah, my mistake.  Well I'll say the number is a bit higher, but still content the majority, as in over 50%, don't raid.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

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