Trending Games | ArcheAge | Rift | World of Warcraft | Swordsman

  Network:  FPSguru RTSguru
Login:  Password:   Remember?  
Show Quick Gamelist Jump to Random Game
Members:2,775,063 Users Online:0
Games:722  Posts:6,189,689
Rift (Rift)
Trion Worlds | Official Site
MMORPG | Genre:Fantasy | Status:Final  (rel 03/01/11)  | Pub:Trion Worlds
PVP:Yes | Distribution:Download | Retail Price:Free | Pay Type:Free | Monthly Fee:Free
System Req: PC | Out of date info? Let us know!

General Discussion Forum » The Pub at MMORPG.COM » Dispelling the 'easy' myth

19 Pages « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 » Last Search
362 posts found
  Waterlily

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/26/08
Posts: 2882

3/26/13 5:40:57 PM#61
Originally posted by Sephiroso
Originally posted by Waterlily

Sorry I should have known someone would be offended. 

WoW, Tera and Hello Kitty are hard too. Every game is hard now, no one QQ. You are all winners today.  Group hug.

He's right, the stuff you listed isn't hard. It's just tedious bullshit you had to deal with back then.

 

What's hard is killing Lich King on Heroic Mode without using 30% buff. What's hard was finishing Naxx in Vanilla WoW. The fact that you group WoW and Tera together shows you're just a flamer.

Someone needs a story about WoW and Everquest.

WoW was made by Everquest players, by players from Legacy of Steel. LoS was a medicore guild that had a lot of QQ players on the forums of Everquest. They were ranked somehwere as guild 50, top ones were Tide, Darkwind, Ceistus Dei Aetherius and a few others I don't remember.

They croked somewhere in the middle of Gates of Discord (same place Fires of Heaven and annoying loudmouth Furer croked).

Gates of Discord, at the time, was responsible for the death of many guilds because the expansion was deemed impossible, but with the new level uncap from Omens of War, most guilds went back to Gates of Discord to kill tunat.

The guilds that  croked on EQ and QQ'd and bailed on Everquest went to WoW, and some of Legacy of Steel are the creators of WoW, to make, as they called it "a more friendly Everquest".

WoW is as hard as jello. You need to understand the history behind WoW before you can understand why WoW players are looked upon as noob. The creators and many of the early players of WoW were people who were upset that Gates of Discord could not be beaten by any guild and they quit, while other guilds kept at it, finally about a year after the initial launch of Gates of Discord, guilds started enterting Tacvi, by then WoW had already launched and most casual guilds and their players had already left for greener and easier pastures, namely WoW.

 

While some players try to write off brutal content as "timesinks", anyone who was around playing at that time could see how much more casual WoW was when it launched, the whole idea of WoW was to make an MMO that could support a casual demographic, and they did, quite successfully so.

  Everwest

Novice Member

Joined: 2/28/13
Posts: 75

3/26/13 6:19:28 PM#62

Challenge has been known to be one of the most vital variables to the success of any kind of leisure experience for decades now.  Not just gaming, either, but nearly every form of active entertainment.  But just because you make something difficult enough does not mean that people will select it or play long enough to reach it.  There has to be a sense of reward for completing the difficult content, whether that is a feeling of accomplishment or an in-game incentive. 

MMORPGs are especially bad at this.  They'll design a very limited amount of difficult content, or they'll fail to give most players any real incentive to do it.  An encounter will only drop an item needed by 25% of the players, or it will drop nothing special at all (e.g., GW2).  Expecting players just to play it because it's hard is asinine.  Difficulty is only one piece of the puzzle.

  free2play

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/13/05
Posts: 1781

3/26/13 6:36:09 PM#63
Originally posted by nariusseldon

http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/03/26/the-soapbox-dispelling-the-easy-myth/#continued

"This isn't a WoW-specific issue or even one limited to MMOs. Gamers from all disciplines seem to be fond of complaining about games being easy without actually attempting anything to accomplish difficult. Big Huge Games noted in a GDC 2012 talk that "too easy" was a common complaint about Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning, even though two-thirds of its players completed it on the easiest difficulty setting. BioWare's awesome infographic for Mass Effect 3, shown at last week's PAX East, showed that only four percent of players completed the game on "Insanity" difficulty. The "hardcore" in text don't seem to be all that "hardcore" in practice."

"So the next time you find yourself typing "too easy" in a comment box, maybe you should consider whether you've actually tried the hard stuff before you click the post button."

This is so true. Many other examples. WOW's famous Sunwell is done only by 2%. Even when LFR first came out, the "normal" mode is done only by 4% where LFR is done by a whopping 35% of the players.

Take D3 as another example. You can make the game highly difficulty with perma death. How many kill Diablo on MP10 hard core?

 

 

I'm quite sure I pointed this out on here and a number of other forums several times in the past. It's forum smack, it always has been. Most people who claim hardcore are the mod users, sploiters and in general cheat their way through content using wiki and any means possible to hit that I-Win button. Then cry at Devs for letting them.

  Cephus404

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3604

3/26/13 7:59:58 PM#64
Originally posted by Squeak69
i dont mind easy to be honest, but then i dont mind challengeing. i miss fun., what happend to games being about haveing fun instead of hard.

Ding ding ding ding!  We have a winnah!

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None

  Cephus404

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3604

3/26/13 8:01:01 PM#65
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Squeak69
i dont mind easy to be honest, but then i dont mind challengeing. i miss fun., what happend to games being about haveing fun instead of hard.

Fun is subjective.

All games I played are fun ... otherwise why would i be playing them?

The problem is, there are clearly people playing MMOs today who are not having fun but they refuse to stop playing them because it's all they know how to do.

That's just sad.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None

  Cephus404

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3604

3/26/13 8:04:26 PM#66
Originally posted by doodphace
Originally posted by BadSpock

I've found a lot of people who say MMOs are too "easy" are 10+ year veterans who, after this amout of time, should damn well be quite skilled at playing them.

If it is still "hard" after 10 years, you're doing it wrong...

 

Even 10+ year vets can find something hard. Have a look at DREAM Paragon, the number 1 WoW guild in the world. A month into the new raid tier and they still haven't cleared all 13 heroic bosses. Keep in mind these are the best raiders in the world, with the best gear, are sponsored, and raid 40+ hours a week.

All games, GW2, WoW, etc, have easy content, and hard content.

I'm sorry, maybe it's just me, but that sounds utterly pathetic.  What a bunch of losers.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None

  FromHell

Novice Member

Joined: 11/10/12
Posts: 1338

3/26/13 8:12:34 PM#67

Most MMOs are too easy in terms of handholding, marking things on the map and having blinking items so you neither have to think or look for clues so people can watch American Idol while playing.

lowest common denominator game design

 

those types of MMOs bore me to tears

Secrets of Dragon´s Spine Trailer.. ! :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwT9cFVQCMw

Best MMOs ever played: Ultima, EvE, SW Galaxies, Age of Conan, The Secret World
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2X_SbZCHpc&t=21s
.


.
The Return of ELITE !

  ClaudeSuamOram

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 134

3/26/13 9:10:47 PM#68
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Squeak69
i dont mind easy to be honest, but then i dont mind challengeing. i miss fun., what happend to games being about haveing fun instead of hard.

Fun is subjective.

All games I played are fun ... otherwise why would i be playing them?

The problem is, there are clearly people playing MMOs today who are not having fun but they refuse to stop playing them because it's all they know how to do.

That's just sad.

Says the apparent psychology major.

Different tastes, different reasons. Games can have challenge, puzzles, and yes...even make you use that spongy material in between the ears and be fun. It doesn't all have to be mindless and effortless to be considered fun.

  ClaudeSuamOram

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 134

3/26/13 9:11:49 PM#69
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by doodphace
Originally posted by BadSpock

I've found a lot of people who say MMOs are too "easy" are 10+ year veterans who, after this amout of time, should damn well be quite skilled at playing them.

If it is still "hard" after 10 years, you're doing it wrong...

 

Even 10+ year vets can find something hard. Have a look at DREAM Paragon, the number 1 WoW guild in the world. A month into the new raid tier and they still haven't cleared all 13 heroic bosses. Keep in mind these are the best raiders in the world, with the best gear, are sponsored, and raid 40+ hours a week.

All games, GW2, WoW, etc, have easy content, and hard content.

I'm sorry, maybe it's just me, but that sounds utterly pathetic.  What a bunch of losers.

This is one time I agree with Cephus404. That is just sad.

  GGrimm

Novice Member

Joined: 3/12/13
Posts: 50

3/26/13 11:03:09 PM#70

One thing i don't remember hearing anyone say when I was playing EVE Online was "This game is too easy".

  Nihilist

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/08/04
Posts: 555

3/26/13 11:11:38 PM#71

When people refer to 'easy' they are talking about their first 30 days or however it long it takes to get to level cap.

Sure WoW may have challenging raids, but it requires someone to play for many, many hours of quest grind gameplay which involves countless kill 10 easy monster and fed ex quests that require very lttle thought or skill.

 

Its not like dark souls where from nearly the moment a character is created all enemies are dangerous and there are tons of traps that can 1 shot. Death also has significant consequences.

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 2927

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

3/26/13 11:20:25 PM#72

Easy is a comparative term. Without an associated comparison, it means nothing. It is also a subjective term, being different for everyone. No one else can tell me what I find easy or hard. Only *I* can determine this for myself.

Is getting to the moon easy? Many would answer, "Compared to what?" Needs a comparative to say yes or no.

Hard Mode in gaming 95% (made up number) of the time equates to the player doing half (or less) damage to a monster with double (or more) life than normal setting and/or increasing the number of opponents. It is a rare occasion that monsters get "smarter" in any hard mode setting. Hard mode is simply gimping the player to make it tougher, not changing the game at all. I "gimp" myself in almost every game I play by not grabbing the best gear, but what fits into my concept of my character. "Gimping" does not equate to "hard mode" for me.

And the above just covers combat, albeit 85% or more of most games' interaction.

An NPC with a quest mark on them is easier than an NPC that does not. A marker on a map is easier than no marker. Heck, a map is easier than no map at all. Fast travel is easier than no fast travel. Auto-replenished stats is easier than slow or even no auto-replenishing.

I laugh at players who spout how "easy" a game is when their first action in a game is to find the easiest route via the internet instead of figuring it out for themselves.

When all is said and done, is fighting "The Sleepers" in EQ1 harder than any "hard mode" raid in WoW? Answers will vary depending on the player. A lot factors into each individual response.

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  User Deleted
3/26/13 11:27:25 PM#73
Originally posted by GGrimm

One thing i don't remember hearing anyone say when I was playing EVE Online was "This game is too easy".

 

*BIG GRIN*  Okay, now that post got a chuckle out of me.

 

  Consequence

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/29/04
Posts: 358

3/26/13 11:30:06 PM#74

At the time I quit wow, there was not 1 single bit of diffcult content I had not completed. I played that game a couple years and can honestly say that the game is absolutely easy.  

 

Everything I had not completed in the game was simply a matter of doing things repeatedly for several months in order to achive. Repetition is not the same thing as hard. 

 

 

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 2927

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

3/26/13 11:59:45 PM#75


Originally posted by Waterlily
WoW was made by Everquest players, by players from Legacy of Steel. LoS was a medicore guild that had a lot of QQ players on the forums of Everquest. They were ranked somehwere as guild 50, top ones were Tide, Darkwind, Ceistus Dei Aetherius and a few others I don't remember.

<snip>

The guilds that  croked on EQ and QQ'd and bailed on Everquest went to WoW, and some of Legacy of Steel are the creators of WoW, to make, as they called it "a more friendly Everquest".



Not to rain your EQ1 parade, but GoD released in early 2004 (about the time *I* left EQ1) while WoW released later in 2004. How did a bunch of "EQ QQers" from the GoD expansion help in the creation of WoW? Or did WoW take a matter of months to develop and release?

WoW did have some former EQ1 players that helped in development (begun in 1999), yes. The reasons they left EQ1 helped create what would make WoW, WoW. I prefer EQ1 over WoW, but misinformation is never a good thing.

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  Quirhid

Novice Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5492

I dare you to pin a label on me.

3/27/13 3:09:19 AM#76
I've never thought MMORPG PvE has ever been all that hard and I suspect the holy trinity is partial to blame; it makes combat too simple.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Xthos

Elite Member

Joined: 4/18/10
Posts: 2627

3/27/13 6:21:19 AM#77

Harder level dungeons and such do not make up for a whole game, I am not a big fan of dungeons having 2-3 levels of difficulty, it just feels like cheap 'content'.  Some games change the dungeons some on higher difficulties, but a lot don't.

 

I didn't see much of a case in the OP's message, a lot of small bits of games being cited....So what if 2% of a game, or 5% of a game is 'hard', and 95-98% is 'easy', or 'too easy'....2-5% doesn't make the rest of a game challenging/fun imo.  A lot of games have gotten away from punishing mechanic, like mobs running and grabbing friends if you didn't stop them from getting away.

 

Games that make it not matter if you die, so people just die to easy travel, or not care if they die...I am more into something if I feel like I lose something (doesn't have to be huge, 10-15 minutes of time getting xp back or whatever, I wouldn't say is too punishing) if I die. 

 

The masses cry if things get difficult, and the companies usually cave and change things for the masses.  Everyone wanted to be able to solo on every class, people want solo or 2-3 person dungeons/raids that give higher loot, wanting to be the 'hero', and it isn't heroic if you aren't able to smash everything.

 

 

Now this isn't every game, but I would say the majority, need to keep the ADD crowd happy.

 

  Elikal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/09/06
Posts: 8067

“No path is darker then when your eyes are shut.” -Flemeth

3/27/13 8:48:12 AM#78
Originally posted by BadSpock

I've found a lot of people who say MMOs are too "easy" are 10+ year veterans who, after this amout of time, should damn well be quite skilled at playing them.

If it is still "hard" after 10 years, you're doing it wrong...

 

Even for someone who damns logic, this is too... illogical. ;)

But seriously.

I am playing computer games for ~25 years, and MMO since SWG days. Still, I find some MMOs or some MMO gameplay subsystems too... tiresome, shall we say. Easy and difficult are not so fitting words when it comes to MMOs. I said this 100 times already. The only penality a MMO can impose on a player is time. Death penalities are *always* time penalities of a sort, and that is if anything tiresome.

Then there is twitch and attention difficult. I find Neverwinter difficult, because I am a mouse clicker. (Yeah sue me...) I really tried to re-learn to keyboard, and in some games like SWTOR I can keyboard click. But Neverwinter is just too hectic. Ask me why, but I find the controls difficult. They tire me, wear me out. I end up getting into a button mashing frenzy in no time, because the ton of things I have to keep in mind all the the same time simply overwhelms me.

There is no "wrong" way to play. The very idea is absurd, because it assume there is or should be only ONE way to play games. Logic again.

 

You see, there are as many ways to play games as there are gamers, and I vividly passionately think GAMES should adapt to PLAYERS, not the other way around. The sabbath was made for men, not man made for the sabbath, to quote the Saviour. I want to decide my own way, timing and method of difficult/easy. I don't want to be shoehorned into someone else's definition of easy/difficult or someone else's playstyle.

 

So YES to the OP of the thread. Anyone who says WOW is easy is bullshitting. Sorry, but even WOW has difficult stuff. Or shall we say it had, I don't play it anymore now. But I am quite sure it still has hard to attain stuff. So even after ~10 year of MMOing, I don't find MMOs easy. Though I partially know it is because my patience has grown shorter. I used to be much more fail-repeat tolerant in the past, as I am now. But there is difficulty. It depends where you look and what you background and way to play is. I am really so TIRED with those crowds calling for "make it more difficult". Neverwinter is the example from recent. Potion drops rates used to be good, then the "TOO EASY" crowd came, and now its unplayable. I am really tired to see every MMO and every game soured for me by the "too easy" crowd. If you want difficult and harsh, you are free to penalize yourself. Throw away the potions. Delete your characters as permadeath. Nobody forces your to use all the comfort stuff. But WHY in Gods name do you always have to make it hard and unplayable for OTHERS, too? WHY are you never satisfied until EVERYONE is forced down your demanding difficulty setting, until you ruined all games for people who play for relaxation and escapism?? I am SO TIRED and MAD about this crowd, but I know for some mysterious reason, game companies always listen to this tiny hardcore minority.

A forum is a place where people can discuss about different opinions. So what I don't get is, how people react offended when they come to a forum and then find... well different opinions. If a different opinion offends you, what are you even doing here?

  rojoArcueid

Elite Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 5129

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

3/27/13 8:54:29 AM#79

hey OP

everyone is hardcore on the the internet. Playing the actual game is a totally different matter lol

My endgame begins with character creation and ends with a new mmorpg

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5575

3/27/13 9:00:02 AM#80
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

Easy is a comparative term. Without an associated comparison, it means nothing. It is also a subjective term, being different for everyone. No one else can tell me what I find easy or hard. Only *I* can determine this for myself.

Is getting to the moon easy? Many would answer, "Compared to what?" Needs a comparative to say yes or no.

Hard Mode in gaming 95% (made up number) of the time equates to the player doing half (or less) damage to a monster with double (or more) life than normal setting and/or increasing the number of opponents. It is a rare occasion that monsters get "smarter" in any hard mode setting. Hard mode is simply gimping the player to make it tougher, not changing the game at all. I "gimp" myself in almost every game I play by not grabbing the best gear, but what fits into my concept of my character. "Gimping" does not equate to "hard mode" for me.

And the above just covers combat, albeit 85% or more of most games' interaction.

An NPC with a quest mark on them is easier than an NPC that does not. A marker on a map is easier than no marker. Heck, a map is easier than no map at all. Fast travel is easier than no fast travel. Auto-replenished stats is easier than slow or even no auto-replenishing.

I laugh at players who spout how "easy" a game is when their first action in a game is to find the easiest route via the internet instead of figuring it out for themselves.

When all is said and done, is fighting "The Sleepers" in EQ1 harder than any "hard mode" raid in WoW? Answers will vary depending on the player. A lot factors into each individual response.

This is a good post Al.

There is also this odd idea we (as in the entire genre - developers and players) think challenging should equate to rolling your face in razor wire and then we try and shove all sense of reward and satisfaction behind that.

I think a mind wipe so people could play an mmo like it was their first time again, would be easier to build than a new mmo people here would actually like. - DamonVile

19 Pages « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 » Last Search