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General Discussion Forum » The Pub at MMORPG.COM » Dispelling the 'easy' myth

19 Pages « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 » Last Search
362 posts found
  Miblet

Novice Member

Joined: 8/19/10
Posts: 333

3/26/13 3:19:42 PM#41

As has been said difficulty is dependant on the person.

What one finds challenging another might find easy.

 

However for the almost every recently released game the leveling up process isn't so much easy as patronising.

Pretty much every MMO has some form of challenging sontent, just some if harder to find or access.  A lot of people don't want challenge though, they want superiority, they want the content to be just hard enough for them to get that buzz ... yet too hard for others to beat.

  xeniar

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/09/06
Posts: 814

3/26/13 3:23:26 PM#42
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by xeniar
 

well if we talk about uhm SP game difficulty's it seems that normal is becoming more easy. i dont even know what easy is i dare not touch it. and Hard stays hard pretty much. depending on game i geus. but in general games are becoming more easy. 

Is that because i am too good? or the masses wich obviously buy the game just really suck? Im not trying to sound like  a egomaniac here:P

Based on the stat given by the article, most players are not even trying the more difficult settings. Do you beat all your games in "hard"?

All no.

if games are enjoyable yes.

i have the entire Halo series on Legendary, CoD on hardest mode God of war ditto. Some games are not worth to replay hence normal being enough. I have to say tho that the diffrence between hard and normal mode is abit too much. Where normal mode is very easy on hardmode things go batshit crazy. should be a setting inbetween or make normal normal instead of easy.

  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

3/26/13 3:32:45 PM#43
Originally posted by waynejr2

On the other hand, when people talk in terms of time to level, it means something else. IIRC, EQ1 it took 9 months for the first person to reach cap.  Some people are calling it easy when you could level much quicker than that.  It is easier, from a different point of view.  That doesn't mean challenge, it means time committment.

So there are three little quibbles here:

1) the speed at which numbers increase on your character sheet.  Mathematically irrelevent, but it is a part of the illusion of progress a grind provides and so it's fair game to desire that illusion unroll at a diffferent pace.  So I have some sympathy here, even though it doesn't bother me.

2) Diminshed sense of accomplishment (wanting to see the next person "suffer" as much when going through the content).  Personally, I think this serves as a healthy reminder that these are not real life accomplishments, they are entertainment and that ultmately we are doing the grinds because they are there, not because they have real value.

3) the existance of a level cap in the first place.  If you have memories of feeling the level cap was an eternity away (if it existed at all), then this sort of plateau where the criteria for advancement changes from character level to item level or achivement score can be a little jarring.  This is just a matter of finding a smooth transition from the "general leveling" that everyone is expectyed to do to optional "endgame leveling" mechancis.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19811

 
OP  3/26/13 3:38:19 PM#44
Originally posted by xeniar
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by xeniar
 

well if we talk about uhm SP game difficulty's it seems that normal is becoming more easy. i dont even know what easy is i dare not touch it. and Hard stays hard pretty much. depending on game i geus. but in general games are becoming more easy. 

Is that because i am too good? or the masses wich obviously buy the game just really suck? Im not trying to sound like  a egomaniac here:P

Based on the stat given by the article, most players are not even trying the more difficult settings. Do you beat all your games in "hard"?

All no.

if games are enjoyable yes.

i have the entire Halo series on Legendary, CoD on hardest mode God of war ditto. Some games are not worth to replay hence normal being enough. I have to say tho that the diffrence between hard and normal mode is abit too much. Where normal mode is very easy on hardmode things go batshit crazy. should be a setting inbetween or make normal normal instead of easy.

Ah .. ok. If the complaints is that the "normal" mode and "hard" mode has too big of a gap .. then i don't have much to disagree. That is certainly up to the game.

And it is certainly true that more difficulty options, a more gradual curve, is better. Look at D3 .. 10 levels of difficulty (even without factor in hard core) ... and no one can claim there isn't an appropriate level for him-/herself.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19811

 
OP  3/26/13 3:41:24 PM#45
Originally posted by maplestone
Originally posted by waynejr2

On the other hand, when people talk in terms of time to level, it means something else. IIRC, EQ1 it took 9 months for the first person to reach cap.  Some people are calling it easy when you could level much quicker than that.  It is easier, from a different point of view.  That doesn't mean challenge, it means time committment.

So there are three little quibbles here:

1) the speed at which numbers increase on your character sheet.  Mathematically irrelevent, but it is a part of the illusion of progress a grind provides and so it's fair game to desire that illusion unroll at a diffferent pace.  So I have some sympathy here, even though it doesn't bother me.

2) Diminshed sense of accomplishment (wanting to see the next person "suffer" as much when going through the content).  Personally, I think this serves as a healthy reminder that these are not real life accomplishments, they are entertainment and that ultmately we are doing the grinds because they are there, not because they have real value.

3) the existance of a level cap in the first place.  If you have memories of feeling the level cap was an eternity away (if it existed at all), then this sort of plateau where the criteria for advancement changes from character level to item level or achivement score can be a little jarring.  This is just a matter of finding a smooth transition from the "general leveling" that everyone is expectyed to do to optional "endgame leveling" mechancis.

None of these is what i would consider "hard". I suppose it is a matter of definition. In the context of this thread, "easy" is the opposite of "not challenging" ... not the opposite of "taking a long time".

None of the stuff you ddescribe has anything to do with challenge. A long leveling curve is just that .. long. It can be mind numbing easy that you kill the same easy mob 10000000 times instead of 100.

 

  laokoko

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/14/09
Posts: 1916

3/26/13 4:00:24 PM#46

The point is not about the difficulty.  THe point is those difficult content people just dont' want to do it.  Take for example WOW.  The reason those EQ or UO or DF players think wow is a carebear game because they are not looking for a difficult "raiding game".  Those players are looking for a difficult "open world game".

And for games that have adjustable difficulty.  Usually people just set it to the lowest setting and see the content and that's it.  Take GW2 for example.  There are dungeon with 80 different difficulty.  But for me I just try the easiest difficulty and see the content and it is good enough for me. 

The truth is people will always cheat and take short cut if they can.  And if the developer give them the chance to set difficulty "to easy".  There is no point trying the harder diffiuclty.

  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

3/26/13 4:03:28 PM#47
Originally posted by nariusseldon

None of these is what i would consider "hard".

That's fine, but irrelevent.  

If you want to understand why someone is saying what they are saying, you need to consider the possibility that the person you are talking to is using a slightly different dictionary than you are.

( at least that's my attitude - I don't feel I can control anyone's use of words, I can only try to understand them and sometimes the most bitter flamewars come down to just a failure to communicate, leading each side to be arguing with a strawman who isn't really there )

 

 

  ZombieKen

Novice Member

Joined: 3/30/10
Posts: 4410

Zombie - Dead but still moving.

3/26/13 4:07:15 PM#48

There is no "easy" myth.  MMORPGs are time consuming, not difficult.  And now with the wave of convenience, they're not even all that time consuming any longer.

 

 

MSOTSG with PPE : Massively Single-player Online Task-driven Storyline Game with Purchasable Performance Enhancements *grin*

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19811

 
OP  3/26/13 4:08:18 PM#49
Originally posted by maplestone
Originally posted by nariusseldon

None of these is what i would consider "hard".

That's fine, but rrelevent.  

If you want to understand why someone is saying what they are saying, you need to consider the possibility that the person you are talking to is using a slightly different dictionary than you are.

 

 

While that is true, and i understand your point, i also don't see any reason not to call it out, and expose the fact that that is not many would consider "hard".

I think a clarity of ideas .. separating "hard" and 'take a long time" is useful because they are clearly different concepts.

  Yamota

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/05/03
Posts: 6509

"I fight so you don't have to."

3/26/13 4:08:31 PM#50
Originally posted by BadSpock

I've found a lot of people who say MMOs are too "easy" are 10+ year veterans who, after this amout of time, should damn well be quite skilled at playing them.

If it is still "hard" after 10 years, you're doing it wrong...

 

Flawed logic. I have been gaming for 25+ years, so does that mean all games should be easy for me?

If you spent 10 years on the same game then yeah, it should be easy, but games can be different. I say can because so many MMOs are cookie cutter WoW clones but that is the choice of the developers. 

So in the end it is the developers who decide how hard a game should be and frankly I feel MMOs have degenerated to such an extent that most single player games are harder. All just to cater to "casual" gamers.

  Sephiroso

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/01/05
Posts: 1056

3/26/13 4:09:02 PM#51

i like how OP article talks about sunwell in WoW how only 2% people did it or some shit. Sunwell is just 1 raid in WoW, and raiding is just 1 aspect of WoW.

 

Just because 1 raid or 1 aspect of a mmo is "hard" does not mean the whole game is appropriately difficult. This is the main issue that people have with WoW when they say its to easy. They're talking about WoW as a whole, not just raids.

 

Console games are pretty much static in difficulty across the board. Difficulty in leveling up, killing bosses, quests, whatever they're all pretty consistent in the mode you choose, "Easy, Normal, Hard, Legendary" etc. But mmos are vastly different. Leveling will be so easy you actually lose IQ in the process, yet get to 60 and raids are so hard they make you lose your hair. In another, you might find leveling to be somewhat difficult but once you get 60, everything is just a zergfest and its easy to join the zerg and faceroll everything.


Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19811

 
OP  3/26/13 4:11:23 PM#52
Originally posted by laokoko

 

And for games that have adjustable difficulty.  Usually people just set it to the lowest setting and see the content and that's it.  Take GW2 for example.  There are dungeon with 80 different difficulty.  But for me I just try the easiest difficulty and see the content and it is good enough for me. 

The truth is people will always cheat and take short cut if they can.  And if the developer give them the chance to set difficulty "to easy".  There is no point trying the harder diffiuclty.

That is certainly not true for everyone .. may be even most, but not all players.

Just go to mmo-champion and you will see all the news about world first of this raid and that raid. There are also news about the race to level the first hard core character to paragon 100 in d3.

There are those who strives for a  challenge.

Personally i set my challenge level depends on the game and mood. If i want non-stress relaxation, i will do farming in D3 where i can just laser down all the mobs .. with an occasional challenge from an elite pack. If i want some challenge just to show that i have a powerful char and know how to play, i go to solo an uber boss.

But i get your point, i do play some SP games on easy .. jsut to see all the content.

  Ezhae

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/03/06
Posts: 734

3/26/13 4:11:35 PM#53
Originally posted by Squeak69
i dont mind easy to be honest, but then i dont mind challengeing. i miss fun., what happend to games being about haveing fun instead of hard.

But for some of us challenge is a big part of the fun. 

I'm lazy. I'm not going ot deny it. I'm so lazy I will try to abuse my lazyness in games by going for the most basic, mindless buttonmash approach just to get stuff done. If the game doesn't punish me for that lazyness I get bored rather fast. I want to be ocnstantlyc hallenged, frustrated, annoyed and pushed further. I want th ebig bad mob I'm fighting to seriously hurt/kill my character if I mess up. If I don't get this and can justs tand and whack... there is no fun for me.

  deniter

Elite Member

Joined: 9/06/08
Posts: 630

3/26/13 4:25:32 PM#54
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by azmundai

maybe there could be difficulty servers?

Or just more difficulty level. It is not like difficulty option is a new thing, even in MMOs. In WOW,you can raid LFR, normal and hard. LFR is easy as pie, and hard is .. well .. you need to practice and run it as a full time job to beat.

In my opinion, having more than one difficulty level for raiding is not good enough. There's so much more in an MMO than only raiding.

Leveling should take longer and mobs should hit harder to make gear even worth an effort to acquire. Dungeons should be challenging enough to promote planning and team work, of which MMOs should be all about in the first place. If a game makes you improve your gear constantly in order to allow you to progress, you have just found there's more in a game than just an end-game.

Someone on this forum said most people didn't care for raiding in Vanilla and TBC. I was one of them and the reason i never really raided was not because the raids were too hard, but because I didn't want to schedulize my life and show up every saturday and sunday at exactly 6:15 to maintain my raid spot. And I didn't have to, since WoW offered lots of stuff to do for a person who didn't like / want to raid.

So, today's WoW gives you a short and effortless leveling experience, ending up to an end-game where you can choose an LFR or hard mode raiding, first one being a-mindless-zerg-aoe-everything-down-and-collect-the-fat-loot -experince and the latter pretty much the same i chose to pass in earlier expansions as well.

That's why we need a totally different server for difficulty levels, and not just different raids.

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5544

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

3/26/13 4:31:26 PM#55

I've been playing games all my life and I can't remember when I've played a game on the "easy"-setting. Usually I'm comfortable setting the difficulty on "hard" even when I'm playing an entirely new game to me.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Purutzil

Elite Member

Joined: 10/02/11
Posts: 2861

The Critical Hit Pretzel!

3/26/13 4:34:12 PM#56

Theres times when games are to easy though, but yes... most cases players complain 'to easy' with content, particularly the begining contact when your just starting the game. Its silly how people just try to justify content being easy without going through to the end using 'tutorial' content essencially to judge difficulty of the game throughout.

 

At the same time,  I do see people using the excuse also of claiming difficulty for abstract things not really 'meant' for the game by design. Many of them could be considered (to reference old games) beating Legend of Zelda without the sword and stuff that isn't meant to be done in its design processes that way.

 

The 'to easy' BS is always dumb, just don't go about using stupid reasons to 'justify' them being wrong cause it just ends up empowering them more and leading to more stupidty. If anything point out their lack of doing top difficulty or the fact they haven't gotten to more difficult parts of the game. Using abstract reasoning only helps to fuel to make it look like they are 'right' even if they aren't.

  Waterlily

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/26/08
Posts: 2892

3/26/13 4:38:02 PM#57

I have only played one hard MMO. Everquest. There must have been a few others early on.

Hard was playing for 24 hours to guard your spawn with your guild, hard was running in my undies gathering my 10 corpses and QQ'ing to my guild I lost 4 levels, hard was losing my brand new weapon because my corpse rotted.

WoW hard, lol

  Xiaoki

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/07/04
Posts: 2438

3/26/13 5:20:14 PM#58


Originally posted by Waterlily
I have only played one hard MMO. Everquest. There must have been a few others early on.

Hard was playing for 24 hours to guard your spawn with your guild, hard was running in my undies gathering my 10 corpses and QQ'ing to my guild I lost 4 levels, hard was losing my brand new weapon because my corpse rotted.

WoW hard, lol



And what we have here is a classic example of the "hardcore" thinking that "time spent = hard".


I was going to post that a lot of old school hardcore players mistakenly believe that time spent equates to challenge but I dont have to with such a perfect example.


Thank you.

  Waterlily

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/26/08
Posts: 2892

3/26/13 5:26:48 PM#59

Sorry I should have known someone would be offended. 

WoW, Tera and Hello Kitty are hard too. Every game is hard now, no one QQ. You are all winners today.  Group hug.

  Sephiroso

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/01/05
Posts: 1056

3/26/13 5:34:09 PM#60
Originally posted by Waterlily

Sorry I should have known someone would be offended. 

WoW, Tera and Hello Kitty are hard too. Every game is hard now, no one QQ. You are all winners today.  Group hug.

He's right, the stuff you listed isn't hard. It's just tedious bullshit you had to deal with back then.

 

What's hard is killing Lich King on Heroic Mode without using 30% buff. What's hard was finishing Naxx in Vanilla WoW. The fact that you group WoW and Tera together shows you're just a flamer.


Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

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