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244 posts found
  GGrimm

Novice Member

Joined: 3/12/13
Posts: 50

3/26/13 6:47:56 PM#81
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by GGrimm
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by SysFail
 

A virtual world will do poorly because?

Because it is make-believe, play, a toy - NOT a game. Roleplaying or make-believe has never been all that popular. Don't ask me why, because I don't know. This is a crude generalization ofcourse, but games that don't have a point other than to "be there and live there" are not as popular as games that give you an objective to accomplish.

I also think you are grossly undermining the virtues of World of Warcraft in order to draw conclusions which suit you better. And take this from someone who has never been all that interested in WoW. WoW made many things well. It was much, much more than just timing.

You don't need to piss on roleplaying just because you don't like it. I'm not sure where you get the idea that make-believe isn't "all that popular". Are you aware that there are hundreds of millions of people who watch people roleplay every day? Television and movies is just make-believe. In addition, I don't think people are looking for JUST a virtual world, there's plenty of room to incorporate flexibility for a variety of playstyles within any sandbox. It's a design issue.

One of the reasons you probably don't see more people do in MMOs it is because there are bullies who like to sh*t on people who roleplay. Or they will make a name like "leetkillerlolz" partially BECAUSE they know it will screw with the roleplayers.

What? I'm not pissing on roleplaying - I've been a DM for years myself! All I'm doing is making observations.

And TV and movies are nothing like roleplaying - there's no connection.

I'm not sure why you don't see how an actor pretending to play a role isn't role-playing but w/e. IMO, people DO like role-playing to the degree that they are willing to pay $10-$50 just watch "good" role players (actors) do their thing.

The salient issue here is that a good sandbox, like any other good MMORPG should and will provide features for people who enjoy roleplaying in their RPGs.

 

  Aeolyn

Novice Member

Joined: 11/23/08
Posts: 136

3/26/13 6:49:05 PM#82
Originally posted by XAPKen

When we get a medeival fantasy virtual world simulation, that doesn't revolve around PKs, let me know.

 

This ^.

  jpnz

Elite Member

Joined: 6/29/06
Posts: 3563

3/26/13 6:52:36 PM#83
It's not really being told what to do. Its the difference between reading a book and writing a book. Far more people would rather read than write. I am one of those people.

Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 6978

3/26/13 7:03:25 PM#84


Originally posted by SysFail

as it looks as though developers are embracing the idea of the sandbox


...same developers currently working on themepark games? :D


There is no better, working and proven concept. Themeparks are going to stay, period.

What we might see more is some changes in endgame, less gear treadmill, more re-playable content.

Action, fast paced game play and accessible fun is where money are at the moment.

  GGrimm

Novice Member

Joined: 3/12/13
Posts: 50

3/26/13 7:07:59 PM#85
Originally posted by FromHell
Originally posted by UOvet
 

Most people actually want to be told what to do, where to go, and how to do it. This is why themeparks are popular. They don't want to think. I don't know why anyone wouldn't want a sandbox. Freedom of choice is what comes to my mind.

a lot of truth in this post. Maybe most gamers feel more comfortable with handholding and restrictions in the common themepark MMO.

I'm not sure whether MOST gamers want to be told what to do, but I do think that many gamers are getting tired of that mode of play and are realizing that only way to achieve truely unexpected gameplay is within a sandbox system.

  GGrimm

Novice Member

Joined: 3/12/13
Posts: 50

3/26/13 7:14:57 PM#86
Originally posted by Gdemami

Originally posted by SysFail

as it looks as though developers are embracing the idea of the sandbox


...same developers currently working on themepark games? :D
There is no better, working and proven concept. Themeparks are going to stay, period.

What we might see more is some changes in endgame, less gear treadmill, more re-playable content.

Action, fast paced game play and accessible fun is where money are at the moment.

Developers have wasted hundreds of millions of dollars trying to make the next great themepark game. To what success? Why would they want to spend good money after bad?

  Yalexy

Novice Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 1020

3/26/13 7:52:14 PM#87

I enjoy both. Readily available themepark-content like quests and raids aswell as sandbox-content like open world FFA PvP.
PvE is just as important as PvP to me, but the PvP has to have meaning, like fighting over ressources and control them and the PvE has to be challenging and interesting.

A mix of TSW and EvE Online, where you have the raids and quests of TSW on one hand and the playerdriven market, crafting and open world FFA PvP of EvE on the other hand would be the perfect MMO for me.
A very cruicial point is, that both of these MMOs don't require any alts, as you can train everything with a single character.

I'm waiting for ArcheAge to be released in the west, as this seems to get somewhat close to what I'm looking for, allthough it lacks the freeform character-progression of TSW or EvE Online.

  User Deleted
3/26/13 8:09:32 PM#88
Haven't posted here to often lately as I haven't seen any games lately that could hold my interest let alone have enough time to play. My ideal game, would be a game similar to SWTOR with a lot more openess to it. I love the story driven content that keeps me playing and driving me through the game at a rate a can enjoy and in away where I am not necessarily completely surpassed by power gamers as I do not have the time to power game anymore to much going on in reality. I did enjoy a lot of the Sandbox features in SWG but the complete lack of content and what seemed like pointless grinding and broken zones etc at launch made me wonder why the hell I was paying for a second job......
  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5540

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

3/27/13 3:21:09 AM#89
Originally posted by SysFail
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by SysFail
 

A virtual world will do poorly because?

Because it is make-believe, play, a toy - NOT a game. Roleplaying or make-believe has never been all that popular. Don't ask me why, because I don't know. This is a crude generalization ofcourse, but games that don't have a point other than to "be there and live there" are not as popular as games that give you an objective to accomplish.

 

I also think you are grossly undermining the virtues of World of Warcraft in order to draw conclusions which suit you better. And take this from someone who has never been all that interested in WoW. WoW made many things well. It was much, much more than just timing.

 

You're clearly a WoW player, which is fine, that game has given many newbies the platform to experience MMO's, which of course is a good thing for the genre, but it was never anything unique, as most of its features were taken from MMO's that had already been made, the blizzard developers have even said this themselves.

But players on the whole evolve and its natural for an envoirment that offers freedom, will appeal to those who have ridden the scripted material and feel that need for more, which is a natural human instinct(in most, its evolution after all) to break free of the constraints of whatever it is that constrains them.

So you may be happy in your current form, but such is nature, i'm going to assume that players will enjoy a world that offers more than just a carrot to chase, but instead offer more of the indepth appetites and feelings we have as humans.

OK, I call BS on your evolution hypothesis. You can't be serious...

And I said in another post I've only played WoW for about 10 minutes - in beta no less. LIkely you are as much of a "WoW player" as I am.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5540

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

3/27/13 3:27:54 AM#90
Originally posted by GGrimm
Originally posted by Gdemami

Originally posted by SysFail

as it looks as though developers are embracing the idea of the sandbox


...same developers currently working on themepark games? :D
There is no better, working and proven concept. Themeparks are going to stay, period.

What we might see more is some changes in endgame, less gear treadmill, more re-playable content.

Action, fast paced game play and accessible fun is where money are at the moment.

Developers have wasted hundreds of millions of dollars trying to make the next great themepark game. To what success? Why would they want to spend good money after bad?

Because there's a huge, proven market unlike sandboxes! You know millions are ready to play the next "great themepark game" if you get it right.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5540

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

3/27/13 3:29:51 AM#91
Originally posted by jpnz
From a socialism point of view WOW did something that no mmo ever did before or after. It made mmos acceptable to the avg people. Before WOW even gamers made fun of mmo players. If you are a fan of the genre you have to respect what it did. It might not appeal to your personal taste but that is a separate issue.

That's very true too.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Malcanis

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/17/09
Posts: 3207

"A very special kind of stupidity"

3/27/13 6:13:11 AM#92
Originally posted by Quirhid
You talk like player created content is good.

You talk like TOR was a success.

Give me liberty or give me lasers

  Malcanis

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/17/09
Posts: 3207

"A very special kind of stupidity"

3/27/13 6:33:06 AM#93
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

I don't think there is much secret here....

 

1) The market is absolutely SATURATED with Themepark games. It's just basic business sense. No matter how much more popular hamburgers are at a certain point you have a better chance of success opening up a Chinese place then becoming the 251st hamburger stand in your small town and having to compete for market share with all those already established hamburger stands. MMO Developers are branching to try different market niche's that don't have alot of competition and sandbox's are an obvious choice. There really aren't that many quality modern sandbox's out there, and Developers are banking on (and I tend to agree with them) there is enough of an audience to support a few of them.

2) Sandbox's can generaly be produced MUCH less expensively then Themeparks. The reason why is that Themeparks require a TON of content in order to be successfull...

 

This is widely assumed, but never demonstrated. Bad "sandbox" MMOs can be produced cheaply. Successful, durable ones, not so much. How much do you think CCP have spent on developing EVE over the years? I'm willing to bet that in total they spent as much as TOR cost at launch.

"Sandbox" games require content at least a much as themeparks do, it's just that the definition of content is different.

For a themepark, content means new rides, and the rides don't actually have to be all that different from each other; you can use pretty much the same building blocks, reskinned and rethemed, with the same game mechanics.

For a sandbox game, content means new environments, new mechanics, new ways to interact with other players. A new kind of NPC isn't big news; a new crafting profession or an improvement to the netcode that allows larger battles (thus changing the metagame) is.

Give me liberty or give me lasers

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5540

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

3/27/13 7:47:30 AM#94
Originally posted by Malcanis
Originally posted by Quirhid
You talk like player created content is good.

You talk like TOR was a success.

Is TOR a good representation of developer made content?

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  GGrimm

Novice Member

Joined: 3/12/13
Posts: 50

3/27/13 9:57:25 AM#95
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by GGrimm
Originally posted by Gdemami

Originally posted by SysFail

as it looks as though developers are embracing the idea of the sandbox


...same developers currently working on themepark games? :D
There is no better, working and proven concept. Themeparks are going to stay, period.

What we might see more is some changes in endgame, less gear treadmill, more re-playable content.

Action, fast paced game play and accessible fun is where money are at the moment.

Developers have wasted hundreds of millions of dollars trying to make the next great themepark game. To what success? Why would they want to spend good money after bad?

Because there's a huge, proven market unlike sandboxes! You know millions are ready to play the next "great themepark game" if you get it right.

Companies already wasted hundreds of millions of dollars going after this so-called "proven market". Developers are recognizing that it's time to put their resources into something different.

Insanity = doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5540

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

3/27/13 10:17:01 AM#96
Originally posted by GGrimm
Originally posted by Quirhid
 

Companies already wasted hundreds of millions of dollars going after this so-called "proven market". Developers are recognizing that it's time to put their resources into something different.

Insanity = doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

How have they wasted that money? Should they just throw their millions at something that is unproven and unknown instead? -You can't base your investment on a hunch.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19773

3/27/13 10:18:19 AM#97
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by Malcanis
Originally posted by Quirhid
You talk like player created content is good.

You talk like TOR was a success.

Is TOR a good representation of developer made content?

TOR adds 2M players after F2P. It is pushing out the first expansion. May be it is not as big a failure as people make it out to me. At least it is better than Tabula Rasa, and surviving.

  Vesavius

Old School

Joined: 3/08/04
Posts: 7194

Players come for the game, but they stay for the people- Most Devs have forgotten this.

3/27/13 10:30:29 AM#98
Originally posted by SysFail

Having watched the PAX discussion by MMORPG, i'm feeling quite happy about the future of MMO's, as it looks as though developers are embracing the idea of the sandbox for its freedom and player created content, rather than the scripted path of the themepark.

Watch it here. http://www.mmorpg.com/showVideo.cfm/videoId/3005

 

I remember a few years ago on this site when almost everyone was loving the themepark style of game, the slide into casual drop in play, and why these things should be 'accessible' with equal rewards for everyone, deriding anything that didn't fit into that mold as being a 'job' and not a game. People that thought this was the way forward got very angry at folks that wanted more.

Funny how fashions shape the way people think and the landscapes of these forums.

I would be willing to be that in five years we will see it all swing around again and there will be thread after thread about how much we need to see the return of drop in themeparks and super accessible play that isn't 'a job'.

  GGrimm

Novice Member

Joined: 3/12/13
Posts: 50

3/27/13 10:35:24 AM#99
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by GGrimm
Originally posted by Quirhid
 

Companies already wasted hundreds of millions of dollars going after this so-called "proven market". Developers are recognizing that it's time to put their resources into something different.

Insanity = doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

How have they wasted that money? Should they just throw their millions at something that is unproven and unknown instead? -You can't base your investment on a hunch.

You may not have figured it out, but based on this video, it looks like developers are starting to. What games have you developed or are you just an armchair developer and avid MMO player just like the rest of us?

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19773

3/27/13 10:46:20 AM#100
Originally posted by GGrimm
 

You may not have figured it out, but based on this video, it looks like developers are starting to. What games have you developed or are you just an armchair developer and avid MMO player just like the rest of us?

It is more like they are willing to make a bet. We will see if that pans out.

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