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244 posts found
  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2388

World > Quest Progression

3/26/13 4:35:13 PM#61
And to me. As Grumpy said, if you don't like it who cares? Get off my lawn!!!
  Quirhid

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5511

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

3/26/13 4:41:17 PM#62
Originally posted by GGrimm
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by SysFail
 

A virtual world will do poorly because?

Because it is make-believe, play, a toy - NOT a game. Roleplaying or make-believe has never been all that popular. Don't ask me why, because I don't know. This is a crude generalization ofcourse, but games that don't have a point other than to "be there and live there" are not as popular as games that give you an objective to accomplish.

I also think you are grossly undermining the virtues of World of Warcraft in order to draw conclusions which suit you better. And take this from someone who has never been all that interested in WoW. WoW made many things well. It was much, much more than just timing.

You don't need to piss on roleplaying just because you don't like it. I'm not sure where you get the idea that make-believe isn't "all that popular". Are you aware that there are hundreds of millions of people who watch people roleplay every day? Television and movies is just make-believe. In addition, I don't think people are looking for JUST a virtual world, there's plenty of room to incorporate flexibility for a variety of playstyles within any sandbox. It's a design issue.

One of the reasons you probably don't see more people do in MMOs it is because there are bullies who like to sh*t on people who roleplay. Or they will make a name like "leetkillerlolz" partially BECAUSE they know it will screw with the roleplayers.

What? I'm not pissing on roleplaying - I've been a DM for years myself! All I'm doing is making observations.

And TV and movies are nothing like roleplaying - there's no connection.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  jpnz

Elite Member

Joined: 6/29/06
Posts: 3542

3/26/13 4:42:51 PM#63
Not sure why anyone is arguing. If the sandbox does well and we get a million Star citizens clones, great. If not, whatever. My taste in gaming isn't everyone's taste. As long as games that I like keep on coming out, why do I care what anyone else likes?

Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  Valentina

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/28/06
Posts: 1661

3/26/13 4:51:03 PM#64
I don't think themeparks are going to die in favor of sandbox games. We've done that before, the sandbox game basically died out for themeparks. It would be illogical to keep going in the same circle over and over again when they can (and are) making hybrids. One without the other is deficient.
  UOvet

Novice Member

Joined: 6/26/07
Posts: 510

3/26/13 4:56:10 PM#65

When I hear someone mention "player generated content" to me it doesn't mean creating dungeons or stupid quests for people. What that tells me is they want to bring the glory days of games like SWG/UO back.

 

You know, when people knew eachother, actually built lasting friendships, create tournaments, the politics that go into sandbox games, player driven economy, some real roleplaying went on. I could go on and on.

 

The way you fix open world PvP is you just bring back actual GUILD WARS. Where you can actually declare war ala UO, however, the only thing you would have to change is.

 

1. Allow ONLY only warred guilds to be able to loot eachother. Can fight anywhere within the world. They'd have to fix the blue healer thing though ;D.

 

This would prevent ganking, and it would be cool to run up on a huge guild war going down right outside the dungeon you were about to enter. You wouldn't have to worry about getting attacked/looted as long as you weren't in either of the guilds fighting obviously. PvE people would be left alone.

  UOvet

Novice Member

Joined: 6/26/07
Posts: 510

3/26/13 4:57:40 PM#66
Originally posted by Valentina
I don't think themeparks are going to die in favor of sandbox games. We've done that before, the sandbox game basically died out for themeparks. It would be illogical to keep going in the same circle over and over again when they can (and are) making hybrids. One without the other is deficient.

Only because WoW was a fluke that happens every once in a while and people tried to ride the coat tails. They have realized now that isn't going to work. You don't need 10 mill subs anyway, you simply need a consistent playerbase that is going up and not down ala EVE.

  Quirhid

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5511

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

3/26/13 5:10:10 PM#67
Originally posted by UOvet
Originally posted by Valentina
I don't think themeparks are going to die in favor of sandbox games. We've done that before, the sandbox game basically died out for themeparks. It would be illogical to keep going in the same circle over and over again when they can (and are) making hybrids. One without the other is deficient.

Only because WoW was a fluke that happens every once in a while and people tried to ride the coat tails. They have realized now that isn't going to work. You don't need 10 mill subs anyway, you simply need a consistent playerbase that is going up and not down ala EVE.

What makes WoW a fluke and Eve not a fluke? Maybe they both are flukes, hmm? -Or neither is a fluke...

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  UOvet

Novice Member

Joined: 6/26/07
Posts: 510

3/26/13 5:13:47 PM#68
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by UOvet
Originally posted by Valentina
I don't think themeparks are going to die in favor of sandbox games. We've done that before, the sandbox game basically died out for themeparks. It would be illogical to keep going in the same circle over and over again when they can (and are) making hybrids. One without the other is deficient.

Only because WoW was a fluke that happens every once in a while and people tried to ride the coat tails. They have realized now that isn't going to work. You don't need 10 mill subs anyway, you simply need a consistent playerbase that is going up and not down ala EVE.

What makes WoW a fluke and Eve not a fluke? Maybe they both are flukes, hmm? -Or neither is a fluke...

...does EVE have 10 million subs? You won't see that again..likely. WoW came in at the right time, low barrier entry, with a very solid IP behind it. Look, I was a fan of Blizzard right up untill WoW. I just feel that game brought in a whole generation of crap regarding the players who now run around MMOs to the ideas other companies tried to follow suit.

 

When you go outside tomorrow just asksk someone "What is WoW?" and see what they say. Then you ask them about EVE. I think you'll see where I'm getting. Not sure you can really compare the two. . .

  GrumpyMel2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/24/09
Posts: 1813

3/26/13 5:23:33 PM#69
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Livnthedream
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

Yes, role-playing must be extremely unpopular.....that would explain why so few people bought Dungeons & Dragons (PnP) products (/saracsm).

DnD pnp products really do not sell that well. Its part of the reason why they release completely new editions every 5 years, and charge $30 a book. Besides that, how much actual "roleplaying" goes on? In my experience, not much. It generally comes down to what amounts to dungeon runs and seeing what absurd stuff we can pull off, or just how badly we can screw up the dm's plans.

Paritcuarly if you compare to video games. I bet D&D numbers are small compared to WOW, D3, LOL, and other video games like COD.

 

I think you would be rather surprised about that. Although WoTC doesn't publicaly release sales numbers, a quick trip to D&D's wikipedia article does provide some sourced references as to numbers.

"The game had more than 3 million players around the world by 1981,[99] and copies of the rules were selling at a rate of about 750,000 per year by 1984.[100] Beginning with a French language edition in 1982, Dungeons & Dragons has been translated into many languages beyond the original English.[1][66] By 2004, consumers had spent more than US$1 billion on Dungeons & Dragons products and the game had been played by more than 20 million people.[10] As many as 6 million people played the game in 2007.[93]"

WoTC does claim that 4th Edition is thier best selling edition yet. That doesn't exactly suck eggs when compared to the average MMO or even other video games...

 

Here are WoW's numbers by comparison

"With over 10 million subscribers as of October 2012,[11] World of Warcraft is currently the world's most-subscribed MMORPG,[8][12] and holds the Guinness World Record for the most popular MMORPG by subscribers.[13][14][15][16]

As per 2013 investor call for the fourth quarter of 2012, official subscriber numbers are at 9.6 million.[17]"

 

 

  Quirhid

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5511

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

3/26/13 5:26:16 PM#70
Originally posted by UOvet
Originally posted by Quirhid

When you go outside tomorrow just asksk someone "What is WoW?" and see what they say. Then you ask them about EVE. I think you'll see where I'm getting. Not sure you can really compare the two. . .

One significant difference between the two is that WoW has succeeded among many competitors while Eve's success is in large part because of the lack of any serious competition. How many players play Eve because it is the only succesful sandbox out right now? -Or that it is the only spaceship/sci-fi MMO out right now?

Sorry, even if I've only played WoW for about 10 minutes and Eve for about 2 years, I'd still give more credit to Blizzard than CCP.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  GrumpyMel2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/24/09
Posts: 1813

3/26/13 5:32:31 PM#71
Originally posted by Aelious
And to me. As Grumpy said, if you don't like it who cares? Get off my lawn!!!

Exactly. Clearly there are some Developers now with a significant bunch of cash riding on it who feel like it's worth giving it a shot. Unless that's your money or someone's holding a gun to your head forcing you to play every MMO that's released, why would you care?

You don't like "sandbox's" or "Player Generated Content"......You like WoW, LOL, D3.....awesome, you've got them, and about a thousand other clones of them to choose from. Did you get lost on your way to playing them or something?

 

  UOvet

Novice Member

Joined: 6/26/07
Posts: 510

3/26/13 5:45:08 PM#72
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by UOvet
Originally posted by Quirhid

When you go outside tomorrow just asksk someone "What is WoW?" and see what they say. Then you ask them about EVE. I think you'll see where I'm getting. Not sure you can really compare the two. . .

One significant difference between the two is that WoW has succeeded among many competitors while Eve's success is in large part because of the lack of any serious competition. How many players play Eve because it is the only succesful sandbox out right now? -Or that it is the only spaceship/sci-fi MMO out right now?

Sorry, even if I've only played WoW for about 10 minutes and Eve for about 2 years, I'd still give more credit to Blizzard than CCP.

I believe most people play EVE for the sheer fact there is some risk/reward to be honest. I was going to give it a shot for that reason alone, not particularly excited about space sims. The point is though sandbox games can thrive, they don't need 10 million subs. They just need a consistent playerbase that doesn't keep going down.

Why? Because your average sandbox player WANTS to stick around for a long time. They want to be engaged in a new world, not having to roll alts to get some entertainment. They want to play a game for years, not months, and a lot of times with a single character. They dont wan't to rush, they'd rather soak it in and enjoy it, because really, what's the rush?

 

I don't know man, like I've said (sure you can tell by the name). I grew up playing UO when I was like 15 in 98 for for years. It's what I'm used to, but I also believe it's the better way of doing things (just more openess, sandiness in general). I was never used to going raiding/questing, even DAoC to me was kind of foreign which is why I only played for 6 months (regret that), and I missed out on SWG (another regret).

The whole point about WoW, I just think it did more harm than good to the genre. It opened up some peoples eyes to this genre, at the same time it attracted for every quality MMO player another 100 assholes. Gaming just in my opinion was more fun (and original) when it was considered "nerdy", so like pre 2000ish, because let's be honest, most of us playing MMOs on our 56k back then were pretty nerdy.

 

 

 

  jesteralways

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/17/13
Posts: 546

3/26/13 5:52:35 PM#73
Originally posted by SysFail
Originally posted by Quirhid
A "gamey sandbox" could do pretty well, but not the kind of "virtual world" some posters here expect - certainly it wouldn't enjoy the same sort of success WoW had. All I'm saying is that there could be a valuable niche out there - just not as massive as some people might think.

A virtual world will do poorly because?

As for WoW, that game hit the scene at the right moment, a time when PC's in the homes was rapidly growing. It was a case of the right place at the right time and the clones that have tried to emulate its formula since haven't even come close to repeating that feat, which further suggests a fluke.

As for everyone either saying sandbox titles will be a hit or just a niche is merely conjecture at present, but we finally have several quality sandbox titles being developed, which is great to see and will finally put to bed the argument.

The greatest thing I see about the upcoming sandbox's personally, is that there is a generation that has only had WoW and the like to base their MMO experiences on, but now with big studio's heading down the sandbox route, they will soon get to taste well funded sandbox enviroments for themselves.

many people copied "monalisa" but those copies were never anywhere near as good as monalisa, so by your logic "monalisa" is fluke. many people tried to copy newton's gravity theory and deliver their own theory, some of them even claimed they "invented"(yeah an idiot claimed it) gravity before newton did, they as usual failed, so by your logic "gravity" is fluke?

it is a common knowledge that a copy is always a copy and when compared to original it will fall short, it is like a natural order, like the truth of existence.  it was obvious wow clones would fail, simply because they were copies, nothing more or less. would you like to eat a copy of egg and not the egg itself to sate your hunger? or a copy of bacon? i guess not.

if you hate something so passionately you should just say it outright, like i am saying it : I hate sandbox("sod"box i call them) mmo, but that doesn't mean sandbox mmo are trash.

No panties, No Life

  SysFail

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/01/05
Posts: 377

 
OP  3/26/13 5:57:16 PM#74
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by SysFail
 

A virtual world will do poorly because?

Because it is make-believe, play, a toy - NOT a game. Roleplaying or make-believe has never been all that popular. Don't ask me why, because I don't know. This is a crude generalization ofcourse, but games that don't have a point other than to "be there and live there" are not as popular as games that give you an objective to accomplish.

 

I also think you are grossly undermining the virtues of World of Warcraft in order to draw conclusions which suit you better. And take this from someone who has never been all that interested in WoW. WoW made many things well. It was much, much more than just timing.

 

You're clearly a WoW player, which is fine, that game has given many newbies the platform to experience MMO's, which of course is a good thing for the genre, but it was never anything unique, as most of its features were taken from MMO's that had already been made, the blizzard developers have even said this themselves.

But players on the whole evolve and its natural for an envoirment that offers freedom, will appeal to those who have ridden the scripted material and feel that need for more, which is a natural human instinct(in most, its evolution after all) to break free of the constraints of whatever it is that constrains them.

So you may be happy in your current form, but such is nature, i'm going to assume that players will enjoy a world that offers more than just a carrot to chase, but instead offer more of the indepth appetites and feelings we have as humans.

  SysFail

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/01/05
Posts: 377

 
OP  3/26/13 6:03:29 PM#75
Originally posted by jesteralways
Originally posted by SysFail
Originally posted by Quirhid
A "gamey sandbox" could do pretty well, but not the kind of "virtual world" some posters here expect - certainly it wouldn't enjoy the same sort of success WoW had. All I'm saying is that there could be a valuable niche out there - just not as massive as some people might think.

A virtual world will do poorly because?

As for WoW, that game hit the scene at the right moment, a time when PC's in the homes was rapidly growing. It was a case of the right place at the right time and the clones that have tried to emulate its formula since haven't even come close to repeating that feat, which further suggests a fluke.

As for everyone either saying sandbox titles will be a hit or just a niche is merely conjecture at present, but we finally have several quality sandbox titles being developed, which is great to see and will finally put to bed the argument.

The greatest thing I see about the upcoming sandbox's personally, is that there is a generation that has only had WoW and the like to base their MMO experiences on, but now with big studio's heading down the sandbox route, they will soon get to taste well funded sandbox enviroments for themselves.

many people copied "monalisa" but those copies were never anywhere near as good as monalisa, so by your logic "monalisa" is fluke. many people tried to copy newton's gravity theory and deliver their own theory, some of them even claimed they "invented"(yeah an idiot claimed it) gravity before newton did, they as usual failed, so by your logic "gravity" is fluke?

it is a common knowledge that a copy is always a copy and when compared to original it will fall short, it is like a natural order, like the truth of existence.  it was obvious wow clones would fail, simply because they were copies, nothing more or less. would you like to eat a copy of egg and not the egg itself to sate your hunger? or a copy of bacon? i guess not.

if you hate something so passionately you should just say it outright, like i am saying it : I hate sandbox("sod"box i call them) mmo, but that doesn't mean sandbox mmo are trash.

I've never said I hate WoW, i actually played it for three months when it was released, I saw good things in the way they created the world to be mostly open, but i also saw content i didn't like so much.

 

Its biggest achievement is that it brought many new players to the genre, but the poor souls haven't had anything outside of the WoW box to sample that is of an upto date quality, but its coming, so we should rejoice!

  FromHell

Novice Member

Joined: 11/10/12
Posts: 1338

3/26/13 6:10:18 PM#76
Originally posted by doodphace
Originally posted by FromHell

The real visionary on this panel is Chris Roberts. Then the EQ Next guy (forgot his name).

Roberts is not bound to the old and stale MMO ideology and terminology. All the others seem to rehash old concepts (again with the exception of EQ Next, but let´s see how it turns out)

Too bad no one from CCP was there talking about World of Darkness. Could have replaced that GW2 guy.

 

Chris Roberts is my favorite game producer in history, with that said, I wouldn't hold my breath for anything to be relased from him anytime soon.

Freelancer was his last game, backed by a studio with deep deep pockets at the time (Microsoft), and he had to actually leave Digital Anvil for it to be relased after something like 5 years in development...

This kickstarter thing is gonna taake at least 10 years before a playable version is even shown to the press lol

We'll be playing parts of the campaign alpha test by Christmas, this is what they plan for. No worries, CIG will keep its schedule. 

Secrets of Dragon´s Spine Trailer.. ! :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwT9cFVQCMw

Best MMOs ever played: Ultima, EvE, SW Galaxies, Age of Conan, The Secret World
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2X_SbZCHpc&t=21s
.


.
The Return of ELITE !

  ClaudeSuamOram

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 134

3/26/13 6:16:13 PM#77
Originally posted by Sephiroso
Originally posted by ClaudeSuamOram
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by GGrimm
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Khalathwyr

I wouldn't say Sandbox is the future, though I do prefer the method to the exclusion of themeparks. I will say that it looks as though the sandbox method will now get some serious attempts at it, the likes we have not seen since SWG.

 

I also see alot of folks just completely assuming that user generated content is the NWN and the Foundry type content. While that is one format, sure, the term also captures players being in the game world and setting up settlements and choosing opposing factions. Users just beng in the game and picking sides and such is content as well. So, that said I disagree with anyone that says 90%+ of UGC is trash because the NWN/Foundry methods aren't 90% of UGC. Indeed 100% of UGC in SWG was not of the NWN/Foundry type and it was a blast for the most part. Same in Ultima Online.

Well, it is just a matter of definition. If you consider players doing some stuff in game as content, then LOL is full of UGC.

For discussion sake, we need a term for the foundry/NWN type UGC .. and those, are 99.99% crap.

How many Foundry scenarios did you play in NWN? Because of the few I had a chance to play, there was 0% crap. So your ability to estimate appears to be off by a factor of infinity according to my experience.

More than i should wasting my time. No .. that only shows that you have a much higher tolerance of crap than i do.

No...it just shows a difference in gaming mentalities and items enjoyed within a game. Again...just because YOU don't like it doesn't mean it's a bad game.

so, just because YOU like it means its a good game?

Did I say I like it? Or disliked it? I am just saying everytime someone mentions this particular type, he states his own displeasure with them.

  UOvet

Novice Member

Joined: 6/26/07
Posts: 510

3/26/13 6:31:11 PM#78
Originally posted by SysFail
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by SysFail
 

A virtual world will do poorly because?

Because it is make-believe, play, a toy - NOT a game. Roleplaying or make-believe has never been all that popular. Don't ask me why, because I don't know. This is a crude generalization ofcourse, but games that don't have a point other than to "be there and live there" are not as popular as games that give you an objective to accomplish.

 

I also think you are grossly undermining the virtues of World of Warcraft in order to draw conclusions which suit you better. And take this from someone who has never been all that interested in WoW. WoW made many things well. It was much, much more than just timing.

 

You're clearly a WoW player, which is fine, that game has given many newbies the platform to experience MMO's, which of course is a good thing for the genre, but it was never anything unique, as most of its features were taken from MMO's that had already been made, the blizzard developers have even said this themselves.

But players on the whole evolve and its natural for an envoirment that offers freedom, will appeal to those who have ridden the scripted material and feel that need for more, which is a natural human instinct(in most, its evolution after all) to break free of the constraints of whatever it is that constrains them.

So you may be happy in your current form, but such is nature, i'm going to assume that players will enjoy a world that offers more than just a carrot to chase, but instead offer more of the indepth appetites and feelings we have as humans.

Most people actually want to be told what to do, where to go, and how to do it. This is why themeparks are popular. They don't want to think. I don't know why anyone wouldn't want a sandbox. Freedom of choice is what comes to my mind.

  jpnz

Elite Member

Joined: 6/29/06
Posts: 3542

3/26/13 6:36:42 PM#79
From a socialism point of view WOW did something that no mmo ever did before or after. It made mmos acceptable to the avg people. Before WOW even gamers made fun of mmo players. If you are a fan of the genre you have to respect what it did. It might not appeal to your personal taste but that is a separate issue.

Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  FromHell

Novice Member

Joined: 11/10/12
Posts: 1338

3/26/13 6:44:49 PM#80
Originally posted by UOvet

 

Most people actually want to be told what to do, where to go, and how to do it. This is why themeparks are popular. They don't want to think. I don't know why anyone wouldn't want a sandbox. Freedom of choice is what comes to my mind.

a lot of truth in this post. Maybe most gamers feel more comfortable with handholding and restrictions in the common themepark MMO.

Secrets of Dragon´s Spine Trailer.. ! :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwT9cFVQCMw

Best MMOs ever played: Ultima, EvE, SW Galaxies, Age of Conan, The Secret World
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2X_SbZCHpc&t=21s
.


.
The Return of ELITE !

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