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244 posts found
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20123

3/26/13 1:49:39 PM#41
Originally posted by GGrimm
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Khalathwyr

I wouldn't say Sandbox is the future, though I do prefer the method to the exclusion of themeparks. I will say that it looks as though the sandbox method will now get some serious attempts at it, the likes we have not seen since SWG.

 

I also see alot of folks just completely assuming that user generated content is the NWN and the Foundry type content. While that is one format, sure, the term also captures players being in the game world and setting up settlements and choosing opposing factions. Users just beng in the game and picking sides and such is content as well. So, that said I disagree with anyone that says 90%+ of UGC is trash because the NWN/Foundry methods aren't 90% of UGC. Indeed 100% of UGC in SWG was not of the NWN/Foundry type and it was a blast for the most part. Same in Ultima Online.

Well, it is just a matter of definition. If you consider players doing some stuff in game as content, then LOL is full of UGC.

For discussion sake, we need a term for the foundry/NWN type UGC .. and those, are 99.99% crap.

How many Foundry scenarios did you play in NWN? Because of the few I had a chance to play, there was 0% crap. So your ability to estimate appears to be off by a factor of infinity according to my experience.

More than i should wasting my time. No .. that only shows that you have a much higher tolerance of crap than i do.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20123

3/26/13 1:53:29 PM#42
Originally posted by GGrimm
 

You don't need to piss on roleplaying just because you don't like it. I'm not sure where you get the idea that make-believe isn't "all that popular". Are you aware that there are hundreds of millions of people who watch people roleplay every day? Television and movies is just make-believe. In addition, I don't think people are looking for JUST a virtual world, there's plenty of room to incorporate flexibility for a variety of playstyles within any sandbox. It's a design issue.

There is a huge difference between watching make-believe, and creating make-belief. I love the Avenger movie .. that does not mean i want to create one.

Similar, i like playing video games .. does not mean i want to create content for it.

One of the reasons you probably don't see more people do in MMOs it is because there are bullies who like to sh*t on people who roleplay. Or they will make a name like "leetkillerlolz" partially BECAUSE they know it will screw with the roleplayers.

Or may be just that no one cares about it very much. You don't know the reasons. And there aren't enough role-players to screw with anyway. I highly doubt players who use names like "leetkillerlolz" even care that role-players exist.

 

  Livnthedream

Novice Member

Joined: 3/20/13
Posts: 582

I like this planet, YOU get off!

3/26/13 1:53:43 PM#43
Originally posted by SysFail

A virtual world will do poorly because?

Because they have been done, and do not work from the money perspective. Much like Communism, it falls apart on the large scale. Between herd mentality and the internet asshole theory they breakdown.

 

As for UGC, there is power in the internet aggregate. To say otherwise is stupid. The problem being, most people are missing one of the crucial peices to the puzzle. They may be creative, but they lack the ability to execute, or they have the ability to execute, and have a great ideam, they just do not have the resources (time/money) to pull it off at any sort of reasonable rate.

 

The future in my mind is small community driven games. The issue with being small of course is "lacking" graphics and slow release schedules for big projects. Minecraft for example.

http://chroniclesofthenerds.com/nerdfight/

Y U NO FLIP TABLE?!?!?!

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20123

3/26/13 2:03:09 PM#44
Originally posted by Livnthedream
Originally posted by SysFail

A virtual world will do poorly because?

Because they have been done, and do not work from the money perspective. Much like Communism, it falls apart on the large scale. Between herd mentality and the internet asshole theory they breakdown.

 Not to mention, by now, there are plenty of examples of successful online games with some MMO features, and no virtual world (D3, LOL, WOT, ...). So it is obvious to devs that you don't need a VW to be successful.

As for UGC, there is power in the internet aggregate. To say otherwise is stupid. The problem being, most people are missing one of the crucial peices to the puzzle. They may be creative, but they lack the ability to execute, or they have the ability to execute, and have a great ideam, they just do not have the resources (time/money) to pull it off at any sort of reasonable rate.

 There are rare case of good content. But that is so rare that i won't be wasting my time to sort through 99% crap.

The future in my mind is small community driven games. The issue with being small of course is "lacking" graphics and slow release schedules for big projects. Minecraft for example.

The future is indie gaming + few big AAA games. I bet games like the next Titan and Destiny will be fun (to me) and entertain many.

 

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2481

World > Quest Progression

3/26/13 2:16:31 PM#45
The beauty of the emergence of sandbox features is that everyone will be happy: those that like to play a prewritten interactive story and those that like to play thier own. It's not a better or worse across the board, it's to each individual. I personally would like to play my own story instead of the same one thousands have already.

It is worth noting that if there was no need or demand for open worlds and sandbox features than a handful of them would not currently be in development.
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20123

3/26/13 2:21:18 PM#46
Originally posted by Aelious


It is worth noting that if there was no need or demand for open worlds and sandbox features than a handful of them would not currently be in development.

I would say the demand is not proven .. at best you got a signal because the biggest sandbox MMO is not even half a million strong.

Time will tell if it is a big enough demand, or a huge misjudgment like Tabula Rasa.

 

  GrumpyMel2

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/24/09
Posts: 1824

3/26/13 3:11:00 PM#47
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by GGrimm
 

You don't need to piss on roleplaying just because you don't like it. I'm not sure where you get the idea that make-believe isn't "all that popular". Are you aware that there are hundreds of millions of people who watch people roleplay every day? Television and movies is just make-believe. In addition, I don't think people are looking for JUST a virtual world, there's plenty of room to incorporate flexibility for a variety of playstyles within any sandbox. It's a design issue.

There is a huge difference between watching make-believe, and creating make-belief. I love the Avenger movie .. that does not mean i want to create one.

Similar, i like playing video games .. does not mean i want to create content for it.

One of the reasons you probably don't see more people do in MMOs it is because there are bullies who like to sh*t on people who roleplay. Or they will make a name like "leetkillerlolz" partially BECAUSE they know it will screw with the roleplayers.

Or may be just that no one cares about it very much. You don't know the reasons. And there aren't enough role-players to screw with anyway. I highly doubt players who use names like "leetkillerlolz" even care that role-players exist.

 

Yes, role-playing must be extremely unpopular.....that would explain why so few people bought Dungeons & Dragons (PnP) products (/saracsm).

The world of entertainment is a VERY big and diverse place and people have different tastes and enjoy different things.....and yes some of those people enjoy creative aspects of play. Just because it isn't your thing doesn't mean you need to go around kicking someone elses puppy.

In past discussions, you've told me that it was perfectly fine to have a preference for sandbox's but that didn't mean that it justified Developers taking a risk producing games geared toward those interests. Well, take a look around.....clearly some Developers feel differently and unless it's your dime that has been invested in those products I don't see why your here grousing. Either they'll work or they won't....and we'll get the chance to see which. It's not like the type of entertainment products you like will suddenly cease to exist just because some Developers are taking a chance and trying to produce some products geared toward an audience that is different from you.

  RefMinor

Novice Member

Joined: 7/16/11
Posts: 3542

Hipster

3/26/13 3:18:56 PM#48
Originally posted by Khalathwyr

I wouldn't say Sandbox is the future, though I do prefer the method to the exclusion of themeparks. I will say that it looks as though the sandbox method will now get some serious attempts at it, the likes we have not seen since SWG.

 

I also see alot of folks just completely assuming that user generated content is the NWN and the Foundry type content. While that is one format, sure, the term also captures players being in the game world and setting up settlements and choosing opposing factions. Users just beng in the game and picking sides and such is content as well. So, that said I disagree with anyone that says 90%+ of UGC is trash because the NWN/Foundry methods aren't 90% of UGC. Indeed 100% of UGC in SWG was not of the NWN/Foundry type and it was a blast for the most part. Same in Ultima Online.

This, the will be a lot of tears when some of these people actually try a sandbox for the first time and realise it is not a themepark with the quests made by players.

  Livnthedream

Novice Member

Joined: 3/20/13
Posts: 582

I like this planet, YOU get off!

3/26/13 3:25:23 PM#49
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

Yes, role-playing must be extremely unpopular.....that would explain why so few people bought Dungeons & Dragons (PnP) products (/saracsm).

DnD pnp products really do not sell that well. Its part of the reason why they release completely new editions every 5 years, and charge $30 a book. Besides that, how much actual "roleplaying" goes on? In my experience, not much. It generally comes down to what amounts to dungeon runs and seeing what absurd stuff we can pull off, or just how badly we can screw up the dm's plans.

The world of entertainment is a VERY big and diverse place and people have different tastes and enjoy different things.....and yes some of those people enjoy creative aspects of play. Just because it isn't your thing doesn't mean you need to go around kicking someone elses puppy.

In past discussions, you've told me that it was perfectly fine to have a preference for sandbox's but that didn't mean that it justified Developers taking a risk producing games geared toward those interests. Well, take a look around.....clearly some Developers feel differently and unless it's your dime that has been invested in those products I don't see why your here grousing. Either they'll work or they won't....and we'll get the chance to see which. It's not like the type of entertainment products you like will suddenly cease to exist just because some Developers are taking a chance and trying to produce some products geared toward an audience that is different from you.

The problem with both the creative side and the sandbox side is that they scream just as loudly as everyone else (whens MY turn) but they are so small that many of those sorts of games are just not made. Look at Topia online, the forum here has all of 3 threads, and 20 posts yet caters to both and no one is talking about it. That is what you need to overcome. Many of those projects are going to fail entirely because there is just not enough of a playerbase to make them self sustaining.

http://chroniclesofthenerds.com/nerdfight/

Y U NO FLIP TABLE?!?!?!

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20123

3/26/13 3:45:37 PM#50
Originally posted by RefMinor
 

This, the will be a lot of tears when some of these people actually try a sandbox for the first time and realise it is not a themepark with the quests made by players.

Quests made by players ... i probably will pass on such games. Thank god there are other games i can play.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20123

3/26/13 3:47:03 PM#51
Originally posted by Livnthedream
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

Yes, role-playing must be extremely unpopular.....that would explain why so few people bought Dungeons & Dragons (PnP) products (/saracsm).

DnD pnp products really do not sell that well. Its part of the reason why they release completely new editions every 5 years, and charge $30 a book. Besides that, how much actual "roleplaying" goes on? In my experience, not much. It generally comes down to what amounts to dungeon runs and seeing what absurd stuff we can pull off, or just how badly we can screw up the dm's plans.

Paritcuarly if you compare to video games. I bet D&D numbers are small compared to WOW, D3, LOL, and other video games like COD.

 

  Doogiehowser

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 1939

3/26/13 3:47:18 PM#52
Originally posted by RefMinor
Originally posted by Khalathwyr

I wouldn't say Sandbox is the future, though I do prefer the method to the exclusion of themeparks. I will say that it looks as though the sandbox method will now get some serious attempts at it, the likes we have not seen since SWG.

 

I also see alot of folks just completely assuming that user generated content is the NWN and the Foundry type content. While that is one format, sure, the term also captures players being in the game world and setting up settlements and choosing opposing factions. Users just beng in the game and picking sides and such is content as well. So, that said I disagree with anyone that says 90%+ of UGC is trash because the NWN/Foundry methods aren't 90% of UGC. Indeed 100% of UGC in SWG was not of the NWN/Foundry type and it was a blast for the most part. Same in Ultima Online.

This, the will be a lot of tears when some of these people actually try a sandbox for the first time and realise it is not a themepark with the quests made by players.

That is going to be one aweful experince. I love playing sandbox but not the one with player made quests.. Just no.

"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell

"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney

  ClaudeSuamOram

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 134

3/26/13 3:50:53 PM#53
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by ClaudeSuamOram
Originally posted by Quirhid
You talk like player created content is good.

Well...in b4 Nariu, Cephus404 at least to crap on this thread. And player created content I am willign to give a shot. Can't be any worse than what these current dev's called content.

 

Hope sandboxes get bigger on a side note.

Only because i was actually playing non-sandbox games last night .. don't have time to post until this morning at work. You know, there are fun games to play.

 

Love how you just assume sandboxes can't be fun just because you don't enjoy them. I play games I consider fun too besides sandbox games. People aren't quite as one dimensional as you appear to think they are.

  ClaudeSuamOram

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 134

3/26/13 3:53:33 PM#54
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by GGrimm
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Khalathwyr

I wouldn't say Sandbox is the future, though I do prefer the method to the exclusion of themeparks. I will say that it looks as though the sandbox method will now get some serious attempts at it, the likes we have not seen since SWG.

 

I also see alot of folks just completely assuming that user generated content is the NWN and the Foundry type content. While that is one format, sure, the term also captures players being in the game world and setting up settlements and choosing opposing factions. Users just beng in the game and picking sides and such is content as well. So, that said I disagree with anyone that says 90%+ of UGC is trash because the NWN/Foundry methods aren't 90% of UGC. Indeed 100% of UGC in SWG was not of the NWN/Foundry type and it was a blast for the most part. Same in Ultima Online.

Well, it is just a matter of definition. If you consider players doing some stuff in game as content, then LOL is full of UGC.

For discussion sake, we need a term for the foundry/NWN type UGC .. and those, are 99.99% crap.

How many Foundry scenarios did you play in NWN? Because of the few I had a chance to play, there was 0% crap. So your ability to estimate appears to be off by a factor of infinity according to my experience.

More than i should wasting my time. No .. that only shows that you have a much higher tolerance of crap than i do.

No...it just shows a difference in gaming mentalities and items enjoyed within a game. Again...just because YOU don't like it doesn't mean it's a bad game.

  ClaudeSuamOram

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 134

3/26/13 3:55:05 PM#55
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by RefMinor
 

This, the will be a lot of tears when some of these people actually try a sandbox for the first time and realise it is not a themepark with the quests made by players.

Quests made by players ... i probably will pass on such games. Thank god there are other games i can play.

Yes, thank God.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20123

3/26/13 3:55:54 PM#56
Originally posted by ClaudeSuamOram
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by ClaudeSuamOram
Originally posted by Quirhid
You talk like player created content is good.

Well...in b4 Nariu, Cephus404 at least to crap on this thread. And player created content I am willign to give a shot. Can't be any worse than what these current dev's called content.

 

Hope sandboxes get bigger on a side note.

Only because i was actually playing non-sandbox games last night .. don't have time to post until this morning at work. You know, there are fun games to play.

 

Love how you just assume sandboxes can't be fun just because you don't enjoy them. I play games I consider fun too besides sandbox games. People aren't quite as one dimensional as you appear to think they are.

I don't assume. I know .. sandbox games are not fun to me. Fun is subjective. Of course i am only talking abotu myself. You doubt that i know what i like?

 

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2481

World > Quest Progression

3/26/13 3:59:36 PM#57
Close to five months to go, we'll get our first look at the revolution :) Maybe there will be better player retention rates than we've seen recently lol
  GrumpyMel2

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/24/09
Posts: 1824

3/26/13 4:23:39 PM#58
Originally posted by Livnthedream
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

Yes, role-playing must be extremely unpopular.....that would explain why so few people bought Dungeons & Dragons (PnP) products (/saracsm).

DnD pnp products really do not sell that well. Its part of the reason why they release completely new editions every 5 years, and charge $30 a book. Besides that, how much actual "roleplaying" goes on? In my experience, not much. It generally comes down to what amounts to dungeon runs and seeing what absurd stuff we can pull off, or just how badly we can screw up the dm's plans.

The world of entertainment is a VERY big and diverse place and people have different tastes and enjoy different things.....and yes some of those people enjoy creative aspects of play. Just because it isn't your thing doesn't mean you need to go around kicking someone elses puppy.

In past discussions, you've told me that it was perfectly fine to have a preference for sandbox's but that didn't mean that it justified Developers taking a risk producing games geared toward those interests. Well, take a look around.....clearly some Developers feel differently and unless it's your dime that has been invested in those products I don't see why your here grousing. Either they'll work or they won't....and we'll get the chance to see which. It's not like the type of entertainment products you like will suddenly cease to exist just because some Developers are taking a chance and trying to produce some products geared toward an audience that is different from you.

The problem with both the creative side and the sandbox side is that they scream just as loudly as everyone else (whens MY turn) but they are so small that many of those sorts of games are just not made. Look at Topia online, the forum here has all of 3 threads, and 20 posts yet caters to both and no one is talking about it. That is what you need to overcome. Many of those projects are going to fail entirely because there is just not enough of a playerbase to make them self sustaining.

Except that now there are some significant Developers investing in making sandbox games and games with user generated content because they think it's worth a try....and all I see is sour grapes coming from the few names on this board who had in essence said in the past "don't complain that developers aren't making the type of games you like....you need to wait for a Developer to be convinced it's worth trying."...... um, yeah we are here now and rather then saying "Hey great, hope it works out for ya"... those very same names are now casting stones, even though they were the ones living in glass houses for years.

  Sephiroso

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/01/05
Posts: 1056

3/26/13 4:27:58 PM#59
Originally posted by ClaudeSuamOram
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by GGrimm
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Khalathwyr

I wouldn't say Sandbox is the future, though I do prefer the method to the exclusion of themeparks. I will say that it looks as though the sandbox method will now get some serious attempts at it, the likes we have not seen since SWG.

 

I also see alot of folks just completely assuming that user generated content is the NWN and the Foundry type content. While that is one format, sure, the term also captures players being in the game world and setting up settlements and choosing opposing factions. Users just beng in the game and picking sides and such is content as well. So, that said I disagree with anyone that says 90%+ of UGC is trash because the NWN/Foundry methods aren't 90% of UGC. Indeed 100% of UGC in SWG was not of the NWN/Foundry type and it was a blast for the most part. Same in Ultima Online.

Well, it is just a matter of definition. If you consider players doing some stuff in game as content, then LOL is full of UGC.

For discussion sake, we need a term for the foundry/NWN type UGC .. and those, are 99.99% crap.

How many Foundry scenarios did you play in NWN? Because of the few I had a chance to play, there was 0% crap. So your ability to estimate appears to be off by a factor of infinity according to my experience.

More than i should wasting my time. No .. that only shows that you have a much higher tolerance of crap than i do.

No...it just shows a difference in gaming mentalities and items enjoyed within a game. Again...just because YOU don't like it doesn't mean it's a bad game.

so, just because YOU like it means its a good game?


Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2481

World > Quest Progression

3/26/13 4:34:04 PM#60
To him? Yes.
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