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General Discussion Forum » The Pub at MMORPG.COM » Is it even possible to make an F2p without selling advatages?

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154 posts found
  Slappy1

Novice Member

Joined: 12/27/12
Posts: 464

3/26/13 6:15:57 PM#121
Originally posted by Dogblaster
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

How is it an advantage.  How does it give someone else something that you won't get.  There is nothing they get by getting there faster.

Faster leveling is not an advantage IMO.

So giving someone potion to do bigger damage = killing mobs and finishing dungeons faster is not advantage either right?

Giving osmeone potion to make money faster than I do is not advantage either right?

 

Dont make me laught please ... :D

 

By buying XP boosts someone can level 100 max character by the time I level only 70 .. clear advantage. If you dont see this or dont know world advantage, then I lost fate in this world

It's not an advantage because you will get there also,only slower.That's makes it a convenience and not an advantage.

Some day I'm going to put a sword through your eye and out the back of your skull!

Arya Stark

  Dogblaster

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 505

3/26/13 6:16:25 PM#122
Originally posted by aesperus

That is a HUGE stretch of an 'advantage'. That's like saying 'having a cool looking outfit gives you an advantage, because you make friends easier / people follow you around more in pvp'.

Basically what this boils down to is this:

A) F2P still need to make money. People can't make a living on nothing. They have mouths to feed and bills to pay, just like everyone else.

B) As long as your view of 'advantage' is skewed enough to basically include literally EVERYTHING, then yes.. in your distorted world view, every game will have paid advantages or (in the extreme cases) be pay2win.

However, what is this really saying? At most it comes across as a poor cry to bring back the subscription model (which also can give advantages to select members if you're going to apply equally distorted view points). So maybe we should just stop playing multiplayer games alltogether, because they all offer advantages depending on who plays more / spends money / has cooler stuff. Etc.

Really.. what's the point?

point is ... p2p ftw :) not because of advantage, who cares, i spent about 600 euro on GW2 cash shop already, money arent the problem. But p2p mmorpgs are the only one I play and I will ever play (and few B2P)  for me f2p = cheap/crap/cashcow (but thats my view only)

  aesperus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4755

3/26/13 6:17:35 PM#123
Originally posted by rojo6934
Originally posted by kadepsyson
Originally posted by rojo6934
altering leveling speed with real money is convenience, not advantage. Period.

So if I could pay real money to acquire a max level character in a game, with all the best equipment possible, instantly, that'd just be convenient right?  Not any kind of possible advantage to have all the best everything for a fee, right?

The real convenience is how easy the games make it to purchase the goods they sell in cash shops.  I'm kind of at a loss to understand why reaching goals quicker through payment is not an advantage no matter what the game or systems in place.

you are confusing yourself now, first you say leveling speed is advantage, and now you thow in power to the mix.

Paying for Higher Leveling speed is convenience. Paying for Power is advantage.

 

EDIT: the main point is. EXP pots are not Pay to Win. Buying Power IS pay to win.

The problem is, when using a word like 'advantage',  it can literally be applied to anything remotely competitive, provided you are viewing it from a certain perspective.

For example, lets take GW2. Now, this game literally gives no additional power to those that use the cash shop, none.

However, you can argue that exp boosts give you advantages. You can argue that having a shiny weapon skin gives you advantages.

Literally anything can be used as an advantage (regardless of how fair it actually is). So talking about paying for 'advantages' is such a loaded topic, that there's really no point in arguing it. A case could be made for absolutely every multiplayer game, regardless of business model, that it gives advantages to certain players over others. So much so that it's really a pointless argument.

Rojo, you're actually trying to have the right type of argument. Discussing Power, otherwise known as Pay2Win. That actually does have an impact on a game, but sadly many of the posters on these forums are confused between what Pay2Win actually is, and 'pay 2 advantage' which amounts to literally every game that has a cash shop (provided you are willing to skew your view of what constitutes advantage enough).

  Dogblaster

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 505

3/26/13 6:18:17 PM#124
Originally posted by Slappy1

It's not an advantage because you will get there also,only slower.That's makes it a convenience and not an advantage.

newermind man :)

good night

  UOvet

Novice Member

Joined: 6/26/07
Posts: 510

3/26/13 6:20:47 PM#125
Originally posted by kadepsyson
Originally posted by rojo6934
altering leveling speed with real money is convenience, not advantage. Period.

So if I could pay real money to acquire a max level character in a game, with all the best equipment possible, instantly, that'd just be convenient right?  Not any kind of possible advantage to have all the best everything for a fee, right?

The real convenience is how easy the games make it to purchase the goods they sell in cash shops.  I'm kind of at a loss to understand why reaching goals quicker through payment is not an advantage no matter what the game or systems in place.

..I don't think you get it.

 

Who is takling about equipement? You reach level cap, you get to do stuff sooner. Big deal. Like I said, it's not an advantage maybe unless PvP, but that can be negated in open world by numbers/better players, and most games if have arena is bracketed anyway for levels.

 

This whole debate on f2p reminds me of politics. If I get my game the night before you, is it an advantage? If so, in what way? I unlock some guns sooner in multiplayer? I get level 10 before you? Big deal. I still think the majority who whine about it are usually kids.

 

Why can't I pay for convenience? If you have 8 hours to play and I have 2, why not? What if they limited your time on the game because it wasn't fair? Becaus they would think that's an advantage, which it is since you have more time to play. Things like EXP just close the gap a little.

 

I bet if I kicked you off your PC after 3 hours because the guy next to you couldn't play any longer, you'd probably get pissed. It's only fair though becuause you have an advantage, you have more time, and that shouldn't be allowed.

  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4824

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

3/26/13 6:22:18 PM#126

The only way this question of "advantage" can be addressed  is if you define what you mean by advantage.

For me an advantage means something that benefits one person over another.  When they are both at end level, one does not have a benefit over the other. 

Perhaps in some games there is a benefit in being first; special rewards... that is an advange IMO.

Sigh - another terminology debate.  This is why in research papers they define their words in the beginning.  Forums should adopt the same strategy, there may be less arguments. 

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  gessekai332

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/31/07
Posts: 865

 
OP  3/26/13 6:26:01 PM#127
Originally posted by UOvet

Depends what you value as an advantage. I'm sorry, EXP boosters, convenience stuff, these aren't selling an advantage. I mean, why would you care if I reach level 50 before you. Why do you care?

maybe in this day in age it doesnt matter, since getting to level cap takes less than 2 weeks. my favorite old mmorpgs i did not even reach level cap because it took a ridiculous amount of time to get there.

Now, if I can buy Sword of Ass-Kicketh that can't be obtained through games and is 10 bucks, then yes, I have an issue with that.

F2P is fine with things like EXP, cosmetics, really anything AS LONG as it can be obtained through game. The only people who are really complaining about micro-trans I believe are kids who really can't buy anything online due to no card or what have you.

Not sure how people are in favor of paying 60 bucks, getting boned, and then being stuck 60 bucks out of your wallet. Flip the situation, you try the game for free, can play all you want, spend upwards of 60 bucks if you think the game is worth it. It justifies it because you were likely going to just pay 60 for another game anyway. I dunno, I don't see much of an issue with it if done correctly.

In my experience its never done correctly. I've seen recently that companies nowadays are allowing you to sell microtransaction items to people in game for a pretty penny, which in the end is equal to trading real money with in game cash.

We can vote with our wallets, which is what we've been doing anyway, which is why you are now getting COD 55. It took me a little while, but once you learn life isn't fair it's much better ;p.

yeah thats understandable. which means theres pretty much no hope for a western AAA mmorpg to actually be any good nowadays, because of the sheer amount of COD 55 gamers out there that are "voting with their wallet." 

 

Most memorable games: AoC(Tryanny PvP), RIFT, GW, GW2, Ragnarok Online, Aion, FFXI, FFXIV, Secret World, League of Legends (Silver II rank)

  aesperus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4755

3/26/13 6:26:11 PM#128
Originally posted by Dogblaster
Originally posted by aesperus

That is a HUGE stretch of an 'advantage'. That's like saying 'having a cool looking outfit gives you an advantage, because you make friends easier / people follow you around more in pvp'.

Basically what this boils down to is this:

A) F2P still need to make money. People can't make a living on nothing. They have mouths to feed and bills to pay, just like everyone else.

B) As long as your view of 'advantage' is skewed enough to basically include literally EVERYTHING, then yes.. in your distorted world view, every game will have paid advantages or (in the extreme cases) be pay2win.

However, what is this really saying? At most it comes across as a poor cry to bring back the subscription model (which also can give advantages to select members if you're going to apply equally distorted view points). So maybe we should just stop playing multiplayer games alltogether, because they all offer advantages depending on who plays more / spends money / has cooler stuff. Etc.

Really.. what's the point?

point is ... p2p ftw :) not because of advantage, who cares, i spent about 600 euro on GW2 cash shop already, money arent the problem. But p2p mmorpgs are the only one I play and I will ever play (and few B2P)  for me f2p = cheap/crap/cashcow (but thats my view only)

That's not a point. That's a preference. You like subscriptions, that's great.

You can't apply such a double standard as to say 'cash shop = advantage, but subscription = who cares if there's an advantage'. Both business models offer advantages to certain players over others. Using your same critisims of the current wave of F2P games, you can infer that subscription games are EQUALLY flawed.

You've also managed to skew the concept of 'advantage' to the point where we are literally talking about things that have no real impact on the game. To use GW2 as an example again, I've literally spent 10$ USD on GW2's gem store. That's it. And yet I literally have more than the majority of players in the game. Why? Because I was smart with how I used my time and money in the game.

Yes, technically that guy with a +50% EXP booster will lvl faster than me, but it ultimately doesn't matter. He's not getting more kills than me in PvP, he's not getting better gear than me, he's not winning more fights, he's not killing more bosses, he's not completing more dungeons, he doesn't have more achievement points, he doesn't have more legendaries than i do, etc. etc. etc.

In short, your definition of 'advantage', while technically accurate, is broad enough to the point where it's meaningless.

  Slappy1

Novice Member

Joined: 12/27/12
Posts: 464

3/26/13 6:30:20 PM#129

I think part of the problem is also that so many people want everything ingame right now.So if anyone get's to ride around on a new mount or has new weapon before them,they perceive it as an advantage.The thing is,what if that other person with the mount/weapon played 2x the hour's as the other guy?I guess that's an advantage also?

To me that's where it's convenience,it's just purely a time saver.

Some day I'm going to put a sword through your eye and out the back of your skull!

Arya Stark

  aesperus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4755

3/26/13 6:33:51 PM#130
Originally posted by Slappy1

I think part of the problem is also that so many people want everything ingame right now.So if anyone get's to ride around on a new mount or has new weapon before them,they perceive it as an advantage.The thing is,what if that other person with the mount/weapon played 2x the hour's as the other guy?I guess that's an advantage also?

To me that's where it's convenience,it's just purely a time saver.

Pretty much, yep.

They're all advantages. That's what makes this whole argument pointless. Any competitive game (aka ALL multiplayer games) have advantages. Even games in which you are only playing cooperatively w/ friends, there are still things you could consider advantages. It's pointless to argue about it when talking about business models. It's waay too vague. It's like arguing pay2fun, or whether one offers better game design than another. There are common sense answers, but the topic is so subjective and broad it can be argued however a person wants.

  gylnne

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/07
Posts: 324

3/26/13 6:38:49 PM#131
Originally posted by gessekai332

F2p games always seem to degrade iinto one of two things:

 

1) p2win or p2get ahead (selling gear with good stats or selling exp boosts).

2) RNG gambling aka pay for a random chance to get some p2win item or advantage (keys for treasure boxes, lockboxes, or crafting success enhancements)

 

Is it possible to make an F2P where you dont result in ultimately granting a person an advantage?

Nope, seen it eventually happen in all the ones I have played. It is just to great a temptation for devs, especially if they have stockholders breathing down their neck to make more money.

  gessekai332

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/31/07
Posts: 865

 
OP  3/26/13 6:40:05 PM#132
Originally posted by UOvet
Why can't I pay for convenience? If you have 8 hours to play and I have 2, why not? What if they limited your time on the game because it wasn't fair? Becaus they would think that's an advantage, which it is since you have more time to play. Things like EXP just close the gap a little.

 

Lets make analogy out of this. Lets say we play a game of one on one basketball. I destroy you 24-0. The reason for this is because i played basketball on a team in highschool, college, and nowadays on weekends. You just recently started playing. when people spend more time on getting better at a game than you, they should be better than you at it. mmorpgs are a game just like basketball, so it should be the same thing. F2P cash shops are kinda like steroid use IRL games. you don't want to spend the extra effort to win, so you just cheat and buy enhancements instead.

Most memorable games: AoC(Tryanny PvP), RIFT, GW, GW2, Ragnarok Online, Aion, FFXI, FFXIV, Secret World, League of Legends (Silver II rank)

  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4824

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

3/26/13 6:48:00 PM#133
Originally posted by gessekai332
Originally posted by UOvet
Why can't I pay for convenience? If you have 8 hours to play and I have 2, why not? What if they limited your time on the game because it wasn't fair? Becaus they would think that's an advantage, which it is since you have more time to play. Things like EXP just close the gap a little.

 

Lets make analogy out of this. Lets say we play a game of one on one basketball. I destroy you 24-0. The reason for this is because i played basketball on a team in highschool, college, and nowadays on weekends. You just recently started playing. when people spend more time on getting better at a game than you, they should be better than you at it. mmorpgs are a game just like basketball, so it should be the same thing. F2P cash shops are kinda like steroid use IRL games. you don't want to spend the extra effort to win, so you just cheat and buy enhancements instead.

if this was a game where significant skill was involvd I would totally agree with you.

MMO are typically not games requiring skill other than patience which I admit is a skill, just not the same kind.  :)

MMO's are typically just about time.  Spending more time in an MMO, doesn't really make you teh player any more skilled, the character is more powerfull, but yourself are not any more skilled really.  (other than knowing mechanics).

Yes there are some that are, and there are some parts of all MMO's that are, but isn't teh majority of the game.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5244

3/27/13 5:00:30 AM#134
Being able to buy weapons in PS2 is not a fair playing field, but by not having a sub they boxed themsleves into that position.
  User Deleted
3/27/13 5:07:34 AM#135
Originally posted by Scot
Being able to buy weapons in PS2 is not a fair playing field, but by not having a sub they boxed themsleves into that position.

Being able to talk about games you haven't played is fair play these days, but shame there are still a few arround that whack a mole the ones that talk without any experience.

  Dogblaster

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 505

3/27/13 5:12:25 AM#136
Originally posted by gessekai332
Originally posted by UOvet
Why can't I pay for convenience? If you have 8 hours to play and I have 2, why not? What if they limited your time on the game because it wasn't fair? Becaus they would think that's an advantage, which it is since you have more time to play. Things like EXP just close the gap a little.

 

Lets make analogy out of this. Lets say we play a game of one on one basketball. I destroy you 24-0. The reason for this is because i played basketball on a team in highschool, college, and nowadays on weekends. You just recently started playing. when people spend more time on getting better at a game than you, they should be better than you at it. mmorpgs are a game just like basketball, so it should be the same thing. F2P cash shops are kinda like steroid use IRL games. you don't want to spend the extra effort to win, so you just cheat and buy enhancements instead.

+1

  User Deleted
3/27/13 5:16:47 AM#137
Originally posted by Dogblaster
Originally posted by gessekai332
Originally posted by UOvet
Why can't I pay for convenience? If you have 8 hours to play and I have 2, why not? What if they limited your time on the game because it wasn't fair? Becaus they would think that's an advantage, which it is since you have more time to play. Things like EXP just close the gap a little.

 

Lets make analogy out of this. Lets say we play a game of one on one basketball. I destroy you 24-0. The reason for this is because i played basketball on a team in highschool, college, and nowadays on weekends. You just recently started playing. when people spend more time on getting better at a game than you, they should be better than you at it. mmorpgs are a game just like basketball, so it should be the same thing. F2P cash shops are kinda like steroid use IRL games. you don't want to spend the extra effort to win, so you just cheat and buy enhancements instead.

+1

the analogy fails because you're talking P2W not F2P there ;)

  free2play

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/13/05
Posts: 1807

3/27/13 6:06:39 AM#138

Free to play is a coffin either way. The only MMO I know of that has developed content after the free play model is LotRO and they sell their expansions to pay for it. You might see games provide small upgrades that were very likely coded and set aside for release but no free platform MMO has ever revamped their engine or added entire new regions to their game worlds.

Yes, games could make a go of it as free to play without pay to win because they don't cost anything to run. Considering they aren't using the money to polish the games, I don't know why anyone would pay to win.

  User Deleted
3/27/13 6:22:35 AM#139
Originally posted by free2play

Free to play is a coffin either way. The only MMO I know of that has developed content after the free play model is LotRO and they sell their expansions to pay for it. You might see games provide small upgrades that were very likely coded and set aside for release but no free platform MMO has ever revamped their engine or added entire new regions to their game worlds.

Yes, games could make a go of it as free to play without pay to win because they don't cost anything to run. Considering they aren't using the money to polish the games, I don't know why anyone would pay to win.

Bend over:

http://fw.perfectworld.com/

http://sto.perfectworld.com/

http://vindictus.nexon.net/

http://www.joymax.com/silkroad/

Need I continue?(there are way more than that, some of which pre-date WoW if I am not mistaken).

  kikoodutroa8

Novice Member

Joined: 6/22/12
Posts: 54

3/27/13 6:31:47 AM#140
Originally posted by gessekai332

F2p games always seem to degrade iinto one of two things:

 

1) p2win or p2get ahead (selling gear with good stats or selling exp boosts).

2) RNG gambling aka pay for a random chance to get some p2win item or advantage (keys for treasure boxes, lockboxes, or crafting success enhancements)

 

Is it possible to make an F2P where you dont result in ultimately granting a person an advantage?

You mean a f2p like Dota2?

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