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General Discussion Forum » The Pub at MMORPG.COM » Is it even possible to make an F2p without selling advatages?

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154 posts found
  kadepsyson

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/15/06
Posts: 1963

The doctors say his chances are 50/50...but there's only a 10% chance of that.

3/26/13 5:48:37 PM#101
Originally posted by rojo6934
Originally posted by kadepsyson
 

Just because it is silly, or because you consider it to not matter, does not mean it does not provide an advantage.

If two people had the same goal of hitting the cap, one had a paid advantage to accomplish that goal.  It might not matter to you, or you might feel they rushed, but they still paid for an advantage.  It's pretty simple, even if you don't care or don't mind.

i dont want to look like im chasing your posts but your reasoning also applies to your side of the argument. I personally dont use exp potions, why? because theres nothing good at level cap, just boring grind. The fun is in the leveling journey. You say its silly to use exp pots, i think they are silly too (except in the case i mentioned in the other post, the lack of time to play). But using exp potions dont make me more powerful than you so i dont have an advantage, if we were racing to level cap and the first to reach it wins a prize then yeah in that case exp pots give advantage, but there is no race to level cap.

I don't believe I said it was silly.

However, levelling faster by paying money (exp potions) is paying for an advantage.

That's all there is to it.

If you do not use it, or think it's fine, or say there's no actual race, or say it doesn't make someone more powerful, or whatever reason you want, that does not change that it is, in fact, a paid advantage.

The advantage is faster levelling.  How much of an advantage can be debated, but it is still very much a paid advantage.

El Psy Congroo

  rojo6934

Elite Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 4546

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

3/26/13 5:52:28 PM#102
Originally posted by kadepsyson
 

I don't believe I said it was silly.

However, levelling faster by paying money (exp potions) is paying for an advantage.

That's all there is to it.

If you do not use it, or think it's fine, or say there's no actual race, or say it doesn't make someone more powerful, or whatever reason you want, that does not change that it is, in fact, a paid advantage.

The advantage is faster levelling.  How much of an advantage can be debated, but it is still very much a paid advantage.

ok, lets asume im paying for exp potions. I want to reach level cap really fast, then at level cap theres nothing to do and i ragequit for wasting money. Where is the advantage? I think leveling speed is more of a convenience and not an advantage.

"in peace, in sleep under the barren, abandoned soil"

  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4328

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

3/26/13 5:54:23 PM#103
How does someone getting to a level ahead of you give them an advantage over you?

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  kadepsyson

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/15/06
Posts: 1963

The doctors say his chances are 50/50...but there's only a 10% chance of that.

3/26/13 5:55:40 PM#104
Originally posted by rojo6934
Originally posted by kadepsyson
 

I don't believe I said it was silly.

However, levelling faster by paying money (exp potions) is paying for an advantage.

That's all there is to it.

If you do not use it, or think it's fine, or say there's no actual race, or say it doesn't make someone more powerful, or whatever reason you want, that does not change that it is, in fact, a paid advantage.

The advantage is faster levelling.  How much of an advantage can be debated, but it is still very much a paid advantage.

ok, lets asume im paying for exp potions. I want to reach level cap really fast, then at level cap theres nothing to do and i ragequit for wasting money. Where is the advantage? I think leveling speed is more of a convenience and not an advantage.

The advantage is that you got there quicker than a hypothetical "all things equal" player who didn't buy the potions.  If you don't like the game once you level higher, that doesn't mean you didn't pay for an advantage.  Hell, it might just mean you paid for an advantage to find out quicker that you hate it, so you could quit early and play something better.

paying for exp potions gives an advantage of faster levelling.  That's their entire purpose.  If you paid for exp potions and they didn't do a damn thing, then there wouldn't be an advantage.  Pretty simple, and really doesn't require any kind of reasons about enjoyment of levelling or what's at the cap questions to understand that exp potions are a paid advantage.

El Psy Congroo

  UOvet

Novice Member

Joined: 6/26/07
Posts: 510

3/26/13 5:56:15 PM#105
Originally posted by kadepsyson
Originally posted by rojo6934
Originally posted by kadepsyson
 

Just because it is silly, or because you consider it to not matter, does not mean it does not provide an advantage.

If two people had the same goal of hitting the cap, one had a paid advantage to accomplish that goal.  It might not matter to you, or you might feel they rushed, but they still paid for an advantage.  It's pretty simple, even if you don't care or don't mind.

i dont want to look like im chasing your posts but your reasoning also applies to your side of the argument. I personally dont use exp potions, why? because theres nothing good at level cap, just boring grind. The fun is in the leveling journey. You say its silly to use exp pots, i think they are silly too (except in the case i mentioned in the other post, the lack of time to play). But using exp potions dont make me more powerful than you so i dont have an advantage, if we were racing to level cap and the first to reach it wins a prize then yeah in that case exp pots give advantage, but there is no race to level cap.

I don't believe I said it was silly.

However, levelling faster by paying money (exp potions) is paying for an advantage.

That's all there is to it.

If you do not use it, or think it's fine, or say there's no actual race, or say it doesn't make someone more powerful, or whatever reason you want, that does not change that it is, in fact, a paid advantage.

The advantage is faster levelling.  How much of an advantage can be debated, but it is still very much a paid advantage.

I believe he was talking to me, however I agree with you. Hitting level cap quicker isn't an advantage in my opinion. To me it just means you went through content faster, no biggie.

 

If you show up in open world with bow +10000 that I can't get through game, yes it's a problem.

 

Convenience? EXP boosters, cosmetics, even things you can obtain in game through shop.

 

Advantage? Everything you can't get in game. If I can buy inventory slot +5, and there is no other way of going about it. That's an issue.

  kadepsyson

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/15/06
Posts: 1963

The doctors say his chances are 50/50...but there's only a 10% chance of that.

3/26/13 5:56:58 PM#106
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
How does someone getting to a level ahead of you give them an advantage over you?

Incorrect.

They paid for the ability to level faster than if they hadn't paid.  That is the advantage.

It does not require any kind of specific game feature, stats, or pvp to make it an advantage.

It is simply that they pay to level faster.  That itself is the advantage, not anything after the fact.

El Psy Congroo

  kadepsyson

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/15/06
Posts: 1963

The doctors say his chances are 50/50...but there's only a 10% chance of that.

3/26/13 5:57:56 PM#107
It's actually amazing me that people aren't able to understand that it's the faster levelling that is the paid advantage, not what is at those higher levels.

El Psy Congroo

  UOvet

Novice Member

Joined: 6/26/07
Posts: 510

3/26/13 5:59:57 PM#108
Originally posted by kadepsyson
It's actually amazing me that people aren't able to understand that it's the faster levelling that is the paid advantage, not what is at those higher levels.

You aren't giving an example of it being an actual advantage over someone else. What you are describing is convenience. People in MMOs need to stop competeting with eachother so much (unless PvP of course). A lot really depends on how the game is set up.

What's the advantage outside of maybe PvP? Which nowadays it's bracketed or something anyway, and if it's in open world that can be negated many ways either player skill or numbers, like I said though, depends kind of how the game is set up to take "advantage" of these "advantages".

  rojo6934

Elite Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 4546

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

3/26/13 6:00:30 PM#109
altering leveling speed with real money is convenience, not advantage. Period.

"in peace, in sleep under the barren, abandoned soil"

  Nihilist

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/08/04
Posts: 543

3/26/13 6:00:39 PM#110

There inheretly has to be an element of pay 2 win in order to get people to buy stuff.

The question is what will a standard box price 50-60 bucks + 15 a month buy you in a FTP game?

Usually it is only a fraction of the content.

LoL champions or Planetside 2 Guns cost hundreds of dollars to outright buy everything.

 

The formula seems to be make the game fun in the beginning, then make the grind so unberable that the player is pretty much forced to pay. FTP just ensures the new people will keep coming into the game. I am most of the people who stick around for a while end up paying just as much or more than a standard game.

  UOvet

Novice Member

Joined: 6/26/07
Posts: 510

3/26/13 6:03:47 PM#111
Originally posted by Nihilist

There inheretly has to be an element of pay 2 win in order to get people to buy stuff.

The question is what will a standard box price 50-60 bucks + 15 a month buy you in a FTP game?

Usually it is only a fraction of the content.

LoL champions or Planetside 2 Guns cost hundreds of dollars to outright buy everything.

 

The formula seems to be make the game fun in the beginning, then make the grind so unberable that the player is pretty much forced to pay. FTP just ensures the new people will keep coming into the game. I am most of the people who stick around for a while end up paying just as much or more than a standard game.

I don't know prices in PS2, but who is going to buy everything really? Assume you grind half and buy the other half. What's that come to? Factor in if they would've charged you for the actual game so there is 60 bucks worth of stuff.

 

The majority, the MAJORITY of people will buy maybe a few dollars worth. You're talking about the 1%.

  kadepsyson

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/15/06
Posts: 1963

The doctors say his chances are 50/50...but there's only a 10% chance of that.

3/26/13 6:04:22 PM#112
Originally posted by rojo6934
altering leveling speed with real money is convenience, not advantage. Period.

So if I could pay real money to acquire a max level character in a game, with all the best equipment possible, instantly, that'd just be convenient right?  Not any kind of possible advantage to have all the best everything for a fee, right?

The real convenience is how easy the games make it to purchase the goods they sell in cash shops.  I'm kind of at a loss to understand why reaching goals quicker through payment is not an advantage no matter what the game or systems in place.

El Psy Congroo

  Dogblaster

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 504

3/26/13 6:05:28 PM#113
Originally posted by UOvet

You aren't giving an example of it being an actual advantage over someone else. What you are describing is convenience. People in MMOs need to stop competeting with eachother so much (unless PvP of course). A lot really depends on how the game is set up.

What's the advantage outside of maybe PvP? Which nowadays it's bracketed or something anyway, and if it's in open world that can be negated many ways either player skill or numbers, like I said though, depends kind of how the game is set up to take "advantage" of these "advantages".

FASTER LEVELING IS ADVANTAGE. Man really? :D ''FASTER'' ... if you could buy a potion to make you poo faster than me that is also paid advantage because you have to spend less time doing it ... :)

 

If me and my friend wanted to create alts, he buys a xp boots I dont, he reach max lvl faster by few days, he is in advantage because he could start farming, grinding the high end gear sooner than I did .. understand now ? :)

we are not talking ''IF'' he reach endgame and dont enjoy it and have nothing to do .. stop using this if if ... has nothing to do with it

 

no matter how big or how small the advantage is, its still an advantage and paid one ... nothing to discuss here

  kadepsyson

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/15/06
Posts: 1963

The doctors say his chances are 50/50...but there's only a 10% chance of that.

3/26/13 6:06:21 PM#114
Originally posted by Dogblaster
Originally posted by UOvet

You aren't giving an example of it being an actual advantage over someone else. What you are describing is convenience. People in MMOs need to stop competeting with eachother so much (unless PvP of course). A lot really depends on how the game is set up.

What's the advantage outside of maybe PvP? Which nowadays it's bracketed or something anyway, and if it's in open world that can be negated many ways either player skill or numbers, like I said though, depends kind of how the game is set up to take "advantage" of these "advantages".

FASTER LEVELING IS ADVANTAGE. Man really? :D ''FASTER'' ... even if you could buy a potion to make you poo faster than me its paid advantage because you have to spend less time doing it ... jezus

 

no matter how big or how small the advantage is, its still an advantage and paid one ... nothing to discuss here

Finally someone gets it :)

El Psy Congroo

  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4328

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

3/26/13 6:08:12 PM#115
Originally posted by kadepsyson
Originally posted by Dogblaster
Originally posted by UOvet

You aren't giving an example of it being an actual advantage over someone else. What you are describing is convenience. People in MMOs need to stop competeting with eachother so much (unless PvP of course). A lot really depends on how the game is set up.

What's the advantage outside of maybe PvP? Which nowadays it's bracketed or something anyway, and if it's in open world that can be negated many ways either player skill or numbers, like I said though, depends kind of how the game is set up to take "advantage" of these "advantages".

FASTER LEVELING IS ADVANTAGE. Man really? :D ''FASTER'' ... even if you could buy a potion to make you poo faster than me its paid advantage because you have to spend less time doing it ... jezus

 

no matter how big or how small the advantage is, its still an advantage and paid one ... nothing to discuss here

Finally someone gets it :)

How is it an advantage.  How does it give someone else something that you won't get.  There is nothing they get by getting there faster.

Faster leveling is not an advantage IMO.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  rojo6934

Elite Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 4546

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

3/26/13 6:09:33 PM#116
Originally posted by kadepsyson
Originally posted by rojo6934
altering leveling speed with real money is convenience, not advantage. Period.

So if I could pay real money to acquire a max level character in a game, with all the best equipment possible, instantly, that'd just be convenient right?  Not any kind of possible advantage to have all the best everything for a fee, right?

The real convenience is how easy the games make it to purchase the goods they sell in cash shops.  I'm kind of at a loss to understand why reaching goals quicker through payment is not an advantage no matter what the game or systems in place.

you are confusing yourself now, first you say leveling speed is advantage, and now you thow in power to the mix.

Paying for Higher Leveling speed is convenience. Paying for Power is advantage.

 

EDIT: the main point is. EXP pots are not Pay to Win. Buying Power IS pay to win.

"in peace, in sleep under the barren, abandoned soil"

  Dogblaster

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 504

3/26/13 6:11:36 PM#117
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

How is it an advantage.  How does it give someone else something that you won't get.  There is nothing they get by getting there faster.

Faster leveling is not an advantage IMO.

So giving someone potion to do bigger damage = killing mobs and finishing dungeons faster is not advantage either right?

Giving osmeone potion to make money faster than I do is not advantage either right?

 

Dont make me laught please ... :D

 

By buying XP boosts someone can level 100 max character by the time I level only 70 .. clear advantage. If you dont see this or dont know world advantage, then I lost fate in this world

  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4508

3/26/13 6:11:49 PM#118
Originally posted by Dogblaster
Originally posted by UOvet

You aren't giving an example of it being an actual advantage over someone else. What you are describing is convenience. People in MMOs need to stop competeting with eachother so much (unless PvP of course). A lot really depends on how the game is set up.

What's the advantage outside of maybe PvP? Which nowadays it's bracketed or something anyway, and if it's in open world that can be negated many ways either player skill or numbers, like I said though, depends kind of how the game is set up to take "advantage" of these "advantages".

FASTER LEVELING IS ADVANTAGE. Man really? :D ''FASTER'' ... even if you could buy a potion to make you poo faster than me its paid advantage because you have to spend less time doing it ... jezus

 

no matter how big or how small the advantage is, its still an advantage and paid one ... nothing to discuss here

That is a HUGE stretch of an 'advantage'. That's like saying 'having a cool looking outfit gives you an advantage, because you make friends easier / people follow you around more in pvp'.

Basically what this boils down to is this:

A) F2P still need to make money. People can't make a living on nothing. They have mouths to feed and bills to pay, just like everyone else.

B) As long as your view of 'advantage' is skewed enough to basically include literally EVERYTHING, then yes.. in your distorted world view, every game will have paid advantages or (in the extreme cases) be pay2win.

However, what is this really saying? At most it comes across as a poor cry to bring back the subscription model (which also can give advantages to select members if you're going to apply equally distorted view points). So maybe we should just stop playing multiplayer games alltogether, because they all offer advantages depending on who plays more / spends money / has cooler stuff. Etc.

Really.. what's the point?

  Dogblaster

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 504

3/26/13 6:13:12 PM#119
Originally posted by rojo6934

you are confusing yourself now, first you say leveling speed is advantage, and now you thow in power to the mix.

Paying for Higher Leveling speed is convenience. Paying for Power is advantage.

:D :D :D

okey ... I mean whatever you say bro

  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4328

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

3/26/13 6:14:48 PM#120
Originally posted by Dogblaster
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

How is it an advantage.  How does it give someone else something that you won't get.  There is nothing they get by getting there faster.

Faster leveling is not an advantage IMO.

So giving someone potion to do bigger damage = killing mobs and finishing dungeons faster is not advantage either right?

Giving osmeone potion to make money faster than I do is not advantage either right?

 

Dont make me laught please ... :D

 

By buying XP boosts someone can level 100 max character by the time I level only 70 .. clear advantage. If you dont see this or dont know world advantage, then I lost fate in this world

You are mixing issues.

One is a weapon that lets you do more dmg.  This is gear.  It will have repercussions other than time - such as killing more powerfull mobs for more powerfull drops and coin.

Faster leveling is about how long it takes you to get to the end game, not about how much dmg you do along the way, or how much power you have.

Gear, power and time are different issues.

If at the end of the levelling process the one who paid for it had something more than the other person it woudl be an advantage, they don't, so it isn't.

If it takes me 2 months to make lvl 100, and you 2 days.  What do you have over me when I am 100... nothing.

edit -  I personally don't care how long it takes someone to get to end game, if there is one.   The only people who IMO shuld care about time to level are teople concerned about world firsts - an they only get recognition.

Isn't it about the journey?

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

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