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General Discussion Forum » The Pub at MMORPG.COM » Is it even possible to make an F2p without selling advatages?

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154 posts found
  dadante666

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/07/11
Posts: 397

you stop laughing when hear the same joke ,but always cry for the same thing...

3/26/13 10:42:54 AM#81
Originally posted by gessekai332

F2p games always seem to degrade iinto one of two things:

 

1) p2win or p2get ahead (selling gear with good stats or selling exp boosts).

2) RNG gambling aka pay for a random chance to get some p2win item or advantage (keys for treasure boxes, lockboxes, or crafting success enhancements)

 

Is it possible to make an F2P where you dont result in ultimately granting a person an advantage?

gw2-neverwinter-poe-tsw thos gamer have micros. and dont give any advantage at all

  Aelious

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2260

World > Quest Progression

3/26/13 11:30:23 AM#82
Narius

As more competition is launched that 6:1 ratio is going to hurt F2P a lot more than P2P since the players are more apt to wander. You'll just have to see for yourself I guess. It doesn't really matter to me as I don't mind paying for good entertainment.
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17961

3/26/13 11:54:11 AM#83
Originally posted by Aelious
Narius

As more competition is launched that 6:1 ratio is going to hurt F2P a lot more than P2P since the players are more apt to wander. You'll just have to see for yourself I guess. It doesn't really matter to me as I don't mind paying for good entertainment.

Hurt whom? The market cannot be hurt .. it is what it is.

Some devs are going to be hurt .. sure .. but who cares? As long as the F2P market is growing, there are plenty of devs and games.

And note that P2P is competing with F2P too.

I don't "mind" paying for good entertainment .. but why would i refuse good entertainment pushed to me for free? That is even BETTER!

  Spiider

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/15/05
Posts: 407

3/26/13 11:56:19 AM#84

Yes its possible.

But to make profitable one without selling advantages - NO FRICKING WAY.

It's about the dough, cash, bling bling. Not about making games. You get that don't you?

No fate but what we make, so make me a ham sandwich please.

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11360

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

3/26/13 11:56:41 AM#85
Originally posted by Aelious
Let's say you're right, and for most full featured MMOs I'd agree with you, charging for the client is not F2P, which was my point.

I was arguing against F2P being the future of all MMOs. So I agree with you, B2P is a feasible model for making and releasing an MMO that can sustain itself. You would still need a good initial sales of course or you may come into the same problem as F2P titles.

"B2P" is a term made up by gamers who, when asked, will reject the notion that they are paying a box price for what would otherwise be a F2P game. "B2P" is not a business model. It is a stellar example of the cognitive dissonance that resonates in some anti-F2P circles where, when a choice of a) microtransactions or b) microtransactions with a box price up front, the latter is perceived as better or of higher quality because there is a charge for it, despite the clearly logical choice being the exact opposite.

ArenaNet's marketing team couldn't have asked for a better gift from the F2P-averse gamers, because once that crowd rationalized that the game was "B2P" it got ANet off the hook from having to defend their F2P game with that same crowd. The crowd not only didn't speak out against the game, but went as far as to champion it.

 

 

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17961

3/26/13 1:02:41 PM#86
Originally posted by Loktofeit

ArenaNet's marketing team couldn't have asked for a better gift from the F2P-averse gamers, because once that crowd rationalized that the game was "B2P" it got ANet off the hook from having to defend their F2P game with that same crowd. The crowd not only didn't speak out against the game, but went as far as to champion it.

 

 

 

That is based on two erroneous assumptions.

First, B2P is the same as F2P. Paying $40 up front is very different than not paying anything and  can start playing. Whether you call it "cost of entry" or "B2P" is immaterial. There is a substantial difference in the financial arrangement.

Second, you assume people should care about F2P-averse gamers. As of 2012, F2P gamers outnumber P2P ones 6 to 1. I doubt Arenanet would care to use a marketing gimmick to appease those who do not like F2P. They are in the far minority anyway.

  laokoko

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/14/09
Posts: 1845

3/26/13 2:28:33 PM#87

ya I mean.  GW2 is kind of seperated from the other competition because it does sell box.  And "most" people arn't bothered by the advantage you can buy with their cash shop.

Since you can't really buy power since all gear is easily acquired.  I think that is what seperate them from the other competition.  And they dont' have as much "content lock" compare to other hybrid f2p/sub games such as swtor, lotro etc.  I hate how those games lock your class or race, even limit your skill sometimes.

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11360

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

3/26/13 3:20:40 PM#88
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Loktofeit

ArenaNet's marketing team couldn't have asked for a better gift from the F2P-averse gamers, because once that crowd rationalized that the game was "B2P" it got ANet off the hook from having to defend their F2P game with that same crowd. The crowd not only didn't speak out against the game, but went as far as to champion it.

That is based on two erroneous assumptions.

First, B2P is the same as F2P. Paying $40 up front is very different than not paying anything and  can start playing. Whether you call it "cost of entry" or "B2P" is immaterial. There is a substantial difference in the financial arrangement.

Second, you assume people should care about F2P-averse gamers. As of 2012, F2P gamers outnumber P2P ones 6 to 1. I doubt Arenanet would care to use a marketing gimmick to appease those who do not like F2P. They are in the far minority anyway.

On your first point, I don't see what that has to do with what I had stated in the paragraph you omitted.

On the second point, the devs do care. It's the difference between managing a message emanating from a vocal minority that isn't even going to shell out money for the game, and not having to manage that message and gettig money from that group that otherwise wouldn't have spent anythingon the game.

 

Is this another one of those arguement for the sake of arguing posts? Better yet, don't bother replying - I won't see it.

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17961

3/26/13 3:49:50 PM#89
Originally posted by Loktofeit

On the second point, the devs do care. It's the difference between managing a message emanating from a vocal minority that isn't even going to shell out money for the game, and not having to manage that message and gettig money from that group that otherwise wouldn't have spent anythingon the game.


 

And you would know because?

How would such a vocal minority affects sales? Look at all the F2P games .. the vocal minority who hate F2P has little effect.

  Purutzil

Elite Member

Joined: 10/02/11
Posts: 2658

The Critical Hit Pretzel!

3/26/13 3:52:42 PM#90
Originally posted by dadante666

gw2-neverwinter-poe-tsw thos gamer have micros. and dont give any advantage at all

Well Guildwars 2 I believe has exp scrolls which can be considered an advantage, and also trading directly gems for gold is an advantage as well. Neverwinter has I believe increased scrolls (might be wrong but pretty sure on that). Not sure about TSW, though I know PoE doesnt have anything of that sort, HOWEVER, you could claim that extra stash tabs 'COULD' be considered an advantage, particularly for gearing up newer characters having more space to put more stuff.

  Banquetto

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/06/09
Posts: 1017

3/26/13 4:34:18 PM#91
B2P is not a business model, Loktofeit? It was the only model for games for decades, and has always been by far the most common one outside of a few small niches like MMOs. I swear MMO players live in a bubble where boxes on store shelves don't exist.
  UOvet

Novice Member

Joined: 6/26/07
Posts: 510

3/26/13 5:23:44 PM#92

Depends what you value as an advantage. I'm sorry, EXP boosters, convenience stuff, these aren't selling an advantage. I mean, why would you care if I reach level 50 before you. Why do you care?

 

Now, if I can buy Sword of Ass-Kicketh that can't be obtained through games and is 10 bucks, then yes, I have an issue with that.

 

F2P is fine with things like EXP, cosmetics, really anything AS LONG as it can be obtained through game. The only people who are really complaining about micro-trans I believe are kids who really can't buy anything online due to no card or what have you.

 

Not sure how people are in favor of paying 60 bucks, getting boned, and then being stuck 60 bucks out of your wallet. Flip the situation, you try the game for free, can play all you want, spend upwards of 60 bucks if you think the game is worth it. It justifies it because you were likely going to just pay 60 for another game anyway. I dunno, I don't see much of an issue with it if done correctly.

 

We can vote with our wallets, which is what we've been doing anyway, which is why you are now getting COD 55. It took me a little while, but once you learn life isn't fair it's much better ;p.

  kadepsyson

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/15/06
Posts: 1963

The doctors say his chances are 50/50...but there's only a 10% chance of that.

3/26/13 5:26:44 PM#93
Originally posted by UOvet

Depends what you value as an advantage. I'm sorry, EXP boosters, convenience stuff, these aren't selling an advantage. I mean, why would you care if I reach level 50 before you. Why do you care?

 

Now, if I can buy Sword of Ass-Kicketh that can't be obtained through games and is 10 bucks, then yes, I have an issue with that.

 

F2P is fine with things like EXP, cosmetics, really anything AS LONG as it can be obtained through game. The only people who are really complaining about micro-trans I believe are kids who really can't buy anything online due to no card or what have you.

 

Not sure how people are in favor of paying 60 bucks, getting boned, and then being stuck 60 bucks out of your wallet. Flip the situation, you try the game for free, can play all you want, spend upwards of 60 bucks if you think the game is worth it. It justifies it because you were likely going to just pay 60 for another game anyway. I dunno, I don't see much of an issue with it if done correctly.

 

We can vote with our wallets, which is what we've been doing anyway, which is why you are now getting COD 55.

So you don't consider reaching higher levels quicker than other people through paying money to be an advantage?

Or do you not care about it that much?

There is a difference.

 

Also, there are plenty of free to play games, and have been for decades, that don't sell advantages.  They don't sell anything, actually.  I used to play a ton of freeware games years ago.

El Psy Congroo

  rojo6934

Elite Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 4546

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

3/26/13 5:29:24 PM#94
Originally posted by gessekai332

F2p games always seem to degrade iinto one of two things:

 

1) p2win or p2get ahead (selling gear with good stats or selling exp boosts).

2) RNG gambling aka pay for a random chance to get some p2win item or advantage (keys for treasure boxes, lockboxes, or crafting success enhancements)

 

Is it possible to make an F2P where you dont result in ultimately granting a person an advantage?

yes it is possible, but it needs to be in the right hands, a thing that is rare to see these days with so many f2p games coming from eastern (and some western) companies nobody knows in the west (or well known for being infamous) and bam! we get the wrong impression first and start generalizing.

"in peace, in sleep under the barren, abandoned soil"

  UOvet

Novice Member

Joined: 6/26/07
Posts: 510

3/26/13 5:30:08 PM#95
Originally posted by kadepsyson
Originally posted by UOvet

Depends what you value as an advantage. I'm sorry, EXP boosters, convenience stuff, these aren't selling an advantage. I mean, why would you care if I reach level 50 before you. Why do you care?

 

Now, if I can buy Sword of Ass-Kicketh that can't be obtained through games and is 10 bucks, then yes, I have an issue with that.

 

F2P is fine with things like EXP, cosmetics, really anything AS LONG as it can be obtained through game. The only people who are really complaining about micro-trans I believe are kids who really can't buy anything online due to no card or what have you.

 

Not sure how people are in favor of paying 60 bucks, getting boned, and then being stuck 60 bucks out of your wallet. Flip the situation, you try the game for free, can play all you want, spend upwards of 60 bucks if you think the game is worth it. It justifies it because you were likely going to just pay 60 for another game anyway. I dunno, I don't see much of an issue with it if done correctly.

 

We can vote with our wallets, which is what we've been doing anyway, which is why you are now getting COD 55.

So you don't consider reaching higher levels quicker than other people through paying money to be an advantage?

Or do you not care about it that much?

There is a difference.

 

Also, there are plenty of free to play games, and have been for decades, that don't sell advantages.  They don't sell anything, actually.  I used to play a ton of freeware games years ago.

I must have a different mind set. I truely don't see how me reaching 50 before you or anyone else should matter. It doesn't affect you or anyone else really. I've never seen the point in rushing to level cap anyway. Never, I mean, I bought the game, why not enjoy it? I feel people just rush through stuff making it a competetion nowadays between gamers. It's silly.

 

I blame it on what I call "The Achievement Era", because if you aren't doing it the fastest or first then you are a noob or loser. That's what it seems like to me anyway.

  kadepsyson

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/15/06
Posts: 1963

The doctors say his chances are 50/50...but there's only a 10% chance of that.

3/26/13 5:34:38 PM#96
Originally posted by UOvet
Originally posted by kadepsyson
Originally posted by UOvet

Depends what you value as an advantage. I'm sorry, EXP boosters, convenience stuff, these aren't selling an advantage. I mean, why would you care if I reach level 50 before you. Why do you care?

 

Now, if I can buy Sword of Ass-Kicketh that can't be obtained through games and is 10 bucks, then yes, I have an issue with that.

 

F2P is fine with things like EXP, cosmetics, really anything AS LONG as it can be obtained through game. The only people who are really complaining about micro-trans I believe are kids who really can't buy anything online due to no card or what have you.

 

Not sure how people are in favor of paying 60 bucks, getting boned, and then being stuck 60 bucks out of your wallet. Flip the situation, you try the game for free, can play all you want, spend upwards of 60 bucks if you think the game is worth it. It justifies it because you were likely going to just pay 60 for another game anyway. I dunno, I don't see much of an issue with it if done correctly.

 

We can vote with our wallets, which is what we've been doing anyway, which is why you are now getting COD 55.

So you don't consider reaching higher levels quicker than other people through paying money to be an advantage?

Or do you not care about it that much?

There is a difference.

 

Also, there are plenty of free to play games, and have been for decades, that don't sell advantages.  They don't sell anything, actually.  I used to play a ton of freeware games years ago.

I must have a different mind set. I truely don't see how me reaching 50 before you or anyone else should matter. It doesn't affect you or anyone else really. I've never seen the point in rushing to level cap anyway. Never, I mean, I bought the game, why not enjoy it? I feel people just rush through stuff making it a competetion nowadays between gamers. It's silly.

 

I blame it on what I call "The Achievement Era", because if you aren't doing it the fastest or first then you are a noob or loser. That's what it seems like to me anyway.

Just because it is silly, or because you consider it to not matter, does not mean it does not provide an advantage.

If two people had the same goal of hitting the cap, one had a paid advantage to accomplish that goal.  It might not matter to you, or you might feel they rushed, but they still paid for an advantage.  It's pretty simple, even if you don't care or don't mind.

El Psy Congroo

  rojo6934

Elite Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 4546

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

3/26/13 5:36:03 PM#97
Originally posted by kadepsyson
 

So you don't consider reaching higher levels quicker than other people through paying money to be an advantage?

Or do you not care about it that much?

There is a difference.

 

Also, there are plenty of free to play games, and have been for decades, that don't sell advantages.  They don't sell anything, actually.  I used to play a ton of freeware games years ago.

experience boosts dont break mmos. If it takes you 1 month to reach level cap playing 3 hour every day and i can only play 1 hour a day not every day. I can use exp boosts to reach cap quicker or it would take me many many months. There is nothing wrong with exp boosts, ist not like they are waiting for you at lvl cap to award you awesome powers for buying the exp boost.

Also you may have noticed on most f2p mmos give you lots of cash shop items and exp pots for free (to fill up your inventory and make you buy extra bags lol.

Regarding freeware games, me too, ive played tons and they werent mmos so they dont need money to keep employees with full bellies and gamers playing.

"in peace, in sleep under the barren, abandoned soil"

  kadepsyson

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/15/06
Posts: 1963

The doctors say his chances are 50/50...but there's only a 10% chance of that.

3/26/13 5:38:20 PM#98
Originally posted by rojo6934
Originally posted by kadepsyson
 

So you don't consider reaching higher levels quicker than other people through paying money to be an advantage?

Or do you not care about it that much?

There is a difference.

 

Also, there are plenty of free to play games, and have been for decades, that don't sell advantages.  They don't sell anything, actually.  I used to play a ton of freeware games years ago.

experience boosts dont break mmos. If it takes you 1 month to reach level cap playing 3 hour every day and i can only play 1 hour a day not every day. I can use exp boosts to reach cap quicker or it would take me many many months. There is nothing wrong with exp boosts, ist not like they are waiting for you at lvl cap to award you awesome powers for buying the exp boost.

Also you may have noticed on most f2p mmos give you lots of cash shop items and exp pots for free (to fill up your inventory and make you buy extra bags lol.

Regarding freeware games, me too, ive played tons and they werent mmos so they dont need money to keep employees with full bellies and gamers playing.

You may not consider there to be anything WRONG with exp boosts, however, the entire point of them is to provide a paid advantage - levelling up quicker.

I'm not saying they are right, wrong, game breaking, or whatever, just that they are an advantage despite some people thinking they are silly or don't matter much.

El Psy Congroo

  rojo6934

Elite Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 4546

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

3/26/13 5:45:40 PM#99
Originally posted by kadepsyson
 

Just because it is silly, or because you consider it to not matter, does not mean it does not provide an advantage.

If two people had the same goal of hitting the cap, one had a paid advantage to accomplish that goal.  It might not matter to you, or you might feel they rushed, but they still paid for an advantage.  It's pretty simple, even if you don't care or don't mind.

i dont want to look like im chasing your posts but your reasoning also applies to your side of the argument. I personally dont use exp potions, why? because theres nothing good at level cap, just boring grind. The fun is in the leveling journey. You say its silly to use exp pots, i think they are silly too (except in the case i mentioned in the other post, the lack of time to play). But using exp potions dont make me more powerful than you so i dont have an advantage, if we were racing to level cap and the first to reach it wins a prize then yeah in that case exp pots give advantage, but there is no race to level cap. Lvl cap is the worst part of mmos. I wish i could never reach it.

"in peace, in sleep under the barren, abandoned soil"

  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4508

3/26/13 5:46:30 PM#100
Originally posted by kadepsyson

You may not consider there to be anything WRONG with exp boosts, however, the entire point of them is to provide a paid advantage - levelling up quicker.

I'm not saying they are right, wrong, game breaking, or whatever, just that they are an advantage despite some people thinking they are silly or don't matter much.

The problem is, many people (at least on this site) seem to think an EXP booster = pay2win. It absolutely doesn't. Paying for convenience & cosmetics are the 2 main ways in which F2P games make money. They need to exist, and aren't game breaking.

Pay2Win constitutes buying power (thus giving players an advantage they couldn't earn without paying). You still earn exp if you don't pay (in every f2p game I've ever played), it just might not be as quickly.

When people like the OP open their mind a bit to what's actually going on in F2P, they might realize that a majority of F2P games are actually NOT pay2win. They used to be, but that has changed. Games like GW2, TERA, PS2, PoE, LoL, Dota2, Neverwinter, etc. etc. They all offer some combination of convenience / cosmetic items, but none of them offer power. The RNG  complaint seems also silly, as it's completely optional. It's like a gambler going into a casino, and then complaining the odds aren't in his favor.

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