Originally posted by Arclan

 

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Originally posted by KLECKO
F2p = hackers

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This. Plus nothing in life is free. Rather than charging a fair price, F2P games use deception and trickery to prod you to keep reaching for your wallet. All F2P games that I know of offer character advancement for a fee (xp potions). Meaning all F2P games are P2W. I will not ever download a F2P game.

 

Ok lets remove this from the discussion.  I doubt any of us here ACTUALLY believe F2P means absolutely FREE.

F2P is a limited trial that essentially allows you to try out the game. Some allow longer 'try outs' than others.  But the end of the day they want you to sub.  I'm not against that, but dont want to sub until I know I will be enjoying all aspects of it.

Interesting to point out are F2P only games.  I have played a few, mostly from Aria Games (Eden Eternal, Grand Fantasia, and a few others).  They are of cheaper quality and have heard that 'end game' is all cash shop, but I have to be honest.  I enjoyed the time I played them especially Eden Eternal.   I didnt pay a dime.  

Isnt that the point?

Originally posted by XAPGames

Free 2 Play blurs the distinction between achievers and purchasers.

 

I have a cool mount in Runes of Magic.

Did I do some long quest chain?  No.

Did my character slay some mega-boss?  No.

Did I grind reputation for hours? No.

 

How did I get it?  Credit card.

 

See the blur?  Am I an achiever for having my mount?

 

good point and I dont know :-)

I'm more interested in why someone would care if you paid for a mount or not?  And how that purchase affects their game.

I've paid for mounts before but it was because I was damn tired of walking.  Thats how I roll ;-)

Originally posted by darkhalf357x

  I doubt any of us here ACTUALLY believe F2P means absolutely FREE.

yet about 90% of players MAKE IT so for them it's that way.

what they believe doesn't really matter. it's only what they do.

It can mean absoluely free for me if I want it to be. You (metaphorically, I'm talking about developers) can't stop me.

and on such a shaky business model...things can go unstable quickly. And now I'm really not investing in something that's so unstable.

see the issue ?

Originally posted by Starpower

I don't like being nickled and dimed in the games I play period. Specially when it comes to slowing my progression or halting it to entice me to buy things to keep everything at a normal pace.  I have yet to see a F2P title that truly only let me pay for the features I want.

 

For instance I could care less about raids so I feel it should be an optional payment option. I want F2P titles work the same way my TV Provider does. I can pick and choose between the programs I want and only pay for those period. Not having a multitude of channels part of a package I will never use.

I like PvP so that should be one of the features you could add as well. And avoid paying for if you have no interest.

 

These are just examples but I feel it should extend far beyond that instead of just adding roadblocks to a game to get you to buy things

What TV provider do you have? 

Here in NYC you dont get none of that.  For one, you get the provider in your area. Period.  You dont get a choice.  You cant pick and choose (well you can if you consider FiOS an option - but its not for me).

I cant JUST buy HBO without getting the entire HBO package which has channels I dont watch.  But my favorite is I cant get the FEAR network (one new channel) without buying the entire Encore suite.

Cable TV has to be the most monopolistic business out there.

back on topic ... I do believe there may be a separate between PvE'ers and PvP'ers.  I can see F2P affecting the latter over the former since competition is introduced.

Originally posted by Robokapp

Originally posted by darkhalf357x

  I doubt any of us here ACTUALLY believe F2P means absolutely FREE.

yet about 90% of players MAKE IT so for them it's that way.

 

what they believe doesn't really matter. it's only what they do.

 

It can mean absoluely free for me if I want it to be. You (metaphorically, I'm talking about developers) can't stop me.

 

and on such a shaky business model...things can go unstable quickly. And now I'm really not investing in something that's so unstable.

 

see the issue ?

League of Legends, World of Tanks, DDO, Age of Conan, stop me when your argument sinks completely. Good F2P games will never be shakey because people will love them and want to support them, that's why most of the crap F2Ps slowly die off while the decent to good ones live on (christ World of Tanks isn't even a MMO in the real sense of the word and its shakey as a game can get but it shot through the roof and turned Wargamming into an international player in the games world).

Originally posted by Robokapp

Originally posted by darkhalf357x

  I doubt any of us here ACTUALLY believe F2P means absolutely FREE.

yet about 90% of players MAKE IT so for them it's that way.

 

what they believe doesn't really matter. it's only what they do.

 

It can mean absoluely free for me if I want it to be. You (metaphorically, I'm talking about developers) can't stop me.

 

and on such a shaky business model...things can go unstable quickly. And now I'm really not investing in something that's so unstable.

 

see the issue ?

No. :-)

As I dont understand how someone could do something they dont believe, but wouldnt put it past people....

It can only be free if you are content to live within whatever limitations are placed by the F2P model.  But again I personally don't believe thats an issue for the model.  If the game that is using the F2P model is 'crap' (not fun too the masses, etc) no amount of making it free or paying for it could save the game.

Stability to me comes from quality, or at least the selling of that perception which could be B2P or F2P.   Paying money does not always equal better.  SWTOR proved that pretty well.

Originally posted by Robokapp

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by Robokapp

developers are focusing on "how can we force inconvenience that can be circumvented by the cash shop" vs "how can we cause enjoyment for people who already pay and who we want to keep paying".

simple. there's no other reason they'd limit bag space for example.  ther's no technical limitation. They do it to inconvenience you on purpose.

I'm not going to pay someone who deicates his career to inconveniencing me.

What about speed bumps, locks, and time constraints in sub-locked games?  How is that not imposing artificial limits, not technical limits, in order to squeeze more cash out of subscribers?

Perhpas - most liely - it is. However...it affects everyone equally.

 

not the rich one way an the peasants another. That's why it's more tolerable knowing every player is on equal ground in this sense.

 

 

If enjoyment is subjective how do we quantify?  Is limited bag space really a big/major issue to playing a game?  Its not for me (in the sense if I want more bag space I buy it without a second thought).  but that transaction in and of itself says that I enjoy the game.  As opposed to giving me (say) unlimited bag space but I dont like the game.

When we talk equal ground are you speaking in the context of PvP?  Because as a PvE'er I dont care what a rich person does.  It doesnt affect my game (hasn't yet) nor has it ruined my enjoyment.

Why do we care what other gamers do/buy?

Simple

Sub only model, every item in the game can be had in a reasonable amount of time for 15 bucks a month.

F2P cash shop model.  Every item in the game CANNOT be achieved in a resonable amount of time even spending 15 a month as if it was a sub game, unless you open your wallet WIDE.  And the entire game is developed to drive you to the cash shop to spend more and more money.  So instead of creating items and content to be consumed for your 15 a month in a sub only game, items and content are created soley to part you with as much cash as possible.

Simpl as that.

Originally posted by snapfusion

Simple

 

Sub only model, every item in the game can be had in a reasonable amount of time for 15 bucks a month.

 

F2P cash shop model.  Every item in the game CANNOT be achieved in a resonable amount of time even spending 15 a month as if it was a sub game, unless you open your wallet WIDE.  And the entire game is developed to drive you to the cash shop to spend more and more money.  So instead of creating items and content to be consumed for your 15 a month in a sub only game, items and content are created soley to part you with as much cash as possible.

 

Simpl as that.

If you lived in Asia....a decade ago....maybe.

Originally posted by snapfusion

Simple

 

Sub only model, every item in the game can be had in a reasonable amount of time for 15 bucks a month.

 

F2P cash shop model.  Every item in the game CANNOT be achieved in a resonable amount of time even spending 15 a month as if it was a sub game, unless you open your wallet WIDE.  And the entire game is developed to drive you to the cash shop to spend more and more money.  So instead of creating items and content to be consumed for your 15 a month in a sub only game, items and content are created soley to part you with as much cash as possible.

 

Simpl as that.

Over generalized.  Can you provide concrete examples?

You also make some wide assumptions.  Such as all players wanting every achievement in the game.  The entire game developed to drive you to the cash shop.

You just simply prefer to pay for something you may not fully utilize... which is fine.  But that doesnt make the opposite using F2P model bad.

Originally posted by Robokapp

which part of this imbecilical post should i adress first?

"deal with it". what was the point of this? Did this have a point at all ?

"fixed that for you". You couldn't state your argument in a civilised manner, had to choose the hostile one, didn't you? Oh wait you posted the word "because". followed by nothing that'd justify it. soooo.

"Because". see above.

"the MMO world is waking up". Citation needed.

"bandwidth bla bla bla". what about the other costs ?surely hosting 1999 graphics today is cheaper, but developing 2009 era graphics is more expensive. where do they get the extra money from ?

"A ton of profit". profit is not measured by weight.

"the lie is dieing". your lack of proper grammar aside, lies aren't alive therefore can't die.

"as is the pay model". speculation. citation needed.

 

 And which part of your imbecilical post should I address first?

"what was the point of this? Did this have a point at all ?" Having so little to refute so im going to quote something and then mention how little it matters.

"You couldn't state your argument in a civilised manner, had to choose the hostile one" inventing a redherring to cover up the fact your original post was puerile nonesense worthy only of satire.

"Citation needed." Go read Sony's, Funcoms, Turbines and EAs comments about how Subscriptions are becoming a thing of the past, only people who have their heads up their backsides dont know about it, everyone else is trying to fool themselves into thinking it isnt happening.

"but developing 2009 era graphics is more expensive. where do they get the extra money from ?" Go ask NCsoft how they are doing, go ask Nexon Co how they are able to make 500 MILLION dollars worth of take-overs in 1 1/2 years off of F2P profits how they did it.

"profit is not measured by weight" No but profit IS a measure of a SUCCESSFUL BUSINESS...derp.

"lies aren't alive therefore can't die" Yep but you have proved that hurr can durr.

"speculation. citation needed." See above, the industry is leaving you behind and I am really HOPING you stick to your morals and stop playing when the last of the sub games go F2P.

Originally posted by Robokapp

Originally posted by jtcgs

Originally posted by Robokapp

developers are focusing on "how can we cause enjoyment that can be enhanced by the cash shop" vs "how can we force people to continue to be suckered out of money every month over a 14 year old lie".

I'm not going to pay someone who dedicates his career to deceiving me.

 Fixed that for you because the MMO world is waking up to the fact that bandwidth and server costs arent as high as it was 14 years ago and companies can make a ton of profits from cash shops. The lie is dieing as is the pay model. Deal with it.

which part of this imbecilical post should i adress first?

 

"deal with it". what was the point of this? Did this have a point at all ?

"fixed that for you". You couldn't state your argument in a civilised manner, had to choose the hostile one, didn't you? Oh wait you posted the word "because". followed by nothing that'd justify it. soooo.

"Because". see above.

"the MMO world is waking up". Citation needed.

"bandwidth bla bla bla". what about the other costs ?surely hosting 1999 graphics today is cheaper, but developing 2009 era graphics is more expensive. where do they get the extra money from ?

"A ton of profit". profit is not measured by weight.

"the lie is dieing". your lack of proper grammar aside, lies aren't alive therefore can't die.

"as is the pay model". speculation. citation needed.

 

You forgot when this """lie"""  started he was 10 years old.

Also from his profile "mmo experience limited to WoW and EVE",  both subscription games btw.

Originally posted by snapfusion

Simple

 

Sub only model, every item in the game can be had in a reasonable amount of time for 15 bucks a month.

 

F2P cash shop model.  Every item in the game CANNOT be achieved in a resonable amount of time even spending 15 a month as if it was a sub game, unless you open your wallet WIDE.  And the entire game is developed to drive you to the cash shop to spend more and more money.  So instead of creating items and content to be consumed for your 15 a month in a sub only game, items and content are created soley to part you with as much cash as possible.

 

Simpl as that.

That's what it all boils down to; if you want to enjoy a video game in it's entirety, and not just bits and pieces, then "F2P" is going to be significantly more expensive.

When I purchased my first MMO at EB games, I was shocked when the guy at the desk asked me if I also wanted to buy a 60 day time card. I couldn't believe this $60 game also required a subscription to keep playing. However, it quickly became clear why this was a part of the deal with games in this genre, and it's such a small amount of money for such a large amount of entertainment. "F2P", on the other hand, simply cannot match the bang for buck of a P2P game (assuming of course, you are not fully satisfied with bits and pieces of an entertainment product).

Originally posted by Cecropia

Originally posted by snapfusion

Simple

 

Sub only model, every item in the game can be had in a reasonable amount of time for 15 bucks a month.

 

F2P cash shop model.  Every item in the game CANNOT be achieved in a resonable amount of time even spending 15 a month as if it was a sub game, unless you open your wallet WIDE.  And the entire game is developed to drive you to the cash shop to spend more and more money.  So instead of creating items and content to be consumed for your 15 a month in a sub only game, items and content are created soley to part you with as much cash as possible.

 

Simpl as that.

That's what it all boils down to; if you want to enjoy a video game in it's entirety, and not just bits and pieces, then "F2P" is going to be significantly more expensive.

When I purchased my first MMO at EB games, I was shocked when the guy at the desk asked me if I also wanted to buy a 60 day time card. I couldn't believe this $60 game also required a subscription to keep playing. However, it quickly became clear why this was a part of the deal with games in this genre, and it's such a small amount of money for such a large amount of entertainment. "F2P", on the other hand, simply cannot match the bang for buck of a P2P game (assuming of course, you are not fully satisfied with bits and pieces of an entertainment product).

 

 Possibly.

I however have never played a game in it's entirety, any video game, ever.  F2p games give me exactly what I'm paying WoW or EQ or EQ2 (when they were p2p) or Istaria or FF...  I"m playing them the exact same way.

And since no game out so far is giving me exactly what I want I don't see the down side.

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by Cecropia

Originally posted by snapfusion

Simple

 

Sub only model, every item in the game can be had in a reasonable amount of time for 15 bucks a month.

 

F2P cash shop model.  Every item in the game CANNOT be achieved in a resonable amount of time even spending 15 a month as if it was a sub game, unless you open your wallet WIDE.  And the entire game is developed to drive you to the cash shop to spend more and more money.  So instead of creating items and content to be consumed for your 15 a month in a sub only game, items and content are created soley to part you with as much cash as possible.

 

Simpl as that.

That's what it all boils down to; if you want to enjoy a video game in it's entirety, and not just bits and pieces, then "F2P" is going to be significantly more expensive.

When I purchased my first MMO at EB games, I was shocked when the guy at the desk asked me if I also wanted to buy a 60 day time card. I couldn't believe this $60 game also required a subscription to keep playing. However, it quickly became clear why this was a part of the deal with games in this genre, and it's such a small amount of money for such a large amount of entertainment. "F2P", on the other hand, simply cannot match the bang for buck of a P2P game (assuming of course, you are not fully satisfied with bits and pieces of an entertainment product).

 

 Possibly.

I however have never played a game in it's entirety, any video game, ever.  F2p games give me exactly what I'm paying WoW or EQ or EQ2 (when they were p2p) or Istaria or FF...  I"m playing them the exact same way.

And since no game out so far is giving me exactly what I want I don't see the down side.

Well, for a gamer of your playstyle, I can totally understand why this model works for you. It makes sense. But, for someone such as myself, it just gets ridiculous as I tend to want to experience everything that a game has to offer.

Nothing. Its simply a different business model.  There have been horrible P2P and B2P games as well. Unless Dear Leader issues some dictate or another, anything you purchase from a cash shop is done by your  own *choice*.

The hysterics who rant and rave about F2P games seem to forget that.

Originally posted by RefMinor

Because, the developers deliberately build a road filled with potholes and then sell you bags of rubble to fill in the holes.

I would rather the developers would develop the best game they can in terms of gameplay and then charge me a set fee to play it. That way if they want to succeed they are concentrating on improving the gameplay experience rather than producing a gimped version they can monetize.

Are you being *forced* to purchase those bags?  Or can you simply find another game that is more to your taste?

Originally posted by Dihoru

Originally posted by Robokapp

Originally posted by darkhalf357x

  I doubt any of us here ACTUALLY believe F2P means absolutely FREE.

yet about 90% of players MAKE IT so for them it's that way.

 

what they believe doesn't really matter. it's only what they do.

 

It can mean absoluely free for me if I want it to be. You (metaphorically, I'm talking about developers) can't stop me.

 

and on such a shaky business model...things can go unstable quickly. And now I'm really not investing in something that's so unstable.

 

see the issue ?

League of Legends, World of Tanks, DDO, Age of Conan, stop me when your argument sinks completely. Good F2P games will never be shakey because people will love them and want to support them, that's why most of the crap F2Ps slowly die off while the decent to good ones live on (christ World of Tanks isn't even a MMO in the real sense of the word and its shakey as a game can get but it shot through the roof and turned Wargamming into an international player in the games world).

I agree.

problem is...are we talking "f2p" or "ideal f2p". because quoting 4 f2p's with a good model doesnt cover up the other 1,000.

ideal f2p is an entirely different topic. and it comes down to "if it's so good I'd play it under f2p, b2p or p2p...because it's that good". I have no problem with a great and cheap f2p. the average f2p is not that way, though.

Originally posted by darkhalf357x

 

If enjoyment is subjective how do we quantify?  Is limited bag space really a big/major issue to playing a game?

Why do we care what other gamers do/buy?

it's ideologic.

why do we care what poachers in asia do to their elephants ?

and ... why does it matter why do we care ?

Originally posted by Robokapp

Originally posted by darkhalf357x

 

If enjoyment is subjective how do we quantify?  Is limited bag space really a big/major issue to playing a game?

Why do we care what other gamers do/buy?

it's ideologic.

 

why do we care what poachers in asia do to their elephants ?

 

and ... why does it matter why do we care ?

Well Im more pragmatic.  My question was rhetorical.

And if I dont care its not an issue nor cause to impact F2P.   Hence it comes down to choice/opinion (as opposed to it being a bad model or bad for the genre).