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General Discussion Forum » The Pub at MMORPG.COM » MMORPG, lessons learned!

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33 posts found
  Cod_Eye

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/04/09
Posts: 1026

2/10/13 6:01:44 PM#21
Originally posted by xpowderx

I always see this question here at MMORPG.com. The question "WHATS WRONG WITH MMORPG's?". For the past few days I have been trying to find that answer. I believe I have found part of that ever eluding question.

First lets talk about us. A MMORPG player. For many of us a new mmorpg is like seeking the HOLY GRAIL. But then when we get it, we still have that UMPH! missing. Most of us who play MMORPGs have unlimited choices of what to play. Most of us now are instant gratification players. Whether it be due to time constraints, selfishness, or just  a part of everyday life. As most things in our life follow the same instant gratification premise. Why many companies follow the Game Shop design.

That is one layer to a problem that effects everyone who designs or plays a mmorpg. What this does is give a gamer like me or you less incentive to actually play the mmorpg. Since I can get that uber just by spending a few dollars at a game shop store.

What has the game shop actually done to that particular mmorpg? It takes out immersion. Players never actually have to immerse themselves into a game fully. In part that attitude from us and those that develop the game hurt that mmorpg.

 

 

Here is another layer to that often asked question these days.

Now the past couple of days I have been playing a single player RPG. Many of you have heard of it, if not played it, Skyrim!

When playing SKYRIM I noticed that this game world was fully encompassing me. Made me part of that world. When I did something I had that fear, risk and feeling of reward when I finished a questline. This made me ask, where is this feelng in my MMORPGs that I play? I do not have that sense of accomplishment as I did with a single player rpg.

Most mmorpgs do the following. Kill (X) creatures and collect reward. Or go to (X) location/locations collect reward, or collect(X) items return and collect reward. Often times these type of quests offer a menial upgrade item but often it is just a cash reward. This is a format that we as mmorpg players have been following for the past 10 years.

Often when we get these quests we just roll over to where the quest objectives are and do it.  Now back to a Skyrim moment. I get those types of quests in Skyrim. But the difference lies in the world itself. Often enough on my way to my quest objective I get surprised. Whether it be troll popping out on the trail right in front of me or that objective while sounding simple is at the bottom of a catcomb filled with nasty undead. Who want nothing more than for me to become part of  the undead community.

This is something lacking in many mmos. No surprises, no its hell to get there and risk your characters life doing it! Instead we get follow the trail to x landmark , make a left and look there in that open field. Lots of my objectives all over the place!

What fun is that really? In part I blame developers for making mmorpg much simpler than some of the older titles. In part I blame us the player who through the years have wanted things simpler. Developers want that expanded player base. But it is at a cost. That feeling of acomplishment, fear and immersion is shot.

 

 

Now another layer. It is my belief that we as players are indeed solo players. Grouping is a past time in those older mmorpgs. In part I blame guilds in part I blame us. You see most people prefer to just group when they need to. Most players want that kick butt item for theselves. As to guilds, guilds are set up with the premise to progress through end game content. Every player that is in the guild seeks one thing, power :-D. Whether it be through gear, skills whichever. We all have the desire to have the best character possible! What guilds are all about.

That said, doing such incorporates game problems. As those who are not in one are left feeling empty or substandard. Thus, they usually do not stick around and leave for other pastures.

Why , some of the best games out right now do not really incorporate guilds into the game. In fact the game of the year at mmorpg doesnt have guilds. Players can still have a guild, but its outside the boundary of the game itself. The game doesnt have to make any changes to keep guilds happy.

Players in certain games can still group. But no longer have other players turning them down. Due to the player  looking weak  or is the wrong class. This concept of shared grouping in my opinion should be more prevailent in mmorpgs. It is needed.

To sum this up. This is my list of reasons why mmos are missing the

1. Too much instant gratification.

2. A lack of Immersion!

3.No feeling of accomplish for finishing a  quest or set of quests.

4. No random surprises.

5. No fear factor or risk.

6. System failure as per grouping.

7. Lack of  content.

8.Cash shops

Probably more. But have alot to do today. Can continue later. So what ya think :-D

 

Highlighted the ones that are an issue for me, maybe I'm to old school, I prefer to work for my character development, the days of trying to sneak past mobs to get from point A to B, the need to talk to every npc to see if they have a quest, the need to find things out for myself without being guided.  taking months to get to level cap, not just because the xp gain was low but because I was distracted by doing other events and missions instead of xp grinding, bottle necks that hindered your progression or slowed your xp grind down, FFXI as an example had matt fight to let you pass a level cap, CoP to access new areas.  Death penalty, made people pay attention.

 

I could go on, but I think you get the gist.

  waynejr2

Elite Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3853

RIP City of Heroes!

2/10/13 6:43:44 PM#22
Originally posted by xpowderx

I always see this question here at MMORPG.com. The question "WHATS WRONG WITH MMORPG's?". For the past few days I have been trying to find that answer. I believe I have found part of that ever eluding question.

First lets talk about us. A MMORPG player. For many of us a new mmorpg is like seeking the HOLY GRAIL. But then when we get it, we still have that UMPH! missing. Most of us who play MMORPGs have unlimited choices of what to play. Most of us now are instant gratification players. Whether it be due to time constraints, selfishness, or just  a part of everyday life. As most things in our life follow the same instant gratification premise. Why many companies follow the Game Shop design.

That is one layer to a problem that effects everyone who designs or plays a mmorpg. What this does is give a gamer like me or you less incentive to actually play the mmorpg. Since I can get that uber just by spending a few dollars at a game shop store.

What has the game shop actually done to that particular mmorpg? It takes out immersion. Players never actually have to immerse themselves into a game fully. In part that attitude from us and those that develop the game hurt that mmorpg.

 

 

Here is another layer to that often asked question these days.

Now the past couple of days I have been playing a single player RPG. Many of you have heard of it, if not played it, Skyrim!

When playing SKYRIM I noticed that this game world was fully encompassing me. Made me part of that world. When I did something I had that fear, risk and feeling of reward when I finished a questline. This made me ask, where is this feelng in my MMORPGs that I play? I do not have that sense of accomplishment as I did with a single player rpg.

Most mmorpgs do the following. Kill (X) creatures and collect reward. Or go to (X) location/locations collect reward, or collect(X) items return and collect reward. Often times these type of quests offer a menial upgrade item but often it is just a cash reward. This is a format that we as mmorpg players have been following for the past 10 years.

Often when we get these quests we just roll over to where the quest objectives are and do it.  Now back to a Skyrim moment. I get those types of quests in Skyrim. But the difference lies in the world itself. Often enough on my way to my quest objective I get surprised. Whether it be troll popping out on the trail right in front of me or that objective while sounding simple is at the bottom of a catcomb filled with nasty undead. Who want nothing more than for me to become part of  the undead community.

This is something lacking in many mmos. No surprises, no its hell to get there and risk your characters life doing it! Instead we get follow the trail to x landmark , make a left and look there in that open field. Lots of my objectives all over the place!

What fun is that really? In part I blame developers for making mmorpg much simpler than some of the older titles. In part I blame us the player who through the years have wanted things simpler. Developers want that expanded player base. But it is at a cost. That feeling of acomplishment, fear and immersion is shot.

 

 

Now another layer. It is my belief that we as players are indeed solo players. Grouping is a past time in those older mmorpgs. In part I blame guilds in part I blame us. You see most people prefer to just group when they need to. Most players want that kick butt item for theselves. As to guilds, guilds are set up with the premise to progress through end game content. Every player that is in the guild seeks one thing, power :-D. Whether it be through gear, skills whichever. We all have the desire to have the best character possible! What guilds are all about.

That said, doing such incorporates game problems. As those who are not in one are left feeling empty or substandard. Thus, they usually do not stick around and leave for other pastures.

Why , some of the best games out right now do not really incorporate guilds into the game. In fact the game of the year at mmorpg doesnt have guilds. Players can still have a guild, but its outside the boundary of the game itself. The game doesnt have to make any changes to keep guilds happy.

Players in certain games can still group. But no longer have other players turning them down. Due to the player  looking weak  or is the wrong class. This concept of shared grouping in my opinion should be more prevailent in mmorpgs. It is needed.

To sum this up. This is my list of reasons why mmos are missing the

1. Too much instant gratification.

2. A lack of Immersion!

3.No feeling of accomplish for finishing a  quest or set of quests.

4. No random surprises.

5. No fear factor or risk.

6. System failure as per grouping.

7. Lack of  content.

8.Cash shops

Probably more. But have alot to do today. Can continue later. So what ya think :-D

 

 MMORPGs are not the holy grail for me.  If such a thing existed, it would be pen and paper RPGs with a large group of friends and a great DM.  Nothing comes close.

  Loktofeit

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12405

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

2/10/13 6:56:39 PM#23
Originally posted by xpowderx
Originally posted by Toferio
Originally posted by Sijjistoryus

#10. Founders Packs, Pre-Order rewards, Convention Exclusives, Cross-Promotion Rewards etc...   Earning items outside of the game is just lame. If you want a cool and unique in-game, then go and earn it in the game.

Without such founders packs indie developers would less likely be able to fund anything but another WoW clone.

Then Toferio, Founders Packs would be in part a issue as to why MMORPGs are lacking. Founders packs are relatively new thing in mmorpgs. Before them many Indie companies still were able to make its mmorpg. As a view to this. All one has to do is look at mmorpgs game list. Founders Pack is more of a money grab than a actual pre-development/release  fund.

Founders packs or founders perks have been in MMOs for over a decade. Here's the founder logo on an Earth and Beyond (2002)  spaceship:

 

They just changed the name of "pre-order" because

1) there's a limit to how early people will buy into a pre-order

2) it allows for a wider range of (higher) prices that can be charged whereas 'pre-order' comes with the expectation of the standard box price.

It started as pre-orders, then went to collector's editions and now on to founder's packs. Each evolution allowing for more pricing tiers and earlier revenue generation. All-in-all, they are all the same thing.

 

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  User Deleted
2/10/13 6:58:36 PM#24

Nice thread OP good observation.

  supertouchme

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/10/08
Posts: 69

2/10/13 7:05:46 PM#25

the real allure of the genre is completely lost on developers (and quite a few players as well) so they insist on creating sterile worlds governed by safe, controlled mechanisms.

one has to wonder who the target audiences for these games are. i have a really hard time believing the mmo community is largely comprised of non-gamers, like those moms who visit chat rooms between feeding and burping their children.

  Uldah

Novice Member

Joined: 9/07/10
Posts: 165

2/10/13 7:48:33 PM#26

While i might not agree with all points, it is a good read.

My personal opinion as to why this genre is not the same anymore is basicly the market and developers have evolved, whatever we like it or not.

When i started playing mmos back in 2002, it was somethin new somewhat,there were no such a thins as facebook and the mmos guilds were more than just joining together to get this and that.Actual conection was made between the players as they all were experiencing something new together.

Goals were hard and im not talking leet end gear hard, im talking every small step to get there was exciting,geting somethin back then in this games were hard, and im not talking get 18 people hard, im talking you just didnt had a clue how to get it done.There was barely any wikkies or anything or at the least were starting to get there.

MMOrpg on that time were about people playing together.Discovering thins together andgrowing up as a team.Hell it wasnt until 3 years after or so that i started forums, we didnt even used voice chat back then.

Now is not like that, as much as i have tried, even asking the new people to the genre , is not thes ame basics.Becouse what its more basic that to play together on a online game.

Now everyone knows how to and if not you just gotta search da internetz to find out.Is not even a matter anymore.

After so many years of playing mmos i realiced the problem is not the games, is the genre and the way outside factors have affected it.It is hard for me to explain exactly what it is but i belive , while we might get good games in the future , the MMOs as they were back then, will never come back.

  User Deleted
2/10/13 8:03:07 PM#27
Originally posted by xpowderx

 

To sum this up. This is my list of reasons why mmos are missing the And on the other hand we see why the games that have been too strict always fail:

1. Too much instant gratification.

No loot, especially after launch, people are wondering around not getting rewarded at all none of the chests drop anything worth the time to get to them or find them and the economy fails, this explains GW2 post Nov 15 2012.

2. A lack of Immersion!

So much immersion it take forever to get anywhere especially if you are a new player and the requirements for travel and both expensive and lengthy, people get tired of walking to their destinations all the time. AoC was bad about this in the beginning.

3.No feeling of accomplish for finishing a  quest or set of quests.

Questing being so difficult that you have to bring a 5-10 man party for everyhting, seen this in a couple of games, it's boring to have to use 4 more people or queue all the time just to do anything meaningful in a title, there's plenty of things someone do solo if only they'd program it. Did you think that everyone did everything with someone else in midieval times? NO they didn't.

4. No random surprises.

The game becomes nothing but random encounters, every two steps stops you and takes you to "the encounter screen" where you  spend long hours trying to defend yourself against a party of wolves with nothing but a stick and a rusty knife almost dying in the process twice.

5. No fear factor or risk.

The permadeath thing has been beaten to a pulp, no it's never coming back get over it already. Seriously there's more important things to worry about like developers lying to the public about their game design.

6. System failure as per grouping.

not sure what you're talking about here so I'll just reitterate that requiring grouping to go count the number of bandits holding the princess hostage is not a very exciting method of questing.

7. Lack of  content.

What you call lack of content I might call plenty, gonna have to come up with a better thing then that to argue with.

8.Cash shops

Again not a valid argument. Cash shops are fine so long as they don't interfere with normal gameplay. Let's look at what happened to GW2. Post launch they decided to force people to go to the cash shop for gold to do everything in the game, so they nerfed loot in the open world so that people could no longer earn valuables even while not grouping in the open world (open world events were supposed to be their focus) so in this case since there's only 1 type of valuable currency that one has to use for everything the shop is the only viable place to get the gold. That and having a shop be the place where you get the best gear are the only times cash shops stand in the way of gameplay. Otherwise your argument that ALL cash shops are bad is invalid.

Probably more. But have alot to do today. Can continue later. So what ya think :-D

 

So what I'm seeing here is there's alot of bad ideas trying to come back just because someone wants to have some strut time on a game where he can flash his epeen. 

We don't need MORE elitism we need less.

  xpowderx

Elite Member

Joined: 10/09/05
Posts: 4311

Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts. Richard Feynman, Nobel-prize-winning physicist

 
OP  2/10/13 9:02:59 PM#28
Originally posted by itgrowls
Originally posted by xpowderx

 

To sum this up. This is my list of reasons why mmos are missing the And on the other hand we see why the games that have been too strict always fail: Care to give examples?

1. Too much instant gratification.

No loot, especially after launch, people are wondering around not getting rewarded at all none of the chests drop anything worth the time to get to them or find them and the economy fails, this explains GW2 post Nov 15 2012. I for one never said no loot. Reading this reminds me of why I came to the initial assertion of "Instant Gratification.

2. A lack of Immersion!

So much immersion it take forever to get anywhere especially if you are a new player and the requirements for travel and both expensive and lengthy, people get tired of walking to their destinations all the time. AoC was bad about this in the beginning. Again, you are adding things that I never said. Who said the requirements include expensive and lengthy? I do see a pattern here :-D

3.No feeling of accomplish for finishing a  quest or set of quests.

Questing being so difficult that you have to bring a 5-10 man party for everyhting, seen this in a couple of games, it's boring to have to use 4 more people or queue all the time just to do anything meaningful in a title, there's plenty of things someone do solo if only they'd program it. Did you think that everyone did everything with someone else in midieval times? NO they didn't. What does the feeling of accomplishment have to do with having to group?  In my original post it is"individual" accomplishment as you are the player character. Again, throwing in assertions that have no actual meaning to the original post.

4. No random surprises.

The game becomes nothing but random encounters, every two steps stops you and takes you to "the encounter screen" where you  spend long hours trying to defend yourself against a party of wolves with nothing but a stick and a rusty knife almost dying in the process twice. And again another assertion, who said it would be nothing but random encounters and that you would only be equipped with a stick or rusty knife?

5. No fear factor or risk.

The permadeath thing has been beaten to a pulp, no it's never coming back get over it already. Seriously there's more important things to worry about like developers lying to the public about their game design. This one really gets me. No where in my post did I mention anything about permadeath nor support for such. Again another assertion that has no basis.

6. System failure as per grouping.

not sure what you're talking about here so I'll just reitterate that requiring grouping to go count the number of bandits holding the princess hostage is not a very exciting method of questing. I never said anything like required grouping. In fact I somewhat discourage it. As it is not within our nature to do so.

7. Lack of  content.

What you call lack of content I might call plenty, gonna have to come up with a better thing then that to argue with. Who stated anything I said was a argument? Each there own as far as content goes. We all have differing views of what is too much or too less.

8.Cash shops

Again not a valid argument. Cash shops are fine so long as they don't interfere with normal gameplay. Let's look at what happened to GW2. Post launch they decided to force people to go to the cash shop for gold to do everything in the game, so they nerfed loot in the open world so that people could no longer earn valuables even while not grouping in the open world (open world events were supposed to be their focus) so in this case since there's only 1 type of valuable currency that one has to use for everything the shop is the only viable place to get the gold. That and having a shop be the place where you get the best gear are the only times cash shops stand in the way of gameplay. Otherwise your argument that ALL cash shops are bad is invalid. For a non valid argument you sure gave us a valid reason to oppose cash shops(Highlighted in yellow)

Probably more. But have alot to do today. Can continue later. So what ya think :-D

 

So what I'm seeing here is there's alot of bad ideas trying to come back just because someone wants to have some strut time on a game where he can flash his epeen. 

We don't need MORE elitism we need less. Elitism :-D. Definitely not elitist. Dont know too many of those who play Pirate101 or Wizard101. In fact I am most likely the opposite. I do have much experience with the mmorpg genre. Just as many others here as well.

You made many assertions in this post. None of which were even hinted at in my OP.  I recommend perhaps slowing down and reading what my post actually says rather than what"you" want it to say.

Note: If you wish to make my original post a argument feel free. I am quite capable of debating. "Argument" is one of the first things you learn about in Political Science :-D But at least if you are going to make a argument that pertains to the original post. Please keep the strawmen out!

MUST WATCH: http://vimeo.com/105072944

  Banaghran

Novice Member

Joined: 1/17/12
Posts: 872

2/10/13 9:03:27 PM#29
Originally posted by itgrowls

So what I'm seeing here is there's alot of bad ideas trying to come back just because someone wants to have some strut time on a game where he can flash his epeen. 

We don't need MORE elitism we need less.

They are bad only because you turned them 180 or exaggerated the intent.

And thats all...

Flame on!

:)

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20541

2/10/13 9:36:47 PM#30
Originally posted by Banaghran
Originally posted by itgrowls

So what I'm seeing here is there's alot of bad ideas trying to come back just because someone wants to have some strut time on a game where he can flash his epeen. 

We don't need MORE elitism we need less.

They are bad only because you turned them 180 or exaggerated the intent.

And thats all...

Flame on!

:)

And they are only not bad because you say so?

How about this? The market has tried them, and discard them. Supply and demand.

  xpowderx

Elite Member

Joined: 10/09/05
Posts: 4311

Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts. Richard Feynman, Nobel-prize-winning physicist

 
OP  2/10/13 9:43:07 PM#31
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Banaghran
Originally posted by itgrowls

So what I'm seeing here is there's alot of bad ideas trying to come back just because someone wants to have some strut time on a game where he can flash his epeen. 

We don't need MORE elitism we need less.

They are bad only because you turned them 180 or exaggerated the intent.

And thats all...

Flame on!

:)

And they are only not bad because you say so?

How about this? The market has tried them, and discard them. Supply and demand.

The only issue I see with this argument is what bad ideas? As itgrowls did not really show any other than assertions that had nothing to do with the original post.

MUST WATCH: http://vimeo.com/105072944

  Toferio

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/26/09
Posts: 1461

2/11/13 3:45:37 AM#32
Originally posted by itgrowls
Originally posted by xpowderx

5. No fear factor or risk.

The permadeath thing has been beaten to a pulp, no it's never coming back get over it already.

EvE features permadeath in extreme cases, so does Wizardry Online. Just saying that it may be rare but not extinct.

  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5396

2/11/13 4:30:35 AM#33

Nice summation by the OP of why we are in the cack we find ourselves today.

I would add to the list no sense of adventure from wide open spaces or role-playing tools to help with the rpg in MMORPG.

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