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General Discussion Forum » The Pub at MMORPG.COM » MMORPG, lessons learned!

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33 posts found
  xpowderx

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/09/05
Posts: 4219

Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts.
Richard Feynman, Nobel-prize-winning physicist

 
OP  2/10/13 11:33:26 AM#1

I always see this question here at MMORPG.com. The question "WHATS WRONG WITH MMORPG's?". For the past few days I have been trying to find that answer. I believe I have found part of that ever eluding question.

First lets talk about us. A MMORPG player. For many of us a new mmorpg is like seeking the HOLY GRAIL. But then when we get it, we still have that UMPH! missing. Most of us who play MMORPGs have unlimited choices of what to play. Most of us now are instant gratification players. Whether it be due to time constraints, selfishness, or just  a part of everyday life. As most things in our life follow the same instant gratification premise. Why many companies follow the Game Shop design.

That is one layer to a problem that effects everyone who designs or plays a mmorpg. What this does is give a gamer like me or you less incentive to actually play the mmorpg. Since I can get that uber just by spending a few dollars at a game shop store.

What has the game shop actually done to that particular mmorpg? It takes out immersion. Players never actually have to immerse themselves into a game fully. In part that attitude from us and those that develop the game hurt that mmorpg.

 

 

Here is another layer to that often asked question these days.

Now the past couple of days I have been playing a single player RPG. Many of you have heard of it, if not played it, Skyrim!

When playing SKYRIM I noticed that this game world was fully encompassing me. Made me part of that world. When I did something I had that fear, risk and feeling of reward when I finished a questline. This made me ask, where is this feelng in my MMORPGs that I play? I do not have that sense of accomplishment as I did with a single player rpg.

Most mmorpgs do the following. Kill (X) creatures and collect reward. Or go to (X) location/locations collect reward, or collect(X) items return and collect reward. Often times these type of quests offer a menial upgrade item but often it is just a cash reward. This is a format that we as mmorpg players have been following for the past 10 years.

Often when we get these quests we just roll over to where the quest objectives are and do it.  Now back to a Skyrim moment. I get those types of quests in Skyrim. But the difference lies in the world itself. Often enough on my way to my quest objective I get surprised. Whether it be troll popping out on the trail right in front of me or that objective while sounding simple is at the bottom of a catcomb filled with nasty undead. Who want nothing more than for me to become part of  the undead community.

This is something lacking in many mmos. No surprises, no its hell to get there and risk your characters life doing it! Instead we get follow the trail to x landmark , make a left and look there in that open field. Lots of my objectives all over the place!

What fun is that really? In part I blame developers for making mmorpg much simpler than some of the older titles. In part I blame us the player who through the years have wanted things simpler. Developers want that expanded player base. But it is at a cost. That feeling of acomplishment, fear and immersion is shot.

 

 

Now another layer. It is my belief that we as players are indeed solo players. Grouping is a past time in those older mmorpgs. In part I blame guilds in part I blame us. You see most people prefer to just group when they need to. Most players want that kick butt item for themselves. As to guilds, guilds are set up with the premise to progress through end game content. Every player that is in the guild seeks one thing, power :-D. Whether it be through gear, skills whichever. We all have the desire to have the best character possible! What guilds are all about.

That said, doing such incorporates game problems. As those who are not in one are left feeling empty or substandard. Thus, they usually do not stick around and leave for other pastures.

Why , some of the best games out right now do not really incorporate guilds into the game. In fact the game of the year at mmorpg doesnt have guilds. Players can still have a guild, but its outside the boundary of the game itself. The game doesnt have to make any changes to keep guilds happy.

Players in certain games can still group. But no longer have other players turning them down. Due to the player  looking weak  or is the wrong class. This concept of shared grouping in my opinion should be more prevailent in mmorpgs. It is needed.

To sum this up. This is my list of reasons why mmos are missing the

1. Too much instant gratification.

2. A lack of Immersion!

3.No feeling of accomplish for finishing a  quest or set of quests.

4. No random surprises.

5. No fear factor or risk.

6. System failure as per grouping.

7. Lack of  content.

8.Cash shops

Probably more. But have alot to do today. Can continue later. So what ya think :-D

 

Success is your proof;
courage is your armour;
go on, go on, in my strength;
& ye shall turn not back for any!
— Liber AL III:46

  Toferio

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/26/09
Posts: 1456

2/10/13 12:17:06 PM#2
Originally posted by xpowderx

 For many of us a new mmorpg is like seeking the HOLY GRAIL. But then when we get it, we still have that UMPH! missing.

That "umph" feeling you are talking about is most likely feeling of novelty, that you felt when you played your first themepark (wow/eq/whatever). You won't get that feeling again until something completely new comes along, imo, and I don't mean "WoW + no holy trio" new. 

  Dauzqul

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/10/12
Posts: 1244

2/10/13 12:20:15 PM#3

I support this post.

 

I'll add to it, too.

 

#9. Boring and redundant PvP: Warzones, Battlegrounds, Arenas - the same 5 maps over and over and over and over and over again. There is nothing "Massive" about instanced PvP. If these types of cheap add-ons were purely for PvE servers, it wouldn't bother me. However, their axiom of gear-incentive bullcrap taints the PvP servers.

#10. Founders Packs, Pre-Order rewards, Convention Exclusives, Cross-Promotion Rewards etc...   Earning items outside of the game is just lame. If you want a cool and unique in-game, then go and earn it in the game.

  Toferio

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/26/09
Posts: 1456

2/10/13 12:24:19 PM#4
Originally posted by Sijjistoryus

#10. Founders Packs, Pre-Order rewards, Convention Exclusives, Cross-Promotion Rewards etc...   Earning items outside of the game is just lame. If you want a cool and unique in-game, then go and earn it in the game.

Without such founders packs indie developers would less likely be able to fund anything but another WoW clone.

  xpowderx

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/09/05
Posts: 4219

Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts.
Richard Feynman, Nobel-prize-winning physicist

 
OP  2/10/13 12:26:59 PM#5
Originally posted by Toferio
Originally posted by Sijjistoryus

#10. Founders Packs, Pre-Order rewards, Convention Exclusives, Cross-Promotion Rewards etc...   Earning items outside of the game is just lame. If you want a cool and unique in-game, then go and earn it in the game.

Without such founders packs indie developers would less likely be able to fund anything but another WoW clone.

Then Toferio, Founders Packs would be in part a issue as to why MMORPGs are lacking. Founders packs are relatively new thing in mmorpgs. Before them many Indie companies still were able to make its mmorpg. As a view to this. All one has to do is look at mmorpgs game list. Founders Pack is more of a money grab than a actual pre-development/release  fund.

Success is your proof;
courage is your armour;
go on, go on, in my strength;
& ye shall turn not back for any!
— Liber AL III:46

  Rayshe

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/30/11
Posts: 1295

2/10/13 12:30:36 PM#6
Territorial PVP has been something ive missed. and honestly i have no problem with cash shops so long as they dont make anyone better that i can possibly attain in game. Example TSW gives cloths and the ability to buy starter gear that you will replace in a hour of playing.

Because i can.
I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
Logic every gamers worst enemy.

  Toferio

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/26/09
Posts: 1456

2/10/13 12:34:09 PM#7
Originally posted by xpowderx
Originally posted by Toferio
Originally posted by Sijjistoryus

#10. Founders Packs, Pre-Order rewards, Convention Exclusives, Cross-Promotion Rewards etc...   Earning items outside of the game is just lame. If you want a cool and unique in-game, then go and earn it in the game.

Without such founders packs indie developers would less likely be able to fund anything but another WoW clone.

Then Toferio, Founders Packs would be in part a issue as to why MMORPGs are lacking. Founders packs are relatively new thing in mmorpgs. Before them many Indie companies still were able to make its mmorpg. As a view to this. All one has to do is look at mmorpgs game list. Founders Pack is more of a money grab than a actual pre-development  fund.

I am curious, what older indie MMOs did you have in mind, those that existed before such concept as Founders Packs starter to be seen around? Not to forget that the content expectations in a MMORPG only went up with recent times (voiceovers, animations, better graphics, etc), making it harder for indies to compete.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

2/10/13 12:35:39 PM#8
Originally posted by xpowderx

I have been trying to find that answer. I believe I have found part

Well, we do thank you for not claiming the answers to the universe.

But your answers are pretty standard fare. Not to offend, but pretty much the same anwers we always get.

More Opinions on the Big Questions aren't what everyone is waiting for. We've got plenty of those, every variety imaginable, we spend every weekend analyzing the hell of these things, every day of every week.

All we need Santa? A game or two that shows some signs of promise.

And entropy to run backwards for a few years, if it's not too much trouble.

(And redheads...you know how to dress 'em big guy. kthx)

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  xpowderx

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/09/05
Posts: 4219

Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts.
Richard Feynman, Nobel-prize-winning physicist

 
OP  2/10/13 12:45:20 PM#9
Originally posted by Toferio
Originally posted by xpowderx
Originally posted by Toferio
Originally posted by Sijjistoryus

#10. Founders Packs, Pre-Order rewards, Convention Exclusives, Cross-Promotion Rewards etc...   Earning items outside of the game is just lame. If you want a cool and unique in-game, then go and earn it in the game.

Without such founders packs indie developers would less likely be able to fund anything but another WoW clone.

Then Toferio, Founders Packs would be in part a issue as to why MMORPGs are lacking. Founders packs are relatively new thing in mmorpgs. Before them many Indie companies still were able to make its mmorpg. As a view to this. All one has to do is look at mmorpgs game list. Founders Pack is more of a money grab than a actual pre-development  fund.

I am curious, what older indie MMOs did you have in mind, those that existed before such concept as Founders Packs starter to be seen around? Not to forget that the content expectations in a MMORPG only went up with recent times (voiceovers, animations, better graphics, etc), making it harder for indies to compete.

Imagine founders packs for Runescape, Rose Online, ect. Back when they were just indie companies. Even EVE online back when it first started. CCP was a nobody back then. A Indie company. Dont believe me, ask all the players who played back then. All anyone knew at one point was the company is out of Iceland. Many of the mmorpgs we see now days were from companies that started as a Indie. In the early 90ies even Blizzard was a start up :-D. While now we see some of those companies as giants in the industry. Back then they were the same as any start up indie company around.

Like I stated in my OP. Instant gratification is a big issue. Along with choices! I personally would rather have just a few Indie companies that bring out quality product. Than have substandard struggling Indie companies that have to make "founders packs" to get people to play its game.

Success is your proof;
courage is your armour;
go on, go on, in my strength;
& ye shall turn not back for any!
— Liber AL III:46

  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

2/10/13 12:52:24 PM#10

I have complaints.  I have wishes the industry isn't fulfilling.  I get culture shock from the world-view of some of my fellow posters.  But my mood isn't going to change if my every wish came true and if everyone thought more similarly to the way I do - my expectations will simply change, my tolerences will narrow.

So, when when I read a lot of the angry posts on this site, I see people itching and trashing around for a rationalization, untempered by the realization that their state of mind is elemental to themselves, not something caused to them by the rest of the world.

(sorry, this is a bit of a tangent from the OP - I don't really disagree with what you say, it's just that you got me thinking about the general angst-ridden mood of the boards and wish lists in general)
  rensta

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/19/08
Posts: 243

"Girlfriends come and go but epic items are soulbound"

2/10/13 12:54:28 PM#11

You have my support as well!

They should make creating a guild much harder,but with the option of accepting more players,this way we can have great pvp battles on a big scale :) and a bigger sense of immersion and recognition inside a group.


Basically clicking away text windows ruins every MMO, try to have fun instead of rushing things. Without story and lore all there is left is a bunch of mechanics.
Reply
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  Toferio

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/26/09
Posts: 1456

2/10/13 12:58:32 PM#12
Originally posted by xpowderx
 

Imagine founders packs for Runescape, Rose Online, ect. Back when they were just indie companies. Even EVE online back when it first started. CCP was a nobody back then. A Indie company. Dont believe me, ask all the players who played back then. All anyone knew at one point was the company is out of Iceland. Many of the mmorpgs we see now days were from companies that started as a Indie. In the early 90ies even Blizzard was a start up :-D. While now we see some of those companies as giants in the industry. Back then they were the same as any start up indie company around.

Like I stated in my OP. Instant gratification is a big issue. Along with choices! I personally would rather have just a few Indie companies that bring out quality product. Than have substandard struggling Indie companies that have to make "founders packs" to get people to play its game.

Runescape - Extremely light on graphic, webbased when it launched. Do you want modern MMOs to start looking like that? Nobody would play it. Not to mention it dates so long back that if you tried to launch a game with same resources as runescape had back then, you probably would not come very far.

Rose Online - Same as above, very few oldschool gamers would give a game looking like that a chance.

EvE - Space. Do I even need to say more? Their graphics only included ships, asteroids and various junk, which is very light on resources. They would probably not afford to develop a game if it took place anywhere else than in space because of higher asset requirement. 

Blizzard already had significant income from previous titles to fund their MMO.

As you can see, the examples you given are hardly good arguments. They are either too old, making it very hard to develop a mmorpg same way they did in modern age, or very circumstantial (EvE), which allowed their devs to spare a lot of expenses. Founders packs rarely give you any significant advantage other than on the few first levels, and the profits go direct to the developers allowing them to invest more into the game. Win-win.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

2/10/13 1:01:08 PM#13
Originally posted by rensta

You have my support as well!

Is Group Therapy the secret hidden purpose of this website?

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  xpowderx

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/09/05
Posts: 4219

Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts.
Richard Feynman, Nobel-prize-winning physicist

 
OP  2/10/13 1:03:37 PM#14
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by rensta

You have my support as well!

Is Group Therapy the secret hidden purpose of this website?


Success is your proof;
courage is your armour;
go on, go on, in my strength;
& ye shall turn not back for any!
— Liber AL III:46

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

2/10/13 1:06:55 PM#15
Originally posted by xpowderx
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by rensta

You have my support as well!

Is Group Therapy the secret hidden purpose of this website?


Well, I had more Cuckoo's Nest in mind, honestly.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  xpowderx

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/09/05
Posts: 4219

Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts.
Richard Feynman, Nobel-prize-winning physicist

 
OP  2/10/13 1:07:45 PM#16
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by xpowderx
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by rensta

You have my support as well!

Is Group Therapy the secret hidden purpose of this website?


Well, I had more Cuckoo's Nest in mind, honestly.

I changed it just for you!

Success is your proof;
courage is your armour;
go on, go on, in my strength;
& ye shall turn not back for any!
— Liber AL III:46

  xpowderx

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/09/05
Posts: 4219

Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts.
Richard Feynman, Nobel-prize-winning physicist

 
OP  2/10/13 1:16:58 PM#17
Originally posted by Toferio
Originally posted by xpowderx
 

Imagine founders packs for Runescape, Rose Online, ect. Back when they were just indie companies. Even EVE online back when it first started. CCP was a nobody back then. A Indie company. Dont believe me, ask all the players who played back then. All anyone knew at one point was the company is out of Iceland. Many of the mmorpgs we see now days were from companies that started as a Indie. In the early 90ies even Blizzard was a start up :-D. While now we see some of those companies as giants in the industry. Back then they were the same as any start up indie company around.

Like I stated in my OP. Instant gratification is a big issue. Along with choices! I personally would rather have just a few Indie companies that bring out quality product. Than have substandard struggling Indie companies that have to make "founders packs" to get people to play its game.

Runescape - Extremely light on graphic, webbased when it launched. Do you want modern MMOs to start looking like that? Nobody would play it. Not to mention it dates so long back that if you tried to launch a game with same resources as runescape had back then, you probably would not come very far.

Rose Online - Same as above, very few oldschool gamers would give a game looking like that a chance.

EvE - Space. Do I even need to say more? Their graphics only included ships, asteroids and various junk, which is very light on resources. They would probably not afford to develop a game if it took place anywhere else than in space because of higher asset requirement. 

Blizzard already had significant income from previous titles to fund their MMO.

As you can see, the examples you given are hardly good arguments. They are either too old, making it very hard to develop a mmorpg same way they did in modern age, or very circumstantial (EvE), which allowed their devs to spare a lot of expenses. Founders packs rarely give you any significant advantage other than on the few first levels, and the profits go direct to the developers allowing them to invest more into the game. Win-win.

Now back to the serious stuff :-D

Modern age? What would be different if they gave the same things in-game during play than having to buy a "Founders Pack"?  As stated in the original post. Both developers and players take away from a mmorpg by allowing such things.

As to EVE, you believe a good game is heavy on resources? I would disagree. I believe a good mmorpg is a game which is fun, addictive and has a great community. This is regardless of graphic resources or the size of content. As that can be expanded on at a later date. A game can look AWESOME, have all kinds of cool graphics but still be a crap game. And offer very little immersion!

As to resources. Star Wars The Old Republic is one of those high resource, high graphics game. But I can promise those players who played Star Wars Galaxies pre-cu would choose that over SWTOR any day of the week. Even with its choppy graphics, outdated content.

Note: Founders Pack is just a way(Like Insurance) to cover costs and or payroll to a game that may fail during its honeymoon period!

Success is your proof;
courage is your armour;
go on, go on, in my strength;
& ye shall turn not back for any!
— Liber AL III:46

  Homitu

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/01/09
Posts: 2030

2/10/13 1:45:34 PM#18
Originally posted by Toferio
Originally posted by xpowderx

 For many of us a new mmorpg is like seeking the HOLY GRAIL. But then when we get it, we still have that UMPH! missing.

That "umph" feeling you are talking about is most likely feeling of novelty, that you felt when you played your first themepark (wow/eq/whatever). You won't get that feeling again until something completely new comes along, imo, and I don't mean "WoW + no holy trio" new. 

I'll totally agree with the novelty assessment, and I'll add that I don't think veteran MMO players will ever get the total novelty sensation that comes with one's first MMO experiences again.  For me at least, I attribute a lot of the wonder and awe of my first MMO experience to the simple novelty of (A) existing in a fully realized 3D virtual world (B) with other players.  I can still remember the first time I logged into an MMO and a friend pointed out to me that the characters walking around on my screen were actually other players.  It was mind-blowing then, but something I and many gamers are completely desensitized to now.  Then there was the simple joy of traveling from zone to interconnected zone and just witnessing players and NPCs alike go about their tasks, which just made the world feel alive in a way that no other type of game ever had before.  

While such a completely novel experience may never again be possible, I would argue, however, that one can still have micro experiences of novelty in many different new MMOs.  Even as a 10+ year MMO vet, I've still managed to find numerous moments in GW2, my most recent MMO, where I've all but exclaimed outloud, "I can't believe this is an MMO I'm playing right now!  I've never experienced anything like this!"  I mean there was a time when a friend and I were passing torches in a completely blacked out cave so that we could light our way through a trecherous platforming puzzle, only to be attacked and killed by enemy players once we emerged.  Events felt new enough that they felt novel for a long while.  Jumping puzzles and platforming felt completely novel in an MMO world.  And then there's the world.  Exploring a living breathing world, as I mentioned above, has always been the #1 draw to MMOs for me.  Despite my general desensitization to the whole fully-realized virtual world schtick, GW2 just took it to a new level.  Between the fluidity of the events, art style, and the absolutely enormous and detailed cities and zones, GW2's world managed to draw me in in a way I didn't think I would be able to be drawn in again.  

All of that isn't intended to be an advertisement for GW2 (you'll see tons of critical GW2 posts by me).  It's merely meant to be a positive ammendment to the otherwise demoralizing sentiment that MMO fans will never experience that old joy again.  It can be found in features here and there in all kinds of new games.  

  Toferio

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/26/09
Posts: 1456

2/10/13 3:19:02 PM#19

 

Originally posted by xpowderx

Modern age? What would be different if they gave the same things in-game during play than having to buy a "Founders Pack"?  As stated in the original post. Both developers and players take away from a mmorpg by allowing such things.

 

I am not even sure if you are serious at the moment.. What would be different? A significant percentage of funding for indie developers, that's what. Games like Natural Selection 2 only seen the light because fans supported it by buying preorders (including deluxe editions). There is absolutely nothing that gets taken away from the game if someone pays for a cooler looking vanity cloak, except maybe ego of few players who didn't want to spend money on it. I'd like to see what exactly gets "taken away", any suggestions? Those things are often developed especially for such packs, and would not otherwise even exist in game.

 

Originally posted by xpowderx

As to EVE, you believe a good game is heavy on resources? I would disagree. I believe a good mmorpg is a game which is fun, addictive and has a great community. This is regardless of graphic resources or the size of content. As that can be expanded on at a later date. A game can look AWESOME, have all kinds of cool graphics but still be a crap game. And offer very little immersion!

 

I never said that a good game should be heavy on resources. I said that their low resource demand is what allowed them to make the game in the first place because of significantly lower budget than if the game was made in a generic rpg fantasy world. 

 

Originally posted by xpowderx

Note: Founders Pack is just a way(Like Insurance) to cover costs and or payroll to a game that may fail during its honeymoon period!

Well geez, lets flame them for trying to protect their investment and have a plan B.. >_>

 

I simply can't get behind the logic why you guys dislike the founders packs. The stuff you get is cosmetical only or useful for first few levels, and it allows developers to get extra funding for the game. If I am a fan, I want to be able to invest into a product I like and get extra cool stuff, like miniatures, collectibles, and so on. Why should I be denied that chance? It's a win-win situation.

  Rossboss

Novice Member

Joined: 10/26/10
Posts: 241

2/10/13 3:30:52 PM#20

I agree with you on most fronts, however, #8 is where my ideals differ. I believe in supporting games when I can with the means I live within. Flat fees aren't something I can do as I do not have a steady job, I freelance and go to college at the same time.

#4 should be rephrased as "Dynamic Random Events" because you're really looking for something that pops out at you and is challenging but also achievable.

I really think games should make quests take longer to complete in general, just so there is a feeling of accomplishment when the players spend upwards of 10 minutes on a quest instead of trivial 1 minute long quests.

I played WoW up until WotLK, played RoM for 2 years and now Rift.
I am F2P player. I support games when I feel they deserve my money and I want the items enough.
I don't troll, and I don't take kindly to trolls.

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