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General Discussion Forum » The Pub at MMORPG.COM » List time we had a real community was EQ2 and Vanilla WoW !

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88 posts found
  Aeonblades

Novice Member

Joined: 10/12/12
Posts: 2125

2/08/13 9:30:55 AM#41
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Argh on phone delete above please.

With war I thought it was good from around 6 months up to 2 years after all the "bored of wow but want new game like wow" crowd had left and they had made rvr the primary focus not scenarios. Upto when bioware took over and broke it be messing about with the pvp instead of sticking to their strength pve. During that period it was crusty old daoc nerds and warhammer tabletop geeks, probably the oldest average age in a mmo I've come across except maybe eve. I was one of the youngest in our alliance and was in my mid 30s at the time.

Ah I see what you mean. I just felt like it started degenerating earlier because my guild was falling apart around the 6 month mark, as with most our alliance in general.

Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
Have played: You name it
If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6496

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

2/08/13 10:35:41 AM#42

Mentors—An Archaic MUDism re: community

Warning: TL;DR.

First, this is not unique to a single game title-in other MUDs, the same (nominal) function was performed by “guides” or some other title.

Mentors were strictly volunteers; no one was ever paid a dime for taking part. Mentors were staff-overviewed (in our case, a GM running the program and working behind the scenes, monitoring mentor behavior, etc. We could, in extreme cases, send her/him a tell directly. A mentor hollering for help would get staff “eyes” watching, pretty much instantly).

“Special powers”—not many, except Mentor channel, and a special sort of summon/return ability. Access to the “storage closet” (more on that later).

What the hell is it?

Mentors were senior players (not staff) who volunteered their time to “help the newbs, new players, get acclimated to a steep learning curve. They earned a position through an application process, as judged by (I did not know the details at the time) the mentor GM and a couple of “junior” GM assistants.

After being accepted into the program, mentors received access to a handful of verbs (most of which only worked while “on duty” (wearing a mentor title)), a backchannel (heard solely by the MGM and mentors), and access to a specific-use guild hall, of sorts.

Basically, mentors get a report from the game whenever a new player arrives. They can teleport to (Newbsauce) and introduce themselves, the game, and “starter” mechanics. They can deliver (from the ‘closet’) limited starter gear (minor magic items, RP props, clothes, donations). They can group up and go “hunting” with Newbsauce, if he desires to, and help with some combat basics. And they can get Newbsauce started on the demo sequence (really simple basic skills review, with a quest-y disguise).

About one newb in ten spends any serious time with the mentor, most want to "do it myself", That's ok, at least someone welcomed them and said hello. Nearly all of them, help or not, appreciate that an effort was extended. And I would often receive "thank yous" from players I met as L1s literally years ago.

This is…pretty foreign to most mmos, and way foreign to most players.

The cynical view is that you’re unpaid drone working for the company. But remember, this is back when players and the company weren’t automatic enemies yet. The cynical view can suck it

These are players, volunteering their time to stop Acquiring Stuff and help other players.

That’s the concept that’s become foreign to MMOs, doing something without reward, just because it helps somebody else. It requires you to stop earning XP, once in a while.

And a modern mmo concentrates more on the demo sequence, and less on the welcome. They're shooting for super shallow learning curves, so that no player will ever need (or want) outside help, for anything.

But MUDs were just like this, we hadn't become "massive" yet.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  XAPKen

Elite Member

Joined: 3/30/10
Posts: 4717

I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.

2/08/13 10:41:44 AM#43
Originally posted by Icewhite
 

That’s the concept that’s become foreign to MMOs, doing something without reward, just because it helps somebody else. It requires you to stop earning XP, once in a while.

 

 

I saw a bit of this in SMT:Imagine.  Acts of kindness?  It really floored me at the time.

 

Realm Lords 2 - October 1st, 2015 - Retro-Styled Old-School Graphical MUD with Public Dungeons

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6496

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

2/08/13 10:59:09 AM#44
Originally posted by XAPGames
Originally posted by Icewhite
 

That’s the concept that’s become foreign to MMOs, doing something without reward, just because it helps somebody else. It requires you to stop earning XP, once in a while.

 

 I saw a bit of this in SMT:Imagine.  Acts of kindness?  It really floored me at the time.

There's a guild in EVE that exists to help newbies over the humps, too.

It's not unknown to MMOs, just not many games still have learning curves steep enough to make it necessary.

 

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

2/08/13 11:16:10 AM#45
Well eve is a weird beast.
It manages to have one of the best communities AND one of the worst communities at the same time.
  JimmyYO

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/13/11
Posts: 544

2/08/13 11:18:25 AM#46
Funny I always thought community died as soon as WoW was released. The last time I felt a sense of community was back in my early EQ1 days.
  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6496

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

2/08/13 11:39:03 AM#47
Originally posted by JimmyYO
Funny I always thought community died as soon as WoW was released. The last time I felt a sense of community was back in my early EQ1 days.

It likely died the moment you gave up on it (by odd coincidence).

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Rydeson

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3922

2/08/13 11:43:39 AM#48

IMO..

    Communities were expendible for the sake of the masses..  I reflect on the past and think to myself, "wtf just happen?", and the only thing that comes to mind is that the game mechanics that promoted communities were removed from the games, to appease the masses..  Let me explain a few things from where I'm sitting..

  1. Character Management (CM)..  This is different then character progession.. (CM) is the requirements such as weight allowance , and food & drink.. I heard all the complaints how those mechanics were more of a hurdle, then a benefit..  From where I stand , those mechanics were the some of the tools that lead to good group community interaction..  I can't begin to count how many times weight allowance became an issue that needed to be addressed.. Perfect example of this was when I was camping the ICE giants.. I most of the time would become encumbered by all the fine steel weapons and coin.. YES, coin had weight and it mattered, especially when you had 500 cp and 300 sp.. LOL  I would call out to the zone if I could get a "banker" to my location..  90% of the time I would get a young toon in need of easy plat and would make that journey out to my location.. I would often split my loot with him fairly for his time and we both end up happy.. It is momments like this, that relationships start over a simple character management.. Same with food and drink requirements..
  2. Limited Travel..  I really dispise when games started adding in "insta" travel to any part of the world in seconds.. Really?  Sure it became easy to just click here and there to travel, but we sacrificed more game mechanics that bround people together.. Being a druid in EQ allowed me to start many relationships because of what I could do for them.. Initially, and after they got to know me, it became more social, then a need.. My ability to port only opened the door for my community interaction.. Same could be said with Wizzards, Chanters or whatever class.. I do recommend that people be somewhat restricted by travel to what, who and where they adventure.. My main character grew up in the Queynos side.. I ran into the same people over and over, and often grouped with them as well.. If people have the option to zip in and out of areas in a blink of an eye, do we really expect them to grow roots? 
  3. Class Defining Skills.. Every class should have their own defining mark in the world.. Again I will use EQ as my example.. Every class was unigue, there was not this homogenizing of classes into 3 abilities (holy trinity).. As a druid I could buff, heal and dps.. and do some crowd control as well..  I was never a master at any, but a jack of all trades.. Chanters were great at buffs and cc.. EQ wasn't perfect in dealing with some of the class grouping problems, BUT, I learned you don''t throw the baby out with the bath water either..
     These are just 3 important areas that I believe were sacrificed for the sake of easy play.. Who's to blame for it?  Dev or players, or both.. I put most of it on the players..  Our entitlement society wants everything now , now and now.. and this roles right into gaming as well..  I don't want to run across Norrath, I want insta travel.. I don't want to walk to school, someone drive me.. NOT everyone deserves a trophy, however, devs shouldn't of made those rewards OP either..  I wish we could get back to open world adventuring where the community has to PULL together to defeat the common foe..  What we have now is esport of my guild is better then your guild bs, and games are being developted with that in mind..  Where are the days that an open world boss can spawn randomly anywhere and cause death and distruction to anything in it's path.. I can't begin to tell you how many times I was in the wrong place at the wrong time and DIED in EverQuest or Vanilla WoW..  Who all remembers Stitches?  If I was a dev, I would promote the idea that each month a new "Boss" will be created that will randomly spawn anywhere and roam the world killing anything in it's path until the community does something about it :)  
 
Good Luck :)
  nariusseldon

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 22588

2/08/13 11:54:23 AM#49

"real community"?

What is a real community but a bunch of people? Which is everywhere.

  cronius77

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/26/12
Posts: 1404

2/08/13 11:59:43 AM#50

man some of the people here are just insane seriously....I started gaming with EQ and DAOC im 35 and would be considered a middle gamer i guess being i meet a lot of people both younger and older than me in games. That being said EQ2 did not have some magical community I was there at day 1 of release. Experience Debt in groups got people put on ignore and cussed out on a regular basis on antonica bayle RP server. People fought over loot all the time and did a ton of arguing just like any game to date. The same stuff went on with WOW , I remember all the crying when people would die in dungeons over and over again in vanilla wow. This went on in DAOC also , people would fuss and fight when they died in groups , overpulled , or the experience wasnt flowing in at the speed they wanted in camps. People here have some SERIOUS rose tinted googles.

Also seriously do you guys sit around watching fox news all day so you can come up with a cool slang about the entitlement generation? It doesnt exist period....some people want everything handed to them on a silver platter but most ive encountered in games have no issue working hard for it. You guys seriously sound like a bunch of old white men on fox news with this lingo and its by far nothing to be happy over. Ive met more younger gamers that want to pvp hardcore and raid than older gamers who have an excuse for not wanting to commit to anything in games. While internet lingo has changed over time , and I hate the new words , its nothing at all new to this generation of gamers. I remember being on a aol chatroom when i was like 17 years old and people were saying lmfao asl and lol so this slang has been around for a long time , its just had some added slang as well by the newer players......

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 20115

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

2/08/13 12:00:11 PM#51
Originally posted by Aethaeryn

I agree with a lot of what you said.  The thing is though.  If my grandpa had played an MMO he likely would have said the same thing about UO, EQ etc.

The generations and lifestyles are different so the market adjusts.  From my perspective it is only likley to get worse. . but then I don't have as much time to play anymore either.

*sad bugle music*

LOL, I'm old enough to be a grandpa, and I would agree with you, communities just aren't they used to be, regardless what the reasons are for it.

I will say though, once you get integrated into the EVE community and learn to navigate it, there's still some amazing socialization that goes one whether one is a Pirate or  Prince, and if I had more time to play it that would be my long term home.

The MMORPG world has evolved and moved on, all we can do is adapt and find the fun whereever it is.

And hope for the next game to make it all better again.

In my day MMORPG's were sooooo hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow....uphill both ways.
Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Nadia

Tipster

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11863

2/08/13 12:04:59 PM#52

i've had different experiences (for the better)

Ive had fun in with communities in DDO and LOTRO in recent years

 

even GW2 that launched recently,

join a fun guild and thats all you need for a community

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6496

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

2/08/13 12:07:29 PM#53
This is just the perfect topic for anecdotal evidence, isn't it?

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  greenreen

Elite Member

Joined: 11/19/12
Posts: 2051

2/08/13 12:12:44 PM#54

Reading the OP I couldn't help but think of romantic relationships.

I blame free games on making people less monogamous. Instead of communicating with the developer what you want and don't, you dump the game and find another. You don't have to have anything invested. Instead of helping other people by making guides and class breakdowns, you can just say - buy x y z, done and everyone knows it. Some people have become the perpetual dater in the analogy looking for the "one" and settling for 90% isn't sufficient because new freebies come out often enough to ride another coat tail. You can also leave when you hit the point of having to pay, that glass barrier.

 

I suppose it's the 70's in the MMO genre right now, snort and keep moving, disco dance baby - find another partner. Before that it was the 60's free lovin' hippies told us free would be good, would let everyone in and break caste lines, rich and poor no longer exist man - pass it on - here's a flower - I love you brother.

 

Without everyone on the same playing field and experiencing the same trials and tribulations I think community is out the window from the onset of the game. Forums used to be able number crunching contests and putting out legit math to convince the devs that your side was sensiscal. Now it's all about what is in or out of the cash shops. I suppose people would rather talk about money than the game. They didn't have to do that in the old days. It was a non-issue, everyone paid the same.

That's the community I miss. When we could talk about the game instead of whether buying something or not put you ahead of others.

We need a parody of this for an MMO that I used to know http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UVNT4wvIGY

 

 

 

  Banaghran

Novice Member

Joined: 1/17/12
Posts: 872

2/08/13 12:37:48 PM#55

Well, i would be more concerned with the timing and scope, just ~2004 and just 2 games...

Flame on!

:)

  stringboi

Novice Member

Joined: 5/08/05
Posts: 395

2/08/13 12:46:34 PM#56

Not sure theres much a gaming company can do about communities anymore.  I think over the past decade, games and mmo's for that matter have exploded with popularity.....that is going to draw more kids, more asshole adults...more of everything,  thus ruining what "community" was in the past.  

When I first started WoW and EQ2 for example...there was a more close niche of people that were "gamers" and we all were in the same boat....taking our time to enjoy the game, helping each other out...respect for you fellow players, all that good stuff.  Now gaming is a national pass time for everyone of all ages....cant change that!

  User Deleted
2/08/13 12:52:03 PM#57
I'm thoroughly convinced that each individual's memory of what the "community" is like is based on whatever clique they were able to find/get into, and then they generalized the whole community of that game based on that one sample size they encountered/remembered the most.
  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6496

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

2/08/13 12:56:32 PM#58
Originally posted by Yakkin
I'm thoroughly convinced that each individual's memory of what the "community" is like is based on whatever clique they were able to find/get into, and then they generalized the whole community of that game based on that one sample size they encountered/remembered the most.

You forgot overall romanticism towards the past. But yup, essentially correct.

Otoh, those old MUD players? I've actually met a couple hundred of 'em, They were real people, not entirely anonymous accounts. So I'm sure there's a lot of generalizations that fail in some respect.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  User Deleted
2/08/13 1:05:19 PM#59
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Yakkin
I'm thoroughly convinced that each individual's memory of what the "community" is like is based on whatever clique they were able to find/get into, and then they generalized the whole community of that game based on that one sample size they encountered/remembered the most.

You forgot overall romanticism towards the past. But yup, essentially correct.

Otoh, those old MUD players? I've actually met a couple hundred of 'em, They were real people, not entirely anonymous accounts. So I'm sure there's a lot of generalizations that fail in some respect.

Well then again, I am also thoroughly convinced that the people who romanticize things are also the people who were always the winners/the "elite" of their respective games, because I rarely see people gushing over their failures/inability to get anywhere. After all, it's been proven in history/now that the winners of a conflict always warp history to put them/things they like in a better light, while going out of their way to demonize anything they hate.

To be fair though, there probably is some truth to their romanticizations, but it's so heavily covered by layers of the make-up of nostalgia that it's often times hard to discern the truth from the fond memories.

  Ghavrigg

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/10/12
Posts: 783

2/08/13 1:09:16 PM#60
Originally posted by delete5230
Originally posted by Aethaeryn

I agree with a lot of what you said.  The thing is though.  If my grandpa had played an MMO he likely would have said the same thing about UO, EQ etc.

The generations and lifestyles are different so the market adjusts.  From my perspective it is only likley to get worse. . but then I don't have as much time to play anymore either.

*sad bugle music*

Well I really dont think that the generations of people really asked for the new changes, but the developers are pushing this new crap on us.

The developers would never change what worked if enough people continued to enjoy it. They'd just coast a long and let the money pile up.

During vanilla WoW, and possibly EQ2, though I didn't pay any attention to it, people were CONSTANTLY bitching about every inconvenience until things changed into what they were now. The vocal minority would bitch back at those people and call them noobs, call them bad at the game, whatever, but in the end, keeping the most subscribers as possible is the name of the game, so now we're here.

Everyone wants everything to be quick, in and out, and with high rewards. The best way to do this is to make each game 90% solo, and for the other 10% (dungeons/bg), use a matchmaking system to be quickly set up with random strangers who likely want out just as fast or faster, and are just running it to get a reward and not to actually talk to people. Also, if it's anything like WoW, the only time the majority of these people will talk, is to bitch out some player who doesn't know the dungeon as well as they do and screws up a couple times.

For today's impatient, anti-social, lazy population, there's really no way to make a game be community and group dependent without turning away the majority of subscribers.

Maybe one day we'll see another possibly indy FFXI-esque niche MMO where group dependancy and socializing are the biggest aspects one of these days. But somehow, I doubt it.

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