Originally posted by Kilrane

It's an arbitrary argument regardless.

 The problem is it is not an arbitrary arguement.

Because both time and profit ARE mathematically quantifiable. It is only arbitary if you are talkiing about "which one you like to be the longest profitable running mmo"

The only uncertainty at this time is the time factor BECAUSE all of those games are still ongoing.

However even if we are going to take the snapshot of time vs profit Lineage is still a second, because again there is no way it can match the earning of WoW.

And if we are considering profit in terms of longevity, until UO ends it still lived longer on this Earth at the present time compare to Lineage.

So Lineage is likely second overall, at this point in time.

Originally posted by Rthuth434

UO is not even earning enough to be named on EA reports.  if you count that then there's tons of ancient games that have paid for themselves by now yet are not making any important gain for the company.

if runescape shipped first then that's it, if not it's lineage.

Runescape is 2001 release Lin was 1998 and EQ was 1999.

Originally posted by Irondust

But we are not talking about "potentially profitable", we are talking about really profitable. If we watch it from your position, than plenty of games could be considered "potentially profitable", because they have live servers and not shut down yet. The question is, is these games are making profit to actually release updates and grow in development, or they just half-dead? 

Lineage still making millions of dollars, is UO and everquest making it too? I'm doubt in it

 If you are talking about "really profitable" that's even worse - because as I've mentioned repeatedly Lineage is unlikely to ever beat WoW, even if you give Lineage 5 extra years and Wow dies now (of course UO is not in the equation in this instance).

You are still not comprehending the mathematical part of this dilemma.

Originally posted by XAPGames

Originally posted by Rthuth434
did RS ship before Lineage? it's gotta be one of those two. i don't know if UO meets the requirements. i know EQ is doing well but probably not old enough.

Lineage older than EQ?  I'm surprised.  I always figured LIN as an eastern EQ clone.

I'm curious how you came to that conclusion?  No offense intended, but it doesn't seem like EQ at all to me.

The main feature they seem to share is totally open world (all zones and dungeons are public).  Overland is all one zone.  Dungeons are their own open zone each with some of them having several openings around the world.

It's a 2.5d isometric game with world design more reminiscent of UO and many sprite based games of that era, but it's artwork and music were beautiful.

It wasn't a themepark nor a sandbox.  It was just open, but you couldn't build much.  Guilds could war for castles during designated siege times and control area taxes and access to the castle dungeon.  Even non guild and alliance members would come out to help one side or the other in sieges to ensure a good guild managed the tax rate and dungeon.

The game was gear based, but most gear power was based on enchanting the item rather than it inherently beating lower tier gear.  A +10 common sword was more powerful than some rarer drops of lower enchantment.  Enchanting failure could result in item destruction so there was always a flow of items.

It was pvp-centric, but it wasn't random ganking.  The community policed that.  However, there were always guild (they were called pledges) wars and feuds.

There was an entire class solely devoted to being the guild leader.  Only royals cold make guilds (called pledges).

One North American server, called the Lands of Aden, had a special ruleset.

Anyway, I think Lineage is probably the oldest most successful mmo for sure.  I hope ArcheAge lives up to that legacy.

Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG

 

 If you are talking about "really profitable" that's even worse - because as I've mentioned repeatedly Lineage is unlikely to ever beat WoW, even if you give Lineage 5 extra years and Wow dies now (of course UO is not in the equation in this instance).

You are still not comprehending the mathematical part of this dilemma.

We have different meanings of "really profitable". I mean "really profitable" in a way that game earns more money, than needed to keep servers up, make updates, new content and tech support. You are said than "really profitable" is "most prifitable in world", which is not true. 

And I'm not talking about mathematics, I'm talking about which game can be considered "profitable" or "not-profitable". Lineage can be considered profitable, UO and EQ can't, basing of publishers financial reports.

Originally posted by Irondust

Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG

 

 If you are talking about "really profitable" that's even worse - because as I've mentioned repeatedly Lineage is unlikely to ever beat WoW, even if you give Lineage 5 extra years and Wow dies now (of course UO is not in the equation in this instance).

You are still not comprehending the mathematical part of this dilemma.

We have different meanings of "really profitable". I mean "really profitable" in a way that game earns more money, than needed to keep servers up, make updates, new content and tech support. You are sad than "really profitable" is "most prifitable in world", which is not true. 

And I'm not talking about mathematics, I'm talking about which game can be considered "profitable" or "not-profitable". Lineage can be considered profitable, UO and EQ can't, basing of publishers financial reports.

 If you are not talking about mathematics, than everything about this discussion goes out the window - because BOTH profit and time are very clearly defined and quantifiable numbers, and I have no idea what are you looking for? (maybe an opinion piece?)

Also, profitibility only has one meaning, because it is a numerical meaning. Profitability is a quantifier, NOT an opinion. You minus your earnings with costs, and you come out ahead, there you go, it is a profit. A very simple business concept.

If a game has enough earnings to keep servers up, updates, contents and tech, it is already "profitable". If it can't do any or even miss one of that and have to cut cost, in accounting it is called a "loss". Thus you definition of "really profitable" is entirely skewed because that NOT how accounting works.

If by that definition, I can't see UO and Everquest can be considered a "loss" (or in YOUR definition, not "really profitable" lol) since I'm sure the parent company will not hesitate to chop them off if they are not profitable (especially the fact that you are talking about EA and SOE here, the most corporate of game makers).

So in terms of longest running still profitable (or by your definition, "longest running really profitable" lol) UO is top because it is longest running AND being maintain because it is still making the company money.

I really fail to see how, in any either definition aforementioned, Lineage with come out ahead. Don't get me wrong I think was a good game, but it is just mathematically wrong in so many ways to call it so.

Originally posted by wormywyrm
UO I suppose but I think in the minds of many of us it is EQ1 that started the genre.

Then those would be naive minds

It might not cost "that much" to keep a server up.  If you trim your staff a bit you might keep a server going cheaply.

As for major profit, lineage is the game.  Those asian gamers sure are loyal. 

Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG

 

If a game has enough earnings to keep servers up, updates, contents and tech, it is already "profitable". If it can't do any or even miss one of that and have to cut cost, in accounting it is called a "loss". Thus you definition of "really profitable" is entirely skewed because that NOT how accounting works.

 

If by that definition, I can't see UO and Everquest can be considered a "loss" (or in YOUR definition, not "really profitable" lol) since I'm sure the parent company will not hesitate to chop them off if they are not profitable (especially the fact that you are talking about EA and SOE here, the most corporate of game makers).

So in terms of longest running still profitable (or by your definition, "longest running really profitable" lol) UO is top because it is longest running AND being maintain because it is still making the company money.

 

I already said, that we have different opinions of what could be considered profitable. For me it is live servers + updates + additional money for publisher. For you it is just live servers + updates. Further discussion is pointless

Originally posted by Yizle

Originally posted by wormywyrm
UO I suppose but I think in the minds of many of us it is EQ1 that started the genre.

Then those would be naive minds

Well it was 3D.  If we aren't taking modern graphics into account then may have there been a MUD that would support massive numbers and therefore be a MMORPG?  I'm not familiar.

Everquest immediatly comes to mind, as a clear top choice. It is not the oldest running, nor the most profitable..  but it is clearly the longest running, most profitable mmo.

Ironically, Lineage has equal claim here. But early in it's release it was tuned to be a money maker..   while other MMO's were less profitable, they had better games and content. 

My Vote for Lineage.

UO released on 24 September 1997, (NA) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultima_Online
Lineage released 1. september 1997, (KR) http://m.lineage.plaync.com/board/free/381926

I don't count the NA release date, because as someone who plays rather on EU servers it's seems dumb to fixate on NA release especially when i measure the MMOs in a global scale. If i would go there, i'd only count games which have specific EU releases with EU hostet servers and then it's neither UO or L1.

But the difference between UO and L1 is, the later still makes money AND still gets real updates.

BaramTK, not to be confused with nexustk. Which some wanabe annonymous dork hanging around this

site got his info wrong on another post.

BaramTK went gold in 1996. been going since, strong. which was the product of nexon korea.

not nexon north america which created nexustk. which went gold in 1997, almost 2 years after the

orignal project Baram.

But there are games like meridian thats been around a alongtime also.

But then again i just posted on a topic filled with "statistics" LMAO!!

who cares which game has been around the longest or made the most money.

Bounce

*jumps on a pogo stick*

Jump bounce.

Look @ me!!!               that is seriously how view most of the post on this site.

O

Originally posted by Irondust

Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG

 

 If you are talking about "really profitable" that's even worse - because as I've mentioned repeatedly Lineage is unlikely to ever beat WoW, even if you give Lineage 5 extra years and Wow dies now (of course UO is not in the equation in this instance).

You are still not comprehending the mathematical part of this dilemma.

We have different meanings of "really profitable". I mean "really profitable" in a way that game earns more money, than needed to keep servers up, make updates, new content and tech support. You are said than "really profitable" is "most prifitable in world", which is not true. 

And I'm not talking about mathematics, I'm talking about which game can be considered "profitable" or "not-profitable". Lineage can be considered profitable, UO and EQ can't, basing of publishers financial reports.

"really profitable" is your own criteria. The OP's assignment of "15% of the books" is equally ridiculous when comparing companies with 8 titles and other companies with 20-50 new titles every year for over 15 years.

"What's the longest running profitable MMO?"  The answer, by any measure, is Ultima Online. Had the question been "What's the most profitable MMO of the MMOs that have been around for over a decade?" the answer most likely would have been Lineage.

Originally posted by strykr619

Originally posted by L0C0Man
 

Yet they shut down their NA servers? Sorry but Lineage can't be counted if they had to cut it back due to lack of players. If you want to see a game with little overhead still turning over a good profit look at Everquest. 100k players still 14 years later.   

Does Everquest have servers in Korea? If not, I don't think it counts either. /sarcasm

Ofcourse its Lineage.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

"What's the longest running profitable MMO?"  The answer, by any measure, is Ultima Online. Had the question been "What's the most profitable MMO of the MMOs that have been around for over a decade?" the answer most likely would have been Lineage 2.

 

 Lineage 2 isnt profitable. Lineage 1 is.