Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by Scot

 

Easymode PVP is instanced, teleported in and out with simple short term goals. With a minimum number of factions, small size of PvP area and no consequences to losing. There is so much of it out there now you have possibly forgotern there could be any other kind?

Easymode is ganking someone in open world. Easymode is zerging/blob warfare. The more people involved, the less you have to do and the easier it is.

I've seen the alternatives and I'm not impressed. I find it is infinitely more challenging fighting on equal footing against someone who is willing to fight back.

Although not a big PvPer, this is one time I completely agree with Q. Most PvPers talk a big game, but are quick to tuck tail and run if it's an even fight, or the death penatly is harsh as Q said.

Originally posted by Goatgod76

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by Scot

 

Easymode PVP is instanced, teleported in and out with simple short term goals. With a minimum number of factions, small size of PvP area and no consequences to losing. There is so much of it out there now you have possibly forgotern there could be any other kind?

Easymode is ganking someone in open world. Easymode is zerging/blob warfare. The more people involved, the less you have to do and the easier it is.

I've seen the alternatives and I'm not impressed. I find it is infinitely more challenging fighting on equal footing against someone who is willing to fight back.

Although not a big PvPer, this is one time I completely agree with Q. Most PvPers talk a big game, but are quick to tuck tail and run if it's an even fight, or the death penatly is harsh as Q said.

Now you understand why I don't like PvP. It's essentially a bunch of players talking themselves up and then using cheap tactics, being very lucky on critical hits, or bailing on you. I don't mind the bailing part because that's part of the PvP experience, it's the oversized egos that are the worst to deal with. No matter the outcome, you will hear either "Wasn't ready yet, jerk", "OMG HAXOR", "Haha I beat you cause I am so awesome and you suck", or "I knew you would lose to me because you aren't as skilled as I am" from the opponent.  I'd imagine PvP on a strict RP only server would be great because people would have to follow through with their character.

Originally posted by Goatgod76

I NEVER asserted it should happen. YET AGAIN...if people stop and talk, they stop and talk. If they don't, fine. How is this in any ways pushing that it should happen?

But the ability to just stop and talk should never be taken out of MMORPG's all together. That's it, clear and cut what I mean, and what I have said. Absorb that and understand so I don't need to repeat myself.

You must be a social recluse. I have stopped and talked to people in the real world. Depends on the situation, but I have done it and had quite pleasant conversations. But we aren't discussing the real world...but rather the virtual world.

Believe it or not, people stopped and talked back in EQ. Or would actually stop to help a stranger..sometimes ending in an exchange of thanks, or a conversation..maybe even a friendship...but it happened. If you rather pass everyone by without a word like a large majority of players to get your next shiney...fine. But again...that doesn't mean the ability to do so shouldn't be available to others who enjoy the interaction.

You keep changing your argument. You absolutely have asserted that talking to random strangers should happen, yet you still can't come up with a good reason for it.  Then you start talking about the ability to talk to people being taken away?  Name one MMO that has removed the ability to speak in public or talk in a chat channel.  Just one.  I have no idea what fantasy world you live in where you think any of this is being taken away, there is a difference between not being able to do a thing and not having any interest in doing a thing.  You just don't seem to understand that difference.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Goatgod76

And my apologies...I shouldn't dare mention the possibilities of ONE MMORPG that isn't like the rest, how SELFISH of me.

 

 

You can mention it. But don't act like the devs is obligated to implement that for you.

Ding ding ding ding ding.  We have a winnah!

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Goatgod76

I NEVER asserted it should happen. YET AGAIN...if people stop and talk, they stop and talk. If they don't, fine. How is this in any ways pushing that it should happen?

But the ability to just stop and talk should never be taken out of MMORPG's all together. That's it, clear and cut what I mean, and what I have said. Absorb that and understand so I don't need to repeat myself.

You must be a social recluse. I have stopped and talked to people in the real world. Depends on the situation, but I have done it and had quite pleasant conversations. But we aren't discussing the real world...but rather the virtual world.

Believe it or not, people stopped and talked back in EQ. Or would actually stop to help a stranger..sometimes ending in an exchange of thanks, or a conversation..maybe even a friendship...but it happened. If you rather pass everyone by without a word like a large majority of players to get your next shiney...fine. But again...that doesn't mean the ability to do so shouldn't be available to others who enjoy the interaction.

You keep changing your argument. You absolutely have asserted that talking to random strangers should happen, yet you still can't come up with a good reason for it.  Then you start talking about the ability to talk to people being taken away?  Name one MMO that has removed the ability to speak in public or talk in a chat channel.  Just one.  I have no idea what fantasy world you live in where you think any of this is being taken away, there is a difference between not being able to do a thing and not having any interest in doing a thing.  You just don't seem to understand that difference.

FFS...if you are not going to actually read my posts and comprend them, then I am wasting my time trying to hold intelligent conversation with you. Go read them...and actually think about what I said and the context of them. (Responses between Popori, Nariu and I pages 18 and 19).

This would be much easier to explain face to face....as it's easy to misunderstand things in a forum...this a case in point. Have fun talking to yourself from here on out, as I am growing tired of repeating myself.

Originally posted by Rossboss

 

Now you understand why I don't like PvP. It's essentially a bunch of players talking themselves up and then using cheap tactics, being very lucky on critical hits, or bailing on you. I don't mind the bailing part because that's part of the PvP experience, it's the oversized egos that are the worst to deal with. No matter the outcome, you will hear either "Wasn't ready yet, jerk", "OMG HAXOR", "Haha I beat you cause I am so awesome and you suck", or "I knew you would lose to me because you aren't as skilled as I am" from the opponent.  I'd imagine PvP on a strict RP only server would be great because people would have to follow through with their character.

Play a e-sport game like LOL .. there is no excuse, or at least none that will stick.

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Banaghran

If there are not, then why do we always end up with the argument "the majority has chosen it, therefore it is better" ? (even if it not true apart of special cases)

From both (and sometimes all three) of you?

Flame on!

:)

It has nothing to do with being better, it has everything to do with these games needing to make money and therefore, what the majority of paying customers want, the majority of paying customers get.

"Better" and "worse" are just subjective opinions, they mean nothing.

I see, so 200-300k paying customes can be both success or failure, depending on the point you are trying to make.

That itself makes the "profit" argument a non-issue, only if you want to bash someone with it.

Flame on!

:)

Originally posted by Banaghran

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Banaghran

If there are not, then why do we always end up with the argument "the majority has chosen it, therefore it is better" ? (even if it not true apart of special cases)

From both (and sometimes all three) of you?

Flame on!

:)

It has nothing to do with being better, it has everything to do with these games needing to make money and therefore, what the majority of paying customers want, the majority of paying customers get.

"Better" and "worse" are just subjective opinions, they mean nothing.

I see, so 200-300k paying customes can be both success or failure, depending on the point you are trying to make.

That itself makes the "profit" argument a non-issue, only if you want to bash someone with it.

Flame on!

:)

hmm .. i think "majority" is pretty well defined, and 200-300k is no where close to the "majority".

The key is fun.

Coming from an old timer like me, I think the biggest problem is that there hasn't been a whole lot of innovation with the kinds of activities we do in MMO games - break down the actual actions and tasks you do in a recently released game and they mirror what we were doing back in UO and EQ pretty well.

It's been presented in different ways - action combat, dynamic events, phasing, instancing, etc. etc.

But it's all still pretty much the same at the core.

We need new types of gameplay and new rewards to bring back the fun.

It's just all so static and arbitrary.

MOBs and NPCs still spawn and respawn and create loot/money out of thin air.

Players are still immortal and their character's death rarely ever has any true impact.

Even in quote "dynamic" games and the mythical magical "sandbox" it all boils down to the same, artificial and arbitrary actions over an over again.

We're all just playing the numbers in the end...

Where is the soul?

Stat Craft. Math Box.

Might as well be playing Roller Coaster Repeat or Whack a Mole sandbox.

Originally posted by BadSpock

The key is fun.

Coming from an old timer like me, I think the biggest problem is that there hasn't been a whole lot of innovation with the kinds of activities we do in MMO games - break down the actual actions and tasks you do in a recently released game and they mirror what we were doing back in UO and EQ pretty well.

It's been presented in different ways - action combat, dynamic events, phasing, instancing, etc. etc.

But it's all still pretty much the same at the core.

We need new types of gameplay and new rewards to bring back the fun.

It's just all so static and arbitrary.

MOBs and NPCs still spawn and respawn and create loot/money out of thin air.

Players are still immortal and their character's death rarely ever has any true impact.

Even in quote "dynamic" games and the mythical magical "sandbox" it all boils down to the same, artificial and arbitrary actions over an over again.

We're all just playing the numbers in the end...

Where is the soul?

Stat Craft. Math Box.

Might as well be playing Roller Coaster Repeat or Whack a Mole sandbox.

Fun is subjective, and i don't see why we need a new types of gameplay for fun. Take FPS as an example. It boils down to shooting thing. New shooters are still fun. Dead Space 2 is fun. Borderland 2 is fun. Now i understand fun is subjective .. so may be you don't like it .. but from what i see in the market, and for me, you don't need to be 100% new to be fun.

Secondly, there are very different tasks. Take STO. Space ship combat feels very different, with different considerations, and meta game, compared to fantasy character ground combat.

In fact, even just within the confine of fantasy MMOs, Tera combat is very different from WOW combat.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by BadSpock

The key is fun.

Coming from an old timer like me, I think the biggest problem is that there hasn't been a whole lot of innovation with the kinds of activities we do in MMO games - break down the actual actions and tasks you do in a recently released game and they mirror what we were doing back in UO and EQ pretty well.

It's been presented in different ways - action combat, dynamic events, phasing, instancing, etc. etc.

But it's all still pretty much the same at the core.

We need new types of gameplay and new rewards to bring back the fun.

It's just all so static and arbitrary.

MOBs and NPCs still spawn and respawn and create loot/money out of thin air.

Players are still immortal and their character's death rarely ever has any true impact.

Even in quote "dynamic" games and the mythical magical "sandbox" it all boils down to the same, artificial and arbitrary actions over an over again.

We're all just playing the numbers in the end...

Where is the soul?

Stat Craft. Math Box.

Might as well be playing Roller Coaster Repeat or Whack a Mole sandbox.

Fun is subjective, and i don't see why we need a new types of gameplay for fun. Take FPS as an example. It boils down to shooting thing. New shooters are still fun. Dead Space 2 is fun. Borderland 2 is fun. Now i understand fun is subjective .. so may be you don't like it .. but from what i see in the market, and for me, you don't need to be 100% new to be fun.

Secondly, there are very different tasks. Take STO. Space ship combat feels very different, with different considerations, and meta game, compared to fantasy character ground combat.

In fact, even just within the confine of fantasy MMOs, Tera combat is very different from WOW combat.

MIssing the point.

In STO space combat you press buttons to shoot at ships, you have DPS and HP and special abilities etc. etc. same with ground combat. TERA combat is the same thing - sure you may have to dodge/block but beyond that it is really the same as combat in EQ.

But really the point is - what's the point? Get loot, gain experience, complete a quest, etc.

The mobs all respawn, the loot is created out of thin air, the instances are repeated a million times over.

Sandbox does that aspect better, but sandbox is still artificial and contrived and just as pointless and driven by loot and gaining XP or what not.

I want a MMO where when I go into the woods and hunt down and kill a pack of wandering Orcs and destroy their camp, that has an effect on the world.

Again, sandbox does this better - for example in EvE if I go kill a player and blow up his ship, that ship took resources to build that another player built and another player gathered with a ship and skill books etc. that another player made etc. etc.

But that game too is limited and terribly artificial because all the minerals respawn in asteroid fields and such. There is no scarcity - only rarity due to players not farming at much.

I enjoy "fun" and I have it playing "fun" games that have great action (right now for me its GW2) but the genre has NOT advanced anywhere near as far as I thought it would when I was sitting around playing UO 13+ years ago and day dreaming about what the future of MMOs may hold.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by BadSpock
 

Fun is subjective, and i don't see why we need a new types of gameplay for fun. Take FPS as an example. It boils down to shooting thing. New shooters are still fun. Dead Space 2 is fun. Borderland 2 is fun. Now i understand fun is subjective .. so may be you don't like it .. but from what i see in the market, and for me, you don't need to be 100% new to be fun.

Secondly, there are very different tasks. Take STO. Space ship combat feels very different, with different considerations, and meta game, compared to fantasy character ground combat.

In fact, even just within the confine of fantasy MMOs, Tera combat is very different from WOW combat.

Perhaps some of us need new gameplay just because we've seen all that is out there right now. Then again, there's still a lot to improve in current action MMORPGs and there hasn't been a satisfactory space combat MMO either. Auto Assault fell short on a good idea. So did Pirates of the Burning Sea... Ok, yeah, there is a wide array of gameplay styles that haven't been made "well" yet.

Still... I would welcome new ones too.

Originally posted by BadSpock

Originally posted by nariusseldon
 

MIssing the point.

In STO space combat you press buttons to shoot at ships, you have DPS and HP and special abilities etc. etc. same with ground combat. TERA combat is the same thing - sure you may have to dodge/block but beyond that it is really the same as combat in EQ.

I must say that having played War Thunder now which doesn't use an HP bar, it feels quite refreshing.

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by BadSpock
 

Fun is subjective, and i don't see why we need a new types of gameplay for fun. Take FPS as an example. It boils down to shooting thing. New shooters are still fun. Dead Space 2 is fun. Borderland 2 is fun. Now i understand fun is subjective .. so may be you don't like it .. but from what i see in the market, and for me, you don't need to be 100% new to be fun.

Secondly, there are very different tasks. Take STO. Space ship combat feels very different, with different considerations, and meta game, compared to fantasy character ground combat.

In fact, even just within the confine of fantasy MMOs, Tera combat is very different from WOW combat.

Perhaps some of us need new gameplay just because we've seen all that is out there right now. Then again, there's still a lot to improve in current action MMORPGs and there hasn't been a satisfactory space combat MMO either. Auto Assault fell short on a good idea. So did Pirates of the Burning Sea... Ok, yeah, there is a wide array of gameplay styles that haven't been made "well" yet.

Still... I would welcome new ones too.

Although EVE has it's merits...I yet again am stunned to see myself agree with Quirhid on this. Would be GREAT to see a really decent Space oriented MMO. Hopefully one with at least SOME planet exploration and really good twitch Space combat. No point and click crap.

 

Originally posted by BadSpock

In STO space combat you press buttons to shoot at ships, you have DPS and HP and special abilities etc. etc. same with ground combat. TERA combat is the same thing - sure you may have to dodge/block but beyond that it is really the same as combat in EQ.

That is over-simplification and no difference than saying all video games are the same since you push some buttons and stuff happens on screen.

For example, i play a full phaser cruiser in STO, i need to keep my broadside facing enemies so i can fire all my phasers (with firing arcs different than other weapons) at the enemy ship. This is different from a escort where i manever so my bow is facing the enemy ship and i can fire projectiles.

That is obviously different consideration from the action combat in Tera. If you think that is the same .. then there is no point of looking for new games. They are all the same to you .. just push buttons and stuff happens.

Originally posted by Goatgod76

 

Although EVE has it's merits...I yet again am stunned to see myself agree with Quirhid on this. Would be GREAT to see a really decent Space oriented MMO. Hopefully one with at least SOME planet exploration and really good twitch Space combat. No point and click crap.

 

I am also in agreement. Eve combat is just not fun. STO does space ship combat MUCH better.

Originally posted by Quirhid

 

Perhaps some of us need new gameplay just because we've seen all that is out there right now. Then again, there's still a lot to improve in current action MMORPGs and there hasn't been a satisfactory space combat MMO either. Auto Assault fell short on a good idea. So did Pirates of the Burning Sea... Ok, yeah, there is a wide array of gameplay styles that haven't been made "well" yet.

Still... I would welcome new ones too.

Sure .. no one says you cannot have fun with new improved stuff. May be i am lucky. Many video games are still fun to me. If not, i would have gone to do something else. Why play anything that is not fun?

---

Originally posted by Goatgod76
... I am wasting my time trying to hold intelligent conversation with you...

---

I could have told you that ten pages back. You made your point; no sense in bickering with MMO members who just want to argue.

---

Originally posted by Goatgod76
Although EVE has it's merits...I yet again am stunned to see myself agree with Quirhid on this. Would be GREAT to see a really decent Space oriented MMO. Hopefully one with at least SOME planet exploration and really good twitch Space combat. No point and click crap.

---

Agreed. Some aspects of Eve are amazing. But I don't like that all combat uses auto-pilot and auto-firing.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Banaghran

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Banaghran

If there are not, then why do we always end up with the argument "the majority has chosen it, therefore it is better" ? (even if it not true apart of special cases)

From both (and sometimes all three) of you?

Flame on!

:)

It has nothing to do with being better, it has everything to do with these games needing to make money and therefore, what the majority of paying customers want, the majority of paying customers get.

"Better" and "worse" are just subjective opinions, they mean nothing.

I see, so 200-300k paying customes can be both success or failure, depending on the point you are trying to make.

That itself makes the "profit" argument a non-issue, only if you want to bash someone with it.

Flame on!

:)

hmm .. i think "majority" is pretty well defined, and 200-300k is no where close to the "majority".

Well, i am pointing out, that when someone suggests that rift, a game that appeals (or appealed at launch) to the majority, was not very successful for a 50mil project, we end up in a situation where things like "200-300k is enough for a succesful game" are thrown around.

While now suddenly one has to appeal to the majority because, obviously, eve (300k) or runescape (500k+) are not making enough money and are not succesful.

And given that there are much more gamers than those who ever played a mmo, majority is a foggy concept itself in this case.

Flame on!

:)

A lot of what you require for a sustained number of subscriptions is based on the budget of the game. 200k-300k is a perfectly sustainable number if you budget for that many. The problem is that many of the publishers today throw tons of money at a concept without any real idea of what kind of numbers are geniunely sustainable, and when they fail to make a massive profit, they blame it on the concept, not their own shortcomings and lack of understanding the market looking for that kind of game.