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General Discussion Forum » The Pub at MMORPG.COM » The Problem with MMO's today ....

17 posts found
  craftseeker

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/11/09
Posts: 651

 
OP  1/31/13 8:20:29 PM#1

The Problem with MMO's today.....

Well the problem is probably not with MMO's or the Developers or the Companies that produce the games, it is probably with me.

Back when I started playing Role Playing Games, they were just that Role Playing. A few friends and I had an idea this Dungeons and Dragons thing might be fun. One of us, I can not remember who, thought that they would have a go at being the "Game Master" and started wrighting stuff and creating a bit of a plot. After a couple of weeks of this he announced he was ready and we all gathered in the pool room at my house and started to play. Pretty soon what we had going was a sort of group created interactive novel. This is what I remember and this is what I love.

We had no problem in seperating what our characters where doing and how they were interacting from what we were doing as teenagers and how we interacted, we did not get any sort of ego boost by playing the game or think we were better than the others because we levelled faster or hit harder or whatever, it was a game we did together and had fun.

Years later (a couple of decades actually) when I started playing Everquest I found much the same thing, the game master had been replaced by Verant (SOE), my D&D friends and I had long since lost touch but I found new people and made new friends. Role playing was a big part of the experience and people did things with their characters because that was what the characters would do. You did not see people jumping down the road or just jumping. They walked, run or rode as their character would have. Lots of things that are now common place and regarded as legitimate fun were unknown, rare or at least very uncommon. Griefing, ganking and trolling (if they were even labelled as that) were disapproved of and sanctioned by GM's and players alike. Yes they were much discussed but not as 'legendary' or 'epic' but as childish and disreputable.

Today these things are regarded as normal parts of the game, whole guilds indulge in them on a regular basis. No real disapproval no sanctions, indeed some games are being designed to encourage this sort of behaviour.

As for seperating the character from the player, there is a steady progression towards making the character simply a wardrobe choice for the player, multiple characters becoming just multiple outfits for the same player. No role playing at all, unless you count people who have an on-line persona that they would never dare to act out in real life.

For people with my mindset this is bad thing. A down hill slide into 'console' style 'action' and 'magic realism'. For, what I believe is the majority of MMO players today, this is a major "quality of life" improvement.

In the end, looking at RIFT today, at the other AAA games out there and at what is coming in 2013 I have little desire to play any MMO. I still want to play a multiplayer online role playing game, with a fantasy theme and current generation graphics. I have the money and the time to play one. Unfortuantely no company out there thinks there is enough of a market to actually make one.

As I said in the beginning the fault is with my perceptions and desires, the gaming industry is catering to the market that exists and not to my personal tastes.

 

Everything changes.

... when my parents purchased the house I am now living in, I was amazed by the postman arriving each day on horse back and not on a bicycle ...now it is sort of a motor scooter thingy.

In those first years milk was delivered each morning around 6am, a truck came around each day to deliver bread and such and there was a guy delivering 'soda' by the crate each week. Kangaroos where a regular sight on the newly growing front lawn and 200 yards up the hill you were in native woodland.

Now there are parklands down the hill (it was farmland then) and up the hill and for 20 miles beyond it is all houses.

Yes everything changes, not necessarily for the better, and those of us who remember it well get nostalgic and would like to see some of it again.

That does not mean I expect change to happen, or that more than a fraction of the player base agree or feel the same way.

What it does mean is that there is a section of the market whose desires are not being met, a cashed up time rich section of the market that hopefully someone will start to cater to. Who knows some of the younger folk out there may find it is more fun as well.

  Robokapp

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4822

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

1/31/13 8:29:44 PM#2

"Everything changs" is not valid.

 

change happens out of necesity. The goal of change is improvement.

 

In your post you never stated why the mailman traded his horse for a scooter, although it's obvious. what's less obvious is why the RP has to die in favor of instant gratification.

 

I don't think it's an improvement. Therefore I don't think this change is warranted.

 

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20663

1/31/13 8:33:10 PM#3
Originally posted by Robokapp

In your post you never stated why the mailman traded his horse for a scooter, although it's obvious. what's less obvious is why the RP has to die in favor of instant gratification.


 

 

Isn't that obvious? Many people prefer to have fun faster, than slower.

  Cephus404

Novice Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3697

1/31/13 8:36:26 PM#4
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Robokapp

In your post you never stated why the mailman traded his horse for a scooter, although it's obvious. what's less obvious is why the RP has to die in favor of instant gratification.


 

 

Isn't that obvious? Many people prefer to have fun faster, than slower.

Also the fact that MMOs were never built with RPing in mind, it's essentially limited to talking funny and dressing up.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None

  Goatgod76

Novice Member

Joined: 6/24/06
Posts: 1226

1/31/13 8:38:02 PM#5

Although I did RP a little in EQ (As a Dark Elf SK in an all Dark Elf Guild and a Wood Elf Ranger that was the daughter of another two players) I didn't do it all the time. It was a minor thing I did at times when I felt like it.

 

I also played P&P D&D, and Rift (The P&P game, not Rifts the new MMO).

I know what you are getting at though. It is much harder to get lost in the fantasy world these days to forget if just for a bit about your stressful job, bills, and dealing with some people because it follows you into the world. People acting like idiots on a sadly common basis, and every MMORPG treated like a race to be #1 and no community feel.

 

Maybe someday we will see another one again. Hopefully before I have arthritis and catarax.

  Robokapp

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4822

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

1/31/13 8:38:07 PM#6
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Robokapp

In your post you never stated why the mailman traded his horse for a scooter, although it's obvious. what's less obvious is why the RP has to die in favor of instant gratification.


 

 

Isn't that obvious? Many people prefer to have fun faster, than slower.

it's obvious indeed. just as obvious as the fact that once they had their fun they get bored. Like human beings often do.

 

I'm not seeing it as obvious why evelopers want their customers to burn through and walk away faster, not slower.

 

Perhaps you can help me here...why does a developer develop (across 5 years)  a game that is obsolete in 6 months ? Is there some advantage to this ? because minus maybe Rift, everything 2007+ crumbled because it followed this mindset.

  Goatgod76

Novice Member

Joined: 6/24/06
Posts: 1226

1/31/13 8:39:42 PM#7
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Robokapp

In your post you never stated why the mailman traded his horse for a scooter, although it's obvious. what's less obvious is why the RP has to die in favor of instant gratification.


 

 

Isn't that obvious? Many people prefer to have fun faster, than slower.

This is why console games exist. MMORPG's weren't really meant for that. They just evolved that way since WoW brought what it did and everyone else followed suit chasing the cash...sadly.

 

I often wonder why people play MMORPG's if they can't make the time to enjoy them at a moderate pace and find the fun and accomplishment in the time they can spend in game.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20663

1/31/13 8:42:22 PM#8
Originally posted by Goatgod76
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Robokapp

In your post you never stated why the mailman traded his horse for a scooter, although it's obvious. what's less obvious is why the RP has to die in favor of instant gratification.


 

 

Isn't that obvious? Many people prefer to have fun faster, than slower.

This is why console games exist. MMORPG's weren't really meant for that. They just evolved that way since WoW brought what it did and everyone else followed suit chasing the cash...sadly.

MMORPG are not "meant for" anything. They are just entertainment products, and have to compete with other PC games, console games, movies .. for people's time and money.

And if players truly prefer to have fun faster, what is wrong with giving it to them? It is called supply and demand .. the corner stone of our free market economy.

  Robokapp

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4822

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

1/31/13 8:44:07 PM#9
Originally posted by Goatgod76
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Robokapp

In your post you never stated why the mailman traded his horse for a scooter, although it's obvious. what's less obvious is why the RP has to die in favor of instant gratification.


 

 

Isn't that obvious? Many people prefer to have fun faster, than slower.

This is why console games exist. MMORPG's weren't really meant for that. They just evolved that way since WoW brought what it did and everyone else followed suit chasing the cash...sadly.

WoW players raid the endgame for 6 months between tiers.

WoW hardmodes are taking many weeks for all but the elitest of the elite.

 

Even WoW is not "beatable in two weeks".

 

I feel this isn't wow's fault. this is the fault of those who tried to out-casualize wow. What wow does fits WoW's content release speed well...or did, I can't speak in present tense as i no lnoger play. There's side games, there's time sinks...it's not AS casual as some of the things released nowadays that are empty after first billing cycle.

  Goatgod76

Novice Member

Joined: 6/24/06
Posts: 1226

1/31/13 8:44:48 PM#10
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Goatgod76
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Robokapp

In your post you never stated why the mailman traded his horse for a scooter, although it's obvious. what's less obvious is why the RP has to die in favor of instant gratification.


 

 

Isn't that obvious? Many people prefer to have fun faster, than slower.

This is why console games exist. MMORPG's weren't really meant for that. They just evolved that way since WoW brought what it did and everyone else followed suit chasing the cash...sadly.

MMORPG are not "meant for" anything. They are just entertainment products, and have to compete with other PC games, console games, movies .. for people's time and money.

And if players truly prefer to have fun faster, what is wrong with giving it to them? It is called supply and demand .. the corner stone of our free market economy.

They started as live action RPG games. They took awhile to grasp, to level, to quest (Chain quests existed), etc. They have evolved into fast paced action games. So yes, they started with a clear difference from what they are now...which I feel are console-like RPG's that just "happen" to have other players in it that basically act as NPC's since few interact unless they need something.

No one said there was something wrong with wanting faster anyways. I just don't prefer it, and sadly...they all do that now chasing the cash cow they won't catch.

 

Hence why you have a gazillion MMO's advertise, promote, offer exclusive crap, then release and go down the drain in 6 months. Looking for the quick cash grab instead of longetivity and creativity.

  Bladestrom

Elite Member

Joined: 4/04/11
Posts: 3874

1/31/13 8:47:51 PM#11
No issue except where people but a game that does z, but then they wake up next morning to find that their game no longer does z it does y because more people will play it. The best solution ofc is to have z and y as 2 seperate games, but instead you have people demanding that y does z and vice versa. Supply and demand is different from supply - demand- swap what we supplied with something you don't want.

rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW (10000 hrs on main mage)> oblivion > LOTR (600 runemaster/Hunter) > Rift (230 hours mage) > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR

  Goatgod76

Novice Member

Joined: 6/24/06
Posts: 1226

1/31/13 8:50:29 PM#12
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by Goatgod76
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Robokapp

In your post you never stated why the mailman traded his horse for a scooter, although it's obvious. what's less obvious is why the RP has to die in favor of instant gratification.


 

 

Isn't that obvious? Many people prefer to have fun faster, than slower.

This is why console games exist. MMORPG's weren't really meant for that. They just evolved that way since WoW brought what it did and everyone else followed suit chasing the cash...sadly.

WoW players raid the endgame for 6 months between tiers.

WoW hardmodes are taking many weeks for all but the elitest of the elite.

 

Even WoW is not "beatable in two weeks".

 

I feel this isn't wow's fault. this is the fault of those who tried to out-casualize wow. What wow does fits WoW's content release speed well...or did, I can't speak in present tense as i no lnoger play. There's side games, there's time sinks...it's not AS casual as some of the things released nowadays that are empty after first billing cycle.

I don't think there is anythign "elite" about doing the same raid over and over just so I can say "Look at me! I have the top gear! I'm so cool!". Once your Guild gets it down after a few tries..there isn't much difficult about it.

 

It's the same as people who say there isn't anything challenging about old school MMO's, they just take time. Same thing. But the newer ones STILL don't compare in logetivity to older ones.

I played EQ for 5 years and left it without seeing all the content. Hell, it is STILL putting out expansions and has a playerbase...how many, other than WoW can say that these days.

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13810

1/31/13 8:50:57 PM#13

In other words, what you want is more role-playing and less game.  If you play a "role-playing game" in which most of the other players are there to play the game and don't want to role-play, then I can see why that's a problem for you.

You're surely not the only person in the world who wants the role-playing side of things more than the game; that's why role-playing servers exist in the first place.  But as you're aware, your tastes are definitely in the minority.  If a company wanted to make an MMORPG that caters to people like you, it's not entirely clear how they would do it.

They'd probably have to make it not very good on its merits purely as a game, both to avoid constantly bashing you over the head with "you fail at the game because you made your gear choices with regard to role-playing and not purely based on the stats they give", and also to keep you and those like you from being drowning in a sea of people who only want to play the game and don't care to role-play.  But you can see the problem with saying, "We're going to intentionally make our game bad so that people who just want to play the game will get bored and quit and leave the role-players alone."

I wonder if it would be practical for a game that takes the separate servers model of instancing to designate a particular server as the role-playing server and intentionally change a bunch of game mechanics to give you the freedom to role-play however you want while making the game rules on that server seem completely stupid to those who only want to level up, kill things, get epics, and gank people.  For example, a lot more randomness in what happens, to the degree that many of your encounters aren't play-balanced very well.  And far less effect of gear and build choices, so that you don't have to weigh everything on the basis of what has the best stats and gives you the most damage per second.  That might help to dissuade non-role-players from playing on the role-playing server for game-related reasons.  Or would game design choices like that break everything for you, too?

  aleos

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/02/07
Posts: 1900

Imagination is the only weapon in the war against reality.

1/31/13 8:53:04 PM#14
you could've just said "things change" and left it at that.
  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13810

1/31/13 8:54:47 PM#15
Originally posted by Goatgod76
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by Goatgod76
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Robokapp

In your post you never stated why the mailman traded his horse for a scooter, although it's obvious. what's less obvious is why the RP has to die in favor of instant gratification.


 

 

Isn't that obvious? Many people prefer to have fun faster, than slower.

This is why console games exist. MMORPG's weren't really meant for that. They just evolved that way since WoW brought what it did and everyone else followed suit chasing the cash...sadly.

WoW players raid the endgame for 6 months between tiers.

WoW hardmodes are taking many weeks for all but the elitest of the elite.

 

Even WoW is not "beatable in two weeks".

 

I feel this isn't wow's fault. this is the fault of those who tried to out-casualize wow. What wow does fits WoW's content release speed well...or did, I can't speak in present tense as i no lnoger play. There's side games, there's time sinks...it's not AS casual as some of the things released nowadays that are empty after first billing cycle.

I don't think there is anythign "elite" about doing the same raid over and over just so I can say "Look at me! I have the top gear! I'm so cool!". Once your Guild gets it down after a few tries..there isn't much difficult about it.

 

It's the same as people who say there isn't anything challenging about old school MMO's, they just take time. Same thing. But the newer ones STILL don't compare in logetivity to older ones.

I played EQ for 5 years and left it without seeing all the content. Hell, it is STILL putting out expansions and has a playerbase...how many, other than WoW can say that these days.

It takes a lot longer to see a given amount of content if you have to spend most of your time grinding something stupid rather than seeing new content.  But when you have competitors that will let players just go see the content and do everything quickly, asking your players to spend 90% of their time grinding some filler between proper content doesn't make them stay for ten times as long.  It makes them not pick up your game in the first place.

  Goatgod76

Novice Member

Joined: 6/24/06
Posts: 1226

1/31/13 8:56:42 PM#16

You don't have to make a game bad to RP lol. That is ridiculous. EQ wasn't solely RP. Yes, it had RP servers, but even on non-RP servers there was quite a bit of RPing taking place. And EQ was and still is a good game. It's all in the eye of the beholder.

 

Players then used imagination. Players now have no patience and lack imagination. They just want everything quick. Some people can find the fun in any situation or time frame.

 

I use to find grinding mobs in certain zones in EQ for hours fun. Mainly because mobs had randomized drops and you could get almost anything from a kill...making each one exciting to see what you may get. And of course for the good xp.

 

You don't really have that now...most mobs have designated drops so you already know what's coming...so yeah...grinding in a newer MMO sucks.

  Latronus

Novice Member

Joined: 1/10/08
Posts: 718

PC is not political correctness, it means Political Cowardice!

1/31/13 8:58:50 PM#17
Originally posted by Robokapp

"Everything changs" is not valid.

 

change happens out of necesity. The goal of change is improvement.

 

In your post you never stated why the mailman traded his horse for a scooter, although it's obvious. what's less obvious is why the RP has to die in favor of instant gratification.

 

I don't think it's an improvement. Therefore I don't think this change is warranted.

 

 

I tend to disagree.  Change is neither good nor bad it is what it is... Change.  To some it's good to others bad.  To me the changes that have occurred are anything but good. To those that are newer, the changes are probably good.  It's all in the perception of the individual.  

Since there are more of the younger generation than those old school gamers like me, history will probably say that most of the changes we've had since say EQ are good.  Since there are more customers playing and paying, I'm sure he industry thinks the changes are good as well.  It's all in the perception.