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General Discussion Forum » The Pub at MMORPG.COM » Am I alone in searching for this elements in a game?

11 posts found
  xdemonhunter

Novice Member

Joined: 4/24/12
Posts: 31

 
OP  1/27/13 10:45:43 PM#1

This is likely going to be a long post so u being warned.

 

I keep reading people claiming they want this or that to make a game be good for than, sandbox players complaining that there isnt any game that offer a particular feature they like in a decent fashion, and themepark players complaing that everything is a WoW clone. And the thing is of all those comments i dont see anyone talking about something i find crucial for a good game, so im wondering if im the only one that actually cares about it.

 

I know what people look in  MMORPG greatly differ, but am i the only one that wants my decisions to really affect how my chars turn out? I like RPGs char progression and i wanna have control over it, i want my warrior/priest/wizard to be affected by my choices in skills/stats/gear and i wanna have a vast ammount of possible choices. I trully enjoin games that give you enought freedom to create a huge variety of builds each with its own positive and negative sides and i really dont see anymore of this in any of the newer games.

 

To me the original Ragnarok Online game (think it is 12 years old now), did an amazing job on this particular area, your choices in stats made or broke your char, there was alot of possibilitys for every class and there were upsides and downsides for every choice you made (unlike half the new games that your choices either dont matter or there is a clear "best choice"). This created alot of unique playstyles offering different uses, one particular build could excel in 1 on 1 pvp but be hard to lvl and not very usefull on WoE (War of the Emperium it was the Guilds vs Guild event). Also while 1 particular stat like dexterity or agility could improve one particular set of skills another completely different stat could affect completely different skills, it all worked in synergy and you could see 2 knights performing playing entirely difference. The game also worked with a skill tree in which each subsequent skill had certain requeriments so you had to think it thought and you could just master every single usefull ability (unlike current games), also since certain skills beneficted from completely oppositive stats you couldnt/wouldnt pick both.

 

The game didnt work with a very big vertical progression, the same gear you could equip at lvl 60 you could use at lvl cap the big difference is the game offered a card system. Every monster in the game had it respective card with tons of very different abilitys, somewould make you immune to freeze stats other would increase your dmg against a certain type of monster or reduce it. At the end of it all those card provided a very rich amount of choices for the player to pick, in general you would try to synergize those cards with your stats/skills since certain cards gave bonus to stats and reaching a certain stats amount would provide a special bonus (every 10 points in str you would get a bigger increase in total physical dmg or every 15 in dex you would get a bigger cast time reduction for spells).

The card system was also a very clever way to keep all the game usefull, some of the cards with the most usefull effects dropped from weak/noobie monsters so there was always a reason to go back to older maps. There was also a very interesting elemental system where certain elements would do incresed or reduced dmg against monster or players (certain cards turned the player from the default neutral element in a different element type), for exemple water type monster would take increased dmg from wind and reduced dmg from fire.

 

Anyway what i was trying to say is i felt like my choices mattered, that i was the driving force behind my chars and that everybody was unique there was an infinity of different playstyles and builds and even small twiks in a build made a noticible difference to the point people would argue often about it. I just dont see that anymore in any of the newer games and apparently nobody else seems to care about it. Current games either completely take that ability of you or dumb it down to a point that whatever choices you make dont affect the game (there is no point in giving points to spend on stats if a warrior that has 100 int and another that has 100 str do respectivily 3900 dmg and 4000 dmg at end game with whatever raid crap they are using). Now i aint saying Ragnarok was a perfect game it had many flaws and i know that many things on it would drive sandbox and themepark players alike away, but why completely disregard what it did right?

 

I tryed Ragnarok Online 2 a couple days ago in hopes they had kept the game play mecanisms and im dissapointed, the game suffered a completely dumbed  down change, everything that made the original unique was changed to make it more like WoW and that just sad. I dont know if im a themepark player or a sandbox player to be entirely honest i dont even undestand both concepts fully but many changes that were done in hopes to improve MMORPGS just butchered them and for some reason became mandatory with no end in sight. The current "quest hub" as most call it was introduced to take off the "burden" of grinding and i just dislike it and it worked in a way but created a bigger problem for me at least. Now the gameplay is completely linear i cant go outside of the quest hub because of how the game was designed im forced to follow the quest and hit specific areas at specific lvls, back when it was just grinding on ragnarok at least there was tons of different possible grinding areas that could be used accordly to ur build and class it made me explore the maps in hopes of finding different areas to lvl faster or to avoid the heavy popular grinding areas.

 

I suppose all im asking for is more complex gameplay, but i guess some people that are so used to the newer games wouldnt like that (games where you can switch builds at will and that it takes a month to cap kill the concept im talking about since many of the most usefull builds in terms of PvP/Woe had as one of the down side slow lvling but that was in a game that could take more than a year to cap with a good PvE build not a month).

  Oldbugss

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/12
Posts: 21

1/27/13 10:54:12 PM#2

It's highly unlikely you are the only one. In fact, it's improbable. If you have thought of it and think it's cool and want it in an mmo,

chances are it's been thought of or proposed.

 

With that, I agree with you. Even though you did warn me of a long post, it could have been reduced greatly for the same effect.

  BitterClinger

Novice Member

Joined: 11/19/12
Posts: 208

2014 Watch List: World of Warships, ArcheAge

1/27/13 11:07:40 PM#3

There are a great many gamers that want what you want in an MMORPG.  It's not going to happen.  Heck, developers won't even do it in a single-player game, let alone an MMO game.

The reason is this... customer backlash. What happens when "Item Z" becomes the coolest item in the game, but it is denied to 60% of the gamers because they don't keep up with daily game blogs and didn't know you weren't supposed to kill "NPC X" because he would later give you "Quest Y", which leads to "Item Z".  You can extrapolate this to skills or any other game content.

Players don't mind games "allowing" to make mistakes.  The unforgivable sin is denying players the ability to go back and fix it.

Top Games Played JAN 2014: World of Warplanes, Guild Wars 2, World of Tanks

  Rinna

Novice Member

Joined: 9/25/04
Posts: 387

1/27/13 11:20:26 PM#4

The Repopulation is going to have a large scale of skills that are going to advance as you use items and increase those skills.  

A beta I was in just recently also had the same thing, choose and use a pistol, skill up pistols, choose to sprint, skill up sprint, choose to sneak, skill up sneak, choose to drive a 4 wheel ATV, skill up ATV... 

Your character, completely defined by the decisions you make in the game.

Kind of like the process in Skyrim... I think this type of 'class customization' is making a comeback.  But I agree that present day gamers don't like the type of character choices that can't be reversed or corrected.

No bitchers.

  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2798

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

1/27/13 11:28:18 PM#5
Originally posted by Rinna

The Repopulation is going to have a large scale of skills that are going to advance as you use items and increase those skills.  

A beta I was in just recently also had the same thing, choose and use a pistol, skill up pistols, choose to sprint, skill up sprint, choose to sneak, skill up sneak, choose to drive a 4 wheel ATV, skill up ATV... 

Your character, completely defined by the decisions you make in the game.

Kind of like the process in Skyrim... I think this type of 'class customization' is making a comeback.  But I agree that present day gamers don't like the type of character choices that can't be reversed or corrected.

Wish something like this was part of a fantasy game.  I just do not like scifi at all.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  greenreen

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/19/12
Posts: 1454

1/27/13 11:55:43 PM#6

May I blow your mind for a moment.

I play a game where you get skills in pieces. You then use those pieces to create skills in your own combinations. That is for fighting, crafting, and harvesting. There is no "best" anything, it all has reasons and ways to use them. Your character is a hybrid of anything you want too for fighting skills.

It might be up your alley. Might not, these links could give you an idea of the specialization.

http://en.ryzomnomnom.com/wiki/Harvesting

http://en.ryzomnomnom.com/wiki/Crafting

They also added occupations that are more forms of making your character different.

http://en.ryzomnomnom.com/wiki/Occupations

Then there is fame that I haven't barely played with in the years I've played the game.

http://en.ryzomnomnom.com/wiki/Fame

Where you would probably be let down in this game is the way the character looks, there aren't as many options for the model as other games with all sorts of details.

I can't find a good link showing the breakdown of stanzas but trust me, they are the most customizable skill system I have EVER seen in any game - no competition from any other game comes nearly close.

This is the closest but you have to see it to get it completely.

http://www.aedenartisans.com/documents/ryzom-actions.html

What I'm saying is, there are probably games out there for your interests. This one happens to have some of them.

  xdemonhunter

Novice Member

Joined: 4/24/12
Posts: 31

 
OP  1/28/13 9:07:21 AM#7
Originally posted by Oldbugss

It's highly unlikely you are the only one. In fact, it's improbable. If you have thought of it and think it's cool and want it in an mmo,

chances are it's been thought of or proposed.

 

With that, I agree with you. Even though you did warn me of a long post, it could have been reduced greatly for the same effect.

You might be right i guess i get this feeling im alone because i constantly see all kinds of discussions on this forum based on what people would want in a MMORPG or what they would change in one that is already out to make it better and i have never seen anyone pushing for this. Makes it look like either nobody cares or just a very small segment.Also i tend to post examples to try to better illustrate my point and using Ragnarok as a refference i kind had to explain some game mecanisms and thats why the post got long. I didnt even go that far on the game mecanisms there was so much more to it but it is hard to explain it all without creating walls of text.

The original point was that the game had alot to offer as it was simple to get in but once you started there was so many "complex" elements that could affect your gaming experience and playstyle, also the game avoided the much hated "end game content". And i dont see that stuff anymore in the newer games they just droped any lvl of complexity, now games just limit your choices in all directions, there is little if any real control in building your char (either you are not given any choices or your choices dont really affect your char or the game is build in a way that there is really 1 or 2 builds that acctually work, i heard diablo 3 is like that.) and in terms of gear we got the "grinding for gear concept" where there is one particular piece of equipment that is 10 times better than anything else in the game and people just raid non stop to get it (takes all the power away in terms of choices from the player). And what we get at the end is thousands of people that play exacly the same and look exacly the same with their "sets of awesomeness" or "swords of whatver cap raid is going on".

 

Originally posted by BitterClinger

There are a great many gamers that want what you want in an MMORPG.  It's not going to happen.  Heck, developers won't even do it in a single-player game, let alone an MMO game.

The reason is this... customer backlash. What happens when "Item Z" becomes the coolest item in the game, but it is denied to 60% of the gamers because they don't keep up with daily game blogs and didn't know you weren't supposed to kill "NPC X" because he would later give you "Quest Y", which leads to "Item Z".  You can extrapolate this to skills or any other game content.

Players don't mind games "allowing" to make mistakes.  The unforgivable sin is denying players the ability to go back and fix it.

Not sure where your getting that from, i never proposed such thing. All i said is that in a game where choosing a build truly affected your game style and performance in specific areas the ability to switch builds at will would literally kill any "unique" play style, many builds for example were hard to lvl on Ragnarok and they pay off is that they were better in certain areas if you could switch builds at will anyone could reach their desired lvl and just changed builds any time they wanted to suit whatever they wanted to do. I get it is not a concept alot of the new gamers would embrace but that really created a ton of unique players that went that extra mile to get a different build from the rest, nothing stoping anyone from creating a difference char and following a different path the thing is new gamers are lazy and most of them would only see that as a bother.

Originally posted by greenreen

May I blow your mind for a moment.

I play a game where you get skills in pieces. You then use those pieces to create skills in your own combinations. That is for fighting, crafting, and harvesting. There is no "best" anything, it all has reasons and ways to use them. Your character is a hybrid of anything you want too for fighting skills.

It might be up your alley. Might not, these links could give you an idea of the specialization.

http://en.ryzomnomnom.com/wiki/Harvesting

http://en.ryzomnomnom.com/wiki/Crafting

They also added occupations that are more forms of making your character different.

http://en.ryzomnomnom.com/wiki/Occupations

Then there is fame that I haven't barely played with in the years I've played the game.

http://en.ryzomnomnom.com/wiki/Fame

Where you would probably be let down in this game is the way the character looks, there aren't as many options for the model as other games with all sorts of details.

I can't find a good link showing the breakdown of stanzas but trust me, they are the most customizable skill system I have EVER seen in any game - no competition from any other game comes nearly close.

This is the closest but you have to see it to get it completely.

http://www.aedenartisans.com/documents/ryzom-actions.html

What I'm saying is, there are probably games out there for your interests. This one happens to have some of them.

Thanks i will have a look at it and see if it is my kind of game.

  Neanderthal

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/14/05
Posts: 1613

1/28/13 9:43:49 AM#8

I have to admit I have reservations about this type of thing.  The problem is if it's easy to gimp your character it can be very frustrating.  If I played a game like this they better make all the information I need to understand the system easily available in the game (and not require me to research it on fan sites) or I'm going to be pissed.

Ok, for example, let's say I give my fighter guy 90 strength.  But then a month later I discover that I can't use a certain key fighter skill because it requires 91 strength.  But nothing in the game TOLD me in advance about this.  See?  Stuff like that really burns me up.

And you can never really out  guess the arbitrary stuff that developers will throw in to the game.  Some weird thing might make sense to a particular dev but how am I supposed to get inside his head to understand it.  Like, for example, one of the devs might decide that a skill for sewing increases your piercing skill so that if you took sewing it will end up doubling the damage you do with piercing weapons.  But they didn't TELL me that when I was starting out with my young new character so I took skinning as a tradeskill instead and now my guy who I focused on piercing weapons with is screwed because he only does half the damage that all other piercing weapon guys do.

Yeah, stuff like that drives me up the wall.  So you either need to allow people to easily change their character build, in which case those choices are not so important, or you need to try really, really hard to avoid stupid crap like this and make all the information readily available and layed out in an easy to understand format.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12401

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

1/28/13 10:01:29 AM#9
Originally posted by xdemonhunter

I know what people look in  MMORPG greatly differ, but am i the only one that wants my decisions to really affect how my chars turn out?

Even within that particular feature people greatly differ in what they look for. Someof the common ones are:

 

  • Stats affecting the appearance of the character.
  • No respeccing or skill resets.
  • Quest trees and storyline paths where your decisions affect what content you will or won't have access to.
 
Identifying how many people want those choices and then making an economically viable game to support them is the real project.

 

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  xdemonhunter

Novice Member

Joined: 4/24/12
Posts: 31

 
OP  1/28/13 12:22:42 PM#10
Originally posted by Neanderthal

I have to admit I have reservations about this type of thing.  The problem is if it's easy to gimp your character it can be very frustrating.  If I played a game like this they better make all the information I need to understand the system easily available in the game (and not require me to research it on fan sites) or I'm going to be pissed.

Ok, for example, let's say I give my fighter guy 90 strength.  But then a month later I discover that I can't use a certain key fighter skill because it requires 91 strength.  But nothing in the game TOLD me in advance about this.  See?  Stuff like that really burns me up.

And you can never really out  guess the arbitrary stuff that developers will throw in to the game.  Some weird thing might make sense to a particular dev but how am I supposed to get inside his head to understand it.  Like, for example, one of the devs might decide that a skill for sewing increases your piercing skill so that if you took sewing it will end up doubling the damage you do with piercing weapons.  But they didn't TELL me that when I was starting out with my young new character so I took skinning as a tradeskill instead and now my guy who I focused on piercing weapons with is screwed because he only does half the damage that all other piercing weapon guys do.

Yeah, stuff like that drives me up the wall.  So you either need to allow people to easily change their character build, in which case those choices are not so important, or you need to try really, really hard to avoid stupid crap like this and make all the information readily available and layed out in an easy to understand format.

I get where what your trying to say but this is why i think Ragnarok model was brilliant it did it in a way that kind of thing didnt happen. There was a guide on their webside explaining how it worked but im gonna explain how they did it: every stat had a particular use and you would get bonuses if u reached a particular amount, meaning that every point added in inteligence for example would increase your matck/mdef/mana regen and amount of mana you get per mana potion but every 10 points you got in int you would get a bigger increase on those things (you would try to finish your build to get the last possible bonus so usually in intervals of 10/20/30...) Might be easier to check the page since im gonna do a lousy job explaining this.

Now the game worked with a skill tree, you would have to get certain skill lvls to unlock a particular skill you liked, on the skill descrition you would have the information on how did the skill work what would increase its damage if it had a cast time or not and the like. Now on the same class there were skills that were affected by completely antagonistic stats, meaning 1 skill could have its dmg increase by streght its attack speed increased by agility and dexterity would affect its chance to hit (gave had dodge as well so it would be something like your chance to hit minus how high the enemie dodge was), on the other hand another skill could be a magical skill that always hitted and had its dmg increased by int and its cast time reduced by dex.

You could pick any skill you wanted as long as you had enought  skill points but how well it gonna perform is entirely based on your stat allocation, this was a game that if you picked an assasin class got his physical skills but had 1 str you would do 10 dmg on the other hand if you had 120 str you could do 1-2k dmg depending on your card choices. All the information was presented to you and the only way to really go wrong was pick the wrong skill/stat combinations (if the game tells you 1 skill needs int for dmg and you pick it and without getting any int it is entirely your fault).

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20125

1/28/13 12:47:18 PM#11
Originally posted by xdemonhunter

This is likely going to be a long post so u being warned.


I know what people look in  MMORPG greatly differ, but am i the only one that wants my decisions to really affect how my chars turn out? I like RPGs char progression and i wanna have control over it, i want my warrior/priest/wizard to be affected by my choices in skills/stats/gear and i wanna have a vast ammount of possible choices. I trully enjoin games that give you enought freedom to create a huge variety of builds each with its own positive and negative sides and i really dont see anymore of this in any of the newer games.

Vast amount of possible choices does not mean that they are interesting, or even deep.

If your char has 100 stats, and only 1 will improve its combat power, then everyone will put every point into that. To some extent, this is what happen with DPS optimization in many MMOs. There is only "one" correct build if you want the max dps, or whatever criterion. The apparent complexity is a red herring.

The only skill choices that i find interesting is how D3 is doing it. Each choice does a different thing. If you use rune A, your spell will behave differently then rune B. For example, there is a rune in Slow Time (a bubble that slow enemies) that will increase you attack speed, and one that will let the mob takes more damage. They look similar on the face (since increase attack speed = more damage) but for builds that use proc effects, the attack speed rune is the winner, and for other straight demand build, 20% damage increase is better.

These, i consider, more interesting choices than whether i should put a point in INT or VIT.