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32 posts found
  danmax67

Novice Member

Joined: 10/14/05
Posts: 30

 
OP  1/25/13 4:22:45 PM#1

I see this term all the  time.  I think I know what Pay to Win means in theory, but I'm not sure I know what it means in reality.  I don't know anybody that claims to prefer a Pay to Win game, and I'm not aware of any games that represent themselves as Pay to Win.

 

So, I ask - what are some examples of Pay to Win games and what game do you think is the most egregious example of Pay to Win?

  BitterClinger

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/19/12
Posts: 208

2014 Watch List: World of Warships, ArcheAge

1/25/13 4:47:08 PM#2
Originally posted by danmax67

<snip> I don't know anybody that claims to prefer a Pay to Win game... <snip>

In that case, I'd like to introduce myself as the first person you know who claims to prefer Pay-to-Win. If the entry point to the best gear is playing the same content over and over again 20+ hours per week, then I would really prefer just to buy the gear for real money.

The game I have played that I would categorize as Pay to Win would be Age of Empires Online, and I'm perfectly fine with that.  It's a really good game.

The game I most wanted to be Pay to Win is World of Warcraft. I never could break into the very top tier gear because I just couldn't do the time for raiding.

Top Games Played JAN 2014: World of Warplanes, Guild Wars 2, World of Tanks

  kadepsyson

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/15/06
Posts: 1966

The doctors say his chances are 50/50...but there's only a 10% chance of that.

1/25/13 4:48:52 PM#3
Originally posted by BitterClinger
Originally posted by danmax67

I don't know anybody that claims to prefer a Pay to Win game...

In that case, I'd like to introduce myself as the first person you know who claims to prefer Pay-to-Win. If the entry point to the best gear is playing the same content over and over again 20+ hours per week, then I would really prefer just to buy the gear for real money.

The game I have played that I would categorize as Pay to Win would be Age of Empires Online, and I'm perfectly fine with that.  It's a really good game.

The game I most wanted to be Pay to Win is World of Warcraft. I never could break into the very top tier gear because I just couldn't do the time for raiding.

I too would love if I could pay real money to get to max level instantly with all the best gear.  Cost doesn't matter, I just don't actually want to play the games.  I just want to have the best stuff in the games I don't play.

El Psy Congroo

  BitterClinger

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/19/12
Posts: 208

2014 Watch List: World of Warships, ArcheAge

1/25/13 4:55:49 PM#4
Originally posted by kadepsyson
Originally posted by BitterClinger
In that case, I'd like to introduce myself as the first person you know who claims to prefer Pay-to-Win. If the entry point to the best gear is playing the same content over and over again 20+ hours per week, then I would really prefer just to buy the gear for real money.

I too would love if I could pay real money to get to max level instantly with all the best gear.  Cost doesn't matter, I just don't actually want to play the games.  I just want to have the best stuff in the games I don't play.

Well, you also don't want to make a useful contribution to the discussions you're not having by taking a concept to the absurd extremes.

Top Games Played JAN 2014: World of Warplanes, Guild Wars 2, World of Tanks

  kadepsyson

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/15/06
Posts: 1966

The doctors say his chances are 50/50...but there's only a 10% chance of that.

1/25/13 4:57:27 PM#5
Originally posted by BitterClinger
Originally posted by kadepsyson
Originally posted by BitterClinger
In that case, I'd like to introduce myself as the first person you know who claims to prefer Pay-to-Win. If the entry point to the best gear is playing the same content over and over again 20+ hours per week, then I would really prefer just to buy the gear for real money.

I too would love if I could pay real money to get to max level instantly with all the best gear.  Cost doesn't matter, I just don't actually want to play the games.  I just want to have the best stuff in the games I don't play.

Well, you also don't want to make a useful contribution to the discussions you're not having by taking a concept to the absurd extremes.

Alright.  Then at what point does paying for a game accomplishment instead of accomplishing it in a game by playing become absurd?

El Psy Congroo

  Blasphim

Novice Member

Joined: 8/31/11
Posts: 347

Darkness is Death's ignorance, and the Devil's time

1/25/13 5:00:31 PM#6


Originally posted by kadepsyson

Originally posted by BitterClinger

Originally posted by kadepsyson

Originally posted by BitterClinger In that case, I'd like to introduce myself as the first person you know who claims to prefer Pay-to-Win. If the entry point to the best gear is playing the same content over and over again 20+ hours per week, then I would really prefer just to buy the gear for real money.
I too would love if I could pay real money to get to max level instantly with all the best gear.  Cost doesn't matter, I just don't actually want to play the games.  I just want to have the best stuff in the games I don't play.
Well, you also don't want to make a useful contribution to the discussions you're not having by taking a concept to the absurd extremes.
Alright.  Then at what point does paying for a game accomplishment instead of accomplishing it in a game by playing become absurd?

I am also interested in this definition, please elaborate

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5659

1/25/13 5:07:17 PM#7
Originally posted by kadepsyson
Originally posted by BitterClinger
Originally posted by kadepsyson
Originally posted by BitterClinger
In that case, I'd like to introduce myself as the first person you know who claims to prefer Pay-to-Win. If the entry point to the best gear is playing the same content over and over again 20+ hours per week, then I would really prefer just to buy the gear for real money.

I too would love if I could pay real money to get to max level instantly with all the best gear.  Cost doesn't matter, I just don't actually want to play the games.  I just want to have the best stuff in the games I don't play.

Well, you also don't want to make a useful contribution to the discussions you're not having by taking a concept to the absurd extremes.

Alright.  Then at what point does paying for a game accomplishment instead of accomplishing it in a game by playing become absurd?

At what point does having to repeat content through raid and dungeon locks become absurd?  What qualifies as an absurd activity in gaming and what does not?  What qualifies as absurd payments and what does not?  Who gets to define that for the rest of us?

I think a mind wipe so people could play an mmo like it was their first time again, would be easier to build than a new mmo people here would actually like. - DamonVile

  BitterClinger

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/19/12
Posts: 208

2014 Watch List: World of Warships, ArcheAge

1/25/13 5:11:18 PM#8
Originally posted by kadepsyson
Originally posted by BitterClinger
Originally posted by kadepsyson
Originally posted by BitterClinger
In that case, I'd like to introduce myself as the first person you know who claims to prefer Pay-to-Win. If the entry point to the best gear is playing the same content over and over again 20+ hours per week, then I would really prefer just to buy the gear for real money.

I too would love if I could pay real money to get to max level instantly with all the best gear.  Cost doesn't matter, I just don't actually want to play the games.  I just want to have the best stuff in the games I don't play.

Well, you also don't want to make a useful contribution to the discussions you're not having by taking a concept to the absurd extremes.

Alright.  Then at what point does paying for a game accomplishment instead of accomplishing it in a game by playing become absurd?

Whoa, wait a minute.  Game accomplishments?  I thought I was talking about gear. If I have Tier X Gear, and I have the accomplishment for killing Tier X+1 Boss, but I don't get my Tier X+1 Gear because the boss doesn't drop it or I lose the roll; what's the problem with me paying money for a "magic widget" that will upgrade my Tier X Gear to Tier X+1 Gear? Hey, happened to me all the time in WOW, and I still enjoyed the game a lot; but it would've been nice if I could combine my current gear with an accomplishment to upgrade to the next step.

No one is talking about levels. Though, I admit that I have played a game (Pirates of the Burning Sea) where I really wanted to buy my way to something less than max level.  That was mainly because the game is dying, the lowbie areas are deserted (and I mean actually deserted, not "GW2 deserted"), and the only action left in the game is at max level.

Top Games Played JAN 2014: World of Warplanes, Guild Wars 2, World of Tanks

  kadepsyson

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/15/06
Posts: 1966

The doctors say his chances are 50/50...but there's only a 10% chance of that.

1/25/13 5:14:22 PM#9
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by kadepsyson
Originally posted by BitterClinger
Originally posted by kadepsyson
Originally posted by BitterClinger
In that case, I'd like to introduce myself as the first person you know who claims to prefer Pay-to-Win. If the entry point to the best gear is playing the same content over and over again 20+ hours per week, then I would really prefer just to buy the gear for real money.

I too would love if I could pay real money to get to max level instantly with all the best gear.  Cost doesn't matter, I just don't actually want to play the games.  I just want to have the best stuff in the games I don't play.

Well, you also don't want to make a useful contribution to the discussions you're not having by taking a concept to the absurd extremes.

Alright.  Then at what point does paying for a game accomplishment instead of accomplishing it in a game by playing become absurd?

At what point does having to repeat content through raid and dungeon locks become absurd?  What qualifies as an absurd activity in gaming and what does not?  What qualifies as absurd payments and what does not?  Who gets to define that for the rest of us?

That point for me was in 2005, when I discovered something I preferred to themeparks.

El Psy Congroo

  DamonVile

Elite Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4633

1/25/13 5:15:51 PM#10

Well to side step the stupid argument that's about to happen...

 

Pay to win originaly didn't litterally mean you pay money and win. It meant you are able to buy advantages in game with real money.

Better gear, do more damage, have more health ect ect.

People have confused the meaning now so that some will argue if you have any chance to lose it's not pay to win...because you didn't win.

There are many things that people will include in p2w like xp boosts that don't actually help you win in a pvp match but most of the time those complaining are just doing it because someone has something they don't. It really doesn't have anything to do with an actual advantage.

My personal opinion on p2w is if a game goes down that road I stop playing. But it does have to actually have items that quallify as pay 2 win, not just a complainer on the forums.

People are like cats. When they die, you get a new one.

  Azoth

Elite Member

Joined: 7/08/04
Posts: 483

1/25/13 5:18:36 PM#11

Wartune and Atlantica Online are two P2W games that comes to mind.

  kadepsyson

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/15/06
Posts: 1966

The doctors say his chances are 50/50...but there's only a 10% chance of that.

1/25/13 5:20:31 PM#12
"Pay to Win?  There's an app for that."

El Psy Congroo

  Slampig

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/29/03
Posts: 2388

Whatever you do, do NOT speak ill of Asheron's Call 2...

1/25/13 5:29:37 PM#13
Originally posted by kadepsyson
Originally posted by BitterClinger
Originally posted by kadepsyson
Originally posted by BitterClinger
In that case, I'd like to introduce myself as the first person you know who claims to prefer Pay-to-Win. If the entry point to the best gear is playing the same content over and over again 20+ hours per week, then I would really prefer just to buy the gear for real money.

I too would love if I could pay real money to get to max level instantly with all the best gear.  Cost doesn't matter, I just don't actually want to play the games.  I just want to have the best stuff in the games I don't play.

Well, you also don't want to make a useful contribution to the discussions you're not having by taking a concept to the absurd extremes.

Alright.  Then at what point does paying for a game accomplishment instead of accomplishing it in a game by playing become absurd?

The fact that this exchange is going on at all is absurd. We are talking about GAMES, if one person wants to pay for whatever that is that persons own deal. If another person would rather play the game and get the items that way, that is THAT persons bag. Why try to force either perspective down someone elses throat?

MMO gamers need to understand that people are different. Your playstyle might not be my play style, so what...

That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!

  kadepsyson

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/15/06
Posts: 1966

The doctors say his chances are 50/50...but there's only a 10% chance of that.

1/25/13 5:36:29 PM#14
Originally posted by Slampig
Originally posted by kadepsyson
Originally posted by BitterClinger
Originally posted by kadepsyson
Originally posted by BitterClinger
In that case, I'd like to introduce myself as the first person you know who claims to prefer Pay-to-Win. If the entry point to the best gear is playing the same content over and over again 20+ hours per week, then I would really prefer just to buy the gear for real money.

I too would love if I could pay real money to get to max level instantly with all the best gear.  Cost doesn't matter, I just don't actually want to play the games.  I just want to have the best stuff in the games I don't play.

Well, you also don't want to make a useful contribution to the discussions you're not having by taking a concept to the absurd extremes.

Alright.  Then at what point does paying for a game accomplishment instead of accomplishing it in a game by playing become absurd?

The fact that this exchange is going on at all is absurd. We are talking about GAMES, if one person wants to pay for whatever that is that persons own deal. If another person would rather play the game and get the items that way, that is THAT persons bag. Why try to force either perspective down someone elses throat?

MMO gamers need to understand that people are different. Your playstyle might not be my play style, so what...

So you wouldn't mind if in the MULTIPLAYER games, such as this site is dedicated to, someone paid a large sum of money that you couldn't afford to make their character invulnerable forever - and then PVP'd you repeatedly?

You know, that's his playstyle, and you're fine with it.

I was actually trying to have a discussion, being as this is a forum and all, rather than shove anything anywhere.  The reason for this discussion on this forum is that these games are multiplayer and usually feature player interaction.  Meaning what one player has or does can affect another in the game.

That help?

El Psy Congroo

  rpg_gunner

Novice Member

Joined: 12/20/12
Posts: 75

"Disasterrific!"

1/27/13 9:19:09 PM#15

Aren't most MMORPG's using this format?

 

Be a member by paying a monthly subscription which allows you to use premium items you get from drops. Maybe pay cash for special armor or weapons giving you godlike stats. Sometimes it becomes a necessity since 1 fully funded hero could take the place of approximately 5 unfunded ones during quests.

  emperorwings

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/25/06
Posts: 1339

1/27/13 9:21:28 PM#16
Conquor Online example of pay to win

This isn't a signature, you just think it is.

  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

1/27/13 9:25:03 PM#17
i always saw pay to win as more you could spend real money on items that were "better" than anything found normally ingame.. its been awhile so can't remember any examples but i do know many private servers for games like lineage 2 you could donate money and get insanely powerfull items that basically destroyed anything. But yes generally if you can buy any top equipment in a CS its generally considered pay to win..

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  thinktank001

Elite Member

Joined: 12/13/08
Posts: 1842

1/27/13 9:53:40 PM#18
Originally posted by danmax67

I see this term all the  time.  I think I know what Pay to Win means in theory, but I'm not sure I know what it means in reality.  I don't know anybody that claims to prefer a Pay to Win game, and I'm not aware of any games that represent themselves as Pay to Win.

 

So, I ask - what are some examples of Pay to Win games and what game do you think is the most egregious example of Pay to Win?

 

All cash shop based games are P2W.  Any game that allows players to purchase items to give themselves an advantage falls under this category, and all cash shop games are designed to allow players to purchase content.      

 

  User Deleted
1/27/13 9:57:20 PM#19
Originally posted by DamonVile

Well to side step the stupid argument that's about to happen...

 

Pay to win originaly didn't litterally mean you pay money and win. It meant you are able to buy advantages in game with real money.

Better gear, do more damage, have more health ect ect.

People have confused the meaning now so that some will argue if you have any chance to lose it's not pay to win...because you didn't win.

There are many things that people will include in p2w like xp boosts that don't actually help you win in a pvp match but most of the time those complaining are just doing it because someone has something they don't. It really doesn't have anything to do with an actual advantage.

My personal opinion on p2w is if a game goes down that road I stop playing. But it does have to actually have items that quallify as pay 2 win, not just a complainer on the forums.

No, this was never the definition of pay to win though it was a common line used by people who were anti-F2P. Everything you list are examples of cash shop items, which are needed to fund the game.

A good example of P2W is the post above by Aerowyn

  VoreDock

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/12/12
Posts: 112

1/27/13 10:05:40 PM#20
Originally posted by Aerowyn
i always saw pay to win as more you could spend real money on items that were "better" than anything found normally ingame.. its been awhile so can't remember any examples but i do know many private servers for games like lineage 2 you could donate money and get insanely powerfull items that basically destroyed anything. But yes generally if you can buy any top equipment in a CS its generally considered pay to win..

this is the core ( the roten core ) of what a pay to win game is .

 

a game where you gan buy boots is not pay to win  as long as they expire after say 1 to 3 hours . 

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