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General Discussion Forum » The Pub at MMORPG.COM » Optional Open World PVP

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132 posts found
  jjmuggs

Novice Member

Joined: 11/25/12
Posts: 9

1/25/13 2:26:12 PM#21
There will never be a AAA open world PvP game thats successfull, not now, not next year, not ever. As soon as players many many moons ago had a choice to engage or not engage in that kind of gameplay the player base overwhelmingly chose not to. Areana's...sure. Special PvP zones ...sure.  Open world full loot...never gonna happen. Its a niche market and there are small time games that cater to such. But the huge majority of the playerbase wants nothing to do with it, because if it did...every mmo made since UO would have had it.
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17899

1/25/13 2:33:33 PM#22
Originally posted by jjmuggs
There will never be a AAA open world PvP game thats successfull, not now, not next year, not ever. As soon as players many many moons ago had a choice to engage or not engage in that kind of gameplay the player base overwhelmingly chose not to. Areana's...sure. Special PvP zones ...sure.  Open world full loot...never gonna happen. Its a niche market and there are small time games that cater to such. But the huge majority of the playerbase wants nothing to do with it, because if it did...every mmo made since UO would have had it.

How about PS2? Isn't it doing pretty well, and it is open world pvp.

  NaughtyP

Novice Member

Joined: 12/02/11
Posts: 795

1/25/13 2:49:34 PM#23

I was always a fan of the overt/covert way SWG handled PvP.

  • If you are overt, you are fair game and show up as red.
  • If you are covert, you show up as neutral and cannot be attacked
  • If you are covert, but attack an overt enemy (or help an overt ally), you've earned yourself a temporary enemy flag (TEF - flagged overt for X minutes).

While this does lead to TEF wars, it also makes a lot of sense. When you think about it, guerilla warfare, spying, and all of those other fun war games are legitimate tactics.

Plus this way you can mix PvP players with PvE players without needing to convert zones into specific special areas like PvE only or PvP only. It makes the game world bigger.

Well, that's just how I feel. I always thought SWG's PvP was the most elegant since you could play whatever way you wanted.

Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.

  kadepsyson

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/15/06
Posts: 1963

The doctors say his chances are 50/50...but there's only a 10% chance of that.

1/25/13 2:51:44 PM#24
Originally posted by jjmuggs
There will never be a AAA open world PvP game thats successfull, not now, not next year, not ever. As soon as players many many moons ago had a choice to engage or not engage in that kind of gameplay the player base overwhelmingly chose not to. Areana's...sure. Special PvP zones ...sure.  Open world full loot...never gonna happen. Its a niche market and there are small time games that cater to such. But the huge majority of the playerbase wants nothing to do with it, because if it did...every mmo made since UO would have had it.

So you haven't heard of the MMO that is both older than wow, and has grown in subscribers every year since release?  You know, the one that includes open world PVP with loot without resorting to crap arenas.

El Psy Congroo

  MMOExposed

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 5734

1/25/13 3:34:16 PM#25
the lack of Freedom to not PvP in a Sandbox MMO, which is all about Freedom. the Irony

  Larsa

Novice Member

Joined: 2/14/04
Posts: 992

1/25/13 5:28:01 PM#26


Originally posted by Reklaw

...You step into the world being neutral, no other player can attack you. Futher ingame while having developed new skills or raised level you get the option to be aligned to a certain faction. At the base game there are only 3 factions, two of them are constantly at war with each other (lets call them F1 and F2). The third will be the neutral faction F3. Align to them and you will not be attacked by other players but enjoy the PVE and all the other social aspects of the game. You might be excluded from gathering precious resources or "loot" but that's simply the price to pay for living at peace.

But even though you aligned yourself with F3 you stil are free to align yourself to F1 or F2, same goes for those in F1 and F2 can place themselfs into F3. Of course it should have a timer, a 24hour timer should suite nice and makes you really think before you might choose your faction.


 

I hope you're aware that the PvP-ers will immediately abuse your mechanic. Almost every PvP-er will have a "neutral" alt as packmule for safe item storage. Many will be dual-boxing and your F1 or F2 player will have a neutral F3 alt on /autofollow.

I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.

  Slapshot1188

Elite Member

Joined: 5/06/07
Posts: 3991

1/25/13 5:36:59 PM#27
Originally posted by NaughtyP

I was always a fan of the overt/covert way SWG handled PvP.

  • If you are overt, you are fair game and show up as red.
  • If you are covert, you show up as neutral and cannot be attacked
  • If you are covert, but attack an overt enemy (or help an overt ally), you've earned yourself a temporary enemy flag (TEF - flagged overt for X minutes).

While this does lead to TEF wars, it also makes a lot of sense. When you think about it, guerilla warfare, spying, and all of those other fun war games are legitimate tactics.

Plus this way you can mix PvP players with PvE players without needing to convert zones into specific special areas like PvE only or PvP only. It makes the game world bigger.

Well, that's just how I feel. I always thought SWG's PvP was the most elegant since you could play whatever way you wanted.

I always thought the whole overt/covert flag ruined SWG.   I mean... really?  The guy standing 5 feet from me now has his "covert' flag up when 20 minutes ago he was killing my Imperial Allies in the same spot?  And now I can't do anything even though it's the same guy?  

 

Talk about an anti-sandbox mechanism...

 

Sure guerilla warfare and 'spying" are legitimate tactics but when you KNOW the other guy is a spy and he was just killing people a few minutes ago, but now you cannot do anything but sit and let him spy.... is just a bad.. BAD mechanism.

 

 

"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

  Reklaw

Elite Member

Joined: 1/07/06
Posts: 5745

The adult I am takes care of most things real life. However my inner-child is a GAMER!!

 
OP  1/26/13 1:33:11 PM#28
Originally posted by Slapshot1188
Originally posted by NaughtyP

I was always a fan of the overt/covert way SWG handled PvP.

  • If you are overt, you are fair game and show up as red.
  • If you are covert, you show up as neutral and cannot be attacked
  • If you are covert, but attack an overt enemy (or help an overt ally), you've earned yourself a temporary enemy flag (TEF - flagged overt for X minutes).

While this does lead to TEF wars, it also makes a lot of sense. When you think about it, guerilla warfare, spying, and all of those other fun war games are legitimate tactics.

Plus this way you can mix PvP players with PvE players without needing to convert zones into specific special areas like PvE only or PvP only. It makes the game world bigger.

Well, that's just how I feel. I always thought SWG's PvP was the most elegant since you could play whatever way you wanted.

I always thought the whole overt/covert flag ruined SWG.   I mean... really?  The guy standing 5 feet from me now has his "covert' flag up when 20 minutes ago he was killing my Imperial Allies in the same spot?  And now I can't do anything even though it's the same guy?  

 

Talk about an anti-sandbox mechanism...

 

Sure guerilla warfare and 'spying" are legitimate tactics but when you KNOW the other guy is a spy and he was just killing people a few minutes ago, but now you cannot do anything but sit and let him spy.... is just a bad.. BAD mechanism.

 

 

Why do you feel it's a anti-sandbox mechanism?

I mean don't we have thousands of PVP games already where you are never safe cause that's what already is done in multiplayer games. Shouldn't MMORPG's go far beyond what we already have especially considering players to have a choice in how they want to play a sandbox game.

And in all fairness since the mechanic doesn't atract you. You are free to not to play that game and pick some of the forced pvp oriented sandbox games, which like your opinion is to me a anti-sandbox mechanic cause nothing should be forced in sandbox, we have themepark games and regular multiplayer games for that.

I also bet that you might get allot more people willing to try PVP even if they are more into PVE due to it being a choice.

Again pure my opinion based on my own experiance so don't read as solid fact.

  Jemcrystal

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/02/08
Posts: 1153

Let em put a slave ring thru u're nose u're prob not going to like where they're taking you. Think.

1/26/13 1:43:36 PM#29

I hate PvP because PvP'ers cry for the game makers to gimp PvE rogues, archers, and rangers until we can't hit a bunny straight!!!  How would you fix the cry babbies that ruined my game???  

 

*mad bro?

Very!

Playing FFXIV-ARR NA:Faerie. Guild Mytical Mourning - Rhett.

  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4309

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

1/26/13 5:05:21 PM#30

I prefer the flag system, but one where you can't immediately turn it off.  Lets you pvp when you want and not pvp when you want.

Flag it on, cant' turn it off for an hour or a day or so to reduce the abuse.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  kadepsyson

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/15/06
Posts: 1963

The doctors say his chances are 50/50...but there's only a 10% chance of that.

1/26/13 5:08:39 PM#31
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

I prefer the flag system, but one where you can't immediately turn it off.  Lets you pvp when you want and not pvp when you want.

Flag it on, cant' turn it off for an hour or a day or so to reduce the abuse.

Would suck to get surrounded by peopel who weren't flagged, while you are flagged, and just wait for them to be ready to instantly slaughter you once they flag themselves at once and stab you.

Then again, I do prefer a system of you risk more to earn more.  Rather than extremely artificial systems that don't fit within the setting of the game at all.

El Psy Congroo

  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4309

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

1/26/13 5:16:19 PM#32
Originally posted by kadepsyson
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

I prefer the flag system, but one where you can't immediately turn it off.  Lets you pvp when you want and not pvp when you want.

Flag it on, cant' turn it off for an hour or a day or so to reduce the abuse.

Would suck to get surrounded by peopel who weren't flagged, while you are flagged, and just wait for them to be ready to instantly slaughter you once they flag themselves at once and stab you.

Then again, I do prefer a system of you risk more to earn more.  Rather than extremely artificial systems that don't fit within the setting of the game at all.

Sometimes yes.  But it sucks to be surrounded by people who want to pvp when all you want to do is mine that ore.  Or to have no pvp at all in your game of preference.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5352

I dare you to pin a label on me.

1/26/13 5:38:23 PM#33
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

I prefer the flag system, but one where you can't immediately turn it off.  Lets you pvp when you want and not pvp when you want.

Flag it on, cant' turn it off for an hour or a day or so to reduce the abuse.

Naw, man, flagging systems are stupid and as exploitable as neutral factions. Even worse, I think. With that system, I could turn my PvP flag on and log off to wait for the timer. When I log back in I can unflag myself at will.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4309

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

1/26/13 5:39:58 PM#34
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

I prefer the flag system, but one where you can't immediately turn it off.  Lets you pvp when you want and not pvp when you want.

Flag it on, cant' turn it off for an hour or a day or so to reduce the abuse.

Naw, man, flagging systems are stupid and as exploitable as neutral factions. Even worse, I think. With that system, I could turn my PvP flag on and log off to wait for the timer. When I log back in I can unflag myself at will.

But you can't pvp while your logged off so the people are safe from you.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5352

I dare you to pin a label on me.

1/26/13 5:43:50 PM#35
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

I prefer the flag system, but one where you can't immediately turn it off.  Lets you pvp when you want and not pvp when you want.

Flag it on, cant' turn it off for an hour or a day or so to reduce the abuse.

Naw, man, flagging systems are stupid and as exploitable as neutral factions. Even worse, I think. With that system, I could turn my PvP flag on and log off to wait for the timer. When I log back in I can unflag myself at will.

But you can't pvp while your logged off so the people are safe from you.

I... think you missed what my point or do you expect the flag to reset when someone logs off? Because that would be a whole new bag of trouble.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4309

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

1/26/13 5:47:10 PM#36
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

I prefer the flag system, but one where you can't immediately turn it off.  Lets you pvp when you want and not pvp when you want.

Flag it on, cant' turn it off for an hour or a day or so to reduce the abuse.

Naw, man, flagging systems are stupid and as exploitable as neutral factions. Even worse, I think. With that system, I could turn my PvP flag on and log off to wait for the timer. When I log back in I can unflag myself at will.

But you can't pvp while your logged off so the people are safe from you.

I... think you missed what my point or do you expect the flag to reset when someone logs off? Because that would be a whole new bag of trouble.

No I wouldn't expect the flag to reset.  The system prevents people from pkng someone and then immediately unflagging to prevent retaliation. 

Should you decide to pvp you are fair game for a set amount of time after your flag and/or kill.  Anyone that wants to pvp can, if you don't want to pvp than don't flag, or be aware that you will be flagged for awhile even after your target is dead.

 

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  GrayGhost79

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/30/08
Posts: 4885

1/26/13 5:48:55 PM#37

One take on this thats being proposed for a "project" I know of is a split in combat and Professions/classes. One of the reasons I and others like this idea is because it allows for Open world PvP by consent. 

Soldier would be a profession but in no way impacts how you fight, what weapons or armor you use etc. Soldier as your profession is how you earn gold and such in game. You come across an enemy soldier you can attack them freely but you aren't allowed to attack civilians. You get rewarded/paid for your enemy kills, the reward/amount is dependent on a number of factors to prevent or at least limit exploiting. If your "nation" sieges another and you participate you are rewarded/paid based on your performance. 

 

Explorer's get paid/rewarded by private collectors, museums, cartographers, and etc. for places they've discovered, how much of it they've explored, finding rare artifacts and treasures, etc. 

 

Thieves work for guilds to get paid/rewarded. You can take jobs from clients, the thieves guild, etc but you can also freelance and get rewarded/paid for pulling off independant dangerous, difficult, and/or big jobs. There is the possibility of them being able to attack and steal from soldiers and members of rival theives guild. If this comes to pass they would be attackable by guards from any nation. 

 

Professions/classes dictate your source of income as well as how you interact with the world but in no way shape or form effects your combat. 

 

This unfortunately is as much detail as I can go into about it. 

  danmax67

Novice Member

Joined: 10/14/05
Posts: 30

1/26/13 5:52:30 PM#38
The problem is, in most of these games, open world pvp in large part cannot be good due to the structure of games.  In most games, my level 643 whatever will kill your level 12 adventurer every time without any risk to you whatsoever.  This results in a situation that is simply not good gameplay.
  dumpcat

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/06/12
Posts: 212

1/26/13 6:33:44 PM#39
The flagging system in SWG was great. It worked well. When you unflaggef it took time to kick in. So you could not just unflag to avoid being attacked. Also the player bounty system kept you in danger of being attacked - flagged or not.
  User Deleted
1/26/13 6:45:03 PM#40
Originally posted by Quirhid

... People will exploit the crap out of everything they can when the stakes are high. That's why the rules should be as few and simple as possible.

That's why I pvp in Chivalry now. 

 

It's hard to get it right in mmorpgs. They either become instanced battlegrounds, which is fine for a lot of people, or exploited hack-fests like Mortal Online or Darkfall.

 

The instanced battlegrounds become boring to me because they mainly revolve around gear earned through grinding the same events over and over till your eyes bleed. And if there is factional imbalance, then it will be a longer, harder, more frustrating road to get "there" to the point when you have ground out better gear than most other pvpers to make yourself one of the 1337.

 

The MO and DF type of games get dominated by cliques of cheaters (who will also be good at twitch based pvp -- not to take away from their skill). So it's not just cheaters and skilled pvpers the average player is up against, but skilled cheaters. I'm not saying all the best pvpers in those games are cheaters, but I'll bet a lot of them are. That's frustrating for average players who like to play the whole game and explore rather than park their character at a "blood wall" or tucked away somewhere else macroing skills up 23 hours a day. In a full-loot pvp game with cliques and the "average" players will eventually leave and there will be a tiny population of like-minded individuals left in that game. That's good for them if the developer can make enough money to keep their game going. 

 

I'm not arguing that ffa pvp sandboxes should be watered down or dumbed down for average players (like I have become). I am saying that if an ffa pvp sandbox can be made that has room for all types of players and is not an exploit-cheatfest, that would be awesome. 

 

Hopefully, games like that will be coming out soon enough.

 

 

 

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