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General Discussion Forum » The Pub at MMORPG.COM » F2P and monetization

11 posts found
  Wighty

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/08
Posts: 563

 
OP  1/16/13 12:11:58 PM#1

As a long time gamer (atari, colecovision) and pre-first generation MMO player (Legends of Kesmai, Kingdom of Dragkkar, Neverwinter) I am a huge advocate against F2P and everything that it stands for.

 

Without trying to beat the dead horse argument of F2P vs. subscriptions I would rather just focus on why F2P is evil and will eventually get worse.

First and foremost it completely dilutes the level of quality we see in games, companies will simply churn out crap that we as gamers have to sift through to find our diamond in the rough.

 

Secondly it creates a new hurdle for developers which can cause a) a quality game to fall on it's face b) cause a game to not get published because it has such an unpredictable revenue model.

 

Now while I don't want you all to feel I am sitting here trying to pontificate, blurting out my opinion like so many of us do I would rather share something I had come across (which may have been shared once before. This is a video from August 2012 Europe GDC, it is long but a very interesting view.

http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1016417/-100-000-Whales-An

 

While this video is primarily talking about the Chinese market, this presentation is in front of "western developers" and discuses how to menetize the crap out of players.

 

You may sit there and tout "I won't play P2W games" or "They could never get away with <insert cliche> here" it's not about that... It's about identifying the HOT BUTTONS and then monetizing it... In China it happens to be hyper competative psychology. There is a secret forumla out there, it just has not been discovered yet.

 

As a window into this presenters personality he can also be seen here in a video discussing RMT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWvHcoqru7I

 

While many of you may have seen the above video, it just goes to show you that all that matters is monetizing. This guy basically got his start building a business gold farming and then created a company to legitimize what he is doing...

This is sort of like someone moonshining, and when the heat gets turned up, they go legit. (sorry it's one of my favorite shows now)

Again you can still sit there and say "well this won't affect me" etc.

 

But look on the very front page of our beloved MMORPG.com and you will find not one but TWO R2Games titles Wartune and Broken Realm smattered all over giving away keys, ads etc. SO we are not immune to this in the "west" 

 

Most games today are NOT being developed for a passion of gaming (or gamers) they are designed to be money sinks and we have no one to blame but ourselves as gamers.

While the demograph for games have eveolved from the nerd to just about anyone with a computer, the playerbase has devolved into this cesspool of cheaper, faster, overly entitled brats that thinks everything should be free. They don't want to be immersed in a single game.. they want to steam roll content (someone coined the phrase Content Locusts) and then move on to the next... or have more than one account in one game so they can either 2-3-4 box, bot, mule, etc... and heaven forbid they have to pay a sub to do so. It's this way of thinking that is causing the industry to slowly implode.

 

I am hoping the indy revolution will help create some new opportunities in gaming, small houses that are building niche product that can opperate on less than 100k subs and not "fail" like the McDonnalds mentality player states because a game doesn't have 1000000000000 subs.

I doubt you can expect to see anything really good come out of "AAA" companies anymore because the gamers have created such a crap atmosphere for which developers now need to subcome to. Unlike indies they need the millions of subs, or need to monetize crap like "hotbars" <WTF?!!>.

 

All I have to say is be very careful what you wish and hope for because it may actually come true and we will all suffer for it.

What are your other Hobbies?

Gaming is Dirt Cheap compared to this...

  Salio69

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/29/06
Posts: 420

1/16/13 1:19:23 PM#2

yea F2P pretty much ruined MMOs for me. its no longer about skills, or working with others, its all about wallet warrioring.

at first i thought maybe im just getting older and games are fading out of me, since i had been playing since the 90s. than i realized i still played a ton of games. i still play single player games and i still love playing multiplayer games, especially those with my wife and/or friends. lets face it, multiplayer games are pretty close to mmos.

i started wondering, well whats the difference between what i play now and what i used to play?

then it came to me: almost every single mmo i ever played either became some piece of shit free 2 play game with items that made people a bazillion times stronger then a non-wallet warrior -or- every mmo i used to play stayed p2p but introduced cash shop items that made most items way better in stats and looks then what normally drops, thus reducing game play to pretty much reducing it to breaking out ye old wallet still.

i remember playing games like eden eternal and ragnarok online. watching people walk around with these extremely good gears. i asked them: "wow, how did you get that?" to my amazement still almost always answered "well it was hard, it cost like 200 dollars in boxes to open but i knew i would get it."

thats when i first noticed that f2p games with those random items are like gambling addictions. instead of popping a dollar into the slot machine to see if you got yourself another 10 dollars, you pop in 5 dollars to get a box to see if you get some very rare peice of equipment. in some cases, serveral hundreds of dollars.

before it was: "oh wow, lets go kill that dragon, he has a chance to drop daggers of infinite damage. oh man didnt drop this time, was lots of fun though, see you guys later when he respawns in 48 hours."

now its: "oh damn didnt get my daggers of infinite damage out of that box"

insert another 5 dollars: "oh damn didnt get my daggers of infinite damage out of that box"

insert another 5 dollars: "oh damn didnt get my daggers of infinite damage out of that box"

who the hell wants to play that game?

i've heard many times over the years: "mmos are finally dying." nope they arent dying, they are just being ganked, raped, and horrifyingly mutalated.

i can honestly say the golden era of mmos are over. i have no doubt that a lot of vets would agree.

my advice to the op is to just do what i did: buy some multiplayer games because f2p is here to stay as long as people are willing to shall out tons of cash for more power and status.

  Wighty

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/08
Posts: 563

 
OP  1/16/13 1:48:21 PM#3

I understand full well that F2P is here to stay...

 

For the life of me though it is the attitude and entitlement of the modern "western" gamer with their expectations at such a high level of demand yet unwillingness to bend on cretain issues.

 

I know full well game companies need to monetize the games even games WITH subs now have cash shops... The price of a sub hasn't changed in 10 years and the player poll (with the exception of a very select few games) has not grown at the same rate of inflation. So in a lot of cases you spend your $15 a mo, and then you can buy the fancy horse or little pet for extra money.

 

I would not be opposed to games subsidizing revenue by using <tasteful> adds in game... Lets say you are in a post apoc MMO and there is a PEPSI billboard... well PEPSI may have paid $xxxxxx to have that billboard there for a period of time with the option to renew... if anything that would add to immersion as in a city you see billboards everywhere... It's called product placement... I believe Jeep has a special Call of Duty or Modern Warfare version of the Jeep IRL. Brilliant.

 

Western companies aren't as bad... You may be restricted with Races, classes, content, lvl before you need to open your wallet... But look at just about ANY Korean F2P game where you can have an awesome item... yet now you need special tokens to add +1, +2 - - - +10 to said items in order for that "raid drop weapon" to be worth a damn. 

 

It's these subtleties that are killing it... And what are we talking about here... the absolute CHEAPEST form of entertainment out there... I mean yeah I can do all the cliche "movie ticket, pack of cig's, red bull" comparissons but those things are all sacred and accepted by society... Gaming???????? How the fk dare they expect me to pay!!!!!

 

I for one would be happy to pay a higher sub for a great game that is developed for the purpose of gaming and not as some money trap where you get to a point then hit a wall.

 

For those who sit there professing their love for f2p because a sub is too expensive, well they contribute NOTHING to gaming anyhow and as far as I am concerned a just a leech and burden on a server, so they would not be missed regardless of the game model. Unfortunately the small dog barks the loudest (sorry cliche again) and the vocal minority prevails.

What are your other Hobbies?

Gaming is Dirt Cheap compared to this...

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

1/16/13 2:24:33 PM#4
Originally posted by Wighty

As a long time gamer (atari, colecovision) and pre-first generation MMO player (Legends of Kesmai, Kingdom of Dragkkar, Neverwinter) I am a huge advocate against F2P and everything that it stands for.

WOW .. you play Kingdom of Drakkar (it is drakkar, not dragkkar) too! I have not met another soul playing that game here yet.

Did you start when it was still on MPGnet? I remember i was playing that and it costed like $2 an hour.

In any case, i played a mentalist then ... and i still remember a bunch of friends/guildie took me to get a chipper staff.

  Wighty

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/08
Posts: 563

 
OP  1/16/13 2:30:45 PM#5
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Wighty

As a long time gamer (atari, colecovision) and pre-first generation MMO player (Legends of Kesmai, Kingdom of Dragkkar, Neverwinter) I am a huge advocate against F2P and everything that it stands for.

WOW .. you play Kingdom of Drakkar (it is drakkar, not dragkkar) too! I have not met another soul playing that game here yet.

Did you start when it was still on MPGnet? I remember i was playing that and it costed like $2 an hour.

In any case, i played a mentalist then ... and i still remember a bunch of friends/guildie took me to get a chipper staff.

Yeah played that game when it was by the hour... spent a small fortune on it... I remember just rolling a single character for hours just to get the right stats... Kesmai was very similar. 

What are your other Hobbies?

Gaming is Dirt Cheap compared to this...

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

1/16/13 2:33:16 PM#6
Originally posted by Wighty
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Wighty

As a long time gamer (atari, colecovision) and pre-first generation MMO player (Legends of Kesmai, Kingdom of Dragkkar, Neverwinter) I am a huge advocate against F2P and everything that it stands for.

WOW .. you play Kingdom of Drakkar (it is drakkar, not dragkkar) too! I have not met another soul playing that game here yet.

Did you start when it was still on MPGnet? I remember i was playing that and it costed like $2 an hour.

In any case, i played a mentalist then ... and i still remember a bunch of friends/guildie took me to get a chipper staff.

Yeah played that game when it was by the hour... spent a small fortune on it... I remember just rolling a single character for hours just to get the right stats... Kesmai was very similar. 

Yeah. I remember those days. Kesmai was on Compuserve, right? It was much more expensive and that was why i never got into it.

KoD is a pretty good game in its days.

  Arclan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/29/07
Posts: 1318

"Ideas are worthless. The only currency that holds any weight is the ability and drive to execute."

1/17/13 2:21:00 PM#7


Originally posted by Wighty
...While the demograph for games have eveolved from the nerd to just about anyone with a computer, the playerbase has devolved into this cesspool of cheaper, faster, overly entitled brats that thinks everything should be free. They don't want to be immersed in a single game.. they want to steam roll content (someone coined the phrase Content Locusts) and then move on to the next... or have more than one account in one game so they can either 2-3-4 box, bot, mule, etc... and heaven forbid they have to pay a sub to do so. It's this way of thinking that is causing the industry to slowly implode.

Yes, exactly! I hate FtP and have no plans to get on board with it. The masses are easily duped. A sucker is born every minute, after all. Fortunately, my RL is thriving thanks to the degenerated state of MMOs.

P L A N E T S I D E 1 is up !! check PS1 forum for link to current installer.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
video game company layoffs are twice the national average.

  Jacxolope

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/15/13
Posts: 743

1/17/13 3:22:45 PM#8

/signed

not much to add that has not been stated here.

  Superman0X

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/28/06
Posts: 956

1/17/13 3:23:51 PM#9
Originally posted by Wighty

As a long time gamer (atari, colecovision) and pre-first generation MMO player (Legends of Kesmai, Kingdom of Dragkkar, Neverwinter) I am a huge advocate against F2P and everything that it stands for.

 

I find this interesting.. because as a long time gamer ( I have played the same games as you) I am a huge advocate FOR F2P and everything that it stands for.

 

First, F2P allows monitization based on the quality of the game, not based on marketting and hype. It allows players to not pay for all the crap, just to find the diamond in the rough.

Second, it removes hurdles for the developer,  which can: a) Allow a quality game to succeed, b) allow a game to be published without requiring that the developer give up all rights.

 

As the OP has posted, there are videos that clearly show that developers can make the game their way, rather than sacraficing it to monitization by publisher (and giving up all rights). They only need to have a few 'whales' pay for the product, and they can make enough to not have to turn the game into another Farmville clone.

 

The market is slowly turning to F2P, where the customer is king. In a few years we can expect it to be similar to email services, where most are free (and better than ever), but where you can pay for the best available if you want it. F2P allows those that have a passion for games to innovate, and build the best games possible, without having to settle for making Call of Duty 11...

 

If you want a good example of what F2P allows, check out Path of Exile. Where they were able to make the game that they dreamed of, because they were using F2P.

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

1/17/13 4:11:46 PM#10
Originally posted by Superman0X
Originally posted by Wighty

As a long time gamer (atari, colecovision) and pre-first generation MMO player (Legends of Kesmai, Kingdom of Dragkkar, Neverwinter) I am a huge advocate against F2P and everything that it stands for.

 

I find this interesting.. because as a long time gamer ( I have played the same games as you) I am a huge advocate FOR F2P and everything that it stands for.

 

First, F2P allows monitization based on the quality of the game, not based on marketting and hype. It allows players to not pay for all the crap, just to find the diamond in the rough.

Second, it removes hurdles for the developer,  which can: a) Allow a quality game to succeed, b) allow a game to be published without requiring that the developer give up all rights.

 

As the OP has posted, there are videos that clearly show that developers can make the game their way, rather than sacraficing it to monitization by publisher (and giving up all rights). They only need to have a few 'whales' pay for the product, and they can make enough to not have to turn the game into another Farmville clone.

 

The market is slowly turning to F2P, where the customer is king. In a few years we can expect it to be similar to email services, where most are free (and better than ever), but where you can pay for the best available if you want it. F2P allows those that have a passion for games to innovate, and build the best games possible, without having to settle for making Call of Duty 11...

 

If you want a good example of what F2P allows, check out Path of Exile. Where they were able to make the game that they dreamed of, because they were using F2P.

 

I am also a long time gamer (back playing Drakkar) and i fully support F2P for all the reasons you have just mentioned and more.

At the same time, it is really moot of whether *I* support it or not. The trend is very clear. It has taken half ot the market already and still growing.

  Arclan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/29/07
Posts: 1318

"Ideas are worthless. The only currency that holds any weight is the ability and drive to execute."

1/17/13 4:31:27 PM#11


Originally posted by nariusseldon
I am also a long time gamer (back playing Drakkar) and i fully support F2P for all the reasons you have just mentioned and more.

At the same time, it is really moot of whether *I* support it or not. The trend is very clear. It has taken half ot the market already and still growing.


Consdering the mass layoffs, bankruptcies, mergers, etc. I agree the market is responding quite noticeably.

P L A N E T S I D E 1 is up !! check PS1 forum for link to current installer.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
video game company layoffs are twice the national average.