Originally posted by Trudge34

Originally posted by killion81
...

Exactly. Playing Tera it was impossible to talk, ask a question, give directions or shout out that we had an add or need to reposition a mob without opening myself up to taking a huge amount of damage. Being a tank, I couldn't type without taking down my block. So most of the runs were just zergs flying by the seat of my pants not really knowing what was going on. Much prefer to talk on the fly instead of taking 5 minutes of downtime to explain each different fight.

Raiding in EQ, I was always talking with a few of our other officers along with some key guildies that knew strats of the boss we were clearing towards. I'd be in tells or officer chat constantly with 3 or 4 people during the whole raid, plus doing my job as the main or secondary tank. Would prefer that much more than having to focus 100% on just the combat. 

What about a voice tool like teamspeak or mumble? Direct voice communication is faster and has a higher information density. For most guilds (or teams in other multiplayer games) using a voice tool for instances or pvp matches is mandatory.

Originally posted by LadyEuphei
I will take action combat over sit and press 123 123 over and over again any day. I love to dodge roll run and all that stuff. 

Yep, <dodge> 123 <roll>123 is WAY better than 123 123!!

Originally posted by dave6660

Originally posted by tom_gore

Originally posted by strangiato2112

I hope not.  I hate it.  

 

Bring back strategic combat.  Sick of GCD clickfests and the new 'action' trend on top of that.

What is this "strategic combat" you speak of?

It is a relic from a former era.  We can go visit it in a museum.

In all seriousness... I wouldn't mind seeing a few new games trying Final Fantasy Tactics style combat.

could you go into detail about that?

Originally posted by Inf666

Originally posted by Trudge34

Originally posted by killion81
...

Exactly. Playing Tera it was impossible to talk, ask a question, give directions or shout out that we had an add or need to reposition a mob without opening myself up to taking a huge amount of damage. Being a tank, I couldn't type without taking down my block. So most of the runs were just zergs flying by the seat of my pants not really knowing what was going on. Much prefer to talk on the fly instead of taking 5 minutes of downtime to explain each different fight.

Raiding in EQ, I was always talking with a few of our other officers along with some key guildies that knew strats of the boss we were clearing towards. I'd be in tells or officer chat constantly with 3 or 4 people during the whole raid, plus doing my job as the main or secondary tank. Would prefer that much more than having to focus 100% on just the combat. 

What about a voice tool like teamspeak or mumble? Direct voice communication is faster and has a higher information density. For most guilds (or teams in other multiplayer games) using a voice tool for instances or pvp matches is mandatory.

I do use Vent with my guild on EQ2. Problem is if you get like 3 or 4 people talking it's impossible to get a word in. Maybe in just a group dynamic it would be fine, but still. Plus I don't always want to be subject to having to listen, adjust my mic constantly and people's volumes or get stuck with the hyperactive 12 year old. I still prefer the chat window in game since I'm a fast typer, can listen to my music or whatever I want without worrying about hearing a conversation or having my ear drums blown out by a spaz on chat.

Originally posted by Trudge34

Originally posted by Inf666

Originally posted by Trudge34

Originally posted by killion81
...

Exactly. Playing Tera it was impossible to talk, ask a question, give directions or shout out that we had an add or need to reposition a mob without opening myself up to taking a huge amount of damage. Being a tank, I couldn't type without taking down my block. So most of the runs were just zergs flying by the seat of my pants not really knowing what was going on. Much prefer to talk on the fly instead of taking 5 minutes of downtime to explain each different fight.

Raiding in EQ, I was always talking with a few of our other officers along with some key guildies that knew strats of the boss we were clearing towards. I'd be in tells or officer chat constantly with 3 or 4 people during the whole raid, plus doing my job as the main or secondary tank. Would prefer that much more than having to focus 100% on just the combat. 

What about a voice tool like teamspeak or mumble? Direct voice communication is faster and has a higher information density. For most guilds (or teams in other multiplayer games) using a voice tool for instances or pvp matches is mandatory.

I do use Vent with my guild on EQ2. Problem is if you get like 3 or 4 people talking it's impossible to get a word in. Maybe in just a group dynamic it would be fine, but still. Plus I don't always want to be subject to having to listen, adjust my mic constantly and people's volumes or get stuck with the hyperactive 12 year old. I still prefer the chat window in game since I'm a fast typer, can listen to my music or whatever I want without worrying about hearing a conversation or having my ear drums blown out by a spaz on chat.

Voice chat has its large share of disadvantages.

For one, you cant really multi-channel effectively.  Those of us in EQ remember being in /raid, /officer, /guildclass, /guildtank...etc.  With smaller raids specialized info is less important, but there will usually be a raid strategy type of channel where the raid leader communicates with the officers and the information shouldnt go out to everyone else.  

Second, while its eaiser to give instructions in voice, its easier (and faster) to receive them in text.  It processes faster, and with less error.  In EQ we used lots of macros, and coordnation was just as strong, if not more so.

Also, raiding with headphones on for a couple hours gets uncomfortable no matter how expensive your headphones are, and there are always people severely inconvenienced by voice (those with families that they need to be alert to, those that prefer music while they play, etc)

I only hope that developers don't go with FPS-controls like Darkfall or the likes. It's horrible to play a MMORPG when you aren't able to zoom out and look at the whole thing from above, especially when we're talking mass-combat.

The Secret World has a good system with it's 7 active and 7 passive skillslots in addition to the dodging. Add collision detection for players, so that you can't shoot/cast through other players and we're golden.
The only problem with The Secret World is, that it doesn't have enough zoom. The camera is too close to your character with max zoom out.

Originally posted by strangiato2112

I hope not.  I hate it.  

 

Bring back strategic combat.  Sick of GCD clickfests and the new 'action' trend on top of that.

Agreed.

The cooldowns in Rift were so horrible that I quit 15 mins. into beta 2. I'd like to watch the game, not the cooldown bars, thank you very much.

Originally posted by killion81

Many of the new MMORPGs are releasing with more action oriented combat.  Some will say this new brand of combat is more skill based.  In my opinion, it feels like a new sub-genre, Multiplayer Online Action Roleplaying Games or MOARPGs.  I think there is plenty of room for a well designed MMORPG with traditional MMORPG combat.

How does everyone else feel about this?  Is this the future of the MMORPG genre?  Do you enjoy traditional MMORPG combat?  Is one type of combat better than the other in your opinion (and why)?

To be honost I love current MMO combat, it's much more exciting but at the same time I also dislike that this genre has become this mainly combat oriented online games. It's the RPG aspect is what I miss in today's MMORPG. But not the singleplayer RPG parts brought into this genre, but the RPG where what you see NPC's doing in singleplayer games should be optional and things players should be able to do in a MMORPG.

Originally posted by Trudge34

Originally posted by killion81

Originally posted by Neo_Liberty

Originally posted by strangiato2112

Originally posted by Trudge34

 

Me personally, although I liked the combat, after a while I didn't really care for it. In an MMO I prefer something more along the lines of EQ that allow you to relax, socialize, have fun and not be required to mash a ton of buttons to be on the top of your game. Like someone said above, give me something to fight for and good progression, strategy in fights and I'm fine. Combat isn't the main focus for me on MMOs. 

Exactly.  It takes away from the social aspect of MMORPGs, which is barely hanging on by a thread as it is. And it becomesjust as repetetive after you learn an enemy's moves.  BAMs were throroughly unimpressive to me, they were tedious.

lol.. combat taking away from socializing? lol... combat is for fighting.. fights are suppose to be intense.. otherwise wouldn't they call it something like playing.. or having a cup of tea... you socialize outside of combat.. or in between battles... they are other things in games to do... crafing.. exploring... combat has nothing to do with socialization.. i could understand if you were referring to grouping vs soloing.. but high speed combat makes ppl solo in mmo's? ridiculous.

 

If you played old school MMORPGs, you would realize that strangiato2112 is actually dead on with this comment.  I hadn't really put much thought into it, but it was very difficult to talk to anyone in GW2 unless I was sitting in town specifically for the purpose of socializing (glorified chat room) or I was on TS or Vent with people that I already knew.  MMORPGs prior to all of the "action combat" facilitated social interaction significantly more than the current action oriented games.

Exactly. Playing Tera it was impossible to talk, ask a question, give directions or shout out that we had an add or need to reposition a mob without opening myself up to taking a huge amount of damage. Being a tank, I couldn't type without taking down my block. So most of the runs were just zergs flying by the seat of my pants not really knowing what was going on. Much prefer to talk on the fly instead of taking 5 minutes of downtime to explain each different fight.

Raiding in EQ, I was always talking with a few of our other officers along with some key guildies that knew strats of the boss we were clearing towards. I'd be in tells or officer chat constantly with 3 or 4 people during the whole raid, plus doing my job as the main or secondary tank. Would prefer that much more than having to focus 100% on just the combat. 

you are exaggerating.. with gw2/ idk about tera's mechanics.. all you have to do is disengage the enemy and start typing... I have done it before myself....

we were fighting a champ mob and his hp kept regenerating.. everyone kept typing.. this must be a bug.. this must be a bug... and i stepped away from the fight long enough to say that the mob has probably been kited too far from its original position... so it reset and instead of pulling it from its original position i engaged it there... the other guy then followed my example and the fight went fine....

as i said before... combat is for combat.... even if you can't talk during it at certain times... most communication isn't necessary and if it is.. there are times when you can talk... if combat is so slow and boring that i can have full conversations.. I don't want to play it. If you don't want to focus on the combat.. you must not really care for combat in general... combat is the basis for most games across all platforms... so to say that you want it to be less hectic/less exciting is like being against combat itself.

not to mention i've played point and clicks.. where no one ever talked during combat... ppl only talk if you mess up or they can't figure out what to do on their own.. most combat is so easy that talking about it isn't necessary.. even gw2/tera....  also a lot of the time.. ppl monkey see monkey do... if i'm being successful with my tactics and others notice this they will copy me.... talking is not necessary.

Originally posted by Reklaw

Originally posted by killion81

Many of the new MMORPGs are releasing with more action oriented combat.  Some will say this new brand of combat is more skill based.  In my opinion, it feels like a new sub-genre, Multiplayer Online Action Roleplaying Games or MOARPGs.  I think there is plenty of room for a well designed MMORPG with traditional MMORPG combat.

How does everyone else feel about this?  Is this the future of the MMORPG genre?  Do you enjoy traditional MMORPG combat?  Is one type of combat better than the other in your opinion (and why)?

To be honost I love current MMO combat, it's much more exciting but at the same time I also dislike that this genre has become this mainly combat oriented online games. It's the RPG aspect is what I miss in today's MMORPG. But not the singleplayer RPG parts brought into this genre, but the RPG where what you see NPC's doing in singleplayer games should be optional and things players should be able to do in a MMORPG.

 

This..

games revolve around combat.. its only natural that they try to make it as exciting and enjoyable as possible. as i said in my original post action combat isn't about the combat mechanics.. its the speed of the combat.. point and click can be just exciting when the fight doesn't  take 1-5 minutes for normal mobs. you still have to pay attention and time your skills...

that being said... the combat speed is not relevant to what you do outside of combat.. ppl complain about interaction... but if the only time you interact is during combat... than its not much of an mmo.

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Originally posted by Neo_Liberty

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you are exaggerating.. with gw2/ idk about tera's mechanics.. all you have to do is disengage the enemy and start typing... I have done it before myself...

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How am I exaggerating? You even said with the very next sentence that you don't know how Tera's mechanics worked. Sure, you may just be able to back off a mob in GW2 and type, but that's because most of the harder mobs are just decent sized zergs. You can just pawn off aggro to someone else if you're getting hit.

Maybe you looked over in my post where I said I was the tank? Because in Tera you had to be actively hitting / blocking / whatever was on your hot button to maintain aggro or all the other squishy classes were done for? So if I wanted to move the mob, but couldn't because everyone was beating on it, I'd have to drop my shield or whatever other aggro technique I was using to type it out. Doing so opened myself up to attacks that could down you, or at the very least put a significant dent in your hp. So more often than not we went into fights without really knowing the ins and outs of it because no one wanted to take a little bit of downtime to explain the fight a bit.

You can read all the online guides you want, watch all the YouTube videos, maybe it's just me but those things don't explain it like having someone else who's done it explain a few of the bigger nuisances of the fight. Blows my mind that people don't want to take a few minutes before the boss after spending 45 minutes to an hour in a dungeon to explain the encounter a bit to someone who hasn't done it before and then flip out when that person screws up.

For many of us, combat is one way for us to advance towards a bigger goal. It's not the end all to the enjoyment of the game, but one of many pieces of the puzzle of why we enjoy this genre. It's shown with TERA that there needs to be more than just combat to keep people around.

Originally posted by Zekiah

Originally posted by strangiato2112

I hope not.  I hate it.  

 

Bring back strategic combat.  Sick of GCD clickfests and the new 'action' trend on top of that.

Agreed.

The cooldowns in Rift were so horrible that I quit 15 mins. into beta 2. I'd like to watch the game, not the cooldown bars, thank you very much.

The concept of cooldowns and global cooldowns are not bad ones.  However, like all game mechanics, they can be implemented well and not so well.  Both of these can add significant depth to combat, from a strategic standpoint, if implemented well.  If not, I agree, they tend to make combat drag and feel boring.

Originally posted by killion81

Originally posted by Zekiah

Originally posted by strangiato2112

I hope not.  I hate it.  

 

Bring back strategic combat.  Sick of GCD clickfests and the new 'action' trend on top of that.

Agreed.

The cooldowns in Rift were so horrible that I quit 15 mins. into beta 2. I'd like to watch the game, not the cooldown bars, thank you very much.

 

The concept of cooldowns and global cooldowns are not bad ones.  However, like all game mechanics, they can be implemented well and not so well.  Both of these can add significant depth to combat, from a strategic standpoint, if implemented well.  If not, I agree, they tend to make combat drag and feel boring.

I haven't seen a global cooldown system that isn't a constant bar-watching PITA of a mess. Ever.

I'd rather see some kind of chain system with multiple variables per level, at least then you wouldn't have to sit there and constantly watch a stupid freakin' cool-down bar.

Originally posted by killion81

Many of the new MMORPGs are releasing with more action oriented combat.  Some will say this new brand of combat is more skill based.  In my opinion, it feels like a new sub-genre, Multiplayer Online Action Roleplaying Games or MOARPGs.  I think there is plenty of room for a well designed MMORPG with traditional MMORPG combat.

How does everyone else feel about this?  Is this the future of the MMORPG genre?  Do you enjoy traditional MMORPG combat?  Is one type of combat better than the other in your opinion (and why)?

I don't mind the old style of combat, but I prefer the 'action-style' combat. Personally I prefer the first person style of combat that Darkfall1.0 had, and not the combat that TERA and GW2 had.

Originally posted by killion81

Originally posted by Zekiah
 

 

The concept of cooldowns and global cooldowns are not bad ones.  However, like all game mechanics, they can be implemented well and not so well.  Both of these can add significant depth to combat, from a strategic standpoint, if implemented well.  If not, I agree, they tend to make combat drag and feel boring.

Agreed. Like D3 has very exciting combat mechanics even with CDs and stuff. You actually have to watch where you step, and use your abilities accordingly, and dying is very possible.

Marvel Heroes is going to have Diablo type combat .. so that is the MMOs i am most eager to get my hands on.

Originally posted by Trudge34

 

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Originally posted by Neo_Liberty

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you are exaggerating.. with gw2/ idk about tera's mechanics.. all you have to do is disengage the enemy and start typing... I have done it before myself...

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How am I exaggerating? You even said with the very next sentence that you don't know how Tera's mechanics worked. Sure, you may just be able to back off a mob in GW2 and type, but that's because most of the harder mobs are just decent sized zergs. You can just pawn off aggro to someone else if you're getting hit.

Maybe you looked over in my post where I said I was the tank? Because in Tera you had to be actively hitting / blocking / whatever was on your hot button to maintain aggro or all the other squishy classes were done for? So if I wanted to move the mob, but couldn't because everyone was beating on it, I'd have to drop my shield or whatever other aggro technique I was using to type it out. Doing so opened myself up to attacks that could down you, or at the very least put a significant dent in your hp. So more often than not we went into fights without really knowing the ins and outs of it because no one wanted to take a little bit of downtime to explain the fight a bit.

You can read all the online guides you want, watch all the YouTube videos, maybe it's just me but those things don't explain it like having someone else who's done it explain a few of the bigger nuisances of the fight. Blows my mind that people don't want to take a few minutes before the boss after spending 45 minutes to an hour in a dungeon to explain the encounter a bit to someone who hasn't done it before and then flip out when that person screws up.

For many of us, combat is one way for us to advance towards a bigger goal. It's not the end all to the enjoyment of the game, but one of many pieces of the puzzle of why we enjoy this genre. It's shown with TERA that there needs to be more than just combat to keep people around.

that doesn't make my post any less significant..

the point is action combat overall.. its capabilities. every iteration of action combat isn't going to be the same.. in tera.. u may be forced to take a lick.. but every game isnt the same.. and you can't generalize based on one game... and u said it yourself u were the tank.. that means that someone else should pick up the slack... and if they can't.. its sad that you were the only person who had any clue about what to do.. games are not THAT complicated... maybe you should take a support role since your the only person smart enough to figure out how to fight...

and i wasn't talking about watching videos.. i was talking about thinking on your feet and noticing how effective another person is against the mob...

i've been praised many times in games based on my effective use of skills and positioning.. it doesn't take much to play better or be successful.. the fact that it seems like ppl dont "get it" is very disappointing.

also.. with your statement about needing more than combat... i never disagrred.. every game "should" have more than combat.. but that doesn't mean you take away from combat mechanics.. it means you involve housing/crafting/markets....

it doesn't mean dumb down combat so i can have a friendly chat about the weather.

This new style of combat is the future I hope. There is no skill whatsoever involved in the combat of the past (such as WoW) in which the game is aiming for you, leaping to people for you, dodging for you, blocking for you, and most importantly you're just spamming abilities hoping to wipe one another out.

Some could argue "well this is just a more skilled clickfest!" however many of the newer titles have downsides to you spamming the keys. For instance a loss of stamina is what I see a lot of new games doing. Stamina also goes into your dodging and etc.

In short, I hope they continue to produce more action oriented games. The market doesn't need any of that themepark hold your hand style you all want.