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General Discussion Forum » The Pub at MMORPG.COM » Why is there not an MMO that you can solo 100% of everything?

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272 posts found
  xeniar

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/09/06
Posts: 808

12/16/12 5:45:05 AM#61
Originally posted by cheyane
Oh god Khorian you made me so sad but you wrote that beautifully. Yes Everquest indeed was the very best of the best.

ah man now im sad asswell :( EQOA  (yes ps2 console MMO:P)  had the same settings oh god i miss it.

  MuratReis

Novice Member

Joined: 1/02/12
Posts: 73

12/16/12 5:57:35 AM#62
I know of a well-known game in which you can get end-game gear solo. It's really boring to do so, though.
  gordiflu

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/22/07
Posts: 764

12/16/12 6:00:28 AM#63
Originally posted by maplestone
Originally posted by Disdena

I think this issue is more closely tied to the concept of "endgame" and a level cap.

This would have been a far better way for the thread to have started.   Certain words are a little too radioactive.

The leveling games I've played (admittedly I've not played a lot of different ones to max level) do have a bait-and-switch feel.  You are offered one playstyle to max level, then there's an assumption that you're going to want to move to a completely different playstyle once you get there.  And so you end up with one group of players who are unhappy they had to grind through a game they didn't enjoy to start playing their game and you have another group that feels cut adrift when they get to the endgame, straining to find the fun.

If devs support each group of players retreating into their own comfort zone from beginning to end, the game practically forks into multiple independant games.  But I find myself starting to ask: is that really a bad thing?  Is there anything fundementally wrong with letting a community bifurcate into what are, for all practical purposes, seperate games that just happen to share a common pool of assets (lore, art, databases)?

It wasn't always like this. Grouping up while leveling was the common thing to do, for many reasons. Won't get into details.

Soloers crying for ages managed to achieve what they wanted. Now soloing is the most efficient way to level up.

And here comes stage 2. End game and hardest content also soloable.

  Goatgod76

Novice Member

Joined: 6/24/06
Posts: 1226

12/16/12 7:34:35 AM#64
Originally posted by TheScavenger

I'm not talking about having companions (npc or player)...but one character being able to solo 100% of everything. Now...hear me out...

 

Many MMOs, especially themeparks...they in a way...very much mislead you. You can spen levels 1 to 85 (as an example) being able to do EVERYTHING solo. Suddenly you hit max level...and the game had the bait...then it switched...suddenly there is very little content you can solo. You can only do raids if you are in a group, or if the raids become out of date (and that takes a while)...only very few (if any) classes are able to solo (when, while leveling, every class can solo everything). 

 

MMOs are already on the path of becoming quick to play, cheap and more solo oriented. Log on, do raid/dungeon finder...play for 15-30 min and accomplish a lot. Not relying on spamming chat "lfg" "lfg"...15 minutes later... "lfg". And many MMOs are very quickly relying on the player WANTING to group, and not feeling FORCED to group. WoW went far down this path, but to do new raids...still need a group and (last I saw), new raids aren't part of the raid finder. SWTOR was on the way to this path, but found voice acting and adding to the story was much more expensive than adding raids that forced you to group.

But you can still group up while leveling in WoW and themeparks, doing dungeons and what not (that are still solable with certain classes)...if you want to...not if you are forced to.

 

Because MMORPG's were meant for COMMUNITY. There are 100% soloable RPG's though...on XBox360 and PS3...where they were meant for.

  therealeasy

Novice Member

Joined: 12/11/12
Posts: 44

12/16/12 10:21:35 AM#65

 -

  theAsna

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/16/09
Posts: 303

12/16/12 10:49:01 AM#66
Originally posted by TheScavenger

...

Many MMOs, especially themeparks...they in a way...very much mislead you. You can spen levels 1 to 85 (as an example) being able to do EVERYTHING solo. Suddenly you hit max level...and the game had the bait...then it switched...suddenly there is very little content you can solo. You can only do raids if you are in a group, or if the raids become out of date (and that takes a while)...only very few (if any) classes are able to solo (when, while leveling, every class can solo everything). 

... 

 

You can offer players choices. But let's be honest, players have much too often a utilitarian view (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilitarian) on games. If you offer group content and equivalent solo content players are going the path of least resistance.

There is nothing that can be done to help a soloist. A company can make the game in a way that allows to level, quest and explore most of the world on their own ways (and without help). But there are also those other players that want some group content and some more challenge (i.e. coordinating a group of people isn't that easy). Companies try to cater to both camps of players. And now a soloist complains that there are activities they can't endulge in?

If you take MMORPGs like WoW of SWToR a soloist can take on the old group content (provided his/her toon outlevels the content). If it's just to see the content once that should suffice. But take some group content with levers or puzzles where more than one person is required. In order to make it viable for soloists this content would need to be redone (and the puzzle changed conpletely).

You can't always please everyone.

 

  Banaghran

Novice Member

Joined: 1/17/12
Posts: 872

12/16/12 11:24:59 AM#67
Originally posted by theAsna

But take some group content with levers or puzzles where more than one person is required. In order to make it viable for soloists this content would need to be redone (and the puzzle changed conpletely).

You can't always please everyone.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defeatist

:)

Anyways, "levers or puzzles" ? What games do you play?

We have no levers and puzzles, and during wotlk we went to AQ just to see newbie people who flamed guildies that they died at sarth3d die 4 times at twin emps, unable absorb the tactics without bossmods, nearly every week...

The bar is rather low, no tactics, levers or the sheer number of people required there.

Noone says it would be easy, just the things you would have to consider regarding loot could fill a page of text if not more.

But it is possible, no 7 day lockout, no mobs that oneshot everybody and are completely immune to cc, that enrage and reset, just so that you have to have a group.

If a soloist wants to kill a mob in 100 minutes that a group of 10 kills in 10minutes, why shouldnt he?

Flame on!

:)

  shirlnt

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/29/06
Posts: 354

12/16/12 11:46:11 AM#68

There once was an MMO that did a decent job ( I didn't say perfect, because it was flawed but the right concept was there) on solo v. grouping.  For one thing, players did not have levels attached to them.  People from the newbie that just logged in for the first time to the player who was close to being "fully developed" (there were skill trees and a person could design their own "template" until they ran out of skill points to unlock new boxes/skills) could group together in rather large groups(I think groups maxed out at 20) and EVERYONE got the same amount of XP from kills.  There were certain animals that even a maxed character had to be grouped to get missions from mission terminal and those offered the max XP in the game of 500.   It was possible to solo to completed template but grouping was quicker.  Also, there were "dungeons" and "bosses" that were designed to need groups.

Unfortunately, game designers did not put into the equation that people would find ways to make stronger armor and buffs than intended and that people would find the "perfect" template combining these factors so that there were those that could solo EVERYTHING in the game.  Instead of groups working together on missions, solo groups became popular with people using groups to access the best missions from the terminals but soloing the spawns.  Then WoW came on the scene and MMO companies saw that there was potential for a much larger player base.  Rather than "tweak" numbers to fix the game that existed, the company totally changed the game to try chasing after the WoW numbers and players who wanted games to be easier/more solo-able.

I personally hate the concept of "end-game" but part of the problem with players having levels is it leads to soloing up to end game.  I haven't played WoW in a while but I've made around three attempts at playing it, each attempt lasting a month or two.  It was always frustrating hitting a point in the quest line that had a group quest because it meant trying to find enough people who were around the same level, perhaps even had the same quest, in order to do the quest.  The other option was to get high enough to be able to solo something designed for group but still low enough to get decent xp from it....or high enough to solo it with very little xp, doing it just to see what the like and get the loot/money from it.  Then "endgame" becomes the point in the game for "forced" grouping because at that point people are maxed level and everyone who has hit "endgame" is the same level.  Not sure why anyone would want "endgame" content to be solo-able because I still don't understand the importance of endgame.  Is it to make your character strong enough for when more levels are added and that is no longer the end of the game? *shrugs*

Anyway, on the subject of solo v groups, there is a reason this genre of games is called MMOrpg.  As others have said, there are plenty of solo games available.  If all a person wants to do with other people is PvP, there are also plenty of solo games with a multiplayer pvp option.  An mmo should not be designed to be 100% solo-able.  For me, the "perfect" balance would be a game in which one could totally develop their character using solo-able stuff without extreme frustration BUT there would be motivation to group (such as higher xp from grouping) and there would be 1. things in game that a higher player could solo but a group of lower players could also do (20 players with the newbie gun that was in the inventory the first time they logged in killing a big bad dragon is not only fun to participate in but can be hilarious to watch), 2. things in the game that could not be done solo by ANYONE (not that it necessarily takes a group of maxed out players because that leads too much to elitist guilds plus I love mixed groups where higher players help lower players).

  Burntvet

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/16/07
Posts: 2747

12/16/12 11:54:41 AM#69

The fact that developers have already made games as "solo freindly" as they are, is prime reason, imo, that the genre has gone down the toilet in the last 6-8 years.

As Raph Koster of SWG design fame has said, "MMOs, in regards to the original implementation, are no longer being made. What is being made now are signle player games in shared space."

As such, there is already too much in "modern MMOs" that can be solo'd. TOR being a prime example, where you never needed interact with another player during the whole time leveling up a toon. And this is a weakness in an MMO, this lack of need for player interdependency and community, is a prime reason TOR crashed so spectacularly.

 

100% solo MMO? Bad for the genre that has already gone too far in that direction.

 

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10577

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

12/16/12 11:57:40 AM#70

I don't know, it's an interesting thought experiment. All content can be done 100% solo, but the world is also something of a sandbox, where players can have land, rent houses, whatever. They have the option of doing content in groups, but it really is optional.

My guess would be player expectations. Even if a player doesn't want to focus on group content, they expect group content to exist. It might hurt sales or retention if a game is too far off the path of 'normal'.

Just a guess.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19530

12/16/12 12:07:11 PM#71
Originally posted by Onomas
If you want to play by yourself, go grab a single player game and have at it. MMORPG's are about interaction and socialization, amongst other things of course. Dont get why people want a single player console game as a mmorpg, its silly. You already ahve thousands of solo type games out there, why try to ruin the industry even more

Group co-op is not the only interaction out there, is it? Trading is an interaction. AH is an interaction.

And i think you get it reverse. It is not people want SP console games as a MMORPG, it is MMORPG devs want to capture the SP console game players as a part of their audience, and integrate SP game elements into MMORPGs.

Lastly, do you really think solo-ability is not a MMORPG issue? With so many MMORPG touting the ability to solo in them.

  Onomas

Novice Member

Joined: 7/05/11
Posts: 1160

Sandbox is your only hope for a decent mmo ;)

12/16/12 12:18:53 PM#72
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Onomas
If you want to play by yourself, go grab a single player game and have at it. MMORPG's are about interaction and socialization, amongst other things of course. Dont get why people want a single player console game as a mmorpg, its silly. You already ahve thousands of solo type games out there, why try to ruin the industry even more

Group co-op is not the only interaction out there, is it? Trading is an interaction. AH is an interaction.

And i think you get it reverse. It is not people want SP console games as a MMORPG, it is MMORPG devs want to capture the SP console game players as a part of their audience, and integrate SP game elements into MMORPGs.

Lastly, do you really think solo-ability is not a MMORPG issue? With so many MMORPG touting the ability to solo in them.

Do you even know what a mmorpg is, the definition is, and how odd your statement sounds? MMO = massively multiplayer online.................. Doesnt say massively singleplayer online. Here since you still dont get it let me draw you a picture:

 

 

See the top left picture is singleplayer, see the solo character.

See the top right is online games with multiplayer function like statistica, moba, etc without the world and fun. Anywhere from 2-a few dozen players that can interact with things that are linked, but not shared.

See the bottom picture is a MMO/MMORPG. Its a whole lot of people in a circle, the circle represents a world, and they all interact at the same time and have lots of fun.

 

I still cant believe you do not understand the difference and want the entire industry to change for your views of what a mmo is.

And yes single player style games should stay out of mmorpg's, it does nothing but ruin what mmorpgs stand for. Go put some mmorpg into a single player console and be happy with that.

  User Deleted
12/16/12 12:23:44 PM#73

Solo PvE content in a PvP MMO where you need to group up to overcome the PvP obstacles.

Problem solved & a perfect game.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19530

12/16/12 12:24:34 PM#74
Originally posted by Onomas
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Onomas
If you want to play by yourself, go grab a single player game and have at it. MMORPG's are about interaction and socialization, amongst other things of course. Dont get why people want a single player console game as a mmorpg, its silly. You already ahve thousands of solo type games out there, why try to ruin the industry even more

Group co-op is not the only interaction out there, is it? Trading is an interaction. AH is an interaction.

And i think you get it reverse. It is not people want SP console games as a MMORPG, it is MMORPG devs want to capture the SP console game players as a part of their audience, and integrate SP game elements into MMORPGs.

Lastly, do you really think solo-ability is not a MMORPG issue? With so many MMORPG touting the ability to solo in them.

Do you even know what a mmorpg is, the definition is, and how odd your statement sounds? MMO = massively multiplayer online.................. Doesnt say massively singleplayer online. Here since you still dont get it let me draw you a picture:

 

I go with this industry definition:

http://www.newzoo.com/insights/the-global-mmo-market-sizing-and-seizing-opportunities-2/

And since that includes LOL .. certainly there is SP game features in MMOs.

Do YOU know what the current MMO definition is?

  Ghavrigg

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/10/12
Posts: 720

12/16/12 12:38:16 PM#75

Playing 100% solo is boring as shit. I can play solo for a while before I get bored (but not overly long), but even then, I'm constantly watching chat to see if anyone wants to group for content I want to do. If everything was 100% solo, I would get very bored, very quickly.

I personally love seeing LFG this and that. It gives me motivation to level to do it myself with others. I like grouping with other players and having fun.

I think games are FAR too solo-heavy as it is and needs to be scaled back. 50-50 is probably fine, but it's currently like 80-20 for soloing.

I generally don't level up just to do things myself. I level up, obtain gear, etc., to be more useful in group situations, and to show off a little while I'm at it if possible.

That being said, OP, I woudln't be surprised if a 100% solo game is in the works. I just don't think it'll last.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19530

12/16/12 12:54:22 PM#76
Originally posted by Aviggin

Playing 100% solo is boring as shit. I can play solo for a while before I get bored (but not overly long), but even then, I'm constantly watching chat to see if anyone wants to group for content I want to do. If everything was 100% solo, I would get very bored, very quickly.

I personally love seeing LFG this and that. It gives me motivation to level to do it myself with others. I like grouping with other players and having fun.

I think games are FAR too solo-heavy as it is and needs to be scaled back. 50-50 is probably fine, but it's currently like 80-20 for soloing.

I generally don't level up just to do things myself. I level up, obtain gear, etc., to be more useful in group situations, and to show off a little while I'm at it if possible.

That being said, OP, I woudln't be surprised if a 100% solo game is in the works. I just don't think it'll last.

To be fair, i prefer LFD grouping to level in a MMO. But i also understand there are those who prefer solo more. Boring to you is not boring to others, i hope you understand that.

Actually if a game is MMO .. hence online, there is usually a MP component. Even games like Diablo and Torchlight 2 are not 100% solo.

  User Deleted
12/16/12 12:55:14 PM#77

If you think about it all MMO games are solo play. Why or how dare I say that? I will tell you why or how dare I say it because you have to pick a class or a race that YOU like then you have to lvl up your avatar to achieve the goals of the game weather it be healing or dps or taking or whatever your role is. Then if you play PVE with npc running your quest or even if you play with other real live players if you fail on your part in whatever instence or raid or for that matter just solo playing lvling up and you die by trash mobs then guess what it not the fault of a group or the trash mobs or the boss that your raid just wiped on it is your fault no one else fault because you could not play your toon to a solo point to contribute a wining outcome.

So to answer the OP is yes you can solo everything 100% in a MMO.

Just remember your victory is just that your victory. Also you fail is just that your fail. You soloed it no one else but you.

  moosecatlol

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/25/10
Posts: 1175

12/16/12 1:32:56 PM#78
  TheScavenger

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/05/12
Posts: 686

Those who ask a question, are stupid for 30 seconds. Those who never ask, are stupid for life.

 
OP  12/16/12 1:35:30 PM#79
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Aviggin

Playing 100% solo is boring as shit. I can play solo for a while before I get bored (but not overly long), but even then, I'm constantly watching chat to see if anyone wants to group for content I want to do. If everything was 100% solo, I would get very bored, very quickly.

I personally love seeing LFG this and that. It gives me motivation to level to do it myself with others. I like grouping with other players and having fun.

I think games are FAR too solo-heavy as it is and needs to be scaled back. 50-50 is probably fine, but it's currently like 80-20 for soloing.

I generally don't level up just to do things myself. I level up, obtain gear, etc., to be more useful in group situations, and to show off a little while I'm at it if possible.

That being said, OP, I woudln't be surprised if a 100% solo game is in the works. I just don't think it'll last.

To be fair, i prefer LFD grouping to level in a MMO. But i also understand there are those who prefer solo more. Boring to you is not boring to others, i hope you understand that.

Actually if a game is MMO .. hence online, there is usually a MP component. Even games like Diablo and Torchlight 2 are not 100% solo.

Yes, this.

 

For one, I find grouping MUCH easier than going at something solo. In groups, I barely have to pay attention to what is going on or what I'm doing. Same with raids, especially the larger 25 man (and even more so in 50 man) raids. Going at something solo, I have to be on my feet...really pay attention to what is going on. 

 

Now I do group once in a while. And I find looking for dungeon/raids a great feature to motivate to join groups. No need to stand around for an hour waiting for the raid to fill up. And I can turn off sound, so I don't have to listen to an armchair strategist telling (or in some cases, yelling) me what to do. I can instead just focus on the game, and not hear some guys voice.

 

Also, going at something solo...I can take my time doing something. In groups, its rush rush rush...solo...I just go at my own pace. I can go afk any time if something comes up, I don't have to be at my chair for hours and hours...I can take a lot of breaks. 

 

A lot of reasons why solo is more fun and better.  And like mentioned, just because I'm not in a group...doesn't mean I'm not contributing to the community and game or not socializing at all.

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  Nitth

Elite Member

Joined: 7/29/10
Posts: 3272

Magic Propels my Rolly Chair.

12/16/12 1:38:51 PM#80


I go with this industry definition:
http://www.newzoo.com/insights/the-global-mmo-market-sizing-and-seizing-opportunities-2/
And since that includes LOL .. certainly there is SP game features in MMOs.
Do YOU know what the current MMO definition is?

I'm sorry, who are these people and what are their credentials?


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