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General Discussion Forum » The Pub at MMORPG.COM » What happened to the Sandbox PvP?

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38 posts found
  Haxzon

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/22/10
Posts: 1

You just won't ever understand!

 
OP  12/07/12 3:56:28 PM#1

I have searched and searched for a mmorpg that would peak my interest again. It seems i just keep hoping for something that just wont be there ever again.

 

The "No Holds-Barred, stomach in knots, kill first ask questions later" kind of game... I'm not saying FPS. I'm saying MMORPG. The kind of game where you and the other players ARE the world.  The world where you have to have scouts while leveling so you dont get ambushed by other players and loot stolen. And after a long day of solo PKing or reaching your next conquest... you wonder on home to the city, castle, town, but not just any town... The town that you and your guild placed and built from the ground up! The one that you defend, nurture, love. And as long as your walls stand... your only real safehaven.

 

Yes, folks, I'm talking about a real Sandbox PvP. No Carebears allowed.  Something like Shadowbane!

 

I have played many mmorpg dating all the way back to UO and EQ... and many styles since but it seems no game has ever really peaked my interest until the game that stripped the boring quests and carebeared Anime content for the casual PvE player... and just went for it. Gave the world to the players. Yes it had its flaws, the game engine sucked, certain characters got nerfed because of the carebears (ie : a thief class was really a thief and could take the money right out of your pocket and be gone before you know it...) If you died, your inventory (not your equipped items) was fair game! I'm just saying I miss this game and truly believe with the new technology a game of this nature would thrive and prosper.

 

Where's my Sandbox! I wanna play?

 

What do you think? Anyone else longing for this? Or are you happy with how the mmorpg worlds are now?

I miss Shadowbane

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19463

12/07/12 4:00:31 PM#2
Originally posted by Haxzon

What do you think? Anyone else longing for this? Or are you happy with how the mmorpg worlds are now?

No i am not longing for this. In fact, i won't touch it wth a ten foot pole. I would much prefer e-sport arena in a pve centric MMO, or something like a MMOFPS like PS2 where there is only world pvp.

I don't like my pve & pvp mixing.

  L0C0Man

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/30/09
Posts: 919

12/07/12 4:15:08 PM#3

What happened to sandbox PvP?... Trammel happened (note that this is mostle second hand information, I never played UO but have several friends that were heavily into it back then)

Trammel was introduced and players that preferred to play PvE found out they were having more fun without having their money and loot stolen, being able to actually explore the world without fear of getting killed and looted, and turned out that those were most of the players in the game.

And well, your sandbox is right over there, it's called EVE, and has some cousins like Mortal Online that you can play right now.. :)

What can men do against such reckless hate?

  Yalexy

Novice Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 1020

12/07/12 4:16:27 PM#4

Pure PvP-MMOs don't work too well, as the playerbase for such kind of a MMO is simply too small to support it or because the studios that go with that approach are simply bad and cannot fix their broken stuff fast enough.

Darfall, Mortal Online, Earthrise... all failed because of both these reasons.

EvE on the other hand survived, because allthough it's based on PvP offers alot of safe PvE-actrivities to do and has a committed developer.

So, here I'm waiting for a good MMO with a good balance between open world PvP and PvE released by a decent developer. Maybe ArcheAge will deliver some two years down the road, but until then there's nothing on the horizon peaking my interest.

  fenistil

Novice Member

Joined: 9/22/11
Posts: 3016

12/07/12 5:03:37 PM#5
Originally posted by Yalexy
Maybe ArcheAge will deliver some two years down the road, but until then there's nothing on the horizon peaking my interest.

AA has potential to be nice good game, BUT it is not pure sandbox. FAR from it.   It has very big themepark parts.   So it is something similar to hmm Fallen Earth with few more sandbox features and bit bigger budget? Or Lineage II mixed with Vanilla WoW and some UO features.

 

-----------

 

On topic:

Never was big on pvp in sandbox mmorpg's.  I did not mind bit of danger and even some pvp action, but most of the time I was playing for PvE, Economy, Cooperation and Crafting when playing UO.   So solution similar to EVE, but even more catrered to non-pvp with aound 70% of land without PVP and only 20-30% with pvp allowed would be perfect for me.

  Kiljaedenas

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/29/11
Posts: 466

To err is human, but to really f*ck things up you need a computer.

12/07/12 5:11:46 PM#6
Originally posted by L0C0Man

What happened to sandbox PvP?... Trammel happened (note that this is mostle second hand information, I never played UO but have several friends that were heavily into it back then)

Trammel was introduced and players that preferred to play PvE found out they were having more fun without having their money and loot stolen, being able to actually explore the world without fear of getting killed and looted, and turned out that those were most of the players in the game.

And well, your sandbox is right over there, it's called EVE, and has some cousins like Mortal Online that you can play right now.. :)

Damn, beat me to it :). I was gonna say "Have you tried Eve yet"?

Go play Eve and get yourself into Nullsec. You should find what you're looking for.

Where's the any key?

  Madimorga

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/26/10
Posts: 1997

12/07/12 5:24:38 PM#7

Oh my.  Such a sweet little optimist.  Where your guildies got your back, even if you never met a one of them in real life.  Oh wow, this attitude is so foreign to the reality I don't even know where to start.

 

You want the old days, poor thing.  But the old days are gone and dead.  The reality is more like Eve, you can't trust anyone or anything and everyone is out to get what they can.  Even your precious guildies.  Especially your precious guildies.

 

MMOs have grown up, like stocks, like bonds, like interpersonal relationships.  It's over, those days are all over and done.   You can't trust anyone.  Especially the people who claim to be your online family, your guildmates, your brothers, your whatevers.  Welcome to the new day.  Welcome to the new dawn.  Trust is dead and trust is done and trust is gone.

I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.

~Albert Einstein

  Vunak23

Novice Member

Joined: 11/27/10
Posts: 659

In your house Eatin' your Cookies!

12/07/12 5:33:22 PM#8

ArcheAge is gonna be good, Ive betaed it. Yea I'm an old school gamer like yourself. It has most of everything we from Lineage/UO/Shadowbane etc want in a MMO. It does have a quest based leveling system, but I would say thats about as far as its themepark elements go...Hmm well a few instances, but the world bosses drop the best stuff so. 

I guess it will depend on how much they change from last CBT to OBT and Release. And what ever the western publisher decides to "Westernize"

"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then we’ve got another one that is actually going to be – so we’re going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what we’re targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you can’t hold me to it. But what we’re targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo

  maccarthur2004

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/02/12
Posts: 473

12/07/12 5:41:51 PM#9
Originally posted by fenistil
Originally posted by Yalexy
Maybe ArcheAge will deliver some two years down the road, but until then there's nothing on the horizon peaking my interest.

AA has potential to be nice good game, BUT it is not pure sandbox. FAR from it.   It has very big themepark parts.   So it is something similar to hmm Fallen Earth with few more sandbox features and bit bigger budget? Or Lineage II mixed with Vanilla WoW and some UO features.

AA will be 80-90% sandbox and 10-20% themepark. The themepark feature will be mainly the quests and a instanced "training camp" that will only give small to medium rewards. The "endgame" of AA will be 100% sandbox with FFA partial loot PVP, with some penaltys to who pk same faction players in southern continent and none in the northern.

"What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

  Kalafax

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/05/05
Posts: 501

12/07/12 5:42:27 PM#10

Sadly EvE is about the closest we can get anymore to the good old days, with its annoying real time skill system and rampant ingame betrayal.

I've longed for exactly what you mention many time over the years since OU/SWG, but it just isnt to be in this day and age anymore, maybe one day one of us old school games will hit the big lottery and be able to fund such a game returning, but untill then we are out of luck from the masses.

Mess with the best, Die like the rest

  Vunak23

Novice Member

Joined: 11/27/10
Posts: 659

In your house Eatin' your Cookies!

12/07/12 5:44:34 PM#11
Originally posted by maccarthur2004
Originally posted by fenistil
Originally posted by Yalexy
Maybe ArcheAge will deliver some two years down the road, but until then there's nothing on the horizon peaking my interest.

AA has potential to be nice good game, BUT it is not pure sandbox. FAR from it.   It has very big themepark parts.   So it is something similar to hmm Fallen Earth with few more sandbox features and bit bigger budget? Or Lineage II mixed with Vanilla WoW and some UO features.

AA will be 80-90% sandbox and 10-20% themepark. The themepark feature will be mainly the quests and a instanced "training camp" that will only give small to medium rewards. The "endgame" of AA will be 100% sandbox with FFA partial loot PVP, with some penaltys to who pk same faction players in southern continent and none in the northern.

Yes... that and AA has gliders. One of my favorite features in the game. 

"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then we’ve got another one that is actually going to be – so we’re going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what we’re targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you can’t hold me to it. But what we’re targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo

  maccarthur2004

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/02/12
Posts: 473

12/07/12 5:49:50 PM#12

The budget to ArcheAge (production only) is around 25-30 milions. I think never a sandbox mmo had so much money into, and in the last 10 years it will be the first MMO that can be considered AAA and sandbox.

AA have only 2 flaws i know so far: the outdated tab-target system and the fact that will be released in no less than 2 years. :(

 

"What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

  SuprGamerX

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/05/09
Posts: 538

12/07/12 5:52:06 PM#13

 Sandbox MMO with no carebear?  Impossible.   No matter how you want to view this.  Carebears make up about 90% of a sandbox title , which in return generate cash flow for the title.   Make EVE-Online 100% null sec tomorrow morning , by next month the game shuts down.  Simple as that , hardcore PvP centric games fail so bad because there isn't a WHOLE lot of hardcore PvP centric people to begin with.  And people = cash flow , the more people you got , better the cash flow.

  So yea , keep dreaming or make your own. :)

  Cecropia

Gumshoe

Joined: 3/06/09
Posts: 3266

Poacher killer.

12/07/12 5:55:16 PM#14
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Haxzon

What do you think? Anyone else longing for this? Or are you happy with how the mmorpg worlds are now?

...I don't like my pve & pvp mixing.

It works like magic in EVE. Seperating the two is unecessary and primitive. When you have both the PVEers and the PVPers dependent on each other, not only do you dramatically increase the popularity of your game, but you end up with the foundation for a masterpiece like EVE Online. Win, win.

 

"Chuck's a good fighter but he's a UFC fighter... this is Pride." - Quinton Rampage Jackson
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  Vunak23

Novice Member

Joined: 11/27/10
Posts: 659

In your house Eatin' your Cookies!

12/07/12 5:56:37 PM#15
Originally posted by maccarthur2004

The budget to ArcheAge (production only) is around 25-30 milions. I think never a sandbox mmo had so much money into, and in the last 10 years it will be the first MMO that can be considered AAA and sandbox.

AA have only 2 flaws i know so far: the outdated tab-target system and the fact that will be released in no less than 2 years. :(

 

Idk  i think we will be close to release by the end of 2013. 

I mean Jakes main concerns right now are Korea and China, and China is developing/translating right along with Korea. We are gonna see OBT early next year and probably release a few weeks later for Korea. A month later I see China doing the same. 

Maybe a year and a half if they dont start the localization right away. It really doesn't take all that long to translate, FFXI/FFXIV and SE do it quick as hell. 

Course this is me being optimistic heh..

"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then we’ve got another one that is actually going to be – so we’re going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what we’re targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you can’t hold me to it. But what we’re targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo

  anemo

Novice Member

Joined: 12/24/10
Posts: 699

12/07/12 6:05:54 PM#16

Because PvPer mechanics suck for the most part in a World of Everclone games.  The PvPer is aim to minimize their risk to  near 0 for the same reward, while a PvEer is forced on an infinite progression track(one the PvPer doesn't participate in).  

This means at release you get PvEers to locus swarm content get the "did this first" social medal.   Then you get your hyena's to go in and scavenge off those PvEers which chases them away.   Then PvPers looking for challenge(lions) scare off the hyena's after they've killed their own hunting ground.   Meaning a systematic exodus of most players, with a small niche community that can't support the original expense of "going large or not at all" that MMOs follow...

__________

Really if you want no holds barred PvPer that doesn't fall into the above you have Haven and Hearth.  Full on permadeath, no banks or other 100% safe storage mechanics, fully realized world where everything is player made/destroyed, and a game design where even the largest CAREBEAR realizes these harsh mechanics makes the entire game possible.

Of course in the above game you won't last very long.   The prey holds you accountable for your actions and can make you suffer just as much as you can make them suffer. 

__________

Pretty much what you're looking for a game set in a "world of everclone" setting where PvEers are forced to take more risk, can't respond due to safty abuse mechanics, and other mechanics that skews the world in your favor.   Will never exisist again, or at least for very long.

Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.

"There are still vast swaths of our planet's surface in which it's surprisingly easy to lose things. Even a ship the size of a large building." Richard Fisher

  maccarthur2004

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/02/12
Posts: 473

12/07/12 6:10:28 PM#17
Originally posted by Vunak23
Originally posted by maccarthur2004

The budget to ArcheAge (production only) is around 25-30 milions. I think never a sandbox mmo had so much money into, and in the last 10 years it will be the first MMO that can be considered AAA and sandbox.

AA have only 2 flaws i know so far: the outdated tab-target system and the fact that will be released in no less than 2 years. :(

 

Idk  i think we will be close to release by the end of 2013. 

I mean Jakes main concerns right now are Korea and China, and China is developing/translating right along with Korea. We are gonna see OBT early next year and probably release a few weeks later for Korea. A month later I see China doing the same. 

Maybe a year and a half if they dont start the localization right away. It really doesn't take all that long to translate, FFXI/FFXIV and SE do it quick as hell. 

Course this is me being optimistic heh..

Russia will have a earlier release too. My bet to the release to western countries is no early than April 2014.

 

 

"What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

  Vunak23

Novice Member

Joined: 11/27/10
Posts: 659

In your house Eatin' your Cookies!

12/07/12 6:12:02 PM#18
Originally posted by maccarthur2004
Originally posted by Vunak23
Originally posted by maccarthur2004

The budget to ArcheAge (production only) is around 25-30 milions. I think never a sandbox mmo had so much money into, and in the last 10 years it will be the first MMO that can be considered AAA and sandbox.

AA have only 2 flaws i know so far: the outdated tab-target system and the fact that will be released in no less than 2 years. :(

 

Idk  i think we will be close to release by the end of 2013. 

I mean Jakes main concerns right now are Korea and China, and China is developing/translating right along with Korea. We are gonna see OBT early next year and probably release a few weeks later for Korea. A month later I see China doing the same. 

Maybe a year and a half if they dont start the localization right away. It really doesn't take all that long to translate, FFXI/FFXIV and SE do it quick as hell. 

Course this is me being optimistic heh..

Russia will have a earlier release too. My bet to the release to western countries is no early than April 2014.

 

 

IDK I dont think Russia will be before EU and US, we have a bigger market between us then Russia. Now Japan will be before us I forgot about them. 

"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then we’ve got another one that is actually going to be – so we’re going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what we’re targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you can’t hold me to it. But what we’re targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo

  Apraxis

Elite Member

Joined: 9/28/05
Posts: 1454

12/07/12 6:23:03 PM#19
Originally posted by Haxzon

I have searched and searched for a mmorpg that would peak my interest again. It seems i just keep hoping for something that just wont be there ever again.

 

The "No Holds-Barred, stomach in knots, kill first ask questions later" kind of game... I'm not saying FPS. I'm saying MMORPG. The kind of game where you and the other players ARE the world.  The world where you have to have scouts while leveling so you dont get ambushed by other players and loot stolen. And after a long day of solo PKing or reaching your next conquest... you wonder on home to the city, castle, town, but not just any town... The town that you and your guild placed and built from the ground up! The one that you defend, nurture, love. And as long as your walls stand... your only real safehaven.

 

Yes, folks, I'm talking about a real Sandbox PvP. No Carebears allowed.  Something like Shadowbane!

 

I have played many mmorpg dating all the way back to UO and EQ... and many styles since but it seems no game has ever really peaked my interest until the game that stripped the boring quests and carebeared Anime content for the casual PvE player... and just went for it. Gave the world to the players. Yes it had its flaws, the game engine sucked, certain characters got nerfed because of the carebears (ie : a thief class was really a thief and could take the money right out of your pocket and be gone before you know it...) If you died, your inventory (not your equipped items) was fair game! I'm just saying I miss this game and truly believe with the new technology a game of this nature would thrive and prosper.

 

Where's my Sandbox! I wanna play?

 

What do you think? Anyone else longing for this? Or are you happy with how the mmorpg worlds are now?

Well.. Darkfall Unholy Wars is a few weeks away.. there you get exactly that.

In Arche Age you will have something similar(no full loot, but you didnt have full loot in Shadowbane either), but that one will take some more time.. although it will most probably release January in Korea.. but NA/EU may take a year more.. noone knows at the moment. And Arche Age will offer a little bit more than Shadowbane.. think about UO, Shadowbane and LineAge 2 and you will get a very solid idea about Arche Age.

  Rimmersman

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/15/12
Posts: 911

12/07/12 6:29:42 PM#20
Originally posted by Vunak23

ArcheAge is gonna be good, Ive betaed it. Yea I'm an old school gamer like yourself. It has most of everything we from Lineage/UO/Shadowbane etc want in a MMO. It does have a quest based leveling system, but I would say thats about as far as its themepark elements go...Hmm well a few instances, but the world bosses drop the best stuff so. 

I guess it will depend on how much they change from last CBT to OBT and Release. And what ever the western publisher decides to "Westernize"

 

Archeage is a hybrid not a sandbox MMO, it has themepark features which is okay. In fact Age Of Wushu is more sandbox, FFA PvP, no classes or levels, clan buildings all player made. It also has a bounty system and a prison system like Archeage, no safe areas and beheading for serious law breaker's. Every top weapons and armour and just about every item is player made, if you craft a blade you will need to find a carpenter to craft the hilt. And then you have the offline features where you actually stay on in the world as an npc manning you stall or doing chores for you faction. This has it's risks because you can be kidnaped by PKs and sold into slavery for another faction but they will have a bounty on them. If they build up to much crime points they can be sent to prison for up to 24 hours or have a public execution which also effects them for 24 hours. You can get your clan to pay for your release. There is also farming in the game like Archeage and all this in a beautiful open world that is based on feudal China, no elves or dwarfs or oversized weapons in Age Of Wushu. The second western BETA starts on the 20th of December through till the 9th of January. We will have updated content and quests and features. Make no mistake Age Of Wushu is a full PvP FFA sandbox MMO and before you log into the game it tells you that it's a pvp game and are you sure you want to proceed.

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