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General Discussion Forum » The Pub at MMORPG.COM » $15 a month? No way!

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125 posts found
  psiicat

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/15/12
Posts: 30

11/21/12 5:12:02 PM#61

What annoys the total and complete piss out of me are the ones that have subscriptions + cash shop.

Which seems to be the new normal for the industry.

I mean seriously they could at least buy us dinner first

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4844

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

11/21/12 5:16:20 PM#62
Originally posted by psiicat

What annoys the total and complete piss out of me are the ones that have subscriptions + cash shop.

Which seems to be the new normal for the industry.

I mean seriously they could at least buy us dinner first

I have to admit I"m of two minds about p2p and cs.  Not about whether I like it or don't but whether I don't like or don't mind it.

On one hand I definately would like to access the whole for one price.

On the other, the price has remained the same for a decade while costs have increasingly gone up (number of taxes, rental property, benefits, dev salaries, office costs...) so I recognize the need or desire for the companies to want to do something to offset those costs.

Then again cs and b2p+cs games are showing us that a subscription is not necessary at all.  So I kinda go back and forth.

But also good or bad virtually all our our services do have added costs for extras.  T.V. basic cost, additional channels, pvr, HD... costs more;  Cell phone, basic plan but voice, data... casts more.  Internet basic plan but if I want higher speed, webpage... costs more; Insurance basic plan but want more collision, rental cars... costs more.  So I might just be used to it. 

My only answer is just tell me the model up front, thats all I ask.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  User Deleted
11/21/12 5:17:42 PM#63

Anybody who grew up in arcades like i did knows 15 a month aint shit. Kids these days dont even know haha

  psiicat

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/15/12
Posts: 30

11/21/12 5:29:04 PM#64
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by psiicat

What annoys the total and complete piss out of me are the ones that have subscriptions + cash shop.

Which seems to be the new normal for the industry.

I mean seriously they could at least buy us dinner first

I have to admit I"m of two minds about p2p and cs.  Not about whether I like it or don't but whether I don't like or don't mind it.

On one hand I definately would like to access the whole for one price.

On the other, the price has remained the same for a decade while costs have increasingly gone up (number of taxes, rental property, benefits, dev salaries, office costs...) so I recognize the need or desire for the companies to want to do something to offset those costs.

Then again cs and b2p+cs games are showing us that a subscription is not necessary at all.  So I kinda go back and forth.

But also good or bad virtually all our our services do have added costs for extras.  T.V. basic cost, additional channels, pvr, HD... costs more;  Cell phone, basic plan but voice, data... casts more.  Internet basic plan but if I want higher speed, webpage... costs more; Insurance basic plan but want more collision, rental cars... costs more.  So I might just be used to it. 

My only answer is just tell me the model up front, thats all I ask.

ABSOLUTELY UNTRUE... online gaming is an exception. Almost every cost of bringing a game to market and maintaining it has decreased significantly.  Development costs have dropped drastically to compete with outsourced markets, production costs are pennies on the dollar of what they were even 10 years ago, distribution costs have plummeted as well, bandwidth costs is now almost non exsistant when 15 years ago it was a major expense, hardware costs have increased but when you compare them on a scale of what you get now for your money compared to what you got then, you are getting a way better value now. The only thing that has really increased in costs is marketing and that is simply because media outlets have become greedy little trolls.

  psiicat

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/15/12
Posts: 30

11/21/12 5:30:29 PM#65
Originally posted by Foomerang

Anybody who grew up in arcades like i did knows 15 a month aint shit. Kids these days dont even know haha

LOL I remember sitting there and pissing away $40 in quarters in one night

  Theocritus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/15/08
Posts: 3613

11/21/12 5:30:38 PM#66
     Also quite a few of those 15$ a month games have a box price or download cost or buy latest expansion cost......The games I play are free with no obligations and I play when I feel like it without feeling the need to get my 15 dollars worth....I've tried many of the sub games anyway and just never thought any of them were worth the price.
  User Deleted
11/21/12 5:35:31 PM#67


Originally posted by psiicat

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by psiicat What annoys the total and complete piss out of me are the ones that have subscriptions + cash shop. Which seems to be the new normal for the industry. I mean seriously they could at least buy us dinner first
I have to admit I"m of two minds about p2p and cs.  Not about whether I like it or don't but whether I don't like or don't mind it. On one hand I definately would like to access the whole for one price. On the other, the price has remained the same for a decade while costs have increasingly gone up (number of taxes, rental property, benefits, dev salaries, office costs...) so I recognize the need or desire for the companies to want to do something to offset those costs. Then again cs and b2p+cs games are showing us that a subscription is not necessary at all.  So I kinda go back and forth. But also good or bad virtually all our our services do have added costs for extras.  T.V. basic cost, additional channels, pvr, HD... costs more;  Cell phone, basic plan but voice, data... casts more.  Internet basic plan but if I want higher speed, webpage... costs more; Insurance basic plan but want more collision, rental cars... costs more.  So I might just be used to it.  My only answer is just tell me the model up front, thats all I ask.
ABSOLUTELY UNTRUE... online gaming is an exception. Almost every cost of bringing a game to market and maintaining it has decreased significantly.  Development costs have dropped drastically to compete with outsourced markets, production costs are pennies on the dollar of what they were even 10 years ago, distribution costs have plummeted as well, bandwidth costs is now almost non exsistant when 15 years ago it was a major expense, hardware costs have increased but when you compare them on a scale of what you get now for your money compared to what you got then, you are getting a way better value now. The only thing that has really increased in costs is marketing and that is simply because media outlets have become greedy little trolls.

Uh maybe server maintenance has gone down but game development cost is exponentially higher than it was ten years ago.

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4844

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

11/21/12 5:38:19 PM#68

 

Originally posted by psiicat
 

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by psiicat

What annoys the total and complete piss out of me are the ones that have subscriptions + cash shop.

Which seems to be the new normal for the industry.

I mean seriously they could at least buy us dinner first

I have to admit I"m of two minds about p2p and cs.  Not about whether I like it or don't but whether I don't like or don't mind it.

On one hand I definately would like to access the whole for one price.

On the other, the price has remained the same for a decade while costs have increasingly gone up (number of taxes, rental property, benefits, dev salaries, office costs...) so I recognize the need or desire for the companies to want to do something to offset those costs.

Then again cs and b2p+cs games are showing us that a subscription is not necessary at all.  So I kinda go back and forth.

But also good or bad virtually all our our services do have added costs for extras.  T.V. basic cost, additional channels, pvr, HD... costs more;  Cell phone, basic plan but voice, data... casts more.  Internet basic plan but if I want higher speed, webpage... costs more; Insurance basic plan but want more collision, rental cars... costs more.  So I might just be used to it. 

My only answer is just tell me the model up front, thats all I ask.

ABSOLUTELY UNTRUE... online gaming is an exception. Almost every cost of bringing a game to market and maintaining it has decreased significantly.  Development costs have dropped drastically to compete with outsourced markets, production costs are pennies on the dollar of what they were even 10 years ago, distribution costs have plummeted as well, bandwidth costs is now almost non exsistant when 15 years ago it was a major expense, hardware costs have increased but when you compare them on a scale of what you get now for your money compared to what you got then, you are getting a way better value now. The only thing that has really increased in costs is marketing and that is simply because media outlets have become greedy little trolls.

Actually no.  Only the technical aspects of bringing a game to market have gone down.  All the other costs have gone up (retail space has increased, develers salaries have increased, benefits have increased, office supply costs have increased) and the human component is by far the biggest costs for a company those have all increased. 

Bandwidth and distribution is definatley a cost however the human costs are almost always the biggest cost for a company and those have all increased. 

So why should a gaming service be different than my cell phone, internet, insurance, TV service?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_industry

Early on, development costs were minimal, and video games could be quite profitable. Games developed by a single programmer, or by a small team of programmers and artists, could sell hundreds of thousands of copies each. Many of these games only took a few months to create, so developers could release several titles each year. Thus, publishers could often be generous with benefits, such as royalties on the games sold. Many early game publishers started from this economic climate, such as Origin Systems, Sierra Entertainment, Capcom, Activision and Electronic Arts.

As computing and graphics power increased, so too did the size of development teams, as larger staffs were needed to address the ever increasing graphical and programming complexities. Now budgets can easily reach millions of dollars, even if middleware and pre-built game engines are used. Most professional games require one to three years to develop, further increasing the strain on budgets.

 

 

http://seekingalpha.com/article/89124-the-video-game-industry-an-18-billion-entertainment-juggernaut

Aside from the tremendous time that goes into the coding and construction, labor is the largest cost in producing a game. Programmers can make $90k annually, or more. With the ability to locate offices in economical locations, and the ability to sublet work wherever it's cost efficient, the game industry can produce games for less.

 

 

 

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4844

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

11/21/12 5:39:47 PM#69
Originally posted by psiicat
Originally posted by Foomerang

Anybody who grew up in arcades like i did knows 15 a month aint shit. Kids these days dont even know haha

LOL I remember sitting there and pissing away $40 in quarters in one night

Anyone remember Black Tiger :)

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Ghavrigg

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/10/12
Posts: 723

11/21/12 5:41:35 PM#70
Originally posted by KhinRunite

$15 is less than what I actually pay monthly for my broadband connection, which is at $20. It's just about the same price I play for my cellphone plan.

I'm a  videogamer, but I guess I'm not really a MMO gamer at heart; I like to play all kinds of videogames and not just be tied to one or two. MMOs tend to take most of your time, especially your game time. I don't feel like I want to subscribe to something I wouldn't be playing for the most of my gaming time, or I fear that if I subscribed, I will be inclined to focus on just this one game and pass on the other ones that come along. It would feel like a sting to see that $15 bill at the end of every month for something you don't get to use as often as your internet or your phone.

Of course all that will go out the window if I find the one game worth subscribing to, but my standards are high.

Man, things are cheap where you live. My internet costs $35/month or so, and my phone is $62/month, and they're both pretty basic.

  psiicat

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/15/12
Posts: 30

11/21/12 5:41:36 PM#71
Originally posted by Foomerang

 


Originally posted by psiicat

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by psiicat What annoys the total and complete piss out of me are the ones that have subscriptions + cash shop. Which seems to be the new normal for the industry. I mean seriously they could at least buy us dinner first
I have to admit I"m of two minds about p2p and cs.  Not about whether I like it or don't but whether I don't like or don't mind it. On one hand I definately would like to access the whole for one price. On the other, the price has remained the same for a decade while costs have increasingly gone up (number of taxes, rental property, benefits, dev salaries, office costs...) so I recognize the need or desire for the companies to want to do something to offset those costs. Then again cs and b2p+cs games are showing us that a subscription is not necessary at all.  So I kinda go back and forth. But also good or bad virtually all our our services do have added costs for extras.  T.V. basic cost, additional channels, pvr, HD... costs more;  Cell phone, basic plan but voice, data... casts more.  Internet basic plan but if I want higher speed, webpage... costs more; Insurance basic plan but want more collision, rental cars... costs more.  So I might just be used to it.  My only answer is just tell me the model up front, thats all I ask.
ABSOLUTELY UNTRUE... online gaming is an exception. Almost every cost of bringing a game to market and maintaining it has decreased significantly.  Development costs have dropped drastically to compete with outsourced markets, production costs are pennies on the dollar of what they were even 10 years ago, distribution costs have plummeted as well, bandwidth costs is now almost non exsistant when 15 years ago it was a major expense, hardware costs have increased but when you compare them on a scale of what you get now for your money compared to what you got then, you are getting a way better value now. The only thing that has really increased in costs is marketing and that is simply because media outlets have become greedy little trolls.

 

Uh maybe server maintenance has gone down but game development cost is exponentially higher than it was ten years ago.

Don't know who you are working for but where my hubby works they cut wages 30% across the board and put a 5 year pay freeze in place. The option was to have another parking lot pinkslip party and send all the work to India.

  User Deleted
11/21/12 5:48:08 PM#72


Originally posted by psiicat

Originally posted by Foomerang  

Originally posted by psiicat

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by psiicat What annoys the total and complete piss out of me are the ones that have subscriptions + cash shop. Which seems to be the new normal for the industry. I mean seriously they could at least buy us dinner first
I have to admit I"m of two minds about p2p and cs.  Not about whether I like it or don't but whether I don't like or don't mind it. On one hand I definately would like to access the whole for one price. On the other, the price has remained the same for a decade while costs have increasingly gone up (number of taxes, rental property, benefits, dev salaries, office costs...) so I recognize the need or desire for the companies to want to do something to offset those costs. Then again cs and b2p+cs games are showing us that a subscription is not necessary at all.  So I kinda go back and forth. But also good or bad virtually all our our services do have added costs for extras.  T.V. basic cost, additional channels, pvr, HD... costs more;  Cell phone, basic plan but voice, data... casts more.  Internet basic plan but if I want higher speed, webpage... costs more; Insurance basic plan but want more collision, rental cars... costs more.  So I might just be used to it.  My only answer is just tell me the model up front, thats all I ask.
ABSOLUTELY UNTRUE... online gaming is an exception. Almost every cost of bringing a game to market and maintaining it has decreased significantly.  Development costs have dropped drastically to compete with outsourced markets, production costs are pennies on the dollar of what they were even 10 years ago, distribution costs have plummeted as well, bandwidth costs is now almost non exsistant when 15 years ago it was a major expense, hardware costs have increased but when you compare them on a scale of what you get now for your money compared to what you got then, you are getting a way better value now. The only thing that has really increased in costs is marketing and that is simply because media outlets have become greedy little trolls.
  Uh maybe server maintenance has gone down but game development cost is exponentially higher than it was ten years ago.
Don't know who you are working for but where my hubby works they cut wages 30% across the board and put a 5 year pay freeze in place. The option was to have another parking lot pinkslip party and send all the work to India.

Im sorry to hear that :( but thats the exception to the rule. Look up game development costs over the years it documents a different story. Average game cost in 2000 was 1-4 million. Average in 2010 was 20 million and its still growing.

  User Deleted
11/21/12 5:53:05 PM#73


Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by psiicat

Originally posted by Foomerang Anybody who grew up in arcades like i did knows 15 a month aint shit. Kids these days dont even know haha
LOL I remember sitting there and pissing away $40 in quarters in one night
Anyone remember Black Tiger :)


Yeah haha. Man all of those capcom side scroller beat em ups drained so many quarters. Then street fighter 2 and the fighting game craze....so many quarters and tokens lol

Ive probably put more than a few sega and capcom employees kids through college.

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4844

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

11/21/12 5:53:07 PM#74
Originally posted by Foomerang

 


Originally posted by psiicat

Originally posted by Foomerang  

Originally posted by psiicat

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by psiicat What annoys the total and complete piss out of me are the ones that have subscriptions + cash shop. Which seems to be the new normal for the industry. I mean seriously they could at least buy us dinner first
I have to admit I"m of two minds about p2p and cs.  Not about whether I like it or don't but whether I don't like or don't mind it. On one hand I definately would like to access the whole for one price. On the other, the price has remained the same for a decade while costs have increasingly gone up (number of taxes, rental property, benefits, dev salaries, office costs...) so I recognize the need or desire for the companies to want to do something to offset those costs. Then again cs and b2p+cs games are showing us that a subscription is not necessary at all.  So I kinda go back and forth. But also good or bad virtually all our our services do have added costs for extras.  T.V. basic cost, additional channels, pvr, HD... costs more;  Cell phone, basic plan but voice, data... casts more.  Internet basic plan but if I want higher speed, webpage... costs more; Insurance basic plan but want more collision, rental cars... costs more.  So I might just be used to it.  My only answer is just tell me the model up front, thats all I ask.
ABSOLUTELY UNTRUE... online gaming is an exception. Almost every cost of bringing a game to market and maintaining it has decreased significantly.  Development costs have dropped drastically to compete with outsourced markets, production costs are pennies on the dollar of what they were even 10 years ago, distribution costs have plummeted as well, bandwidth costs is now almost non exsistant when 15 years ago it was a major expense, hardware costs have increased but when you compare them on a scale of what you get now for your money compared to what you got then, you are getting a way better value now. The only thing that has really increased in costs is marketing and that is simply because media outlets have become greedy little trolls.
  Uh maybe server maintenance has gone down but game development cost is exponentially higher than it was ten years ago.
Don't know who you are working for but where my hubby works they cut wages 30% across the board and put a 5 year pay freeze in place. The option was to have another parking lot pinkslip party and send all the work to India.

 

Im sorry to hear that :( but thats the exception to the rule. Look up game development costs over the years it documents a different story. Average game cost in 2000 was 1-4 million. Average in 2010 was 20 million and its still growing.

Or maybe that isn't the exception (well the wages going down is but hear me out).  Why did they have to reduce wages?  Possibly because costs of game development have increased to the point the company felt they had to do something to drive down costs.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  c0bra9009

Novice Member

Joined: 3/01/08
Posts: 1

11/21/12 7:22:46 PM#75
Originally posted by Rydeson

my 2 cents..

     First, the cost of $15 is not a problem if ALL you plan on doing is playing one game at a time..  Some do that, and some don't.. I'm one of those some don't kind of guys..  There are days I feel like Sci Fi, and there are days I feel like super hero and other days I feel LoTRish, GW2ish or even WoW ish.. etc etc..  With a subscription plan like SOE loves to do, or Blizzard or Trion, etc, they are basically encouraging you to exclusively play their game only..  The reason why I own 1 car is because of cost..  Now someone like me that likes to play maybe 3, 4 or 5 different games a month, I'm sure as hell not going to fork out $15 for each one of them... That excuse of it's only $15 goes right out the window.. Tell us how easy it is to shell out $100 a month for gaming?  I personally LOVE the B2P model that GW2 is using.. I wish ALL games followed that format.. I play it casually, sometimes only once or twice a week and NEVER feel that I'm wasting money on something I'm not playing..

     As for my thoughts of $15.. I think that is just a lame excuse waste of money cash cow for the devs that can get away with it.. Back in the day it was mostly justified, but nowadays I think it's just excess profit..  It has become normal and standard policy to charge a sub for a MMO, and the general public accepts it as such.. I don't, not anymore.. Remember when it used to be normal for cars to charge you extra for automatic, FM radio etc etc.. Those are now standard and are a insignificant cost of the car and for good reason..

     As a result.. I no longer play EQ2, EQ1, WoW, Rift, LoTRO and SWTOR because of their subscription plans.. Their F2P models are insane, and I'm not going to pay a $15 sub for each and every one of them.. So I play GW2 exclusively for now.. I have yet to buy one thing from Arenanet, and only have 1 character to 80th, and still exploring.. 

Shelling out 100.00 a month is not a problem for some, I can spend more than that in 1 night at the local bar. I actually have subs to Wow, Rift, SWTOR, Secret World and EQ2 and some I have not played in months but they are available when I get ready to play. I bought the WoW Panda expansion but have not actually logged in and played it yet because I have been busy in SWTOR  and Rift for the last 3 months but when I get ready too login I can. Actually my WoW sub has been active since the day they went live so hopefully i have helped some Blizzard devs pay their rent lol.

Some may see that as a waste of a monthly fee but honestly I see it as a way to support the companies who make the games I enjoy. As a business owner myself I know you have to make money to stay in business and I have many clients who pay me monthly to keep a contract that states I will fix their computer / server within 24 hours of it crashing. Some of those companies have not used my service for 6+ months but they still pay me monthly because they know if I go out of business then they have to look for someone else to do their repairs and they know my quality of service and I already know their systems, software and have keys and access / alarm  codes to their buildings so they support me because its cheaper than finding and training a new person to take over. Its the same with me supporting the MMO companies I enjoy. I know them, enjoy them and feel comfortable playing them so i pay them to help them stay in business.

I know some people due to the economy consider 15.00 a month a lot and where they live that 15.00 will buy more than it does in other areas like where I live 15.00 is a trip to Whataburger and if you decide to eat at one of the upscale places in this city you will be lucky to walk out with a bill under 150.00 per person. Several nightclubs here charge you 25.00 on weekends just to walk in the door, a trip to see the latest movie will easily cost you 40.00 or more per person when you include ticket price and food. So yeah 15.00 or even 100.00 a month is very cheap entertainment for me for 24/7 access. I am glad there are some FTP games because I know not everyone can shell out a monthly fee but honestly I have tried all the FTP including GW2 and they just did not grab my attention, they seemed less polished than a sub based game and like in GW2 I got tired of buying keys to open lockbox's or other cash shop items. I prefer to have everything I need included in my monthly fee no matter what that fee is.

It just depends on what you like and what you can afford. Some like FTP games and refuse to pay a monthly sub and some people prefer paying a sub over buying cash shop items which is why we have games catering to both types of gamers. I see it as whatever you enjoy doing then do it, some may agree with you and some will not but if it brings you fun and entertainment then why worry about what others think? If you see a monthly sub as a cash grab for the companies and don't agree with it then there are plenty of games out there who do not require you to pay that fee but some of us have no problem supporting a game we enjoy. In the end its all about having fun and playing what you enjoy.

  darkhalf357x

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/25/12
Posts: 1109

I'm only playing the role chosen for me. Who you supposed to be?

11/21/12 7:28:49 PM#76
Originally posted by Strycker

This will be a short, little post/rant.

 

Something that has been bugging me the last year or two in the industry is the freemium and B2P model taking off. This is my personal opinion: I think their downright awful (Freemium more than B2P). Yet this isn't the part that really makes me boil, but this huge populatiuon of people popping up stating that it's a A) Barrier of entry and B) Any "sub game" (mentioned almost as a blasphemous term these days) will result in failure in an adjusting market.

 

I'm not going to sit here and make a pros and cons list of each BUT;

When I pay my $15 a month I:

 

- Don't have to actively be reminded I'm spending money on a game regularly (And certaintly not in seperate installments every week).

 

- KNOW that I'll have access to ALL the current  and upcoming content without having to do a damn thing.

 

- My immersion stays intact without seeing: "You have to spend X to unlock Hotbar 2 or Bagslot 6".

 

- In terms of barrier to entry: There's trials for just about every MMO, even free clients to level X. Hell, in RIft's example, buying the game is cheaper for the first month than paying the sub would be!

 

- It's FIFTEEN dollars a month; I know people are from different incomes, areas, etc , but comeon here. When I was 14 I could put aside fifteen dollars a month for an MMO, and now that I'm a broke college student fending for myself - I'm still capable and happily willing to put aside fifteen dollars for a vice that offers hundreds of more hours and more variety than most.

 

That last point just leads me to believe that stereotypes revolving around gamers, specifically MMOers, is true:

We're fat, lazy, and broke kids who sit around all day jobless.

 

Hardy har har, Netflix should be freemium and you buy movies individually instead of being charged 7.99-14.99 a month!

I prefer freemium / B2P / whateve you call it over sub.   Paying a sub doesn't gaurentee quality and even if it did it doesnt equate to value.   I like the idea of paying nothing to try out the game, see the ins and outs, and if I like it I dont mind dropping pennies in the cash shop for a mount or extra bag space.  

If you feel F2P is really that bad just pay 15/month in the cash shop.  I rather save my money and spend it on features/options I will *actually* play.

SWTOR is a perfect example.  Decent game now that its free.  I will never play in the Warzone or do Flashpoints so why should I pay for them?  People who love those features should pay for it/support it.   I just want to play the 8 stories and I will probably be done with it.  And if I enjoy the stories I'll probably spend in the cash shop for extra quick bars.  Still cheaper than 15/month.

  Pratt2112

Elite Member

Joined: 2/12/12
Posts: 1192

11/21/12 7:39:30 PM#77
Originally posted by Loktofeit
 

You don't quite understand 'barrier to entry'.

Every step in the funnel toward getting a person into the game is a barrier to entry. One of the reasons many subscription games moved the credit card info off the free trial was because that, too, was a barrier to entry.  It was another step in the process of getting into the game. For most remaining subscription MMOs, the entire trial signup process has even been reduced to one single page (ex: WOW, EVE) to reduce the steps along the way to get people into the game. The barrier isn't the amount of money, rather the extra step and extra decision in that process (for either box fee or subscription fee) when trying the game. It does not refer to monthly cost or financial ability to handle ongoing payments.

For the other points, it's rather clear you don't have any interest in an answer other than RAWR UR RIGHT RAWR, so I won't suffer you through any counterpoints on them.

 

I wouldn't call what F2P MMOs have as a "barrier to entry". They are certainly, for me, a "barrier to enjoyment"

In a typical P2P/Sub-based MMO I pay my monthly sub, $13-$15 per month, and that's it. After that I log in and whatever is in the game is available to me by playing the game, finishing a quest, crafting, buying it from a NPC or another player with in-game currency that I earned in-game, by playing it. If there's a way to travel around faster, it's available in-game by playing the game. If there's a way to expand inventory, it's available in-game, by playing the game. If there's a cool looking outfit I'd like to use in my social slots, it's available in-game by playing the game. The XP curve is set to be steep enough to prevent me from just bouncing through levels at a break-neck pace, but I'm not going to be hindered by an overly-steep xp curve either.

Now, in F2P MMOs.. If I want that extra inventory space - which I will, because by design, those types of MMOs will make sure to pack your bags with as much "necessary crap" as they can. They pack in just enough to be sufficiently inconvenient, so you'll check out that nifty inventory slot expansion they're selling. The inventory screens in a number of such F2P MMOs will actually *show you* when you open your bags, just how limited your space is. You'll see your available slots/bags, and then you'll also see some tabs or extra slots which are conspicuously locked. You can't use them, so why put them there? Oh yeah, to remind you that "hey, look at all this extra space! It could be yours! Just click here to visit the cash shop and buy your inventory expansion today!"

In a F2P/P2P MMO, they will deliberately stunt your travel speed, providing you slow, rather dull-looking mounts "for free", so you can get a taste of what it's like to move faster than foot-speed.. but stll not as fast as those fancy, much faster and far cooler-looking mounts you see others on. You can even go look at them... Now wouldn't it be cool if you could have a mount like that? You can! Just click on this nifty button and you'll be taken straight to the cash shop where you can buy one!

What? You're finding the xp curve becoming unbearably steep as you go? The levels are just not coming nearly as quickly as they used to, and are only getting slower? It's even slower than the slowest P2P MMO you've ever played? Well you can get those nifty xp potions that drop off mobs in-game. Oh... you mean they don't last long enough and the xp bonus just isn't good? Well, lucky for you, we have these nifty xp potions in the cash shop that are far more potent than anything you'll get in-game. You'll be back to leveling along at a much faster pace.. and when you run out... Just buy more!

And so on... and so on... and so on...

F2P MMOs are designed to make things as inconvenient, slow and otherwise stunted as they can, all in the service of getting as many people as they can to the cash shop, as much as possible, to spend as much as possible.

When I'm running into speed-bumps, obstacles and pot-holes that are specifically designed to slow me down or make my playtime less enjoyable... all so I can be tempted to go buy some nifty items inthe cash shop that just happen  to remedy those very same speedbumps, pot-holes and obstacles...? Yeah, that's a barrier to fun for me.

My options are: Suck it up and get used to playing at a slower pace than I'd like, carrying less than I'd like, traveling slower than I like, and leveling at a snail's pace.  Or, open the wallet, buy some points and start buying my way past all those annoyances.

Of course, I choose option C: Say "screw that" to all of those games and play a game where the only thing I'll be required to pay is my initial box fee, and then $15 a month to play as much as I want, at whatever pace I want.. without ever running into arbitrary barriers designed specifically to squeeze more money out of me.

 

"Devs need to stop trying to make MMOs for people who don't like MMOs" - thevampirelematt/Reddit

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19148

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

11/21/12 7:41:58 PM#78
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Strycker

This will be a short, little post/rant.

Something that has been bugging me the last year or two in the industry is the freemium and B2P model taking off. This is my personal opinion: I think their downright awful (Freemium more than B2P). Yet this isn't the part that really makes me boil, but this huge populatiuon of people popping up stating that it's a A) Barrier of entry and B) Any "sub game" (mentioned almost as a blasphemous term these days) will result in failure in an adjusting market.

I'm not going to sit here and make a pros and cons list of each BUT;

When I pay my $15 a month I:

- Don't have to actively be reminded I'm spending money on a game regularly (And certaintly not in seperate installments every week).

- KNOW that I'll have access to ALL the current  and upcoming content without having to do a damn thing.

- My immersion stays intact without seeing: "You have to spend X to unlock Hotbar 2 or Bagslot 6".

- In terms of barrier to entry: There's trials for just about every MMO, even free clients to level X. Hell, in RIft's example, buying the game is cheaper for the first month than paying the sub would be!

- It's FIFTEEN dollars a month; I know people are from different incomes, areas, etc , but comeon here. When I was 14 I could put aside fifteen dollars a month for an MMO, and now that I'm a broke college student fending for myself - I'm still capable and happily willing to put aside fifteen dollars for a vice that offers hundreds of more hours and more variety than most.

That last point just leads me to believe that stereotypes revolving around gamers, specifically MMOers, is true:

We're fat, lazy, and broke kids who sit around all day jobless.

Hardy har har, Netflix should be freemium and you buy movies individually instead of being charged 7.99-14.99 a month!

You don't quite understand 'barrier to entry'.

Every step in the funnel toward getting a person into the game is a barrier to entry. One of the reasons many subscription games moved the credit card info off the free trial was because that, too, was a barrier to entry.  It was another step in the process of getting into the game. For most remaining subscription MMOs, the entire trial signup process has even been reduced to one single page (ex: WOW, EVE) to reduce the steps along the way to get people into the game. The barrier isn't the amount of money, rather the extra step and extra decision in that process (for either box fee or subscription fee) when trying the game. It does not refer to monthly cost or financial ability to handle ongoing payments.

For the other points, it's rather clear you don't have any interest in an answer other than RAWR UR RIGHT RAWR, so I won't suffer you through any counterpoints on them.

 

Well, in truth, you don't have any other counterpoints since most of what he wrote is his personal preference which of course isn't universally shared with others. In his own mind, he is generally right.


Kyleran, "I don't like F2P" is personal preference.  "In subscription I have access to all the content for my 15 dollars" is not a statement of preference but a statement of fact, and it's false for the majority of sub-based games out there.

"Selling me things in the middle of my video game breaks my immersion" is personal preference. His statement infers that F2P has intrusive ads or immersion-breaking content like that in game. That is false. Kyleran, his stance could have easily been "When I pay my $15 a month Aunt Sally doesn't catch fire." Much like Aunt Sally catching fire, F2P games don't have ads popping up everywhere trying to get you to buy stuff while you're playing.

 

But, if we're going to run with the contention that if he's right in his own mind then he's right, then I guess you are correct, and it would be silly of me to present a position to the contrary. :)

Actually, while your statement was true when I played L2, there were some other titles I tried that actually did have in game pop-ups while I played.  There are no absolutes of coursoe, and your right, I can't think of a recent sub based game that didnt have some sort of item in it that could only be obtained by buying it there.

Arrogant, Condescending, Dismissive, Elitist, you speak as if these are bad things?
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  rdrakken

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/15/12
Posts: 435

11/21/12 7:46:36 PM#79

I dont care if its $15 a month or $2 a month, if it isnt WORTH it, im not paying it. How much I make a year has nothing to do with it, I dont piss away money.

I sure as hell am not going to give funds to a company that is no longer capable of making a decent game or as it seems with SWTOR, a decent business decision...seriously, a game that failed to keep a majority of players and its a good idea to chop the game into pieces asking people to PAY to unlock some of it...lol.

There is not one single freemium game that has come close to the revenue of the major F2P games dispite many of the freemiums being of FAR BETTER QUALITY...why is that? How can say, Atlantica Online which when it comes right down to it...is total crap...how can that game make over 200 million dollars a YEAR for the company and a high quality detailed game like Age of Conan barely budge Funcoms income? Hell, the company doesnt even make 200 million a year with ALL their games....

And for anyone doubting what I said...go look at yearly report of Nexon Corporations to see how much the game has made for them, that Corporation has 1.12 BILLION a year profits and just over 50% of it is coming in from FREE games...Compare that to EA and its 1.43 billion last year.

  KhinRunite

Novice Member

Joined: 11/05/10
Posts: 897

11/21/12 7:59:52 PM#80
Seriously, you'd have to be born yesterday or something if you're turned off by the fact that "Free-2-Play" equates to "Pay-as-you-go". Obviously the company is running a business. F2P favors casuals, who don't have the "must have it all" mentality in order to enjoy the game. Conversely, it shafts the hardcore gamers because you'll end up spending way more money than on a P2P game.
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