Originally posted by nariusseldon

I would disagree on one point though. Long-lasting is not necessarily better.

I like Dishonored MUCH better than Skyrim because it does not drone on and on, and you get to see the ending (which is great) and now i can play more games.

Skyrim just took too long. The only type of games that i can play for long term (>3 months) is those where combat itself is fun enough that i don't mind a lot of repetition, and there is enough progression (like Diablo 3 or Borderlands). Skyrim's combat is pretty meh compared to those. Skyrim combat is not even as interesting as WOW, from my point of view.

Actually i think there are many good SP games, and i never have enough time to play them all .. just a few series that i like:

- Diablo, of course.

- Borderland (haven't finished 2 yet)

- Dishonored (very good new entry)

- Deus Ex

- COD

- Dead Space (amazing series)

- Spec Ops (way under-rated game)

- Bioshock (of course)

- Red Faction

.... and i haven't even listed the smaller games like TL2 or infinity blade.

Gaming is pretty good.

I meant long lasting in the sense that there is enough to do in a particular game to warrant you wanting to stick around for the long-term.  Long before MMOs came along, we had MUDs and similar games and there were some of those games that I stuck with for over a decade each.  The longest that I remember, I played for 16 years.  They had huge expansive stories, the people were great (something entirely lacking in modern MMOs), the combat was entertaining but it wasn't all that you did.  Modern games really are combat-heavy, often to the point of having little outside of it.  Most modern games have a very limited number of things that you can do and seriously, there are only so many monsters I can swing a sword at or aliens I can shoot a ray gun at before I get bored with it.  Some of those games above are excellent, I will agree, but when you get to the end and then what?  Wait for the next one?  Go get another game?  Learn a new set of controls?  Lather, rinse, repeat?

I'd much rather have a game that is constantly evolving, constantly changing, that has a huge group of people you actually care about and want to be around (doesn't happen in modern MMOs, biggest problem), where every day you log on, something new and different is happening, there's something new to see and someone new worth meeting.  That kind of thing doesn't exist in an MMO today, nor do I think it's ever likely to.  That's what keeps us consuming single player games at high speed, I've played through the majority of games you've listed, at least to the extent that I never have to play with a bunch of foul-mouthed 10-year olds who want to pwn your ass and laugh at you, I'm still hungry for more.

Where Skyrim and Fallout 3 excelled is that they weren't just about combat, there were tons of things you could do, there were tons of places you could explore, you determined how well your character did by what skills you chose to develop, etc.  I probably played Skyrim for 4-5 months, I beat every questline, I explored every dungeon, I saw every inch of the map and I wanted more.  I don't get that feeling in most games.  For most, once they're over, I move on and may come back to replay a year or two down the road.  For both Skyrim and Fallout 3, I didn't want it to end, I spent weeks after finishing wanting to load it back up and spend more time in that world.

But those games are very few and very, very far between.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Axxar
I really enjoyed Skyrim. I didn't think the story or combat system were particularly great, and the characters you meet are very shallow. But the world they've scupted is fantastic, with great attention to detail. It was a joy to explore and behold.

It was fun for me for a while .. but it got too repetitive and traveling became a chore. Thus, i never finish it.

I prefer games like Deus Ex or Dishonored where the core gameplay is fun, and interesting things happen all the time.

Seriously, how can travel in Skyrim be a chore when you can fast-travel to anyplace you've ever been?  You have to go somewhere else, look at the map, pick the closest place you've ever been, teleport there and run for a minute or two.  Once I've done some basic exploring of the world, I can get to any point on the map in no more than 60 seconds.

Aye, you know, i leave World of Warcraft due to boredom (recently due to server emptiness) and blizzard wont do anything because they have a £15 per character cost to move, multiply that by 10 characters and thats £150 to change server, way too much of a cost.

Anyways what gets me is everytime i hope something new has come out it turns out to be an utter load of cr@p, in fact i would not even wipe my own ass with it, good for 1-2 mths and then you dont wanna touch it again and warcraft is there, calling you back everytime.

Have all the developers stopped thinking thesedays as i really would have thought that the mmorpg era would have improved and not declined over the years. Maybe the PC is not dead, maybe its the crap that is constantly comming out to blame. If something good finally comes out it will topple the leading games and you dont have to spend millions on the game either, especially voive acting.

You dont have to have 20+ differant class's either, just the basic's each with a choice iof 2 routes to go, eg

Warrior - DpS (2 handed weapon only users), Tank (1 handed+ shield)

Mage - (Fire or Water)

Wizard - (Earthen or Storm) elementalist

Priest - (Healing or Battle)

Rogue - (Ranger or Stalker)

Here are some other idea's of possibly making a new game.

Graphics to run smooth and look nice. Also must be able to be updated as most games comming out soon look dated and old after a year or 2. Offputting straight away and many tend to not stick around.

Have it so that the mouse buttons use the item in the relevant hand (e.g right mouse = right hand, left mouse = left hand) though users can set this out. FFA meaning players can kill dfeta other players, once defeated they have a choice to kill them or let them live) letting them live only allows them to take 10-20% of gold that they are carrying (most will have it banked) and a chance for items to drop from their bags (not person) but it would also not cost as must in infamy in that region (when it gets high it starts to affect surrounding area's to that zone and can quickly spread) killing a player will allow all gold carried and a chance of items to drop from their body as well as being able to loot whats in their bags too, howevere this would have severe repurcusions and a huge infamy increase in that zone and surrounding zones too. Players takign this route should be warned that it will be extreamly long and costly to lose any infamy gained. Maybe only allow 1 character per server to stop players from having a gankjing character on said server (unless they maintain more than 1 account).

Guilds can start their own village up and build it were ever they want (but not too close to other players or NPC cities, eventually having a circle form and grow bigger the bigger that guild/clan/allaince becomes). Buildings can be leveled up but would cost alot of resources (better the quality the fewer it will take). Cave/mine/dungeon/tower systems can go as far as 100-200 levels. Monsters respawn every 1-2 hours, boss's every 6-12hrs. Guilds can have their own instance worlds for these once they unlock them and every 25-30 levels then can gather resources and create an encampment that will allow portal to that level.

All can Harvest wood/ores/fish/stone etc. But one can only have 1 craft skill so a metalsmith would make metal items that a blacksmith would use and a woodsmith would make items that a carpenter would use etc.

Torch's to be used in caves/dungeons/mines etc (Priest and Mage probably be able to have a light spell), ores to be found in cave's and mine's. Not nodes scattered around teh gameworld. Have these also be found with quality so a quality 3 would not be as good a sa quality 7. Deeper you go the better the metals is found and the better chance for quality and minerals.

Lots of other things can be done too. If the game was done right i would have no problem paying a monthly subscription. Right now most out there are not worth that cost. Warcraft is now feeling old and dumbed down.

Originally posted by ForTheCity
I think there is a bigger majority who like "games" such as halo, mario, etc because they don't really need to think. The story is thought out for them so they just do as they are told. When people play games they want to relax and I think thats why people prefer these types of games instead of open world.

Open world does not necessarily mean more thinking. EQ is open world but grinding for xp is boring. The same mobs again and again. Where is the thinking?

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Axxar
I really enjoyed Skyrim. I didn't think the story or combat system were particularly great, and the characters you meet are very shallow. But the world they've scupted is fantastic, with great attention to detail. It was a joy to explore and behold.

It was fun for me for a while .. but it got too repetitive and traveling became a chore. Thus, i never finish it.

I prefer games like Deus Ex or Dishonored where the core gameplay is fun, and interesting things happen all the time.

Seriously, how can travel in Skyrim be a chore when you can fast-travel to anyplace you've ever been?  You have to go somewhere else, look at the map, pick the closest place you've ever been, teleport there and run for a minute or two.  Once I've done some basic exploring of the world, I can get to any point on the map in no more than 60 seconds.

You have to be there first. Some of the travelling .. say to north (i remember going to the mage college or something) ... too much walking around the same kind of terrain.

Originally posted by Cephus404

 

I meant long lasting in the sense that there is enough to do in a particular game to warrant you wanting to stick around for the long-term.  Long before MMOs came along, we had MUDs and similar games and there were some of those games that I stuck with for over a decade each.  The longest that I remember, I played for 16 years.  They had huge expansive stories, the people were great (something entirely lacking in modern MMOs), the combat was entertaining but it wasn't all that you did.  Modern games really are combat-heavy, often to the point of having little outside of it.  Most modern games have a very limited number of things that you can do and seriously, there are only so many monsters I can swing a sword at or aliens I can shoot a ray gun at before I get bored with it.  Some of those games above are excellent, I will agree, but when you get to the end and then what?  Wait for the next one?  Go get another game?  Learn a new set of controls?  Lather, rinse, repeat?

I played MUDs too .. none held my interests for more than a few hours. When i "get to the end"? I move on to another. Just look at the list i posted ... last many many weeks particularly when i have a job and a family.

Learn new set of controls? Most games have similar controls. R-stick to look, L to move. X to interact/reload ... most modern games took 2 min to learn.

I'd much rather have a game that is constantly evolving, constantly changing, that has a huge group of people you actually care about and want to be around (doesn't happen in modern MMOs, biggest problem), where every day you log on, something new and different is happening, there's something new to see and someone new worth meeting.  That kind of thing doesn't exist in an MMO today, nor do I think it's ever likely to.  That's what keeps us consuming single player games at high speed, I've played through the majority of games you've listed, at least to the extent that I never have to play with a bunch of foul-mouthed 10-year olds who want to pwn your ass and laugh at you, I'm still hungry for more.

Then you play too fast. I found myself not enough time to get through the games i like to. Skyrim & ME are too long .. even Borderlands 2 i am not done yet.

Constantly changing? You can accomplish that simply by moving to new games (MMO or not).

Where Skyrim and Fallout 3 excelled is that they weren't just about combat, there were tons of things you could do, there were tons of places you could explore, you determined how well your character did by what skills you chose to develop, etc.  I probably played Skyrim for 4-5 months, I beat every questline, I explored every dungeon, I saw every inch of the map and I wanted more.  I don't get that feeling in most games.  For most, once they're over, I move on and may come back to replay a year or two down the road.  For both Skyrim and Fallout 3, I didn't want it to end, I spent weeks after finishing wanting to load it back up and spend more time in that world.

The problem with those games is that if combat is not compelling, it got boring for me. The only other type of gameplay i found compeling is stealth & hacking like in Deus Ex (but that is a kind of combat too). Crafting is boring to me. Exploring .. only if there are really interesting thing to see. Another mile of similar hills does not count.

But those games are very few and very, very far between.

I think because it is not efficient. Making a huge world size like SKYRIM is expensive, even with automation tools. And the pay off is not that great. If they make the towns 20% closer (so less wilderness), i doubt if 99% of the players will notice. I certainly won't care.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Cephus404

Seriously, how can travel in Skyrim be a chore when you can fast-travel to anyplace you've ever been?  You have to go somewhere else, look at the map, pick the closest place you've ever been, teleport there and run for a minute or two.  Once I've done some basic exploring of the world, I can get to any point on the map in no more than 60 seconds.

You have to be there first. Some of the travelling .. say to north (i remember going to the mage college or something) ... too much walking around the same kind of terrain.

LOL. Mind boggingly ridiculous!

I honestly won't be surprised if in a couple of years we start seeing posts expressing how it's just too much of a chore to walk to the location of the PC and actually take the time to press the power button. 

It's coming boys and girls and you heard it here first. 

You people want worlds ?

Here's a world, go check out Star Citizen kickstarter, and check out the pdf for the Millenium Falcon/Firefly(Serenity) ship, and general mechanics of the game, Star Citizen + Occulus Rift+ good Joystick is the closest we gamers will get to a world this decade probably, ...

No advertising no, nothing, read the website, read the kickstarter, read the updates, read the stretch goals, watch the in-game trailer, read the constellation ship pdf and decide for yourself.

Originally posted by ShakyMo
Cerc
And yet this guy will click click click his way through the same dungeon over and over in diablo for hundreds of hours ?!?!

...does not compute...does not compute...

I have now entered The Twilight Zone.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Axxar
I really enjoyed Skyrim. I didn't think the story or combat system were particularly great, and the characters you meet are very shallow. But the world they've scupted is fantastic, with great attention to detail. It was a joy to explore and behold.

It was fun for me for a while .. but it got too repetitive and traveling became a chore. Thus, i never finish it.

I prefer games like Deus Ex or Dishonored where the core gameplay is fun, and interesting things happen all the time.

Seriously, how can travel in Skyrim be a chore when you can fast-travel to anyplace you've ever been?  You have to go somewhere else, look at the map, pick the closest place you've ever been, teleport there and run for a minute or two.  Once I've done some basic exploring of the world, I can get to any point on the map in no more than 60 seconds.

You have to be there first. Some of the travelling .. say to north (i remember going to the mage college or something) ... too much walking around the same kind of terrain.

You will probably laugh, but I completed the game without ever using fast travelling, except to recover a horse I couldn't find - then I would fast travel to my current location to make it appear again.

Saying it again, R.I.P. SWG.

She had the casual Tuesday content, she had the hardcore friday content. It had to critical crafting and the off line harvesting. Miss ya.

Originally posted by free2play

Saying it again, R.I.P. SWG.

She had the casual Tuesday content, she had the hardcore friday content. It had to critical crafting and the off line harvesting. Miss ya.

All the plastic surgery in the world couldn't save that hoe.

I think I just created this same thread last week :)

You're absolutely right. However, it seems quite a lot of MMO players actually prefer games to worlds, but then again, they're already spoiled for choice.

Our hope is that the emerging kickstarter projects will eventually produce something that works.

No one has mentioned The Repopulation yet? http://www.therepopulation.com/

This one looks like the closest I've seen so far to a game that is putting together the elements of a game I'd like to play. Something more like what I heard UO was like or more like SWG. IE, close to what the original poster was mentioning.

• No levels - you skill up your guns by shooting things (win)
• Fittings - Like the gear you have, keep the gear, change the fittings. (You don't have to dress like you dove into a crayon box)
• Player Built Structures - Have a clan? Build a city and populate it, defend it (win)
• Engagements - critters coming out of the ground to take over a mining spot or your city, kill them. (come on it's a win)

This is an indipendent game, but it DOES NOT look like vapor ware. The videos they've produced look solid and even the manufacturer of the game engine is excited for release. The Repopulation is currently in Alpha, with a beta hopefully in 2013 from what I've heard/read.

Moral to the story: MMO's aren't going to change until we buy something new, Kickstarter is one way for us to put our money where our mouth is. We want it, someone is listening, let's buy into it. Now we actually have the opportunity to do so instead of standing on the soap box. Don't get me wrong, standing on the soap box once in a while is good for you.

Let's tell the game companies that there are some of us that want more out of a game than the Gear Treadmil/Roller Coaster. We're not the most prevalent folks but hey, we have money too.

Bill Murphy hit the nail on the head with this one: The Problem No Ones Talking About

Games just feel empty without at least some systems in place that make them feel more like an online hangout/home and less like a sub up to Diablo Online. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy playing Diablo 3 and Torchlight II, but in an MMO I want more than "Kill, loot, equip" regardless of how challenging the dungeon/mob/boss may be. That's not a world, that's game.

Originally posted by tom_gore

I think I just created this same thread last week :)

You're absolutely right. However, it seems quite a lot of MMO players actually prefer games to worlds, but then again, they're already spoiled for choice.

Our hope is that the emerging kickstarter projects will eventually produce something that works.

And you just said what I was going to say in fewer words *facepalms*

Nice!

Originally posted by nariusseldon

What narrow? In fact, i think my view is more open .. nothing is sacred .. and all possibility (say without a world) should be considered.

What i am arguing is that if certain features (like i am forced to spend 20 min traveling before fighting in a dungeon) do not add fun to me, then i do not want it in my game. It is a feature by feature determination.

No one says atmosphere and story are not important. But i do enjoy the combat and progression first and foremost.

And why do you think i play MMOs and put up with some of the slower aspect of it? That is because i took the whole picture into account. I can't completely get rid of walking if i like the wow classes, right?

Narrow because you always seem to view it as combat + feature, not the feature itself, you talk about travelling in the context of it being that thing that prevents you from doing combat, not about travelling itself (even if it is the worst possible thing we can talk about, travelling is quite uneventful usually :( ).

Dunno, maybe it is a defect, but i do understand people who get the same excitement as you have from killing a monster by mining that rare mineral, respeccing/regearing just so that they can walk in the desert without water, completing that quest, crafting that excellent necklace, trading that recipe, and i want them in my game.

In general, i think people who "endure" the slower aspects of mmos are well cared for atm, we should look after the people who "endure" combat and progression for a change. :)

(in b4 "mmos ARE combat and progression" :) ) 

Flame on!

:)

To bring MMO to the future, we have to stop making land scapes, and start putting down Politics, and Government and Laws and Rules in the games that can be used to govern an Virtual World. Instead of utilizing the same Real World Rules and Laws for an Virtual World that it can't govern.

Having a Virtual Kingdom with a King that does nothing for players, having Guards that doesn't Guard anything, Having Moral Rules of no PKing without any consequences if you do, is Just BullS%it 

When Game Developers start building a Real Virtual Society and allows Gamers to join, thats when the MMO comes to life. 

And it would work for all types of MMO's Fantasy, Sci fi, modern...etc

A couple examples of rules and Laws

1) players character names aren't seen till given 

2) player level aren't known till given

3) player class aren't known till given

4) Laws can be broken with consequences

5) Reputation based questing system

6) Thou shall not get caught when killing other players ( 24 hour account lock )

7) Thou shall not get caught when stealing ( 6 hour account lock )

8) Thou shall pay tribute to Local Kings and Law enforcements to decrease account lock  

And many more that I can't think of atm

When there is a set law and rule for the game, it allows gamers to live in that environment that isn't real life. Unfortunately it seems that almost all the MMO currently in the market, still utilizes the Real Life Laws and rules and morality that have no place in an Virtual World where consequences aren't real, death has no meaning, and everyone is a killer. 

Just to add some clarification, I don't mean to add realism, I mean add rules and laws. So if we can fast travel by portals, make it so Portal usage is part of that world, not based on Reality. If riding Dinosaurs is part of the Norm in that world, make it so it feels part of that world, instead of something unique in our Real world translated into Virtual excitement. 

No need for jobs as well, who wants to work in an Virtual world, so make it so having Fun is the Job. We need to stop trying to combine Real World with the Virtual World. Because Virtual World can become anything, with all kind of rules and laws that is used specifically just for specific Virtual Worlds. While you only get one life in Real World, you get infinite life in Virtual World.

Originally posted by fernetek
This is EXACTLY why I loved RIFT when it first came out. The danger of towns being taken over by monsters was constant, making it so you had to work with players to protect them. I LOVED it. 

My first week of RIFT was like my first week of my very first MMO...ridiculously exciting and engaging. When Freemarch got taken over I was like "WTF IS HAPPENING I DON'T KNOW BUT I LIKE IT!" 

RIFT has some VERY good direction, but the arguement remains the same; it is still defined as a themepark MMO. The community is great (especially the Gaiscoich), but that doesn't change what type of game it is. 

But either way, you are correct sir, and I concur.

I agree 100%

Nothing makes me more sad than to see MMO's DE-EVOLVE.

Back when they just started hitting the market, there were quite a few REALLY WELL DEVELOPED MMO's. Because they took into account the 'idea' of a virtual world, and created them as such. Blizzard was a both a curse and a blessing for the genre, they completely ruined the idea of a virtual world, but at the same time brought MMO's to the forefront, and to the serious masses. Ever since WoW's release, innovative MMO's have gone by the way side, the industry de-evolved to make a buck, which is fucking pathetic and sickening. The most fulfilling part of it, is all of these 'money-maker' games have fucking TANKED HARDCORE. So instead of innovating, yet again they go F2P trying to make money that way - which it has worked, and I like the idea to a certain extent.

MMORPG's in my opinion have always had the potential to evolve into virtual worlds, and be the best games on the market because of aggressive (but not alienating) innovation. I can sympathize with you man, when I was younger, I didn't want to play Mario Bros. multiplayer - the idea of what I was looking for came when I was playing the original Wing Commander, and they wouldn't let me fly from space down to a planet -  I wanted to feel like I lived in that world. Yet to this day the only game that has come remotely close to doing this is EVE and the original SWG.

I can tell you the future of MMORPG's ISN'T MMORPG's, it's MMOWSG's - massively multiplayer online world simulation games. The definition plays on realism, without sacrificing the fun factor of the game. As we watch more and more games go F2P, we will soon a movement towards just making money in games as we play them. Take farming gold for example: IT SUCKS because it takes so long. Imagine simply playing your favorite game and at the end of the day looking at your currency, knowing that you just made that money in real cash having fun playing your game. That is the future of the genre, and the first developer that incorporates this http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1523379957/oculus-rift-step-into-the-game with a real cash economy that DOESN'T suck from the grind like Entropia Universe is not only going to redefine the genre, but more than likely tear Blizzard a new asshole.