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General Discussion Forum » The Pub at MMORPG.COM » We dont want games - we want worlds.

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735 posts found
  jusomdude

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 11/21/06
Posts: 2364

11/18/12 10:58:34 PM#201

First you have to define what makes a game vs a world. Simulations can only be so detailed.

I think you want a simulation, not a game. It's quistionable how fun that can be made. Doing remedial tasks necessary for a simulation may not be fun.

Games these days could use more depth, but I think the amount of work needed to make a world/simulation would go unappreciated by the majority of players, so I think developers think it's not worth their time.

 

 

Even with the more sandboxy games we have today, they still feel really gamey.

I doubt we're gonna see a world simulation anytime soon from any worthwhile developer. I'm sure plenty of indies / hobby developers will attempt it, but those will fail almost guaranteed, or be of poor quality.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20541

11/18/12 11:20:15 PM#202
Originally posted by maccarthur2004
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Onomas
Originally posted by bunnyhopper
Originally posted by Piiritus
Personally I prefer good games because I have one world already where I live in. I don't need more worlds. Just a good game is all I want.

There are already thousands upon thousands of games. Using your line of reasoning you shouldn't want another one of those either.

 

Want just a game, go play a console RPG game. Don't try turning mmorpg's into console games. Mmorpg are meant to be huge with lots of features, social aspects, and much more. Stop trying to reason for dumbing down mmorpg's.

That is the most arrogant and condescending post. Who are you to dictate what players should do? If MMOs are being more game-like, why shouldn't i play it if i like games more than world?

Dumbing down? Making players sit for 20 min boat ride is not dumbing now, it is smarting up. It is trivial to take a boad ride and there is no challenge. Worlds are full of dumb, slow, moment. Don't tell me the need to sit down and eat for 5 min (realistic .. but boring) is challening.

MMORPS are not meant for anything. They are entertaining products and change according to players' need. If the old ideas (like big world and forced social) are not working, why shouldn't something else (lobby games!) be tried?

 

I disagree.

Realistic rides boost strategies, since make the players plan better the position of your forces or a military operation considering the expected time to allys come in help of the enemys or theirs.

I think that this struggle between mmo fans that want "true" mmorpgs and players that think that mmos are "just games" like any other will only ends when a AAA sandbox come and these 2 types of players become finaly separated, each one in your AAA mmo of your preference.

At moment, the nearer of a AAA sandbox mmo to come is Archeage.

 

 

LOl .. listen to yourself grasping for straws.

I was there .. the 20 min boat ride in EQ. It adds NOTHING. What positions of forces of military operations? Are we talking about fantasy MMO or not? There is no military operations in any of the fantasy MMORPG.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20541

11/18/12 11:21:09 PM#203
Originally posted by Interesting

I want to sleep, drink and eat and poop and piss.  I want to see who would go around playing with female avatars.

How do you like that? Sit to piss or shamefully stain your armor.

And races. Whites, Blacks, Asians, etc... Each with its own traits.

 

 

 

Really? NOt even SIMS go that far.

Give me a game. This world sim thing is just silly.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20541

11/18/12 11:27:10 PM#204
Originally posted by jpnz
Originally posted by Onomas


 

/snip

Not arrogant at all. This is mmorpg, not single player, small world, no crafting, no exploration, no content, boring end game, and no social aspect of a console game. Whats arrogant is people that want kotor4 whinning and crying and we end up with SWTOR the most "epic" mmo ever that crashed and burned in a month. Or GW2 thats falling faster than a fat person being pushed out of a plane. Its simple the 2 must be seperated or you get failures. And there have been more than a handful of those lately. All trying to be like single player rpg's.

 

This giant post is basically saying 'This is what an MMO is and shall be!' to other people.

If you can't see why that is arrogant, then you are beyond help.

Exactly. Lots of rant.

In fact, he said "Time to renew the old ways." .. lol. I thought people here want innovation instead of old ideas who are losing popularity.

Have an open mind and accept new features, and new gameplay style in MMOs.

  Onomas

Novice Member

Joined: 7/05/11
Posts: 1160

Sandbox is your only hope for a decent mmo ;)

11/18/12 11:27:35 PM#205

You keep referring to one game out of 2 dozen that didnt have long travel wait times lol. If that is your only arguement, then you are off your rocker.

Let me inform you of some things you obviously are not aware of.

 

Sandbox does not mean the following:

Full loot pvp

open world pvp

no quests

no end content

long travel wait times

forced grouping

 

These are misconceptions, some games have some of these sure. But doesnt mean every sandbox is like that.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20541

11/18/12 11:29:38 PM#206
Originally posted by jusomdude

I doubt we're gonna see a world simulation anytime soon from any worthwhile developer. I'm sure plenty of indies / hobby developers will attempt it, but those will fail almost guaranteed, or be of poor quality.

Because a proper world simulation will have so many un-fun details. Do we really want to tidy our virtual desks, and take out the virtual trash?

MMOs are entertainment products, and they better focus on what people find fun. There seems to be the mistaken notion that the more real a virtual world is, the more fun it is . .. i reject that as sounding good on paper, but not in practice.

Lots of new successful online games (LOL, D3, WOT ...) all found that you don't need a virtual world to have fun ... better focus on a narrow but very well done slice of gameplay.

  Onomas

Novice Member

Joined: 7/05/11
Posts: 1160

Sandbox is your only hope for a decent mmo ;)

11/18/12 11:31:09 PM#207
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by jpnz
Originally posted by Onomas


 

/snip

Not arrogant at all. This is mmorpg, not single player, small world, no crafting, no exploration, no content, boring end game, and no social aspect of a console game. Whats arrogant is people that want kotor4 whinning and crying and we end up with SWTOR the most "epic" mmo ever that crashed and burned in a month. Or GW2 thats falling faster than a fat person being pushed out of a plane. Its simple the 2 must be seperated or you get failures. And there have been more than a handful of those lately. All trying to be like single player rpg's.

 

This giant post is basically saying 'This is what an MMO is and shall be!' to other people.

If you can't see why that is arrogant, then you are beyond help.

Exactly. Lots of rant.

In fact, he said "Time to renew the old ways." .. lol. I thought people here want innovation instead of old ideas who are losing popularity.

Have an open mind and accept new features, and new gameplay style in MMOs.

Yeah we have been and all the games released are crap. If you like these no brainer games, by all means go play them. But dont argue petty things not to make a better mmo. Because the new way is clearly not cutting it. Every mmo released in the past 3 years has died within 3 months of release minus maybe 2. Yeah ok.

New features you say? What new features? MMO's released today have no freaking features lol.

 

You must be a troll because obviously you have over looked the 45 failures of this so called new features and new game play lol.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20541

11/18/12 11:44:47 PM#208
Originally posted by Onomas
 

Yeah we have been and all the games released are crap. If you like these no brainer games, by all means go play them. But dont argue petty things not to make a better mmo. Because the new way is clearly not cutting it. Every mmo released in the past 3 years has died within 3 months of release minus maybe 2. Yeah ok.

New features you say? What new features? MMO's released today have no freaking features lol.

 

You must be a troll because obviously you have over looked the 45 failures of this so called new features and new game play lol.

No new features? LFD/LFR is new. Phasing is new.

Look at WOW. New expansion .. all raid/dungeons on LFD and LFR .. now they are back up to 10M subs.

GW is a success. GW2 is a success. They don't even pretend to need subs.

Died? DCUO, LOTRO, DDO, and many not only are thriving, new content are released this year. How many sandbox MMOs release new content in 2012?

  CreepProphet

Novice Member

Joined: 10/10/09
Posts: 104

A figment of your imagination.

11/19/12 7:53:04 AM#209
Originally posted by nariusseldon
 

Died? DCUO, LOTRO, DDO, and many not only are thriving, new content are released this year. How many sandbox MMOs release new content in 2012?

 

Sandbox games should not have to release new content as often as theme park games.

A sandbox game that has done it's job should give players the tools they need to enjoy gameplay and hopefully create their own content therefore becomming less and less reliant on developers to feed them new content endlessly.

Sandbox games with events similar to rifts, could keep the game interesting without introduction of a new zone or additional raiding content. Having player built defensible structures that could grow over time is another way to keep people logging in to invest in their own content, once again, not content designed by the developers. Letting people focus on trading or transporting goods, defending the transport from other players looking to loot the spoils. That creates constant game play that is not developer driven.

It's all a matter of how the game desingned. A good sandbox game shouldn't have to add another corner to the sandbox to keep people entertained, it should be giving them components with which they can build new swing sets, or the option to upgrade their shovels so they can build bigger sand castles. 

 


Waiting on The Repopulation.

  Jalitan

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/08/06
Posts: 82

11/19/12 8:25:31 AM#210

Worlds that you build and help develop the story line. Check out these two titles that are near their Alpha stage. Support these games if you truely want Worlds.

http://www.greedmonger.com/

http://www.citadelofsorcery.com/

  CreepProphet

Novice Member

Joined: 10/10/09
Posts: 104

A figment of your imagination.

11/19/12 8:39:26 AM#211
Originally posted by Jalitan

Worlds that you build and help develop the story line. Check out these two titles that are near their Alpha statge. Support these games if you truely want Worlds.

http://www.greedmonger.com/

http://www.citadelofsorcery.com/

+  http://www.therepopulation.com/


Waiting on The Repopulation.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20541

11/19/12 12:05:23 PM#212
Originally posted by CreepProphet
Originally posted by nariusseldon
 

Died? DCUO, LOTRO, DDO, and many not only are thriving, new content are released this year. How many sandbox MMOs release new content in 2012?

 

Sandbox games should not have to release new content as often as theme park games.

A sandbox game that has done it's job should give players the tools they need to enjoy gameplay and hopefully create their own content therefore becomming less and less reliant on developers to feed them new content endlessly.

Sandbox games with events similar to rifts, could keep the game interesting without introduction of a new zone or additional raiding content. Having player built defensible structures that could grow over time is another way to keep people logging in to invest in their own content, once again, not content designed by the developers. Letting people focus on trading or transporting goods, defending the transport from other players looking to loot the spoils. That creates constant game play that is not developer driven.

It's all a matter of how the game desingned. A good sandbox game shouldn't have to add another corner to the sandbox to keep people entertained, it should be giving them components with which they can build new swing sets, or the option to upgrade their shovels so they can build bigger sand castles. 

 

That is a cop-out. Look at Eve. How many expansion does it have?

Play a fantasy game without new monsters, items, and locale? And don't tell me let the users create those. 99.9% of user created content is crap. Nothing entertain better (for me) than professional produced stuff.

  maccarthur2004

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/02/12
Posts: 510

11/19/12 12:52:04 PM#213
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by CreepProphet
Originally posted by nariusseldon
 

Died? DCUO, LOTRO, DDO, and many not only are thriving, new content are released this year. How many sandbox MMOs release new content in 2012?

 

Sandbox games should not have to release new content as often as theme park games.

A sandbox game that has done it's job should give players the tools they need to enjoy gameplay and hopefully create their own content therefore becomming less and less reliant on developers to feed them new content endlessly.

Sandbox games with events similar to rifts, could keep the game interesting without introduction of a new zone or additional raiding content. Having player built defensible structures that could grow over time is another way to keep people logging in to invest in their own content, once again, not content designed by the developers. Letting people focus on trading or transporting goods, defending the transport from other players looking to loot the spoils. That creates constant game play that is not developer driven.

It's all a matter of how the game desingned. A good sandbox game shouldn't have to add another corner to the sandbox to keep people entertained, it should be giving them components with which they can build new swing sets, or the option to upgrade their shovels so they can build bigger sand castles. 

 

That is a cop-out. Look at Eve. How many expansion does it have?

Play a fantasy game without new monsters, items, and locale? And don't tell me let the users create those. 99.9% of user created content is crap. Nothing entertain better (for me) than professional produced stuff.

Users dont create AI characters, they create in-game politics, economics, military and social challenges.

"What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4914

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

11/19/12 1:55:27 PM#214

Regarding the whole players create their own story.  To me this is largely bs. 

The stories that individuals tell in sandbox games including eve is, "I started at this time, I got these skills, I joined this clan and then repeated ad nauseum we attacked this outpost, we crafted this item, we attacked this outpost, we defended this outpost, we attacked this traveller..."

That is not a story.  Or rather it may be the literal definition of story, "A statement of events" but there is nothing there that will entertain another person.  It is the weakest form of story there is.

Now if the game let you create more of a backstory, and decide on a plot that can grow and change over time.  That may be interesting but as of today, no Sandboxes do not let you create a story.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20541

11/19/12 2:00:36 PM#215
Originally posted by maccarthur2004
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by CreepProphet
Originally posted by nariusseldon
 

Died? DCUO, LOTRO, DDO, and many not only are thriving, new content are released this year. How many sandbox MMOs release new content in 2012?

 

Sandbox games should not have to release new content as often as theme park games.

A sandbox game that has done it's job should give players the tools they need to enjoy gameplay and hopefully create their own content therefore becomming less and less reliant on developers to feed them new content endlessly.

Sandbox games with events similar to rifts, could keep the game interesting without introduction of a new zone or additional raiding content. Having player built defensible structures that could grow over time is another way to keep people logging in to invest in their own content, once again, not content designed by the developers. Letting people focus on trading or transporting goods, defending the transport from other players looking to loot the spoils. That creates constant game play that is not developer driven.

It's all a matter of how the game desingned. A good sandbox game shouldn't have to add another corner to the sandbox to keep people entertained, it should be giving them components with which they can build new swing sets, or the option to upgrade their shovels so they can build bigger sand castles. 

 

That is a cop-out. Look at Eve. How many expansion does it have?

Play a fantasy game without new monsters, items, and locale? And don't tell me let the users create those. 99.9% of user created content is crap. Nothing entertain better (for me) than professional produced stuff.

Users dont create AI characters, they create in-game politics, economics, military and social challenges.

So the devs still have to build locale, NPCs, skills, and a thousand things. Plus, user created politics, econ, mitiary & social challenges may not be fun & compeling.

Do you really want to make guild (or corp or whatever) dramma (aka politics) as part of your gameplay? I don't.

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 4102

11/19/12 2:23:17 PM#216
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Regarding the whole players create their own story.  To me this is largely bs. 

The stories that individuals tell in sandbox games including eve is, "I started at this time, I got these skills, I joined this clan and then repeated ad nauseum we attacked this outpost, we crafted this item, we attacked this outpost, we defended this outpost, we attacked this traveller..."

That is not a story.  Or rather it may be the literal definition of story, "A statement of events" but there is nothing there that will entertain another person.  It is the weakest form of story there is.

Now if the game let you create more of a backstory, and decide on a plot that can grow and change over time.  That may be interesting but as of today, no Sandboxes do not let you create a story.

Most people suck at storytelling so this is a good thing.

But hey, just like how many avid readers are closet writers, many MMORPG players are closet designers... threads like this encourage some to take a step out of the closet.

Regardless of the title any thread that either has the word "sandbox" or references sandboxy features in the title is really just the same "This is how I would design an MMO" discussion.

Personally, I'm in it for entertainment and profesional story-tellers do it best. As a matter of fact, in all the countless hours I've spent in MMOs the only thing I've seen that players do pretty well is "event creation"... and the ones I'm thinking of were all massive PvP events.

If I have to choose between the realism of house building, the need to eat and drink (and excrete? why do we never get excretion? ) etc. or the technical ability to support 500 of us having an impromptu fight over an objective, I'll choose #2 every time... much higher fun quotient.

  maccarthur2004

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/02/12
Posts: 510

11/19/12 2:43:18 PM#217
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by maccarthur2004
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by CreepProphet
Originally posted by nariusseldon
 

Died? DCUO, LOTRO, DDO, and many not only are thriving, new content are released this year. How many sandbox MMOs release new content in 2012?

 

Sandbox games should not have to release new content as often as theme park games.

A sandbox game that has done it's job should give players the tools they need to enjoy gameplay and hopefully create their own content therefore becomming less and less reliant on developers to feed them new content endlessly.

Sandbox games with events similar to rifts, could keep the game interesting without introduction of a new zone or additional raiding content. Having player built defensible structures that could grow over time is another way to keep people logging in to invest in their own content, once again, not content designed by the developers. Letting people focus on trading or transporting goods, defending the transport from other players looking to loot the spoils. That creates constant game play that is not developer driven.

It's all a matter of how the game desingned. A good sandbox game shouldn't have to add another corner to the sandbox to keep people entertained, it should be giving them components with which they can build new swing sets, or the option to upgrade their shovels so they can build bigger sand castles. 

 

That is a cop-out. Look at Eve. How many expansion does it have?

Play a fantasy game without new monsters, items, and locale? And don't tell me let the users create those. 99.9% of user created content is crap. Nothing entertain better (for me) than professional produced stuff.

Users dont create AI characters, they create in-game politics, economics, military and social challenges.

So the devs still have to build locale, NPCs, skills, and a thousand things. Plus, user created politics, econ, mitiary & social challenges may not be fun & compeling.

I disagree. Player content normally is more complex to handle, challenging and random. AI content in mmos (comparatively with real single-player games) is dull, shallow, boring and repetitive. So, you will consider AI content funnier than player content only if you consider player content so hard to handle that it ceases to be funny to you.

 

 

 

Do you really want to make guild (or corp or whatever) dramma (aka politics) as part of your gameplay?

Yes, please!

 

 

"What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

  Reklaw

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/07/06
Posts: 6168

The adult I am takes care of most things real life. However my inner-child is a GAMER!!

11/19/12 2:44:00 PM#218
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Regarding the whole players create their own story.  To me this is largely bs. 

The stories that individuals tell in sandbox games including eve is, "I started at this time, I got these skills, I joined this clan and then repeated ad nauseum we attacked this outpost, we crafted this item, we attacked this outpost, we defended this outpost, we attacked this traveller..."

That is not a story.  Or rather it may be the literal definition of story, "A statement of events" but there is nothing there that will entertain another person.  It is the weakest form of story there is.

Now if the game let you create more of a backstory, and decide on a plot that can grow and change over time.  That may be interesting but as of today, no Sandboxes do not let you create a story.

Probebly people who experianced Lego/Playmobile/StarWars figurines/GIJoe's/Martel type of toy's understand how one may tell his/her own story as we did with our toy's back then. You know in the inbetween time between Pong and Atari)

Now or atleast  in the past with the more virtual type of MMORPG we're back at our childhood again creating our own story's. Shame Themeparks don't allow for this freedom. And understandeble that those who grew up during mainstream internet might find it hard to graps players own created story in a MMORPG.

So NO it's not BS, it's just that you might not have experianced playing with things where you needed to use your own imagination instead of being told what to do.

Same with your view on EVE, I mean there are countless of story's told and experianced by players/corps. It's just that you might not get them. noting wrong with that really. But just don't say it's BS.

I do agree with having the way a players play's or wants to tell a story would be awesome if it had real impact thru out the gameworld.

But I stand that sandbox creates the oppertunity for a player to create his or her own story.

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4914

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

11/19/12 2:49:48 PM#219
Originally posted by Reklaw
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Regarding the whole players create their own story.  To me this is largely bs. 

The stories that individuals tell in sandbox games including eve is, "I started at this time, I got these skills, I joined this clan and then repeated ad nauseum we attacked this outpost, we crafted this item, we attacked this outpost, we defended this outpost, we attacked this traveller..."

That is not a story.  Or rather it may be the literal definition of story, "A statement of events" but there is nothing there that will entertain another person.  It is the weakest form of story there is.

Now if the game let you create more of a backstory, and decide on a plot that can grow and change over time.  That may be interesting but as of today, no Sandboxes do not let you create a story.

Probebly people who experianced Lego/Playmobile/StarWars figurines/GIJoe's/Martel type of toy's understand how one may tell his/her own story as we did with our toy's back then. Now or atleast with the more virtual type of MMORPG we're back at our childhood again creating our own story's. Shame Themeparks don't allow for this freedom. And understandeble that those who grew up during mainstream internet might find it hard to graps players own created story in a MMORPG.

So NO it's not BS, it's just that you might not have experianced playing with things where you needed to use your own imagination instead of being told what to do.

Same with your view on EVE, I mean there are countless of story's told and experianced by players/corps. It's just that you might not get them. noting wrong with that really. But just don't say it's BS.

I do agree with having the way a players play's or wants to tell a story would be awesome if it had real impact thru out the gameworld.

But I stand that sandbox creates the oppertunity for a player to create his or her own story.

 I did play all those things.  But no you can't do that in MMO's.  With legos we could build anything we want.  With GIJoe we could use the action figures and use anythign eles in our room, backyard, forest, build to enhance that.  We could even alter the toys themselves, make them superheroes if we wanted.

We cannot do that in any MMO to date.  We have very very very limtied ability, if any to alter the world, rules, gameplay.  Everything we do is completely in our imagination and not in the world.  Lego's and action figures started in our imagination and we would translate that into the real world.  MMO's so far don't. 

What I stated about the player stories is exactly what goes on. Oh players might create their own backstory and roleplay something else but you do that in every game including WoW.  The only thing that goes in the gameworld is exactly what I stated, player craft, player attack, player defends.  That isn't a story.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  lizardbones

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10953

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

11/19/12 3:15:56 PM#220


Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by Reklaw

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Regarding the whole players create their own story.  To me this is largely bs.  The stories that individuals tell in sandbox games including eve is, "I started at this time, I got these skills, I joined this clan and then repeated ad nauseum we attacked this outpost, we crafted this item, we attacked this outpost, we defended this outpost, we attacked this traveller..." That is not a story.  Or rather it may be the literal definition of story, "A statement of events" but there is nothing there that will entertain another person.  It is the weakest form of story there is. Now if the game let you create more of a backstory, and decide on a plot that can grow and change over time.  That may be interesting but as of today, no Sandboxes do not let you create a story.
Probebly people who experianced Lego/Playmobile/StarWars figurines/GIJoe's/Martel type of toy's understand how one may tell his/her own story as we did with our toy's back then. Now or atleast with the more virtual type of MMORPG we're back at our childhood again creating our own story's. Shame Themeparks don't allow for this freedom. And understandeble that those who grew up during mainstream internet might find it hard to graps players own created story in a MMORPG. So NO it's not BS, it's just that you might not have experianced playing with things where you needed to use your own imagination instead of being told what to do. Same with your view on EVE, I mean there are countless of story's told and experianced by players/corps. It's just that you might not get them. noting wrong with that really. But just don't say it's BS. I do agree with having the way a players play's or wants to tell a story would be awesome if it had real impact thru out the gameworld. But I stand that sandbox creates the oppertunity for a player to create his or her own story.
 I did play all those things.  But no you can't do that in MMO's.  With legos we could build anything we want.  With GIJoe we could use the action figures and use anythign eles in our room, backyard, forest, build to enhance that.  We could even alter the toys themselves, make them superheroes if we wanted.

We cannot do that in any MMO to date.  We have very very very limtied ability, if any to alter the world, rules, gameplay.  Everything we do is completely in our imagination and not in the world.  Lego's and action figures started in our imagination and we would translate that into the real world.  MMO's so far don't. 

What I stated about the player stories is exactly what goes on. Oh players might create their own backstory and roleplay something else but you do that in every game including WoW.  The only thing that goes in the gameworld is exactly what I stated, player craft, player attack, player defends.  That isn't a story.




This seems true to me. Sure, you can role play in any MMO, and you can create stories within the boundaries of the game, regardless of the game, but there is no MMORPG now that could be related to Legos, Lincoln Logs, Erector Sets or that other wooden toy with a name I can't remember right now.

Champions Online, Star Trek Online and the upcoming NeverWinter would be the closest to creating stories as game content that I can think of. That doesn't mean any of these games have more of a "World" versus a "Story" though. I'm reasonably sure that CO and STO both fall into the Game category, far more than the World category.

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

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